What defines a good Force.

[ForceOfBrokenGlass]

I have 3 questions about force activity.

Yesterday I was playing through episode 1 ultimate with my lv.125 FOnewearl. The 3 who joined were a lv.100 RAmar, a lv.87 HUcaseal, and a lv.125 HUcaseal. I went about my business Jellen/Zalureing the enemies then attacking them with magic (and sometimes my wand) but every time Shifta/Deband would wear off the RAmar made sure to cast it again first. After 2 times of him beating me to the punch, I let him do it for the rest of the game. The only time I would cast Deband is if mine wore off. Nobody complained, I was wondering if they were happy with the Shifta/Deband from the RAmar or if they were secretly muttering at me? With my Jellen/Zalure down his Shifta/Deband was sufficent, nobody would take severe damage or fall constantly. He even beat me to casting Resta, Anti, and used moon atomizers when needed.

1.)If the RAmar wanted to do it so much should I have left it up to him or cast over his Shifta/Deband every time?

I was using my lv.108 FOmar and playing part way through episode 1 with a level 115 RAcast. All I would do is Shifta/Deband then Jellen/Zalure the enemies, then I'd stand there and do nothing untill every monster in the room was dead. Some few minutes later the RAcast said I was a "Good force". Was he kidding?! I was the laziest Force ever! I spent more than half the time standing there and watching him handle the combat. How does only using 5 spells, none of which were attack spells, make me a good force?!

2.)Was I REALLY a good force?!

3.)What do YOU think defines a good force?

Opinions?


(Disclaimer: Usually I don't play the way I did above with my forces I was pushing the envelope in the second case.)



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ForceOfBrokenGlass on 2004-10-10 18:33 ]</font>

[doubletake123]

Well, for that guy you were an amazing force, letting him have all the experiance. Well, correct me if im wrong,but if you have a higher shifta and deband and jellen and zalure doesn't that overpower w/e level techs are used befroehand? beacuase at that high of a force you should have higher tecks than any ramrl.

[Akulamenuri]

1) No, lv30 S&D > lv15 S&D

2) Depends on the situation, if im in the forest and I cast S&D on my teamates and J&Z on my enemies, that will be sufficient in that area. But if it was in the caves and their are flowers around, use Rafoie to disrupt their attacks, a Pan Arms? try to freeze it before it splits, Slimes? split them if they need to be and keep using Gifoie if thier isnt a droid that can drop damage traps. Like I said it depends on the situation as well as the person evaluating.

3) A Force that supports the team to the best of his/her abilities.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akulamenuri on 2004-10-10 19:26 ]</font>

[Nai_Calus]

Unless someone is hunting Pan Arms rares, anyone caught Freezing or Confusing them can die. >_> Too much fucking annoyance.

My idea of a good FO is one who supports full-time and only uses damage techs for tactical reasons or at bosses. Trying to use techs for damage just cancels the HU/RAs and pisses everyone off.

[Neo48]

1: Well, you should take advantage of your low techniques. Fire off some Foies to help out your teammates.

2: I guess if he said you were good, you were good. Mut in my opinion, you could do better by using the above suggestion.

3: A good Force will "share" they're status skills, and do damage to speed the pace of a fight. Sometimes, it should be looked at it this way, "Did the Hunters/Rangers protect the Force well"

Just because you are a FOmarl doesn't mean you have to be a pushover...get in there with some techniques. You deserve EXP as well. FOmarls can take a beating. Mine has over 1000 HP and DFP (Deband). Which is pretty good for a Force at my level.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Neo48 on 2004-10-10 20:37 ]</font>

[K-ne]

I'm in no way qualified to answer 2 or 3, but as far as 1 goes, I act somewhat like the RAmar you described (K/ne's even a RAmar too, lol). Now, I won't cast Shifta/Deband if there's a Force in the party, but I will cast Resta & Anti and use Moon Atomizers as needed. Sometimes it's obviously justified because the Force isn't doing his job, but even if he is I don't think it's a bad idea to try and help out if I can. I dunno, maybe it's just fundamentally wrong to play a quasi-support RAmar. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

edit: reduced "lol"-count (the first step is admitting you have a problem >.>)



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: K-ne on 2004-10-10 21:29 ]</font>

[Drayma]

A good force will get envolved with the melee. Can't you hear a cane swinging away and not think its funny.

[Tycho]

I agree with Ian about what a good FOrce should be like.
If the RAmar pisses you off, nothing's wrong with stopping with support. I do that. xP

[JavaMoon]

Situation 1: I would have overridden the RAmar's support stuff automatically.

Situation 2: No no no no no. XP-hogging arrogant player! Shoot, NO player, regardless of class or race should stand to the side and let others do the kills and take the extra XP.

My main character has always been a FOmarl, so I know what you're talking about. To me, those who only consider FOs to be S/D and J/Z casters are selfish pricks. Just cause a ra-tech might not be as powerful as a HU's mechgun combo or something, doesn't mean that you can't get right in there and take care of some enemies too. The techs are there for a reason: to be used.

Once you touch everything with J/Z and make sure everyone has S/D, you can fight however and whatever you want. If someone's HP looks low, Resta away. Same with status effects and Anti. You're keeping them alive, you're giving them boosts that they can't normally get by themselves....your job is done. Fight on!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: JavaMoon on 2004-10-11 03:02 ]</font>

[Nai_Calus]

The problem with FO tech spam online, JM, is that it's actually more assholish than standing there doing nothing. I'm sorry, if I'm sitting there doing 900 on a Heavy hit to something, I really DON'T want your shitty 300 damage Rafoie you're spamming six times a fucking second cancelling it, because you're just PROLONGING the fight and wasting time. It's not just in c-mode that damage cancel gets irksome.

S'why my FOmar is either pure support or melee. Either I won't get in the way of the HUs' damage at all, or I'll be right there with them doing some freaking REAL damage, and not spamming my 'Banish swings so fast that nobody else's damage registers. XP S'why I hate most FOnewms. They all think they have a right to be lax on support and do nothing but nuke. FOnewearls most of the time aren't much better. Tech spamming FOmar/FOmarls need to die, because their techs are worthless online, especially FOmarls. Newman FOs do more damage with techs, human FOs do more damage with weapons. The difference is that you can only swing a Partisan so fast. XP

J/Z tags. You get your 80% exp, and assuming you're not being a retard and casting it from the Y menu, you'll have it off before the HUs even get there, so no cancel. Make it up at Falz, it's not that hard for a FO to get the kill on her. (Speaking of which, the next person that bitches at me for getting Falz kill dies.)

If all you do is get off that J/Z immediately, keep the S/D renewed, Resta/Anti me when I need it and maybe use the occasional Rafoie/Rabarta for Canabins/Gees that won't come down, congratulations, you're a good support Force. Go ahead and melee, or let off the occasional tech at the opportune moment to get a kill or two. Gods only know why there are so few of you.

[Tycho]

I remember being in a TTF, being on P2 just before Dark Falz, getting stuff out of the bank.
A teammember: "OK. Don't you dare attacking him when he's done his Soul-steal attack. >Team"
Me: "Meh. I just keep spamming Foie, I'll heal you when you need it."
-"Not you, it's not like I'm scared of dyring from Foie or anything. -.-"
Me: "... I feel hurt. T_T Darn you, I'm getting my Club of Laconium and Foie Merge. > <;"



On 2004-10-11 02:59, JavaMoon wrote:

Once you touch everything with J/Z and make sure everyone has S/D, you can fight however and whatever you want. If someone's HP looks low, Resta away. Same with status effects and Anti. You're keeping them alive, you're giving them boosts that they can't normally get by themselves....your job is done. Fight on!



If you do competant damage compared to your team, provided you support as much as you can, your team is broken. They're bad.


Ian-KunX wrote:

They all think they have a right to be lax on support and do nothing but nuke. FOnewearls most of the time aren't much better.


Don't generalize a class by the ability of the people playing them. Stats, tech bonuses and skin have nothing to do with the people you usually see playing them. Shut up, I can do the same about HUmars though. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif
Go ask Adam, Kefka, Ryna or Auracom. I can do a somewhat decent job when I try to.

[Jasam]

Well if you can use s/d/j/z that has to make you better than 25% of the forces online, heal as well, 50% of them.... not that thats hard and its all I ask if i'm not the FO 'cus i'm sick of how hard it is to find one that can do that much.... When and where to use attcks and meele with a FO is a matter of experence and i'm not the best to go on about how.

I have to admit to tech spamming in V.hard with my 97 Fonewerl though...... By the time ive s/d/j/z and restaed my team mates more times than they need, and its taking then hours to empty a room.... I have a habit of getting tech happy.......(dude a party sucks if I have to do that, it shows the point where my patence ends... and thats a lot...)

[Mystil]

On 2004-10-10 20:01, Ian-KunX wrote:
Trying to use techs for damage just cancels the HU/RAs and pisses everyone off.



I think you mean just you. Cause no ones never complains when I do it. And such thing is rather silly be getting mad over. A force isn't very versatile if they can't do both...(support and "damage-support")

The problem with FO tech spam online, JM, is that it's actually more assholish than standing there doing nothing. I'm sorry, if I'm sitting there doing 900 on a Heavy hit to something, I really DON'T want your shitty 300 damage Rafoie you're spamming six times a fucking second cancelling it, because you're just PROLONGING the fight and wasting time. It's not just in c-mode that damage cancel gets irksome.

Now this is a different story. Primarily, zonde series and barta series would be ok to excessivly use, because of thier status effects. The chance of shocking and freezing(and that has a better chance to happen than shock) is too good to pass up. That 900dmg would be a flawless attempt, the monster would just be standing there while you're demolishing it. And for that reason is why I do techs - hence 'damage-support'. FOIE series is boring, and gifoie is best for me, but only when I don't wont to settle for 80% exp all the time.

J/Z tags. You get your 80% exp, and assuming you're not being a retard and casting it from the Y menu

I use it from the Y menu, through manuel tech ordering, they are the first two techs on the list. The speed at which I cast both is no different than the speed of my SD on the button shortkeys, and that's pretty fast. When played like this, you are playing your force to thier upmost potential, and if tech casting slows the time down, your players are slow as hell.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Silhouette on 2004-10-11 10:17 ]</font>

[Gjl]

Why do you have S/D on your shortcut keys and not J/Z? You're going to be doing J/Z a LOT more than S/D, and even if you think you can do it just as fast either way, you don't want to get arthiritus from facking around with the menu every 2 seconds do you?

Just common sense really. Setting up S/D on a shortcut is a huge waste of 2 buttons for a Force since you only need to do it every freakin 10 minutes or whatever.

And if you want to 'damage support' make a melee FO, although that's a little hard for a FOnewearl to do. I'd choose a melee FO over a tech spammer ANY DAY, since most tech spammers are supportless noobs (it's a mindless job, tech spamming - so it's easy to get carried away while forgetting to support), and I've never seen a melee force not do S/D/J/Z because melee forces DEPEND on their own support techs. Melee forces get the job done better because of this, and also because they are at the front line with the hunters who need that Resta and boosts. By the way I'm not judging how you might play. I'm just making a generalisation of what I've experienced online.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gjl on 2004-10-11 10:48 ]</font>

[Sanzo]

As for the RAmar it may have been mere reaction to what was happening. I know a guy who has a "support HUmar" or so it seems from what he does when he plays., my guess is it comes from so much time playing a force type cahracter which he also does at great lenght.

A good force with shifta/deband/jellen/zalure and reast/anit yes, but knowing all techniuqe weaknesses helps too. Definetly use your damge techs they make things go much quicker.

[SUPERLINK2]

I have many beliefs about a good force on PSO....


1. A force should be indepenant, and scarifice Moon atomisers for others.

2. be wise, don't leap into the next room with no TP.

3. Don't hog items! If you find a spell you areadly used, pick it up and give it to another person, instead of selling it.

4. Courage is a big thing, when all teammates are dead, keep the battle up!

[Akulamenuri]

Ive also grown accustomed to using the Y menu for J/Z because when I play my HUmar and I get a photon blast that I need to hold on to, I cast jellen and zalure off the top of my Y menu. On my force I have generally the same setup as I do with my HUmar since they are both melee characters. Only difference is that underneath Jellen and Zalure I have Shifta and Deband. I am still able to cast all my support techniques from the Y menu at the same speed it would take to hit the button on the shortcuts, its just something ive grown accustomed to.

[Alielle]

When I'm playing online as my RAmarl, my primary instincts as a FO kick in if S/D/J/Z isn't cast, etc. It may be that you're a competant FO, but if you don't play in my style, I'll take over. It's an automatic response that has no bearing on what I think of your skills.

That's what might've happened with the RAmar in your team. Maybe his main character is a FO. Don't let it worry you too much.

[Tycho]

On 2004-10-11 10:42, Gjl wrote:

I've never seen a melee force not do S/D/J/Z because melee forces DEPEND on their own support techs. Melee forces get the job done better because of this, and also because they are at the front line with the hunters who need that Resta and boosts. By the way I'm not judging how you might play. I'm just making a generalisation of what I've experienced online.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gjl on 2004-10-11 10:48 ]</font>


Don't you dare forget that. :/

[ForceOfBrokenGlass]

A good force will get envolved with the melee. Can't you hear a cane swinging away and not think its funny.

Sometimes I do with my FOnewearl, but since Shifta only gets her to 800 ATP I only do it as a joke. Most of the time she misses but on a few occasions she got the kill for that 80 damage.
Well if you can use s/d/j/z that has to make you better than 25% of the forces online, heal as well, 50% of them....
Well now I feel like an outcast... Support techs were second nature for me when I got online. Sometimes I'd like to push the envelope a bit and not cast support techs. To my suprise very few cared.
When I'm playing online as my RAmarl, my primary instincts as a FO kick in if S/D/J/Z isn't cast, etc. It may be that you're a competant FO, but if you don't play in my style, I'll take over. It's an automatic response that has no bearing on what I think of your skills.
I usually would cast S/D in the first case but the RAmar would beat me by 10-15 seconds and everybody would take off before I could finish casting. I figured he really wanted to do it and I wasn't going to stop him or complain.
Trying to use techs for damage just cancels the HU/RAs and pisses everyone off.

Honestly I was unaware Techs could damage cancel, In the times when I would start casting attack techs it seemed like they had plenty of time to get attacks in. The only difference is sometimes the monsters wouldn't flinch. I don't normally tech spam because I only have 1 attack tech on hotkeys.

[Ryuko]

Well, I've always played a Support FOmarl. I know many people have congratulated my support, and the following is my setup.

Firstly, Shifta and Deband from the menu. On your 6 shortcut keys, take Resta, Anti and Reverser on R, and Jellen and Zalure on B/A (assuming GC version.) the final space is best taken up by Rabarta, to freeze Delbiters, Sinows etc. when the team has no Android to lay traps.

A good support force will keep the team doing the maximum damage, in the quickest time, with the least deaths. Techniques can add to this, but they should be used sparingly. The only technique that should ever be spammed is Rabarta to freeze, if the teams getting owned by a group of harder enemies.

[Skorpius]

A good support force will keep the team doing the maximum damage, in the quickest time

FOmarl can hurt things too, and if you took reverser, and anti off your custom (they arent used as often) and used your quick tech menu to it's fullest potential (shifta deband and anti at the top, resta and reverser at the bottom, and carried moons), you would be able to hit things for decent damage. Instead of freezing the delsabers, you could be killing them ;o

[Nai_Calus]

Good luck HITTING the Delsabers, though. http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif HUs can have trouble with that. XP

And if you're going to melee, the setup that I find most effective is:

A: Normal Attack
X: Heavy Attack
B: Resta
R+A: Jellen
R+X: Zalure
R+B: Anti

S/D from menu, Ditto reverser and/or moons, Rabarta, Rafoie and Gizonde sorted to top.

It depends on taste, but I wouldn't keep Resta on the secondary pallete, nor would I use it from the menu. You don't want to be in the middle of a nasty room trying to keep your teammates healed... While your Resta button has been wiped out by that PB you need to hold onto for the chain because you STILL get it slowest. XP

Then again, the same thing could be said for the locations of J/Z and your attacks. If you don't mind constantly holding R when you attack, you may want to leave J/Z on the primary, since the team will always need it, and your damage is sacrificable.

But again, personal preference.

[Ryuko]

Yeah - that said, I often use a quick change to put resta on X if I get a PB. But my way saves holding R every time I want to attack. Again though, personal preference. Some people don't like changing customisation in case they press the wrong thing.