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Parn
Nov 10, 2005, 09:54 PM
Some of you probably haven't paid much attention to the ongoing dispute over Digital "Rights" Management, but if this particular situation doesn't help some of you wake up to it, nothing probably will. Sony's latest method of CD copy protection (which is completely asinine... I'll listen to my own music on my terms as a consumer, thanks) installs software into your computer without your consent or knowledge. This is a violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.

Why is this significant? Well, here's the key excerpt from the Gamespot article:

"The software in this case, designed to prevent a user from copying a CD more than twice, was created by First 4 Internet. It is called a "rootkit," and once a CD is loaded onto a computer, a watchdog program is installed, and then hides itself deep in the core of the operating system.

That's where the trouble begins, first uncovered by programmer and blogger Mark Russinovich. A side effect of the software is that it can be used to hide any files with a certain string of characters in the file name. Already reports have surfaced of World of Warcraft hackers using the program to make their cheats impossible for Blizzard's Warden anti-cheating program to detect."

This of course, leads to impossible-to-detect cheating in other online games as well. It is certainly possible that a remedy will come about, but it doesn't negate the fact that this is a monumental blunder on Sony's part. I can't help but wonder if Sonic Team is uh... awake and paying attention, because Gameguard sure isn't going to cut it here.

Full Gamespot article is here (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6139586.html), and a ZDNet article regarding Sony's tools being used to create malicious software here (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-5944643.html). Those who want to read up on the technical mumbo jumbo on Sony's method should go here (http://www.sysinternals.com/blog/2005/10/sony-rootkits-and-digital-rights.html).

GaijinPUnch
Nov 10, 2005, 10:13 PM
I don't see how that affects any server-side saving game. Any good hack could work from anywhere on the PC, meaning a scan by the server is useless. The only way to stop cheating is

1: Good code (fewer exploits = fewer ways to cheat)
2: Monitor online activity
3: DO SOMETHING when you find people cheating
4: Patch software

When someone in PSO is caught cheating, it's not b/c of some file on their computer... there needs to be logging, and lots of it at that, and people that actually sift throug the logs to look for strange activity.

The sad thing is, any CS dork that knows even elementary Perl could probably write a program to monitor logs... a good programmer could monitor the servers as it happens. There's gotta be at least one good programmer in ST... right?

Kano-Okami
Nov 10, 2005, 10:18 PM
Ironic,
Seeing as the original code was to prevent exploitation...yet it gives rise to further abuse.
Sony's shot istelf in the foot.

Parn
Nov 10, 2005, 10:21 PM
GaijinPunch, not everything is handled server-side. World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy XI, and other MMORPGs whom all have data stored server-side can all be cheated on. There are loopholes with everything. This predicament simply opens up a whole new world of cheating and malicious software.

Kano-Okami
Nov 10, 2005, 10:21 PM
In the article, it says Sony released a patch to reveal the hidden program, and has also sent the info about it to antivirus companies, to further remove the problematic software.

Kano-Okami
Nov 10, 2005, 10:31 PM
..So has WoW done anything about this situation, so far?

Parn
Nov 10, 2005, 10:34 PM
They're undoubtedly working to address the issue. For their sake, hope they fix things before too much damage is done.

Edit: Took a look... they don't say much, but one of the GM's just uh... reinforced their stance on cheating on their official forums (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=5730999&p=1&tmp=1#post5730999). Seems the gamers are fairly unaware of what's going on.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Parn on 2005-11-10 19:43 ]</font>

Kano-Okami
Nov 10, 2005, 10:44 PM
I'm assuming that the patch that exposes the hidden software only works for the computer containing the data.
If WoW were to spread the patch as a routine update, it could eliminate the problem..
..in theory.

vox3om
Nov 10, 2005, 10:47 PM
I'm really confused...can someone explain this to me in simple terms? please?

Kano-Okami
Nov 10, 2005, 10:56 PM
On 2005-11-10 19:47, vox3om wrote:
I'm really confused...can someone explain this to me in simple terms? please?


The best way to put it is..

Sony made a cd copy blocker
The blocker hides in the computer,
the blocker is undetected.
people manipulate the blocker and use it for cheats.
The cheats go undetected, oppose to getting detected on the spot.

Thats pretty much how its working, more or less.

vox3om
Nov 10, 2005, 11:50 PM
so now we should worry because if PSU has these programs the game could just be hacked to bits...?

Kano-Okami
Nov 10, 2005, 11:55 PM
..more or less.
I'm just hoping that everyone else is ignorant of the situation and that sony patches up the pandora's box they've released.

vox3om
Nov 11, 2005, 12:04 AM
well since the game is almost ready to be released, do you think that since these lawsuits have come out on them, they may have to postpon the release of the game so that they can get rid of that hidden software?

GaijinPUnch
Nov 11, 2005, 12:49 AM
Parn: I understand what you're saying, but my point is -- a good cheat detecting system should detect activities AS it happens... not from scanning the clients computer.

This is not hard to do, but that means a lot of code needs to reside on the servers, and the server software needs to be very robust -- not the client. (The plus side is, you're not at the mercy of a crappy console w/ no hard drive to patch). Hackers are tricking the server application into thinking something is okay. The system needs to know when something is a cheat. The developer then needs to patch the SERVER accordingly, and hopefully eliminate the problem. This of course requires better software design than PSO has ever offered. The original server software is really just meant to match players and hasn't evolved that much. They tried to patch the servers on the GC and what happens? All the legit players lose their items or more. I think the first signs of cheating PSU will spell out the fate of the next 5 years (or however long PSU lasts), b/c ST has proven that they don't mind recoding w/ the same bugs 4 or 5 times. O_o

I don't think that's very hard, but even with the most robust of servers, theyr'e still going to hire SOMEONE to monitor/act on the situation. College students in Japan are cheap. They could easily pay a team of 5 a total hourly rate of 5,000 yen per hour and at least monitor a large portion of the activity. I also think them following up reports from players would work. It's a bit post-WWII McCarthiest crap, but oh,well.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: GaijinPUnch on 2005-11-10 21:50 ]</font>

Zarcon
Nov 11, 2005, 12:49 AM
Ah, I think you're misunderstanding vox3om.
Basically, Sony put this program on their music CDs.
This program hides in your computer and can't be detected if you use the music CD.
People have taken this program and edited it to make hacks for games.
These hacks can't be detected by scanners.

That's the problem.

Anyway, Sony has just been digging a deeper and deeper grave for themselves these days. I just hope this gets fixed up before it causes too much damage.

Zarcon
Nov 11, 2005, 12:55 AM
Well, hope they encode their packets well then because it doesn't matter how good your code is if they just send normal looking packets to do certain things. You could, for instance, send a packet that says your character just spoke to the weapons store NPC and access the store from anywhere that way. The only real way to catch this is have people watching or have tightly encoded packets.

...if my memory of how packets work is correct anyway.

_Tek_
Nov 11, 2005, 01:18 AM
The cheating will happen.

Blitzkommando
Nov 11, 2005, 01:31 AM
Aww, so Sony's resorted to a variation of 'spyware'. Not exactly sending signals or data, the fact it is non-consensual installation is my greater concern here. While cheating is bad, having a company violate my privacy by installing a program without my knowledge is rather alarming.

GaijinPUnch
Nov 11, 2005, 06:30 AM
Zarcon: That's generally how it happens. Then again, you need to be relatively good to cheat then... not just any script kiddie could do it. You'd have to write a program that can not only grab the packets, but send them as well. Evem of the packets aren't encrypted, it would still take a lot of studying b/c you'd have to be able to read the packet -- I've never bothered to look b/c I'm not so good on the development side, but it's different types of packets have different headers, and of course different format themselves. Very tedious finding out what bit means what, where each field ends, etc. I had to pick through some stuff like this at work and I had the system specks. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Rion772
Nov 12, 2005, 09:10 AM
So we should expect to see tons of cheaters in PSU?

Isn't this like cheating to cheat...stupid cheaters.

eXo
Nov 13, 2005, 11:49 PM
Im pretty sure that this issue will be addressed

PrinceBrightstar
Nov 14, 2005, 04:36 AM
Make an OSX version that is separate from other servers, Problem = SOLVED

Seriously, with mactels on the way, there's no reason not to at this point.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jonathan_F on 2005-11-14 01:37 ]</font>

tank1
Nov 14, 2005, 09:56 AM
Aslong as games exist and people are trying to have fun playing them then fucktard hacking bastards will exist to.

OdinTyler
Nov 14, 2005, 02:33 PM
The game's not even out yet & theres all this info about what may or will happen. As much as I dont want to hear about hacking, Im glad its being mentioned. How many times has a game been played for awhile before hacking just comes up out of nowhere. Then, it becomes a lingering problem til someone 'tries' to do something about it. Given all I just read here, hopefully some steps will begin to be carried out. I never expect a totally hack-free server, given how some may act. However, if they cant keep something hack-free, at least keep those who do it away from us. That & companies & clients need to step up to the plate & be responsible for their respective networks or get the hell off the net.

_Tek_
Nov 14, 2005, 02:46 PM
Cheating or not, we can't even get a friendly community anyway(so many legit/cheat/racism flame wars), so why not just give up now?

We just have to deal with it.

PhotonCat
Nov 14, 2005, 04:28 PM
Not that I'm for it, but, cheating is always gonna be around.
You are just disapointing yourself if you believe that Sega is really gonna stop all cheating and PSU is gonna be hack-free.

I would love if Sega would take better control of it and lessen the ammount of hacking, but we can only hope.
But I'm not expecting any miracles. Although I'd like to be wrong.

As for that Sony thing... Sony are fools.
You can't stop piracy either - it's always gonna be around as well for ever.

Rion772
Nov 14, 2005, 05:25 PM
Too bad hackers wouldn't just stop...their mostly frowned upon, too bad they don't get the hint that the majority of us hate/dislike cheating. I wish it would stop...too bad it won't.

Sinue_v2
Nov 14, 2005, 07:00 PM
too bad they don't get the hint that the majority of us hate/dislike cheating.

That's actually the incentive for many of them.

You're going to run into dickheads in this world - it's inevitable.. and they've been around since the dawn of the human species. The only thing that's different now is that they have computers and know how to use them.

OdinTyler
Nov 14, 2005, 10:34 PM
True. I have to agree with alot of what is said here. If someone wants to ruin the game for themselves, thats their personal choice. However, when theyre interfering with other players or causing disruptions on the servers (or in connection, forcing admins to shut down servers to amend problems), its just gotta stop. I dont think anyone here expects PSU (or any online game for that matter) to be hack-free. The best we can do is hope that companies smarten up & take the proper precautions or at least work diligently in keeping it to a barely tolerable minimum. Companies want to constantly emphasize to we the players that online gaming is the present & the future, but, if stuff like this gets out of hand as it is or worse, what kind of message are you sending to the players?

Rion772
Nov 15, 2005, 06:33 AM
I've cheated before, but I don't go around bragging about all the shit I have (that is hacked) to all the other players like I actually earned it. When I've cheated it's been small things, but I've only done it after I beat the game and not online, that's right I can honestly say I've never cheated online. I've cheated in MH but never went online with that character, I wouldn't want to piss off my fellow players. It's EXTREMELY stupid to cheat like most people do because most people just cheat right away to get the best stuff that all of us actually work for and they just stroll through the game and act like they did it by themselves and without the help of cheap codes. It's quite pathetic.

tank1
Nov 15, 2005, 07:22 AM
To true Rion it makes you wonder why some people even bother buying games sometimes.

OdinTyler
Nov 15, 2005, 11:52 AM
Most ppl are impatient & dont have the balls to try to earn anything in the game. Its truly sad. Most ppl couldnt handle an RPG (or many other types of games) if they tried, without cheating. Its all in how you view the game. If you view it as a challenge to overcome & you know theres the potential for you alone to beat it, stop being lazy & do it your damn self!

Sinue_v2
Nov 15, 2005, 04:27 PM
I think one of the fundamental problems is, that too many people view videogames as entertainment. Granted, they are a form of it - but many people who play videogames aren't in it to really push themselves or try to beat it. They're just in there to waste time, like they would be if they were watching a movie or listening to music.

So to them, cheating is alright - because it keeps them entertained. Putting effort into a game, would be like work... and that's not what they're after. IMO, those kind of people should seriously re-evaluate the reasons WHY they're playing games in the first place... but whatever. It's not my choice to make, even if I have to deal with the concequences while online.

F-o-x
Nov 15, 2005, 04:43 PM
You guys are right. People view videogames in different lights. To me, in a game like PSO, the challenge is half of the fun. Starting out is hard but once you put a little time in and work at it you become really powerful. And the fact that I did it all on my own makes it that much more rewarding.

_Tek_
Nov 15, 2005, 09:38 PM
Learn to co-exist, watch Casshern!