PDA

View Full Version : An improved argument against cheating.



ADE
Nov 10, 2005, 12:03 AM
Why not? Sure I'm done with BB, but I'm still intrigued by people thinking online cheating is OK.
--------------------------------------------

I just read over an old argument, and noticed how it was going. Basically I would state a fact based on a premise (the premise being the ToS). I would receive responses stating things like "Stop cramming your opinion down our throats."

I got frustrated and didn't know how to respond to such things. Now it's almost two years later, and I've had significant training in philosphy, logic, and reason, and it's time to take the big guns to these cheaters who think there is no difference between "matters of fact" and "matters of opinion."

Suppose the ToS of PSO is true. From that it would follow that any statement made in alignment with it is VALID. Thus, stating that "cheating in PSO is wrong" is NOT an opinion. It is a fact.

Getting angry at someone for pointing out a fact is a shortcoming of the reader, not the writer. Thus, getting angry at him and banning him (which is what happened in the past) is illogical.

I am reminded of Plato's Apology. Socrates, an ancient philospher, was sent to trial on the following charges:

-Corrupting the youth (by teaching them philosophy)
-Not believing in the gods
-Minor crimes such as getting someone to believe a "wrong answer was right"

Socrates basically got his accusors to contradict themselves IN COURT, thus proving their charges to be false, and they STILL F0UND HIM GUILTY.

Think about what happened in the past. A person made a post full of FACTS and people came back at him saying that such statements were making them uncomfortable and causing them to miss out on enjoyment in PSO and on the message boards. The person who stood up for what was right essentially got executed because such a horde of people disagreed with him. That's akin to 99 mathematicians who think that 2+2=5 executing 1 mathematician who thinks that 2+2=4. It just doesn't make sense.

Another point that needs to be deconstructed. Aristotle teaches that a man needs to be balanced. This means that man requires leisure time. If two human beings engage in leisure time by playing games, there are certain rules they follow to maximize their enjoyment of the game. By cheating in an online game, you are increasing your enjoyment of the game whilst decreasing someone else's enjoyment. Thus, you are negatively affecting another person's leisure time, and are harming part of what makes him a "balanced man." Therefore, any inauthentic action towards another human being is ALWAYS WRONG, even if it's under the umbrella of leisure time. Thus, any time anyone here has stated "It's just a game", you may as well have said nothing, because that point does not hold up at all.

Human intellect is naturally drawn to correct answers. When a one uses his mind to find something that's correct, he doesn't stumble past it as if though it were merely another incorrect answer. If one is the MOST APT to find the correct answers by being a balanced individual, then treating others well AT ALL TIMES is part of that balance. Treating others well insures that you will be treated well. But there's more to it than that...

One shouldn't just do the right thing because it will make others do the right thing, since that lowers it to the level of "action-reward." One should embark on a path to discover if being good to others is beneficial even if there is no reward. If man has a conscience, then the answer would be yes. So I guess it's up to you to decide whether or not you have a conscience, and a built in sense of right and wrong. If you DO have that sense, then it becomes necessary to examine all of your actions, be them at work or in leisure time.

PJ
Nov 10, 2005, 12:13 AM
Ok, I don't want to go 50 feet from this whole, "Argument," but I want to point out, you weren't banned for pointing out, "Facts." You were banned for your... how to put this? Unsocial behavior.

ADE
Nov 10, 2005, 01:28 AM
If a mass of people believe an objectively INCORRECT fact and someone points it out, it would naturally follow that they would errorenously label him as unsocial.

Using the above logic, there is no disputing the fact that online cheating is wrong.

So we have our 99 math guys that think 2+2=5 and the one who KNOWS it is 4 points it out, and they get disgusted with him for producing unrest. What would be worse: for him to ignore such a thing and allow them to go on believeing something inocorrect, or to try to help them and explain himself by using simple examples?

What I can't come to understand is if people are disagreeing just for the sake of being spiteful, or if they really DON'T understand the argument. I guess if people just want to be spiteful then there's nothing that I can do. But continuing to stand my ground against spite is not wrong.

I can understand how a young person might not understand the logic behind this because many young people have this impression that "Whatever makes me feel good is OK to do." Heck, I used to be that way. I think it takes some examination that taking inauthentic actions towards others (such as cheating in an online game) causes greater harm than the action itself. For example, it can frustrate people and make them enjoy a fun part of their day a bit less, thus lessening the enjoyment of their day.

To turn around and say "Well if they're getting worried about a game...." Stop. Remember, man needs leisure time. And one man is not qualified to tell another how to spend his leisure time if it is being spent in a virtuous manner. Do not forget this, and do not raise that "It is just a game" argument as a valid point considering it has been disproved.

What I see happening is that I can make any point, and people always return to "It's just a game." They seem to forget that their statement holds no water given Aristotle's parameters. So does this mean everyone here is incapable of keeping two cogniscent thoughts in mind at the same time? If the "It's just a game" argument is invalid (which it is), then all subsequent ethics apply to the game.

I'm sorry if it makes some of you angry to see that you're actually harming others when you think you aren't, but can't you see that I'm trying to be as peaceful about this as possible? Would you please, for the sake of maintaining yourself as a human being, try harder to keep ethics in mind at all times? I would greatly appreciate it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ADE on 2005-11-10 00:10 ]</font>

Delfi
Nov 10, 2005, 03:40 AM
Wow Ade - mathematicians thought that 2+2=5?? <<is this fact or just a made up example by you??

If it is a made up example by you then wouldnt you have been better using the "Christopher Columbus Vs. The Entire Population" argument when they all believed the earth was flat???

That aside now for my views on cheating in PSO.It is wrong all wrong i tell you, and cheaters should be instantly banned for a year or so after all PSO is more a way of life than a game.If you cheat at life, (= kill ppl, steal things, and so on..) you are banned from your freedom by having to have to spend a stint in prison or house arrest.But on the other hand if it was not for the "cheaters" we would never see all the game has to offer - and if it was not for people dissassembling game code - we would not have drop rates or would we???
The last statement is taken from the fact that ppl say they got the drop rates from "the game code"<<their words not mine.

I notice that a lot of people on this site have cheated at some time or another on PSO - so after all is said and done.. just do as i have done - delete the cheaters from your friends list - STOP PLAYING WITH THEM, and only play with ppl who dont like to cheat - or failing that play alone. After all the final choice is YOURS to decide who you play with.

Advice to any cheaters - please dont sit in the lobby and tell everyone daily that ure bored.(ROFL).

ADE
Nov 10, 2005, 06:26 AM
Not trying to necessiarly stop anyone from cheating. I just want them to do it knowing that it is totally wrong. I think some of them don't have a sense of it. So I'm trying to remove their ability to rationalize it out any further.

metatime
Nov 10, 2005, 11:11 AM
I think most people online know what they are doing, there are a few that honestly don't know so educating about whats legit and whats not is important, after that it is not our job to make them legit or not. Some are just so stupid that they try to justify why a hacked item is legit.

I usually use sports as an analogy. Sports are games. They have a set of rules that everyone that is playing in the game must abide by. If they break the rule, then they are punished. Problem with PSO is that there isn't a referee type of person.

Once you agree to those rules, then cheating in turn becomes a fact not an opinion. You kick a soccer ball out you do a throw in, You touch a soccer ball then its a penalty, you hit a tennis ball out of bounds, then your opponent gains a point. No if, and, buts.

TheOneHero
Nov 10, 2005, 11:21 AM
This stopped being an arguement long before you even posted this.

Now it's an obsession.

You gotta ask yourself, who the hell cares anymore? It's a game, and although we've had wonderful memories on it; met some of our best friends in life, you need to let it die.

Saiffy
Nov 10, 2005, 11:45 AM
I'm not going to say cheating is right, or wrong.

I just read over an old argument, and noticed how it was going. Basically I would state a fact based on a premise (the premise being the ToS). I would receive responses stating things like "Stop cramming your opinion down our throats."
We can't help it if that is indeed what you were doing, generally speaking, in matters such as this(Don't even go off with the 2+2 bullshit), if the majority say you're cramming your opinion down their throats, then you must be.

I got frustrated and didn't know how to respond to such things. Now it's almost two years later, and I've had significant training in philosphy, logic, and reason, and it's time to take the big guns to these cheaters who think there is no difference between "matters of fact" and "matters of opinion."
Well, we'll see then as we continue to read this post I guess o:

Suppose the ToS of PSO is true. From that it would follow that any statement made in alignment with it is VALID. Thus, stating that "cheating in PSO is wrong" is NOT an opinion. It is a fact.
It states cheating in PSO is illegal. Far from morally wrong. Now, I'm assuming that you're referring to cheating being morally wrong, so I apologize if I'm assuming wrong.

Getting angry at someone for pointing out a fact is a shortcoming of the reader, not the writer. Thus, getting angry at him and banning him (which is what happened in the past) is illogical.
It may be fact, but there's a difference between legally wrong, and morally wrong. I'd say stealing is wrong, but if you need to feed your family(Ah, the classis scenario), it's not any less wrong in the eyes of the law, but morally it's more accepted.

I am reminded of Plato's Apology. Socrates, an ancient philospher, was sent to trial on the following charges:

-Corrupting the youth (by teaching them philosophy)
-Not believing in the gods
-Minor crimes such as getting someone to believe a "wrong answer was right"

Socrates basically got his accusors to contradict themselves IN COURT, thus proving their charges to be false, and they STILL F0UND HIM GUILTY.
All I am saying on this, is human beings have evolved. Yes, arguably he shouldn't have been found guilty. But humans have learned from the mistakes of the past. You can't honestly compare something that happened thousands of years ago to what happened on a forum for a game. Especially since this wasn't the reason you were banned.

Think about what happened in the past. A person made a post full of FACTS and people came back at him saying that such statements were making them uncomfortable and causing them to miss out on enjoyment in PSO and on the message boards. The person who stood up for what was right essentially got executed because such a horde of people disagreed with him. That's akin to 99 mathematicians who think that 2+2=5 executing 1 mathematician who thinks that 2+2=4. It just doesn't make sense.
You can't compare morals to solid mathimaticals. You never can, never will, and this is getting more than a little old. 2+2 always equals 4. But cheating doesn't always equal wrong.(This goes for any other 'illegal' act)

Another point that needs to be deconstructed. Aristotle teaches that a man needs to be balanced. This means that man requires leisure time. If two human beings engage in leisure time by playing games, there are certain rules they follow to maximize their enjoyment of the game. By cheating in an online game, you are increasing your enjoyment of the game whilst decreasing someone else's enjoyment. Thus, you are negatively affecting another person's leisure time, and are harming part of what makes him a "balanced man." Therefore, any inauthentic action towards another human being is ALWAYS WRONG, even if it's under the umbrella of leisure time. Thus, any time anyone here has stated "It's just a game", you may as well have said nothing, because that point does not hold up at all.
You may follow Aristotle's teachings, not everyone does because you do, therefor that entire paragraph is like 'you may as well have said nothing, because the point does not hold up at all.'

Human intellect is naturally drawn to correct answers. When a one uses his mind to find something that's correct, he doesn't stumble past it as if though it were merely another incorrect answer. If one is the MOST APT to find the correct answers by being a balanced individual, then treating others well AT ALL TIMES is part of that balance. Treating others well insures that you will be treated well. But there's more to it than that...
Humans aren't always right. Far from it.

One shouldn't just do the right thing because it will make others do the right thing, since that lowers it to the level of "action-reward." One should embark on a path to discover if being good to others is beneficial even if there is no reward. If man has a conscience, then the answer would be yes. So I guess it's up to you to decide whether or not you have a conscience, and a built in sense of right and wrong. If you DO have that sense, then it becomes necessary to examine all of your actions, be them at work or in leisure time.
Nice guys finish last, that doesn't mean I'm not going to be nice, but you do have to earn my respect and do something to trigger me to do something nice for you. You simply cannot say I have no conscience because I'll do nothing about cheating in PSO. At the end of the day, you may have heard this before, but it's just a game. It was never anything else, and it never will be anything else.

Ahem, moving on.

What I can't come to understand is if people are disagreeing just for the sake of being spiteful, or if they really DON'T understand the argument. I guess if people just want to be spiteful then there's nothing that I can do. But continuing to stand my ground against spite is not wrong.
People have opinions, if you're opinion conflicts with there own, of course they're gonna argue it. You're thinking that everyone is either with you, or against you, and it simply isn't so.

I can understand how a young person might not understand the logic behind this because many young people have this impression that "Whatever makes me feel good is OK to do." Heck, I used to be that way. I think it takes some examination that taking inauthentic actions towards others (such as cheating in an online game) causes greater harm than the action itself. For example, it can frustrate people and make them enjoy a fun part of their day a bit less, thus lessening the enjoyment of their day.

To turn around and say "Well if they're getting worried about a game...." Stop. Remember, man needs leisure time. And one man is not qualified to tell another how to spend his leisure time if it is being spent in a virtuous manner. Do not forget this, and do not raise that "It is just a game" argument as a valid point considering it has been disproved.

What I see happening is that I can make any point, and people always return to "It's just a game." They seem to forget that their statement holds no water given Aristotle's parameters. So does this mean everyone here is incapable of keeping two cogniscent thoughts in mind at the same time? If the "It's just a game" argument is invalid (which it is), then all subsequent ethics apply to the game.
Like before, not everyone follows those teachings, so everything here is null.(That is to say, null to those who do not follow those teachings)


I'm sorry if it makes some of you angry to see that you're actually harming others when you think you aren't, but can't you see that I'm trying to be as peaceful about this as possible? Would you please, for the sake of maintaining yourself as a human being, try harder to keep ethics in mind at all times? I would greatly appreciate it.
You can't ignore what other people are saying because you want us to feel bad for you. People in these arguments have always been calm, collective, and intellegent about it. If you play with fire, prepare to get burned. And making this topic in the first place started a fire, you can't just run away from it because "you're right, we're wrong", then come back a few months later and start a new fire.

EDIT: digigram wins.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Saiffy on 2005-11-10 08:47 ]</font>

digigram
Nov 10, 2005, 11:45 AM
Hell, I haven't played PSO in a year and I'm sick of the discussion. I was sick of it the moment I ever played it. Tried to argue it, tried to understand why people cheated, now i'm more irritated with those that can't get it through their head that it will never change.

It's not even worth fighting for, unless you were in a tragic accident rendering your mobility to nothing and cannot get out of bed for the rest of your life. Then I could see it as even barely a serious matter, due to not being really capable of entertaining yourself in any other way. You don't cheat, they do, oh well, it's a shitty game, get past it and understand that you are better than them (in game).

In time, with no abbrasion towards them, you will slowly find that the old cheaters give birth to new, more ignorant ones. In the end, when the servers are long gone, you'll find that user made servers will have the exact same amount of people playing legitimately or cheating.

Seriously, this arguement is so god damned old, it didn't help then, and it won't help now. It isn't like you hold some form of "logic" or a "philosophy" that they are unaware of that unlocks a door in their mind exposing them to how evil a thing they are doing. They are doing it, because they don't give a shit. It's as simple as that, you can't make sense of someone that gets off on particular sexual fantasies other than a branch in the tree of their lives that you will never know or experience in the same way.

You play normal.
They cheat.
If you fight against them influencing you to cheat, they will do the exact same thing.

Solstis
Nov 10, 2005, 11:57 AM
Hmm... ADE, you weren't banned for telling the truth, but sorta beating people over the head with it. I agreed with you (mostly), but found that you were a little abusive to other forum members.

Well, here's a few points:

Point 1: Cheating on PSO is illegal.

Point 2: Cheating disrupts the functions of PSO

Point 3: Cheating exists in the real world, as either an escape from a bad situation or an escape.

Point 4: Cheating in the real world can be considered "functional" as it serves a purpose (people in prison provide an example to say: hey, don't do that).

Point 5: People do not cheat on PSO to gain equality (to me, the only valid reason to commit any legal act), and instead for "fun."

Point 6: Even if you cheat only because other people are doing it, you are still committing an illegal act; supposedly to level the playing field.

Point 7: There are, or were enough legitimiate players to balance the playing field if everyone had not jumped the cheating/duped item bandwagon. There was a balance at one point, but then the young-teen population decided that cheating would give them the edge that they "need." Boom, explosion of FSODers, Junior "Hackers," and dupes. I really didn't care, and ended up using duped items.

Point 8: The legit community was so arrogant that it refused to accept those (in many cases) that used dupes - they most likely, if allowed to play with legits, would have stopped using them eventually altogether. Rejection = further acception of alternative means = further cheating.

Point 9: Well, cheaters are "wrong," legits are "wrong," this argument will go no where, and I'm hungry.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Solstis on 2005-11-10 08:58 ]</font>

Maridia
Nov 10, 2005, 12:15 PM
Yeah, digi's got the right idea.

Ade, it isn't that they don't understand your logic when you spell it out like that, it really is that they don't care. "Oooh, my 'cheating' is going against the ToS~ OH NO~~~" They don't care. If it isn't going to make them go to jail or be banned, they won't do it. People who brought the Elenor mag online learned quickly not to do it again. They learn just how much they can do without it being a problem and stay within line. They. Don't. Care. So I'm sorry that people are fighting your logic, because yes, it makes perfect sense. However, it isn't going to influence anybody who is already cheating not to. That's just how it's going to be.

ABDUR101
Nov 10, 2005, 12:38 PM
I got frustrated and didn't know how to respond to such things. Now it's almost two years later, and I've had significant training in philosphy, logic, and reason, and it's time to take the big guns to these cheaters who think there is no difference between "matters of fact" and "matters of opinion."


Dood, really, there are better things in life to think and roll over your mind than this inane shit.

Drop it and move on, shit, I can guarantee most of the people who you originally dredged on about cheating, are off doing better things with their life.

There are, by-far, better things to do with ones time than try to renew an arguement which the vast majority of people have very much so stopped caring about the first year of PSO's release on the DC.

Point being, if Sonic Team doesn't give a shit enough to crack down on it, or take steps to stop it from occuring, I doubt most others do either.

Live in the now!

ADE
Nov 10, 2005, 01:30 PM
See Abdur, the thing about philosophy is that one who studies it takes delight in truth no matter how much time he wastes coming to it.

What could be more excellent than finding what's true? Plus, you act as if though this argument is only useful in PSO. You could take these concepts and apply them to just about anything.

This is a very worthwhile discussion. With PSO coming to a close, people will either move on to PSU or stop playing. People who cheated all throughout it obviously live by some attitude "If there is an environment in which there is no good nor bad consequences, then I can do whatever I want."

Do we really want a bunch of people running around who only do the right thing because it's more "convenient" for them? Shouldn't we desire a society in which people WANT to do the right thing?

The same goes for the Plato's Apology example. Another poster stated that the information isn't pertinent, and that people have moved on from such poor judgement. Another person told me not to use that "2+2=4" bullshit or something like that.

People still misjudge cases all of the time because they lack reason. Also, the philosophical and scientific world acknowledges ethics as a theoretical science, which means it is beleived there are absolutes. This would mean that actual science of ethics would work just like math. It would mean that a person who is in alignment with what is correct will know how to ascertain each situation and deal with it accordingly.

Basically, a person who desires to know truth (which is what man naturally does) will strive to be ethical. The only thing that sets us apart from animals is this desire to find truth. Thus, a human being that sinks to the level of an animal actually places himself BELOW animals because he had a chance to exist in a higher manner.

See this is great stuff. It opens up wonderful discussion. It doesn't matter if it's on an old game or a new one. The game is still being played by people. Also, I imagine that there is at least one person who would read my improved argument and say "Hey that was more convincing than the old argument, I SHOULD stop cheating." If that is the case, then some good came of it.

Even if nobody changed from the argument, it may be an affirmation to those who are going about online gaming in the right way.

Saying that it's BS and that nobody is going to listen is about as baseless as me saying that "This is the best argument ever and EVERYONE is going to listen" don't you think?


Like before, not everyone follows those teachings, so everything here is null.

You would concede, however, that the teachings were reached through the use of logic and reason? This would make them indisputable.

Saying that "When people ignore this stuff it is null" is just like saying "If someone ignores the laws of physics then they don't apply." Things like that don't occur.

The purpose was to go back and make this more digestable because I feel I could have done a better job on the first argument. I want to help people by using my field of study (which people think is useless because we study Ancient Greece, etc.). I want to show that the theoretical science of ethics still applies today. And that when a person stumbles across an answer that is "ethically correct" he has a faculty in his mind that lets him know.

There's a difference between disagreeing with someone and providing valid reasons and simply saying "nobody is going to listen to this." Last time I checked, you weren't able to read the future. If you can go back and diagram the argument and find some sort of problem with it, then please do so. Really, the argument logically stems from these two givens:

1. Suppose that man has some faculty in him that allows him to find what's correct...
2. Ethics is a theoretical science...

...with those two givens, the rest of the argument is valid. The background information that sets up ethics as a theoretical science have never been disproved short of someone saying "I don't believe in that." And you know darn well when you find a correct answer that your mind holds on to it, so don't even try to argue that point http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ADE on 2005-11-10 10:37 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ADE on 2005-11-10 10:40 ]</font>

ABDUR101
Nov 10, 2005, 01:36 PM
So you honestly think that using all of this "wisdom" you've acquired over two years is well-spent on a damn rant on a PSO forum?

Nevermind ADE, forgot who I was talking to for a moment. Continue.

ADE
Nov 10, 2005, 01:38 PM
Yeah I do Abdur. Hey don't worry I do plenty of other stuff. I simply find online ethics intriguing. PSO is a perfect example of a community where there is a split in ethical structure. So why not dig in if one finds it interesting?

Also, if you think about it, this isn't really a "rant." Ranting implies venting oneself over an angry topic. This topic is probably more related to cheating than any other current topic on the Cheaters board. Considering how dead the Cheaters board is, I don't see why it was so harmful to leave it there. Heaven fobid someone actually clicks on it and learns something, I guess.

Cheating on PSO is old, I'm not gonna lie. However, if you consider the topic [that outlines online cheating more thoroughly than any other topic] a dead horse, then you might as well move the entire cheaters board to the rant forum.

Please don't view this as disrespectful, I just think there is a clear discrepency here.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ADE on 2005-11-10 10:51 ]</font>

Hrith
Nov 10, 2005, 06:39 PM
Reading you was a lot more pleasant that expected, Ade.

Still, you have to concede that just because people do not follow's Aristotle's teachings does not mean they lack logic or reason.

That would be like saying Descartes is a better philosopher than Pascal, it makes no sense.

You are a shrewd thinker, but your intellectual capacities do not allow you to fathom every individual, far from it.

tbmes11
Nov 10, 2005, 07:02 PM
I figure I would put in my 2 cent on this topic.

If everyone cheated on PSO than I guarentee no one would think the game was anyfun. A low character players needs to be able to look at a high level player and work hard to get there. Working to get there makes you feel good for all the hard work you have done. I encourage all the legit player to help new players stay legit.

I know people will always cheat on PSO, since there is no penality for cheating. As long as the rest of us and the new players don't cheat and stoop to their level we'll all still be able to play and enjoy the game. Let them (cheaters) pay for cheating by not being able to experience the fun this game has to offer by forcing them to play alone or with other cheats.

Nai_Calus
Nov 10, 2005, 07:40 PM
People cheat on PSO. Too fucking bad. Get over it.

End of discussion. :D

geewj
Nov 10, 2005, 07:51 PM
You were banned for flamming people. Like you said, you got frustrated and didn't know how to respond. No ones fault but your own, so take some responsiblity for it and stop being a drama queen.

Mystil
Nov 10, 2005, 09:18 PM
On 2005-11-10 08:21, TheOneHero wrote:
This stopped being an arguement long before you even posted this.

Now it's an obsession.

You gotta ask yourself, who the hell cares anymore? It's a game, and although we've had wonderful memories on it; met some of our best friends in life, you need to let it die.


I know I don't care anymore. All my shit are d00pes. Sue me!

ADE
Nov 10, 2005, 11:20 PM
Yeah, I did flame people. But if you state something simply using logic and people still don't listen, it's hard to let them be. Hey, I'm not doing it now. So just chill.

geewj
Nov 11, 2005, 12:40 AM
On 2005-11-10 20:20, ADE wrote:
Yeah, I did flame people. But if you state something simply using logic and people still don't listen, it's hard to let them be. Hey, I'm not doing it now. So just chill.



"Getting angry at someone for pointing out a fact is a shortcoming of the reader, not the writer. Thus, getting angry at him and banning him (which is what happened in the past) is illogical."

Well then pick a story.

KaFKa
Nov 11, 2005, 09:32 AM
ADE... Every time you see a HUmar with a TJ sword. Every time an RAcaseal blows away entire rooms with a Guld Millia, every time you see a FO wielding Heavens Punisher, ask yourself.

Who is truly cheapening their game experience. Who is the one that isn't worth a grain of salt.

Answer that question. And after you answer that question, lean back, smile, and laugh.

I remember when you got banned (I think.) You are worse now than your were then. Put it behind you. If PSO is becoming your only escape for RL shit, find another game, find another hobby, find another something. Because getting caught up in trivial shit like duping in PSO isnt healthy.

*watches his words go in one ear and out the other*

Sharkyland
Nov 11, 2005, 04:32 PM
It would be nice if everyone followed a moral standpoint, but everyone follows their own philosophy on how the world revolves. Maybe if they (them or us) were educated a bit more, then it would work...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sharkyland on 2005-11-11 13:33 ]</font>

tbmes11
Nov 11, 2005, 08:16 PM
On 2005-11-11 06:32, KaFKa wrote:
ADE... Every time you see a HUmar with a TJ sword. Every time an RAcaseal blows away entire rooms with a Guld Millia, every time you see a FO wielding Heavens Punisher, ask yourself.

Who is truly cheapening their game experience. Who is the one that isn't worth a grain of salt.

Answer that question. And after you answer that question, lean back, smile, and laugh.

I remember when you got banned (I think.) You are worse now than your were then. Put it behind you. If PSO is becoming your only escape for RL shit, find another game, find another hobby, find another something. Because getting caught up in trivial shit like duping in PSO isnt healthy.

*watches his words go in one ear and out the other*



This is a great point!

I say if you don't like something people your playing with than don't play with them. If you want to play with legit only players you can find me on GC.

HAYABUSA-FMW-
Nov 12, 2005, 09:19 AM
You have admitted that you have gone about what you want to do here the wrong way.

Most people after getting banned, don't get to come back.

Banning is an ultimatum of punishment for this forum correct?

Did you admit to any wrongdoing before the banning?

Can you agree that your opinions and help to the community don't belong in every thread, especially ones that were going just fine without your presence?

Can you agree that not everyone is going to agree with you?

Can you agree that not everyone will change for you?

Can you agree that not everyone will believe you?

Can you agree that not everyone likes authority(especially not the target audience you're looking at pertaining to stereootypical cheating- teenagers who rebel against any and all authority) no matter how it is presented to them?

Can you agree to follow the rules of the forum just like you follow the ST Terms of Service aggreement?

Do you realize not everyone will follow every rule and every stipulation?

Do you know the correct way to go about helping ST and the PSO community in any way?

Do you have a set goal in mind of how much you want to help, but see that you can only help soo much and are frustrated with it?

Do you understand worth pertaining to yourself and not only your worth TO OTHERS?
-To continue a previous discussion here if I may; You said some of us should be ashamed that we hold one player in high regard over drop rates/random findings. You do realize that nearly everyone else did not hold the player in high regard over his item findings, right? We simply discussed the pictures of the findings. Cool items, wish I could get that one day and take a picture of it, it looks cool, it shows that these rare items CAN BE FOUND, etc.

If you are unwilling to agree with any of the above questions then you must go back to the drawing board yet again, if this is your way of improving yourself.

If its any indication of anything, AT ALL, these threads should serve a great purpose to you, that a community is filled with different viewpoints on ANY AND ALL subjects.

Do not throw (some)one's words away as meaningless just because you have a differing view, a better explanation, more education, and in plain terms didn't like what they said.

Don't ignore people lest you continue on, being ignored yourself.

Not everything is in a book. Life experience trumps full blown education in many cases. "Experience preffered"- says the classified job ad.

ADE
Nov 12, 2005, 04:06 PM
Do not throw (some)one's words away as meaningless just because you have a differing view, a better explanation, more education, and in plain terms didn't like what they said.


If their opinion is just some opinion they randomly picked, I will not respect it very much.

If it is an opinion backed up by reasoning (which almost nobody does) then I will have some respect for it.

If I show how it's never right to harm another human being using the same logic and reasoning that Socrates did (which is completely indisputable), and some other person simply says "Well I don't believe in that," who's opinion is more carefully fleshed out? Not all opinions are equal. It is entirely possible to sincerely believe INCORRECT things.

Saiffy
Nov 12, 2005, 04:47 PM
It is by my own, Ryan Andrew Blank's philosophy, that "harming another person" in an online game is ok.

You can flash a name around, it's the same shit.

ABDUR101
Nov 12, 2005, 05:10 PM
Getting angry at someone for pointing out a fact is a shortcoming of the reader, not the writer.


You weren't pointing out facts, you were chucking your ideals down everyone's throat and not shoving off and ignoring what others were doing.

You were the incessant little step-child that nit-picks their siblings because they weren't following mommy and daddy's word to the letter.

And in the time since then, you haven't changed, it doesn't matter how much you throw around Socrates or any philosophical bullshit, you're still the same whining poster as before, except worse, because you're still the only one that gives enough of a damn to keep the arguement going when the majority of people here stopped caring long ago.



Thus, getting angry at him and banning him (which is what happened in the past) is illogical.

Oh, and I would'nt call a decision made by the entire staff as "illogical", considering you were allowed back by someone's good graces.

For shit's sake, someone lock this. I can't beleive it's made it this far.

eRUPT
Nov 15, 2005, 01:24 AM
I've unlocked this topic ADE. Just to tell you, should you PM a mod. Annoy a mod. Annoy me. Act like a moron again (Which apparantly in your years roaming the dying earth you can't cease to be). I will ban you. I will ip ban you AGAIN. I will delete all your petty emails you send me for a year straight. I will laugh at the face of stupidity once again.

Thanks for playing. Do attempt to make this happen.

Your old friend.

eRUPT.