Machine percentage discussion.

[Skorpius]

Started here:
http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=100789&forum=1&15

Since there is no clear and absolute, let us share our opinions openly here without going off-topic, and without causing a disrupting scene.

Adding to what was said in that aprticular topic:

I find having Machine eprcentages the least usefull, due to how I see things. Since Machine enemies have higher DFP than most other enemies, you deal less damage, and percentages add less damage to your attacks. What works well is Zalure, causing their DFP to lower greatly, allowing you to attack normally.

It is true that the machine enemies in CCA and Seabed are strong, but the annoying enemies are Native and A.Beast, which is what I choose to eliminate first, thus having percentages for their respective types, and killing them faster.

What are others' opinions on this topic?

[Neith]

For order of attack: Depends on ths situation really- In somewhere like Seabed, I tend to eliminate the bigger, stronger enemies first by any means I can (Sinows, Delbiters and the like)

In an area like Mines (particularly Garanz/Baranz spawns), I can usually get away with ignoring the Garanz and take out the more annoying Canadines first..

As for Machine %'s, I wouldn't bother adding to Machine for a number of reasons:
1) There aren't that many machines.
2) They have high DFP (as said), and I have Zalure.
3) Call me cheap, but the only weapon I use in Ultimate Mines is Mechs, which aren't worth adding %'s to.

I'd rather add to Dark or Native first personally, obviously people will have different opinions on this though.

[Joltox]

No, actually I agree with what's being posted in this topic. I think of it highly useless to add percents to machine on your weapon. The most annoying enemy in the mines are the stupid Gilchichs in Ultimate. The Canabins don't annoy me as much as they do.
However, I do agree that Natives and A.Beasts are the most annoying, especially in Central Control Area.
Stupid monkeys!!! http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_argh.gif
So whenever I see any of these classes, I tend to have my way with them literally. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif
But, when it comes to the order of enemies to destroy first, I eliminate the largest threat and work my way down. Other than that I tend to have a bit of a hostility towards DARK CREATURES!
HOW I LOTHE THEM!!! http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_argh.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Joltox on 2005-07-18 04:36 ]</font>

[Tycho]

Okay, let's see.
Mines is overall a crappy area for rare drops. Episode four does not have machine enemies.
Episode two has Recon and Recobox (which are weak anyway), the Sinows, and Epsilon. That's it.

Sinows are easiest to defeat using guns (in Seabed Megid works even better, the Hunters and Rangers should prioritize killing the high-EDK enemies), to prevent them from warping away. It is generally considered not to be worth it to add percentages to a weapon with 500 or less ATP. The best way to damage Epsilon is by using Demon's.

You want to add machine percentages to your weapons? Sure, go ahead. On Gamecube I concluded it to be the most useless weapon attribute in the game, and episode IV makes it even worse. XP




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tycho on 2005-07-18 06:11 ]</font>

[Hrith]

Name annoying Altered Beasts, please ?

I do not see any.

And if you say "that monster is too strong to add % to its attribute", then what are you gonna add % against? weak monsters that die easily anyway?

Machine is not a good attribute to add % to with PDs or PSs, but A.Beast is even less.
At least there ARE strong Machine monsters.

A.Beast has only 3 strong monsters (maybe 5 with Astark and Merissa A in Ult, but I doubt it), the 3 Meri variants, and Mericarol is only half strong (and with your logic, you would not add % to fight Merikle of Mericus because they are strong).

Machine has: Sinow Red, Garanz, VR Garanz, Sinow Berill, Sinow Spigell, Epsilon (!), Recobox, Sinow Zoa, Sinow Zele. Not mentioning that Gillchich and VR Gillchich are a lot more annoying to take out than Melqueek, Meriltas or Dolmdarl.

And I do hope that Dark has priority over Native, Machine and A.Beast, for anyone >_>

Let me add that you will not boost the % of weapons very often, PSs are hard to come by, and using PDs for that is a total waste.

Edit: please do not use stupid arguments like "Demon's is best for killing Epsilon" or "Megid is best for killing Sinow Zele".

Demon's is the best way to kill any monster, and Megid works on as many Machine monsters than Native, A.Beast or Dark ones. Keep it to a "percent" discussion.

Also, Recobox is not a "weak monster", Recobox has very high DFP and HP, and it is the only way to get rid of Recons, which are extremely annoying creatures, that can OHKO you, slow you down by flying over you, and throw damaging bombs that either deal big damage (for low Lv) or allow other monsters for an opening to combo you (for high Lv).

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kef on 2005-07-18 06:34 ]</font>

[Tycho]

On 2005-07-18 06:25, Kef wrote:

Demon's is the best way to kill any monster, and Megid works on as many Machine monsters than Native, A.Beast or Dark ones. Keep it to a "percent" discussion.

Also, Recobox is not a "weak monster", Recobox has very high DFP and HP, and it is the only way to get rid of Recons, which are extremely annoying creatures, that can OHKO you, slow you down by flying over you, and throw damaging bombs that either deal big damage (for low Lv) or allow other monsters for an opening to combo you (for high Lv).


Demon's is not the best way to kill any monster. You OHK'd Hildelts. Obviously, Demon's would not have been the best way to kill those. Demon's is good against strong non-boss enemies, especially when they have high DFP and at least 100 EDK (and in this case ESP). Epsilon fits this description very well.
Also, why bash the Megid argument? Megid works equally well against Dolmolm as it does against Zele, sure. But weapons do not. It's easier to have the FO Megid the Zele and have the HU/RA get rid of the squid in a second.
Ofcourse Morfos have low EDK too, but there are a lot of good Dark monsters. Sure Recobox has high HP, but it is not as much of a threat as Delbiters and Deldepths. It's easier to walk away from a Recon than it is to run from a Biter or Depth without leaving the room. Also, Recoboxes have low EDK as well. >_>

I forgot about the Machine enemies in Spaceship though, sorry. But still... There are three ABeast bosses (not counting Olga, so Dal Ra Lie, Barba Ray and Gal Gryphon), while the only Machine boss is Vol Opt. But in teams with high level Hunters or Rangers with (Berserk) Needles/Shots or Diska of Bravemans, Vol Opt usually dies quickly.
ABeast has the Meri as AB minibosses, Machine has Epsilon. Epsilon is less common and has worse drops. <_<
... But then again Meri are not immune to freeze. x_x

[Hrith]

On 2005-07-18 11:25, Tycho wrote:
Demon's is not the best way to kill any monster.Demon's works the same on any monster, so it's not a valid argument.

Megid works equally well against Dolmolm as it does against Zele, sure. But weapons do not.
It's easier to have the FO Megid the Zele and have the HU/RA get rid of the squid in a second.Since when? play with a HU/RA more >_> Dolmdarl is annoying to melee, Sinows are easy to shot down. Again, very bad and biased argument.

Sure Recobox has high HP, but it is not as much of a threat as Delbiters and Deldepths.How so? Delbiter cannot OHKO you, Recon can.

It's easier to walk away from a Recon than it is to run from a Biter or Depth without leaving the room. Also, Recoboxes have low EDK as well. >_>Ever seen ONE Recon ? they usually attack in swarm.

There are three A.Beast bossesBosses, lol, bosses are so hard, yeah >_>

But in teams with high level Hunters or Rangers with (Berserk) Needles/Shots or Diska of Bravemans, Vol Opt usually dies quickly.Same for Gal Gryphon and Gol Dragon, even more true for Sil Dragon, Barba Ray, Dal Ra Lie.

[Tycho]

On 2005-07-18 11:51, Kef wrote:

Demon's works the same on any monster, so it's not a valid argument.


Demon's may work the same for all enemies, but the physical attacks we're comparing them to do not. I prefer using Demon's on Epsilon over using it on Bartles. Yes, even though it works equally well on Bartles. Weird huh? >_>

[Saiffy]

I prefer to have 0% in all areas, saves me from arguments like this.

[Mixfortune]

Personal taste.
If you want to boost your already damaging capabilities to focus more on certain types, put it in "weaker" fields.

If you want more of a consistent damage or evening it out somewhat, put it into "stronger" fields.

Or you could try and find out where you're going to be doing runs fairly often and judge from that. Take into consideration the weapons you use, and how well they can be applied to various areas of the game (rifles with percents to things you'd want to snipe, swords and partisans to things you'd want to gather together easily and attack all at once.

That being said, I don't find any percent bad or even necessarily worse, at least to the degree to even matter too much on an overall scale. Depends on what I'd use where and how.

[Blitzkommando]

The percents I like best (other than hit obviously) are whatever came with the weapon in the first place. But in all seriousness, Altered Beasts are well, tame compared to the other three attributes. Astarks included even, are just big buggy Hildebears that don't freeze, shock or megid but simply poison.

Native enemies come in groups, big groups. Occasionally A. Beast types do too but not nearly as many as native. And, like Kef said, most A. Beast are weak anyway. I would rather add, if given the Photon Spheres to do so, to Dark, Native, or Machine first. As all of those have far more deadly enemies than just "OMG MEGIDZ LILY".

But really, I am limited most by what I find my weapons with. Heck, I used my Guilty Light that had 100 Machine more than I thought I would. And it was pretty darn good too. Of course, I also love Mines so I suppose I am biased, but aren't we all?

[Hrith]

Comparing Epsilon to Barble, now. Can we get more ridiculous?

And yes, Blitz, it's all bias, in a way, like Skorp said in the original post. But some arguments are obvious. There are no strong altered beasts, while there are several very strong machines. So the only argument in favour of A.Beast attribute is, like Mix said, if you want to add % to "weaker" monsters, which, in my opinion and experience, is stupid.

[Tycho]

I used Bartle to prove my point it is not always the same as compared to using physical damage, they're not supposed to be equal.
But I guess we agree weapons should have 100/0/0/100/100. ;p

[Skorpius]

On 2005-07-19 02:14, Kef wrote:
And yes, Blitz, it's all bias, in a way, like Skorp said in the original post. But some arguments are obvious. There are no strong altered beasts, while there are several very strong machines. So the only argument in favour of A.Beast attribute is, like Mix said, if you want to add % to "weaker" monsters, which, in my opinion and experience, is stupid.
Are you saying that others' opinions and personal preferences are stupid because they do not match your own?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Skorpius on 2005-07-19 08:49 ]</font>

[Ryna]

On 2005-07-19 08:49, Skorpius wrote:
[quote]
Are you saying that others' opinions and personal preferences are stupid because they do not match your own?


Let's keep this discussion related to Machine percentages, ok?

[Sitka]

"You go to battle with the weapons you have and not with the weapons you wish you had."

or something like that.

Playing BB has given me a much different perspective on %'s and PDs than before. PDs are so much more a commodity to be traded and without piping, the ability to play offline and the inability to have more than 4 characters/section ids, I find that PDs have greater value for trading purposes than for adding %s.

That said, the only two areas that I prefer to focus on %s is on hit and dark. Nothing else is really worth it for me.

Play the game long enough and you're going to get weapons with high hit/good percents for each area/enemy you're likely to face. My bank is now gradually filling up with Demon and Hell weapons with 35-50% hit that may or may not have %'s in other areas. If I get that uber weapon, say Excaliber or Yunchang for example, that's when I would start using those precious PDs/Spheres/Crystals to build up the percents and my focus would be on hit and dark - period.

Any additional pds would be used for items I'm having trouble acquiring or for things like Blue Black Stone for the BKB and such.

[T1K]

Alot of opinions are also influenced by where people "hang their hat". A. Beasts might be weaker enemies, but it just so happens thats where ive made most of my rare runs and where i have amassed most of my exp in the past. I'd rather make quicker kills there...based simply on the amount of time i spend in those certain areas. Same might be said for Person X and their preference for Caves or whatever.

Personally, machine would be the last attribute i would want for any melee weapons other than slicer. (Not that i'd spend spheres on a slicer http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif )

[Saffran]

I've spent my sphere on a slicer (a rainbow batton)

Well, as far as %s go, I want to have at least one good weapon with machine, just to be sure. So Far I have a great God Hand with 45% on hit and machine, it's rather cool against Vol Opt and Epsilon, but in PW4 it's not all that effective. I'd much rather have some Partisan or Slicer with hit and machine... I have a DB with 80% on machine, but I never use it.

A good Handgun with machine can also save the day. It all depends on what you are playing. If you're doing Lost Soul Blade runs....

[EJ]

For me I always do dark, native, and machine since I prefer adding % to those. A.beast I don't see a real reason to add any % unless I found a wep with it already.

[Fanta]

On 2005-07-19 02:38, Tycho wrote:
I used Bartle to prove my point it is not always the same as compared to using physical damage, they're not supposed to be equal.
But I guess we agree weapons should have 100/0/0/100/100. ;p




I was going to say something like that.
Its quite hard to get good % on good weps anyway. The best % wep I have is a Blizzard Gladius (N40%/D30%/H30%) and I dont use it anymore.

[Tycho]

Well, on BB all percentages are addable, so it's only a problem if a weapon you find has AB or MC percentages over 10 already. Or if it has 5 or 10 AB/MC and hit. >_<
I'm just assuming they're going to release MA2v2 again, but for now I'm not going to worry about percentages. Or hunts or levels for that matter.
Is there anyone with access to GC/XB/JP that could do enemy counts for RT? Xl

[Saffran]

Respective Tomorrow will be added soon enough.

All this % talk reminds me of C Mode. I love looking at the % on weapons in C Mode - because there's no way in Hell I'm gonna find that kind of % on a regular run - EVER.

[Longtime_play]

On 2005-07-20 02:00, Tycho wrote:
so it's only a problem if a weapon you find has AB or MC percentages over 10 already. Or if it has 5 or 10 AB/MC and hit. >_<
I'm just assuming they're going to release MA2v2 again.



a typical tycho quote that i have no chance of ever understanding........

[Saiffy]

On 2005-07-20 02:00, Tycho wrote:
Is there anyone with access to GC/XB/JP that could do enemy counts for RT? Xl




I'll get around to it later today maybe, someone will probablly beat me to it though.

Really though, it's not like anybody on USBB can even add percents yet, and even then, it takes so many PDs to be able to add percents...yeah.

[Rydius]

On 2005-07-20 07:09, Saiffwin wrote:
Really though, it's not like anybody on USBB can even add percents yet, and even then, it takes so many PDs to be able to add percents...yeah.


[Offtopic]Dammit.. why do people in the US forget that it covers the EU as well

[ontopic]Machine percentages... Well I find them useful on Xbox/GC versions of PSO since most of the time you'll be fighting within mines and/or control center/seabed/towers where there can be a lot of strong opponents (especially in Ult).
Since the natives in both Ep1 and Ep2 can be classed as 'weak', I tend to aim for 0/100/100/100 since there is no way to up hit% on this version.

As for BB, I'm tempted to put percentages on Native this time because of Episode 4 being a damned sight tougher than Ep1 or Ep2.

So for me it just depends what version you're playing, that determines what you put percentages on.

[Tycho]

Ahh, Ryna contacted me about RT earlier. So I guess everything is covered now, although I still need to make maps and get box counts of of the non-quest EP4 map variations. And get separate enemy counts for all sub-areas of 9-8.

Longtime_Play, by 'AB' and 'MC' I was referring to 'Altered Beast' and 'Machine' percentages. The acronyms were taken from PSO EP III, where they abbreviate the names of cards like 'ABeast Attack' to 'AB Att'.


On 2005-07-21 02:54, Rydius wrote:

[Offtopic]Dammit.. why do people in the US forget that it covers the EU as well

Since the natives in both Ep1 and Ep2 can be classed as 'weak', I tend to aim for 0/100/100/100 since there is no way to up hit% on this version.


I live in the EU, I call it 'BB US' as well. It's just shorter this way, and it isn't like I feel insulted when people say it this way. I doubt anyone that lives in the EU really cares. ;/
... Or should we start calling it iBB instead, like in iRO?

And um, Gibbles and Gi-Gue are Native. The Sil/Gol Dragons as well.

[Longtime_play]

thanks for clearing that up tycho a bit more knowledge to my collection, i also live in the EU.

I Never played ep3........