decisions, decisions. which mmo?

[Jehosaphaty]

now that christmas has come and gone ive got some moolah that im trying to figure out how to spend and im think of playing an mmo, but im not sure which one to try. ive been reading reviews, checking different games out, but i was curious if any of you guys had any suggestions whether personally or second-hand. thanks for any help.

[Dek]

I would definately recommend Guild Wars. Has some very nice game elements that allow you to customize your character however you want, such as the ability to have two professions per character. Has lots of stuff for both PvE and PvP (and when you get to PvP all skills that you unlocked in PvE mode are available in PvP seeing that your character is at Max level IIRC).

Of course, the major downside, as Watashiwa mentioned here (http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=106446&forum=9&16) is that the characters can only go up to level 20 for the time being. When the next chapter of the story (a.k.a. expansion) is released, more monsters, areas, items, and (possibly) a new level cap will be introduced. Also, buying the new chapters isn't required whatsoever, as your fellow guild members can still visit you when you're still in Chapter One (the current game right now).

Also, no monthly fee whatsoever, which is nice.

But if you want something more sci-fi, I was actually going to recommend EVE or Star Wars: Galaxies. Heard some really good things about EVE, and the Galaxies NGE (New Game Experience) is around $20-30 if you go to the right places.

Problem about SW:G's New Game Experience is that there were a lot of complaints from Galaxies veterans that were made about how easier/more simplified the overall game experience became. At first, you were able to pick from over 37 Star Wars races (Gungans, Wookies, etc.) and (almost) whatever profession you wanted. Now, it's down to 11 character classes (Force Learner, Smuggler, Imperial Officer, Bounty Hunter, etc). With the all of the improvements (as well as the most recent expansion, The Trials of Obi-Wan), there has been lots of praise for the game in general (as well as the complaints, so consider it "in the middle" :wacko ). I plan to try it out since I got a 10 day trial from PC Gamer

just me two cents

[eXo]

(1) World Of Warcraft
To me WoW is currently the best overall MMORPG on the market.The grapghics are breathe taking the music is sweet.not to mention that the game is just plain fun and addicting.

Pro's
(1)Game of the year
(2)Massive world, always something to do,great
graphic's experience is one of a kind.
(3)Always ton's of people online

Con's
(1)You may become violent when asked to stop playing,
(2)$14.99 a month to play http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_confused.gif
(3)World can be confusing at time's
(4)When on a P vs P server contested territory
can be a pain in the A$$.

WoW Review http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/worldofwarcraft/review.html?q=wow

(2) Final Fantasy XI
Square Enix has went main stream with there flag ship rpg series and contrary to what alot of people may say its not that bad of an idea or game afterall.

Pro's
(1)It's final fantasy enough said, and everything that you have grown to love about FF is there from the cute little chocobo's to just about every job class in the franchise's history.

(2)Unlike alot of mmorpg's when you create an character you are not stuck with that job.Exampleif you name yourself rydia become a black mage,once you unlock summonor you can just talk to your mog and poof you are Summonor Rydia.

(3)Game can be pretty fun!!!
Sony is always working on improving the game

Con's

(1)Other's playing have small mind's for some reason everyone, expect's for you to have a certain subjob and certain gear,kill's the freedom a little bit

(2)People are not as helpful if it's not directly benefitting them,although alot are http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif

(3)All major accomplishment's require a party to achieve,limits breaks and artifact gear can feel impossible to obtain at time's.

Final Fantasy XI Review
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/finalfantasy11/review.html

Guild War's
Im not sure of what to think about this one i had it started off pretty fun, job system is a bit to whacky for me and fun factor deteriorated quite fast.

Pro's
(1)Big advantage it's FREE
(2)You can solo

Con's
(1)you can solo but with the exception of being in town the game feel's lonly like its not ever a MMORPG
(2)Ask someone else just not my type of game.

I hope that this helped im going to get the link's to official reviews so that you can make a better decision.


Guild War's Review
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/guildwars/review.html

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: eXo on 2006-01-01 13:05 ]</font>

[Eihwaz]

Even though I don't play any MMOs, I'd say try out Guild Wars. You can play it online for free, and it's supposedly free of a lot of the bullshit you get with most MMOs.

[Neith]

Guild Wars
Pros:
+ No online fees
+ Large playerbase
+ Free-roaming
+ Henchmen for soloing
+ Overall, a decent community
+ Expansions to be released roughly every 6-9 months- apparently similar in size to the original game
+ Do not have to buy expansions to keep playing

Cons:
- Level cap is currently only Lv20
- Fairly limited character customization
- Some elitists who demand you use certain skills
- Most later areas are impossible to solo, even with Henchmen.
- Not a 'true' MMORPG- Once outside a town area, you are alone, unless you party up inside town.

I'd certainly recommend this, the free online play is a massive plus.

Id also recommend City of Heroes, I play that occasionally when I come across some money http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif That's surprising good to play too, if cheesy superheroes are more your thing http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: UrikoBB3 on 2006-01-01 13:43 ]</font>

[Jehosaphaty]

thanks for the feedback yall. lots of different points to keep in mind and i appreciate the help. uriko--i saw city of heros and almost picked it up, but decided to do a little research first. alas, with basketball i dont have a ton of time to play so i might stay away from wow simply because of the monthly cost vs. time ive got to actually play. thanks again.

[ABDUR101]

It really depends how long your attention span is, whether you'll be playing with friends or just randomly grouping with people, what you like to do in-game, etc.

With games like WoW, it's a fun and addicting game, there's alot of stuff to see and do, but just like RF-Online and numerous others, it's just so cookie-cutter to me anymore that once you learn the game mechanics, you realise you've played the same damn thing before.

Thus, why I'm still into EVE Online after over a year, and I play it pretty much every day. There are no 'classes' in EVE, shit, my character is able to do everything from heavy combat in numerous types of ships(you train skills to use new ships, equipment and weapon types, but skill training is based on your attributes and not 'grinding', so it's all time-based).

You can play solo, gang with random people, join player corporations/start your own, and it's a nice split of PvE and PvP depending on the security status of the system you're in(lower security space has better rewards, but at the risk of being openly attacked).

Very open ended game, you can be anything and everything, from an industrial trader that makes any of the equipment ingame(weapons, ammo, equipment, ships), a combat pilot that can be on either side of the law(someone who hunts pirates, or a space pirate that openly kills whoever, or even a mercenary).

As well, it's about $15 a month, but you get free everything. They patch tons of stuff that crops up, they release content updates that include new in-game items of all kinds(ships, skills, weapons, equipment; there was just a major release of a content patch that included 23 new ships and tons of new things), as well, free expansion packs.(One is coming up this month or next)

So, go download the two-week free trial and see what it's like anyway.

[watashiwa]

On 2006-01-01 12:51, eXo wrote:
Guild War's

Con's
(1)you can solo but with the exception of being in town the game feel's lonly like its not ever a MMORPG


.. because Guild Wars is not an MMORPG.

BTW, I recommend World of Warcraft highly.

[Kent]

Guild Wars is just a bad game, overall. :/

Honestly, it's not even worth the monthly fee for it... >_>

[watashiwa]

On 2006-01-01 21:41, Kent wrote:
Guild Wars is just a bad game, overall. :/

Honestly, it's not even worth the monthly fee for it... >_>



I'm not sure if it's because you haven't played Guild Wars or if you're just being sarcastic... because, uh, Guild Wars doesn't even have a monthly fee. You only buy the box and that's it. Online play is free.

Plus, I disagree with you about it being a bad game. There is limited things to do after hitting 20, but that's probably it's only downfall.

[RuneLateralus]

World Of WarCraft easily. So much to do, easy to get into, and it one game that actually does things right (I am looking at you FFXI). And with the expansion that is coming out, it looks like so much good content will be coming up.

[WrathofGOD]

Guild Wars is primarily a PvP game. The PvE portion of the game is pretty fun, the first time through. But after that, really the only reason to do it is to unlock skills/items/runes for PvP.

[Neith]

I disagree with Guild Wars being primarily PvP. When you create a character, you choose between a 'Roleplay' character (Known as Player vs Environment or PvE), or PvP character.

With a PvE character, you can PvP a lot if you want, or never. (well, you have to once in the game, but after that, I've never been in a PvP match, being a PvE player)

So, Guild Wars is what you want it to be. You want to play PvP all day? Sure, make a PvP character, or go to the arenas as your PvE character if you want. Not a fan of PvP combat? There's plenty to do as far as missions/skills etc go.

I think the name 'Guild Wars' makes it sound like it revolves around PvP, which isn't necessarily true. Yeah, the big players/teams PvP all the time, and collect favour of the gods, or fame, but PvP isn't the be-all and end-all of the game.

The main downside of the game, as far as I'm concerned is the level cap. Lv20 isn't very high- hell, I don't play often, and I'm Lv15.., but hopefully a new level cap will be introduced in Chapter Two.

[eXo]

On 2006-01-01 21:41, Kent wrote:
Guild Wars is just a bad game, overall. :/

Honestly, it's not even worth the monthly fee for it... >_>


I agree im not a big fan of guild war's and there may not be any online fee, but this is one of those rare instances where the term you get what you pay for, feel's appropiate http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[Ancient]

The whole idea behind Guild Wars low level cap was that the game makers wanted all areas of the game to be available to casual gamers. You'll hit the cap before you're half way through the game, if you do every quest, sooner if you grind. And you will probobly find the bestest weapon you need about 3 quarters through. That might only add up to about 20 hours or so. What keeps you going after that is attaining new skills and fine tuning your character.
In the later portions of the game enemies are level 30+, and you've got only 8 buddies you can bring along to help you. This requires you to have solid teamwork with your party, since there is no "Grind and come back" metality here. Thats why Guild Wars has been compared to card based games so much. The emphasis is more on knowing your characters every subtlety, and what skills to use when, to defeat advisaries who are every bit as strong or stronger than you. Its a total rush when you get into a good party and things are clicking.
So if you like grinding (and thats okay if you do, I do sometimes too) then I wouldnt recomend Guild Wars, no. But if you want an accessable game, with a good community, fast a furious battles, and nice graphics, try it out. Its free online for pete's sake.

[eXo]

On 2006-01-01 20:14, watashiwa wrote:


On 2006-01-01 12:51, eXo wrote:
Guild War's

Con's
(1)you can solo but with the exception of being in town the game feel's lonly like its not ever a MMORPG


.. because Guild Wars is not an MMORPG.



Thank the heavens's because after playing it i can see why it's not

[Jehosaphaty]

On 2006-01-01 14:09, ABDUR101 wrote:
So, go download the two-week free trial and see what it's like anyway.



i downloaded eve's client, but how do i acess the two-week free trial part? granted, i didnt have much time or look that hard to find that info last night, but i still didnt see it.

guild wars sounds interesting, and ive some friends who are big wow fans. we'll see. again, thanks for all the perspectives, theyre a nice help.

[ABDUR101]

On 2006-01-02 09:38, Jehosaphaty wrote:
i downloaded eve's client, but how do i acess the two-week free trial part? granted, i didnt have much time or look that hard to find that info last night, but i still didnt see it.

guild wars sounds interesting, and ive some friends who are big wow fans. we'll see. again, thanks for all the perspectives, theyre a nice help.


Hmm, actually, I'll need your email address so I can send a two-week trial membership. I'm not finding the two-week trial readily available for just anyone, the only way I know how to do it is through the buddy-program they offer that allows subscribers to send it out. =

[Link00seven]

Hey Abdur, not to be a burden, but I checked the specs and it looks like a good game that'll actually run on my PC. If you could spare one of those two week things for me too, i'd appricaite it. If not, no biggie.

As for my recommendation of a MMORPG -- I would say World of Warcraft. It's a bit pricey per month, but its just got so much to do, its got nice graphics/audio, and its overall just a fun experience with a fairly nice community.

I currently dont have a subscription ($15/mo is a lot right now...) but I plan on getting back on it soon to do some RPing and regular PvE.

[watashiwa]

If there's anyone going onto WoW or planning to reroll an RP Horde, go to Feathermoon server. =x

I don't really RP and only joined that server 'cuz a couple of my friends play there, but could always use some more Horde brothers and sisters.

.. I'd try to help you in any way that I could.

[Mixfortune]

WoW is nice as far as the "doing right on what MMO's do wrong" mentality for a good majority of the game. Grouping is not required and yet you're still part of a world, and it doesn't feel like grinding for the most part.

I say for the most part because the current downside to WoW is that post-60 (max level), there's a switch of focus to end game raiding content requiring 40man groups and a fair amount of time devotion. Casuals at the moment tend to be stuff with reputation grinding and such. Probably a good indicator of just how difficult it can be to make good solid casual end game content in the world of MMOs.

Granted, Blizzard's supposedly working more back on casual content after a flow of raiding content. Hopefully it's just a cycle (game needing raid content so focused on that for a bit, then will focus on casual content for a bit, etc.)

[Jehosaphaty]

ive spent oh, probably about an hour on eve with periodic breaks spent on apps and such, but wow, talk about engaging. the level of content is ridiculous. the game looks great and reminds me of tachyon: the fringe a bit. on a snap judgement, its looking really nice. confusing though, for a new player. there is a ton of info to sift through.

[ABDUR101]

On 2006-01-02 14:22, Jehosaphaty wrote:
ive spent oh, probably about an hour on eve with periodic breaks spent on apps and such, but wow, talk about engaging. the level of content is ridiculous. the game looks great and reminds me of tachyon: the fringe a bit. on a snap judgement, its looking really nice. confusing though, for a new player. there is a ton of info to sift through.


Play it in a window, I stopped playing it full-screen a long time ago.

*edit*
Here's an actual gameplay footage video, accompanied by JunkieXL. Hopefully the link works for everyone else, but if not, ah well.

http://myeve.eve-online.com/download/videos/Default.asp?a=download&vid=143

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ABDUR101 on 2006-01-02 15:19 ]</font>

[Jehosaphaty]

how exactly do i play it in a window? ugh. i sound like a computers for dummys posterchild.


edit: nice video

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jehosaphaty on 2006-01-02 16:14 ]</font>

[ABDUR101]

On 2006-01-02 16:14, Jehosaphaty wrote:
how exactly do i play it in a window? ugh. i sound like a computers for dummys posterchild.


edit: nice video


Press Escape anywhere in-game, it will bring up the options window, which has a graphics tab, you'll choose resolution settings and whether you want it in a window or fullscreen. You can also change the color and transperency of the UI from there. As well as audio and shortcut tabs. Make sure you click "Close" and not "Exit Game" when you make your changes.

[Kent]

On 2006-01-01 22:16, watashiwa wrote:


On 2006-01-01 21:41, Kent wrote:
Guild Wars is just a bad game, overall. :/

Honestly, it's not even worth the monthly fee for it... >_>



I'm not sure if it's because you haven't played Guild Wars or if you're just being sarcastic... because, uh, Guild Wars doesn't even have a monthly fee. You only buy the box and that's it. Online play is free.

Plus, I disagree with you about it being a bad game. There is limited things to do after hitting 20, but that's probably it's only downfall.



Oh, I have played Guild Wars, don't get me wrong. I just feel it's a relatively badly designed game, in itself. From what I've seen and heard, the "no monthly fees" thing is one of the very few reasons people even bother with the game, and I can see why, after having played it, myself.

I'd much rather pay monthly for a game that's entertaining, as well as having lots of content, than get a free game with little content, and isn't very enjoyable.

[Dre_o]

Perhaps I sound foolish, perhaps not, but saying that I don't know EXACTLY what a MMO is (only the basic concept),

I suggest waiting for PSU. Yes, it takes time and patience and I know I'm probably wrong on some kind of technicality but that is what I think.

PSU, that is what my money will be for.

[Kent]

Massively-Mutliplayer Online Game.

It's a type of game that allows thousands of people to be simultaneously playing at the same time (per game server), in a persistant world. They usually have a real economy, regular updates, and a very balanced gameplay system, that is kept in check by the developers. Well, the good ones have that last one. :/

Some types of games try to be MMO, such as Guild Wars, and some just plain aren't, but are commonly mistaken as MMOs, such as Diablo, PSO, and PSU. The Diablo-style games require a players to create or join a game, a whole instance of the game's world, just to be able to play, whereas with an MMO, everyone's on the same field.

[Neith]

Right, I'm going to say my opinion on this.

Guild Wars is NOT trying to be an MMORPG. It is NOT an MMORPG, since once you're outside the outposts, you cannot see other PC's. Only by partying up in town can you see PC's outside town. Also, monthly fees are commonplace in the MMO genre now.

As for there not being much content, i'd disagree on that for several reasons:
1) Having played other NCSoft games WITH monthly fees (Lineage II, City of Heroes), Guild Wars does have less content. There is justifyable reasoning for this though: Since Guild Wars has no online fees, the way the developers make money is through sale of the actual game. By releasing expansions (Chapters), the developers make their money, and continue providing new content, and free online play on ArenaNet servers. Since there's a monthly fee for other MMO's, it's plain obvious you'd get more content. When Guild Wars gets Chapter Two, a whole lot more content will be released.

2) If you look on the Guild Wars official site at the game updates section, you'll notice that there is frequent patching, and frequent updates to the game. There's just actually been a massive 'Wintersday' event going on, which is just finishing up. From that event alone, there are two massive quests, special Xmas items to collect, plus a huge competition between two of the game's gods, which allowed players to gain more unique items. On top of that, there's been a special variant of PvP- snowball fights http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

I reckon we should try and stay on topic, providing the Original Poster with recommendations for MMO's (Guild Wars may not be one, but has a really good playerbase, and free play must be a bonus), instead of launching attacks on other MMO's. Hell, if we all did that, there'd be a massive fan war.

So, back on topic, my recommendations would be Guild Wars, City of Heroes, and Lineage II. Lineage II is a very nicely put together game, awesome graphics for a MMO, massive playerbase. The only things I didn't like too much were the slightly sluggish (at times) combat system, and the PvP system (someone can freely kill you anywhere, you can lose EXP, and drop items sometimes, IIRC). You got a lot of people abusing that, and PK'ing everyone they saw. I think any game with such a free PvP system would suffer the same problem though- and that aside, it is still a very, very good game, it just wasn't for me personally.

[Cross]

Oh, I have played Guild Wars, don't get me wrong. I just feel it's a relatively badly designed game, in itself. From what I've seen and heard, the "no monthly fees" thing is one of the very few reasons people even bother with the game, and I can see why, after having played it, myself.

Uhh, relative to what? The design of Guild Wars is light years ahead of traditional MMOs like EverQuest, WoW, FFXI, etc, and the PvP is absolutely unparalleled in any online RPG, ever; easily on par with competitive FPS and RTS games.

Put it against a game with braindead, slow-paced, tedious gameplay like FFXI and I'd pay $50/month for Guild Wars even if FFXI were free.

The only thing it doesn't have is a long and boring level grind, but if all you want out of a video game is to do boring, repetitive things to watch numbers go up, save yourself the money and buy a calculator. The x^2 button gives you all the experience of most MMOs at a fraction of the time and cost.

Edit for On-Topic: The only MMOs seriously worth playing are:
If you like games with a ton of freedom, but also huge risks of losing a lot of stuff at once, EVE Online is the best current one, and Ultima Online if you don't mind playing an ancient game (and likely on a server running the old-style rules which can take some hunting).
If you really like games that are simple level grinds, World of Warcraft or City of Villains. WoW's appeal is mostly in tons of quests, if you don't mind that 99% of the quests are "Kill X of Y enemy", "Collect X amount of Y item", or "Walk from point A to point B". CoV's main draw is that there's almost no loot, and the powers that you get can be fun to use just because they're stylish; it's like an MMO version of a beat-em-up like Streets of Rage.
Guild Wars is there for if you hate level grinding and item grinding and if you like to play a game because it has good gameplay, rather than because you can gain more levels or more items.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cross on 2006-01-03 07:13 ]</font>

[Jehosaphaty]

interesting take on both sides of guild wars. either way, dont let your personal feelings get out of check. thanks.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jehosaphaty on 2006-01-03 11:24 ]</font>

[Kent]

On 2006-01-03 06:20, Cross wrote:

Oh, I have played Guild Wars, don't get me wrong. I just feel it's a relatively badly designed game, in itself. From what I've seen and heard, the "no monthly fees" thing is one of the very few reasons people even bother with the game, and I can see why, after having played it, myself.

Uhh, relative to what? The design of Guild Wars is light years ahead of traditional MMOs like EverQuest, WoW, FFXI, etc, and the PvP is absolutely unparalleled in any online RPG, ever; easily on par with competitive FPS and RTS games.

...Because everyone plays online games for the PvP factor?

If anything, Guild Wars is light years behind, due to its reliance on people who just want PvP, and severe lack of content and depth, otherwise.

Put it against a game with braindead, slow-paced, tedious gameplay like FFXI and I'd pay $50/month for Guild Wars even if FFXI were free.

If you can honestly call FFXI braindead, then you've never played it. :/

There's a lot more thinking and strategy involved in fighting enemies in FFXI than Guild Wars has displayed.

In Guild Wars, you just go out, and kill random creatures on your way to finishing a quest for whatever, and if you find a group of enemies that are too tough, you just die and suffer the nigh-complete lack of death penalty. Tn FFXI, however, if you just want to kill enemies for experience, you need a tactical and (at least somewhat) intelligent party, just to be able to survive. If you accidentally get an enemy that's too tough for your party, or you try and do a boss fight somewhere, you're going to fail that fight miserably, if you just go in, and try to fight as simply as Guild Wars (point, click, use some abilities here and there...). You have to be able to plan, think ahead, and be able to handle mistakes of you and your allies when they come along.

Death penalties for online RPGs are a good thing, if managed right. They cause people to be cautious, and think about circumstances.


The only thing it doesn't have is a long and boring level grind, but if all you want out of a video game is to do boring, repetitive things to watch numbers go up, save yourself the money and buy a calculator. The x^2 button gives you all the experience of most MMOs at a fraction of the time and cost.

That's... A pretty pitiful analogy. :/ MMOs, at least the good ones, don't make you want to play for the sake of gaining levels (though some people will still do solely that, compulsively). You play for the experience of playing the game with thousands of other people. If said game has a redundant, straight-forward battle system like Guild Wars, then it gets really boring to play, really fast, and keeps people clinging to the game just for the aspect of the community, which isn't what games are about; that's what message boards and chat rooms are about.

Guild Wars' battle system really only has one thing going for it, and that's how relatively fast-paced it is... But it's still just point, click, and hope it doesn't kill you. With the extremely narrow range of skills in the game, the enjoyability of the battles die out, fast. There's just no depth to it.

Unlike FFXI, where you're constantly gaining new abilities and spells, getting better equipment, and coming across new situations; you really have to be able to adapt to all sorts of circumstances. New jobs, new people, new builds, new enemies, new areas, new fights, all the time. Keeping the experience (at least somewhat) fresh, as much of the time as possible.

I guess Guild Wars is good, if you like excessive redundancy (all online games have some, but Guild Wars just has too much for me).

The major problem with FFXI, is some of the stupid people that play it... But they plague all online games at some point, so you can't just single them out to one game, either. Another problem, is people who look at the game, and think it's "just another MMO," such as EverQuest, or Star Wars Galaxies (which, by the way, is a pitiful bastardization of game design). It's an MMORPG in a truer sense, in that there's a far more in-depth running story in it than most MMOs have in their backstory. I, among quite a few other people, play(ed) the game for not only the sake of playing with others, but also the sake of expeiencing the game's story, which has a lot more to it than what Guild Wars has tried to do, so far.

[Ancient]

Seems like Guild Wars is either a love or hate it type game. Oh well, I still think its good. And for a free play MMO, they do a darn good job of keeping things secure and patched. Unlike some other game I just happen to be posting in a fan based forums for it in(PSO). I reported some doof who was using an exploit to dupe money, and with a couple hours the Team at Guild Wars had already replyed to me asking me for more specifics. And two days after that, they released a patch to fix it and sent me a thank you email. These guys have some serious love for their game.
The game isnt perfect, none are. And I admit that it doesnt have the depth that other MMO's might have. But it still works well and is enjoyable. In my mind, Guild Wars is similar to how Nintedo describes what it thinks the Revolution will be: They dont want to be the biggest, bestest most expensive thing out there. They want to be the inexpensive, light, fun, thing that people have to complement the fancy stuff. I dont think Guild Wars would replace WOW or whatever, but its fun to run through from time to time. And, thats how its set up, so you can leave and come back whenever you want, without feeling guilty.
So for those who think Guild Wars can't compete with othe MMO's, you're right, it can't. Because its not meant too, its meant to complement them.

[Neith]

There is actually a death-penalty system in Guild Wars. Whenever you die, upon being revived (via restoration shrine, or another player), your Health and Energy are cut by around 15% every time you die. The more you die, the weaker you become, therefore dying a lot easier.

As mentioned earlier, tactics are really important when the level cap is set at 20. Since mobs can be upto around Lv30+, they have a big advantage. By running in, you'll wind up dead very fast.

When I played FFXI, I found the combat system to be slow-paced, I've never been a fan of games where you stand around waiting for your character to do something. It was an ok game I guess, but after playing it, I think it could've been a whole lot better. I seem to remember being able to level down in FFXI too, an idea I don't like. In my eyes, the experience you earn in games like this is your skill as a fighter (by this, I mean, a high level warrior should ideally be more adjusted to combat, seeing as they've killed more than a lower level player). By allowing de-leveling, it's like you're losing skill. I prefer death penalties like the weakening in Guild Wars.

This seems to be turning into a Guild Wars vs FFXI debate, rather than the original question anyway, so I'll shut up.

[digigram]

I'll probably get a "that game sucks shit" response for my suggestion, if you don't like the game, keep your opinion to yourself..

Anarchy Online. Tons of stuff to do, many many professions, very large world to explore, plenty of things to do.

Far future, sci-fi'ish' cyberpunk'ish' MMO..

nothing close to that horrible game NEOCRON (don't even repeat that name after me, you'll hate yourself for even investigating it).

[Kent]

When I played Guild Wars, the biggest death penalty I got was about 2%. :/ That's not nearly enough to make it much of a death penalty, in the first place.

And yeah, I will admit, FFXI's battle system feels kinda slow, when you first start out... But that's mainly because the only option you have, is attacking.

That aside, things speed up a lot at later levels. Sooner or later, there'll be so much going on in each fight, that you won't really notice any slowness on your character's attacks (unless you're using, say, a Great Axe... A little too slow for me). As high-level Monk or Ninja, your attack speed gets way up there, though, especially with Haste...

[Neith]

I'll test this out tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure the first stage death penalty is 15%. Only by entering an outpost, or by killing mobs can you slowly work off the penalty.

[Dek]

On 2006-01-03 16:14, UrikoBB3 wrote:
I'll test this out tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure the first stage death penalty is 15%.


Because it is...

There may have been changes made to the death penalty depending on when users have played have played the game.

From summer to now, there have been loads of changes. The death penalty may have been one of them...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Arthas_Zero on 2006-01-03 16:37 ]</font>

[eXo]

On 2006-01-03 06:20, Cross wrote:
[quote]
Edit for On-Topic: The only MMOs seriously worth playing are:
If you like games with a ton of freedom, but also huge risks of losing a lot of stuff at once, EVE Online is the best current one, and Ultima Online if you don't mind playing an ancient game (and likely on a server running the old-style rules which can take some hunting).
If you really like games that are simple level grinds, World of Warcraft or City of Villains. WoW's appeal is mostly in tons of quests, if you don't mind that 99% of the quests are "Kill X of Y enemy", "Collect X amount of Y item", or "Walk from point A to point B". CoV's main draw is that there's almost no loot, and the powers that you get can be fun to use just because they're stylish; it's like an MMO version of a beat-em-up like Streets of Rage.
Guild Wars is there for if you hate level grinding and item grinding and if you like to play a game because it has good gameplay, rather than because you can gain more levels or more items.


I was almost with you until you started putting the bad mouth on some other good and Great game's i mean i understand that every game is not for everyone but anyone who tries to bad mouth a game like WoW their opinion's then fall into the category of a bit baisis. I mean it's currently the fastest growing MMORPG, of all time and it's a bad game http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_confused.gif http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_nono.gif no comment http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif
and
BTW he was asking about an MMO most people who play MMO's expect and in most cases look forward to the grind,and item collecting http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif plus what's the point of fun game play if their is no reward for your effort. and last but not least the ability to travel from town to town without going yourself sucks A$$

[eXo]

On 2006-01-03 09:26, Ancient wrote:
Seems like Guild Wars is either a love or hate it type game. Oh well, I still think its good. And for a free play MMO, they do a darn good job of keeping things secure and patched. Unlike some other game I just happen to be posting in a fan based forums for it in(PSO). I reported some doof who was using an exploit to dupe money, and with a couple hours the Team at Guild Wars had already replyed to me asking me for more specifics. And two days after that, they released a patch to fix it and sent me a thank you email. These guys have some serious love for their game.
The game isnt perfect, none are. And I admit that it doesnt have the depth that other MMO's might have. But it still works well and is enjoyable. In my mind, Guild Wars is similar to how Nintedo describes what it thinks the Revolution will be: They dont want to be the biggest, bestest most expensive thing out there. They want to be the inexpensive, light, fun, thing that people have to complement the fancy stuff. I dont think Guild Wars would replace WOW or whatever, but its fun to run through from time to time. And, thats how its set up, so you can leave and come back whenever you want, without feeling guilty.
So for those who think Guild Wars can't compete with othe MMO's, you're right, it can't. Because its not meant too, its meant to complement them.


Ah hmmm Guild War's is not an MMO

[ABDUR101]

Exo, everyone has their opinion.

WoW is great to alot of people, but as I said, once you've grinded for a while, you just lose interest. Expecially if you've played the same kind of gameplay, over numerous games for as long as many of us have. I played WoW for quite a while, but then got burnt out and just stuck with EVE(I had been playing them both routinely).

We're giving our opinions on the games we've played, to help someone decide. I don't care how 'great' a game is or how many subscribers it has, everyone likes something different.

Also, take into consideration that WoW is so popular, because of the franchise it's based on. Fairly, it does quite well what it does, but it is a cookie-cutter MMORPG all the same.

All games are time-sinks, expecially MMORPG's, but maybe I'm used to playing EVE where there really just isn't a grind to collect items, weapons and experience. The most I 'grind' for in EVE is money, and to do that there are endless ways to do it.

[eXo]

On 2006-01-03 17:24, ABDUR101 wrote:
Exo, everyone has their opinion.

WoW is great to alot of people, but as I said, once you've grinded for a while, you just lose interest. Expecially if you've played the same kind of gameplay, over numerous games for as long as many of us have. I played WoW for quite a while, but then got burnt out and just stuck with EVE(I had been playing them both routinely).

We're giving our opinions on the games we've played, to help someone decide. I don't care how 'great' a game is or how many subscribers it has, everyone likes something different.

Also, take into consideration that WoW is so popular, because of the franchise it's based on. Fairly, it does quite well what it does, but it is a cookie-cutter MMORPG all the same.

All games are time-sinks, expecially MMORPG's, but maybe I'm used to playing EVE where there really just isn't a grind to collect items, weapons and experience. The most I 'grind' for in EVE is money, and to do that there are endless ways to do it.



Point taken ... well ateast one thing i think that we all will be able to agree upon for now,and thats that you cant go wrong with holding out for P.S.U

[Ancient]

Exo, Guild Wars is an MMO. Its online, and has massive ammounts of people on it. Technically, thats all it takes to be an MMO. Guild Wars private instances connected by public nodes is just a slightly more indepth version of how PSO sets up its online bits. And yes, PSO is an MMO, otherwise it wouldnt be considered the very first console MMORPG now would it?
Don't knock it just because its an MMO that is set up differently than the "norm".
And to answer Kent, there is no Death penalty in the very first newb area of the game (known as pre-searing). If you had a 2% penalty then that means it was actually a bonus that you got for doing something good. You gain a 2% bonus to you stats for killing bosses, up to a max of 10%. You loose 15% each time you die, down to a maximum of -60% to your health and energy stats. This does work as a good way to promote not dying, because you simply cant do squat with only 40% of your stats left. Especially if you were too weak to not die in the first place.
If there are any other misconceptions about Guild Wars people would like explained, please let me know.

[Kent]

...I got a -2% for killing a boss or other form of rare monster? :/

Also, no, PSO and Guild Wars are not MMOs, in any fashion. An MMO is a game where there's a persistant world that everyone (restricted only by the server, but pretty much always at least in the thousands) can play in at once.

PSO only allows four people per game, therefore, it is not considered an MMO, of any sort.

Guild Wars is the same. It tries to be an MMO, and has some people fooled, by having everyone able to see each other in town, but the rest of the entire game is instanced, thus, making it not an MMO.

Diablo, Diablo II, Rakion, and lots of other online RPGs are not MMO, either. In an MMO, you don't have to create an instance just to be able to play the game, everyone has access to pretty much everything. PSO and Diablo-style games are not MMO, because you have to create/join an instance, and others have to create/join one in order to play. Guild Wars is not an MMO, for the same reason. Towns are basically just the lobby, or the chat room... But with NPCs.

[eXo]

On 2006-01-03 22:16, Ancient wrote:
Exo, Guild Wars is an MMO. Its online, and has massive ammounts of people on it. Technically, thats all it takes to be an MMO. Guild Wars private instances connected by public nodes is just a slightly more indepth version of how PSO sets up its online bits. And yes, PSO is an MMO, otherwise it wouldnt be considered the very first console MMORPG now would it?
Don't knock it just because its an MMO that is set up differently than the "norm".
And to answer Kent, there is no Death penalty in the very first newb area of the game (known as pre-searing). If you had a 2% penalty then that means it was actually a bonus that you got for doing something good. You gain a 2% bonus to you stats for killing bosses, up to a max of 10%. You loose 15% each time you die, down to a maximum of -60% to your health and energy stats. This does work as a good way to promote not dying, because you simply cant do squat with only 40% of your stats left. Especially if you were too weak to not die in the first place.
If there are any other misconceptions about Guild Wars people would like explained, please let me know.



Hmm that's interesting because there is a differience if you click the links from my first post on page one, you will clearly see that final fatasy XI & WoW are referred to as MMORPG'S while on the other hand in the guild War's review it is just referred to as an online RPG it's the same sind of thing that seperated DiabloII from Everquest back in the day http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_confused.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: eXo on 2006-01-03 22:32 ]</font>

[eXo]

On 2006-01-03 22:27, Kent wrote:
...I got a -2% for killing a boss or other form of rare monster? :/

Also, no, PSO and Guild Wars are not MMOs, in any fashion. An MMO is a game where there's a persistant world that everyone (restricted only by the server, but pretty much always at least in the thousands) can play in at once.

PSO only allows four people per game, therefore, it is not considered an MMO, of any sort.

Guild Wars is the same. It tries to be an MMO, and has some people fooled, by having everyone able to see each other in town, but the rest of the entire game is instanced, thus, making it not an MMO.

Diablo, Diablo II, Rakion, and lots of other online RPGs are not MMO, either. In an MMO, you don't have to create an instance just to be able to play the game, everyone has access to pretty much everything. PSO and Diablo-style games are not MMO, because you have to create/join an instance, and others have to create/join one in order to play. Guild Wars is not an MMO, for the same reason. Towns are basically just the lobby, or the chat room... But with NPCs.


Exactly anyway we are getting a little off topic not http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif here is an gamefaq link that will' explain the differience between an online RPG and an MMORPG.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/review/R85372.html

[Kent]

I have a textbook that goes a little more in-depth as to what classifies a game as an MMO. :/ If I remember correctly, it specifically states that Guild Wars isn't one, as well...

[Neith]

Just as an aside, I tested the death penalty.
After One Death:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/jordison197666/GWDeath1.jpg
After Two:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/jordison197666/GWDeath2.jpg

Anyway, as far as Guild Wars being an MMO, I wouldn't class it as one. I also wouldn't class Diablo, PSO either.

In Diablo and PSO, someone has to make a game. In essence, if there are multiple games online, there are multiple worlds. An MMORPG uses one massive game world, where all characters interact within the boundaries of the same world.

In Guild Wars, player characters are only outside outposts if partied with another human player. You do not see other human characters running around if they're not partied. Again, this would make Guild Wars not an MMORPG, but an online RPG with some characteristics of an MMO.

Being fair though, apart from the 'every player has their own world outside outposts', Guild Wars has all the makings of an MMO, and in my opinion should be compared to them in terms of gameplay style. After all, in most of these games, all you do is attack, use skills, rinse, repeat, simply in different approaches.

[Kent]

That's kinda weird... I've never seen a death penalty that huge in Guild Wars. :/

[Jehosaphaty]

talk about a ticky-tac disagreement on the labeling of mmo vs. mmorpg. does it really matter?

also, eve is fun. im enjoying my trial at the moment.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jehosaphaty on 2006-01-04 12:54 ]</font>

[Neith]

Yeah, I apologise for going off-topic there, sorry about that.

[Jehosaphaty]

your death penalty findings were kind of interesting.

[Dre_o]

But now! To get fully back on topic, I came to suggest another game, Diablo 2. Yes it may be old, but nothing brings me more joy than watching the little skeletons getting up in hordes then my frying them with my Wake Of Lightning trap....zappidy zap zap. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

It is a fun game, free online, and should curb your time until something like PSU comes out.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dre_o on 2006-01-04 13:45 ]</font>

[ABDUR101]

On 2006-01-04 13:44, Dre_o wrote:
But now! To get fully back on topic, I came to suggest another game, Diablo 2. Yes it may be old, but nothing brings me more joy than watching the little skeletons getting up in hordes then my frying them with my Wake Of Lightning trap....zappidy zap zap. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

It is a fun game, free online, and should curb your time until something like PSU comes out.


As fun as D2 and it's expansion pack are, it's not a MMORPG, which is what is being asked about.(Deja vu, thought we just covered this a page or two ago)

[eXo]

On 2006-01-04 14:00, ABDUR101 wrote:


On 2006-01-04 13:44, Dre_o wrote:
But now! To get fully back on topic, I came to suggest another game, Diablo 2. Yes it may be old, but nothing brings me more joy than watching the little skeletons getting up in hordes then my frying them with my Wake Of Lightning trap....zappidy zap zap. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

It is a fun game, free online, and should curb your time until something like PSU comes out.


As fun as D2 and it's expansion pack are, it's not a MMORPG, which is what is being asked about.(Deja vu, thought we just covered this a page or two ago)


yea
http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[Dre_o]

On 2006-01-04 14:00, ABDUR101 wrote:


As fun as D2 and it's expansion pack are, it's not a MMORPG, which is what is being asked about.(Deja vu, thought we just covered this a page or two ago)



Uhh....umm...you're right....crap...one minute while I go bang my head in the corner...

[Kent]

On 2006-01-04 12:48, Jehosaphaty wrote:
talk about a ticky-tac disagreement on the labeling of mmo vs. mmorpg. does it really matter?


Err... Nobody said anything about MMO vs. MMORPG. I was just correcting some people on what classifies a game as MMO-anything.

[Cross]

On 2006-01-03 09:04, Kent wrote:
...Because everyone plays online games for the PvP factor?

If anything, Guild Wars is light years behind, due to its reliance on people who just want PvP, and severe lack of content and depth, otherwise.

PvP has more replay value than PvE. Period. It is always, without exception, more interesting gameplay when you play against another living, thinking person than it is when you play against simple AI, especially the calibre of AI that's been seen in online RPGs.


If you can honestly call FFXI braindead, then you've never played it. :/

There's a lot more thinking and strategy involved in fighting enemies in FFXI than Guild Wars has displayed.

In Guild Wars, you just go out, and kill random creatures on your way to finishing a quest for whatever, and if you find a group of enemies that are too tough, you just die and suffer the nigh-complete lack of death penalty. Tn FFXI, however, if you just want to kill enemies for experience, you need a tactical and (at least somewhat) intelligent party, just to be able to survive. If you accidentally get an enemy that's too tough for your party, or you try and do a boss fight somewhere, you're going to fail that fight miserably, if you just go in, and try to fight as simply as Guild Wars (point, click, use some abilities here and there...). You have to be able to plan, think ahead, and be able to handle mistakes of you and your allies when they come along.

Death penalties for online RPGs are a good thing, if managed right. They cause people to be cautious, and think about circumstances.
I've played FFXI, with a variety of very different classes. It doesn't matter what you play; the game is absolutely simple and braindead. There isn't any depth to any of the game's skills, and the best it manages to do for strategy is a simple aggro-management system.
The entire game's combat system boils down to:
1) If you are a 'tank', do whatever you can to keep the monsters attacking you.
2) If you are not, then deal damage, heal, or debuff just enough that you don't make the monsters attack you.

That's it. Nothing else.

You don't need a tactical or intelligent group to get experience in FFXI. You need six (or eighteen for 'raid encounters'; whatever) people who are smart enough to not castrate themselves microwaving a bowl of soup.
You know why you die miserably if you fight an enemy that's much stronger than you in FFXI? Because the combat system is simplistic and straightforward. Every fight comes down to comparing the amount of damage you can deal to the damage that the enemy can deal versus your healing power. You can't fight things that are too strong for you because the battle system doesn't allow for skill; if the enemy is too powerful, you miss most of your attacks, your 'tactical' skills like buffs and debuffs just don't stick, and the game makes it impossible for you to win.
In Guild Wars, low-level characters fighting strong monsters, or fighting too many monsters (another thing; in FFXI, 2 monsters = too many most of the time; in Guild Wars we're talking more like 15-20) will be laid flat just as easily as they would be in FFXI, except that a team of skilled players can actually use a little bit of brainpower to take down an enemy much stronger than they are.

And as mentioned, the death penalty is -15% maximum HP and MP per death, up to a maximum of -60%. If you didn't get death penalty, then you didn't even play past the game's tutorial, because that is the only place in the game where the death penalty doesn't happen, and the normal death penalty has been in place for over two years.
Further, the death penalty in Guild Wars is a much better idea than the death penalty in FFXI. If you die in FFXI, you lose... experience. That's it. Experience isn't a marker of skill or ability; it's a marker of how much time you've spent playing the game. When you die, you lose time. It's nothing but a transparent effort on the part of Square-Enix to make the game take longer to play through so they can continue to get money from you month after month.
Since the death penalty is just a direct cost in time (and an indirect cost in real-world money), people aren't cautious, they pussyfoot their way through the entire game, never taking on any real risks (Of course, as mentioned, you can hardly blame them because the game engine doesn't allow for skill to make enough of a difference that risks make sense).
The death penalty in Guild Wars, on the other hand, isn't designed to cost you time or money. It's just that, a penalty, applied when you die, that makes it easier for you to die in the future. That makes people cautious, because if you die, you're forced to be even more cautious. It's a calculated risk, and it impacts gameplay without being a ham-fisted effort to squeeze more money out of the player base.

That's... A pretty pitiful analogy. :/ MMOs, at least the good ones, don't make you want to play for the sake of gaining levels (though some people will still do solely that, compulsively). You play for the experience of playing the game with thousands of other people. If said game has a redundant, straight-forward battle system like Guild Wars, then it gets really boring to play, really fast, and keeps people clinging to the game just for the aspect of the community, which isn't what games are about; that's what message boards and chat rooms are about.

Guild Wars' battle system really only has one thing going for it, and that's how relatively fast-paced it is... But it's still just point, click, and hope it doesn't kill you. With the extremely narrow range of skills in the game, the enjoyability of the battles die out, fast. There's just no depth to it.
Oh, right, because you're playing FFXI with 'thousands of other people'. You play the game in parties of six people, which increases to eighteen in the event that you're doing a large encounter.
Once you have your party, the only thing that any other players represent are impediments to your own leveling. You're not out there waging wide-scale battles in some sort of army. You're not gathering around in a circle to tell anecdotes and be a social butterfly (and I agree, that's what message boards are for). You're camping in one area, sending one guy out to pull a single monster back, and then fighting it. If other people show up, you tell them to move along and find another place to camp at.

The only interaction you have with other players besides that is if some dork causes a train of enemies to run through your camp and you have to run to the zone line, interrupting your own leveling. Yep, that's certainly an experience worth savouring. I'm so glad that they give me the opportunity to pay $10/month for that privilege!

I don't think you've actually played Guild Wars past the tutorial if you're saying that the battle system has no depth and complexity to it, especially compared to FFXI. What are the skillsets in FFXI? For a mage, you get Fire - which does damage, Stone - which does damage, Aero - which does damage, Drain - which does damage and gives you HP, etc. The differences between them are restricted to MP cost, elemental, and damage output.
Oh! But later on, you can get Fire II, Stone II, Aero II, Drain II, etc. They're - how's this for variety? - exactly like the previous skills, but more powerful! Wow! What an in-depth and complex combat system!

Meanwhile, in Guild Wars, even the basic elemental spells are quite different. Leaving out information that's the same (or obvious, like elemental affinity):
Flare - No cooldown, deals 48 damage (at the highest attribute level) as a projectile.
Stone Daggers - No cooldown, sends out two projectiles that deal 25 damage each.
Lightning Strike - 5s cooldown, strikes for 53 damage, has 25% armour penetration, and is not a projectile.
Ice Spear - No cooldown, throws a projectile for 69 damage but has half the normal spell range.

The cooldown is obvious enough; with no cooldown on all of them but Lightning Strike, you can cast them one after the other until you run out of Energy. The damage varies between all of them; Flare is straight damage in a single hit projectile. Stone Daggers hits twice, which means that if the opponent has a spell that, say, reduces damage taken per-hit by some number, it's worse since that bonus will apply to both daggers. But if there's a spell that causes 33% of all projectile attacks to miss, there's a better chance that at least one will do damage. Ice Spear does more damage than either of them, but you need to get in close. Lightning Strike deals good damage, plus has armour penetration, but you can only cast it once every five seconds; the important part though is that it isn't a projectile. If your opponent has good twitch reflexes, they can strafe and dodge a projectile attack, whereas with Lightning Strike they can't; projectiles also require a line-of-sight to your enemy while Lightning Strike would not.

And those are some of the most basic, straightforward skills in the game. There are far more complex skills in the game; there are skills that force the enemy's hand, and deal damage if they don't use a skill in the next three seconds; there are skills that deal a lot of damage if the enemy drops to zero Energy while the spell effect is on them; there are skills that cause enemies attacking a certain target in melee to lose Energy and all adrenaline (like TP in FFXI except a more fleshed out system); there are skills that steal 1 Energy from all Enemies in a certain radius when you cast a spell; there are skills that cause enemies to have a 25% miss rate, and to take damage to their HP or MP when they miss. These are just a very small number of the skills in the game that are more complex than 99% of everything you can do in FFXI. I could go on for literally pages about the intricacies about these and other skills that go far, far beyond FFXI's console-style dumbed-down spell arsenal.
And I won't even really get into the tremendous amount of skill synergy in Guild Wars. The game doesn't have skillchains like FFXI. You know why? Because the skills are complex and varied enough that you get effects that are just as profound without adding some arbitrary bonus damage, except the skills are also good on their own without being used together. Take skillchains out of FFXI, and the majority of attacks are all pretty much the same.

To put things another way: There are six spells in FFXI to revive dead players. Of those, there are really only two seperate spells: Raise and Reraise. The others are just the II and III versions, and the only difference is that they are better.
In Guild Wars, there are seven resurrection skills, and not a single one of them is better than another. They all have different costs, concerns, pros and cons depending on the situation. Anticipating which of them would be most useful to you by carefully evaluating what the situation will be like in the next map is already beyond most of the brain power you'd be required to use for FFXI.

Also, saying that "Guild Wars is more fast-paced and that's an advantage" is a gross understatement. It's not just faster. It requires the situational awareness to be able to keep track of upwards of sixteen players at the same time, on your team and your enemy's, and to make decisions immediately based on that. There are essays that I can write (and, at least once or twice, have written) that deal with nothing other than which target you should attack in a given situation.
There are spells in Guild Wars that cast in 0.25seconds. There are spells that are used to interrupt other spells that cast in about 0.15 seconds. A skilled interrupter will be able to consistently interrupt those 0.25s spells. That's a lot beyond just being faster-paced. That's a game where skills, reflexes, and prediction are at the forefront in terms of what's going to cut it and what isn't. FFXI, in comparison... Well, FFXI just flat-out is so below it that you can't really compare the two. FFXI's servers don't even have low enough latency to support gameplay like that.


Unlike FFXI, where you're constantly gaining new abilities and spells, getting better equipment, and coming across new situations; you really have to be able to adapt to all sorts of circumstances. New jobs, new people, new builds, new enemies, new areas, new fights, all the time. Keeping the experience (at least somewhat) fresh, as much of the time as possible.

I guess Guild Wars is good, if you like excessive redundancy (all online games have some, but Guild Wars just has too much for me).
Constantly gaining new abilities and spells and equipment that are nothing more than direct upgrades of previous abilities and spells and equipment. By level 30 in FFXI, you've seen 99% of what the game has to offer in gameplay - everything after that is just slow, boring grinding to the max level.
You're not adapting to shit in FFXI. You must seriously be high to be saying that FFXI has a lot of new situations, and that Guild Wars is the game with excessive redundancy.

In which game are you fighting the same crabs, bees, and rabbits at level 70 as you are at level 5? In which game are you required to level up a class, then level up a subclass, and then level up the first class so that you can become a second class, but first you need a subclass for that second class so you have to level up the subclass but you also might need to level up a subclass for the subclass because your second class makes a bad subclass for its subclass but you can't just use the subclass for the subclass as a subclass for the second class?

Considering that it doesn't sound like you've even made it through the tutorial (the first hour or two of the game), do you really think that commentary on the rest of the game is appropriate?

Having played both games, Guild Wars has as much content as FFXI has (and a much better game engine). The only difference is that Guild Wars lets you go from one piece of content to the next, and FFXI makes you go through dozens upon dozens of hours of grinding experience and money and skills and other alternate classes in between the content.
If FFXI has more content at the moment, then it's because the game has been out long enough to have two expansion packs released. Guild Wars' first expansion pack is set to be released in the coming few months, and is going to be the same size as the base game (I was in the closed testing for it for a while, and while that's still under NDA I'll say that isn't exaggeration on their part).


The major problem with FFXI, is some of the stupid people that play it... But they plague all online games at some point, so you can't just single them out to one game, either. Another problem, is people who look at the game, and think it's "just another MMO," such as EverQuest, or Star Wars Galaxies (which, by the way, is a pitiful bastardization of game design). It's an MMORPG in a truer sense, in that there's a far more in-depth running story in it than most MMOs have in their backstory. I, among quite a few other people, play(ed) the game for not only the sake of playing with others, but also the sake of expeiencing the game's story, which has a lot more to it than what Guild Wars has tried to do, so far.

FFXI is a far more pitiful and pathetic attempt at game design than even SWG. As for the story, well, I never saw the end, but from what you see in the early missions, I was never really given any reason to believe that the story would ever get better than something that you might expect to be written by "Billy, Age 8". It was like FFIV-era Final Fantasy stories, except without the benefit of any characters that I gave a rat's ass about.
Not that Guild Wars is better in that department, as (at least as of chapter 1) it's basically pulp fantasy, but the backstory is hardly a focus in an online RPG next to the gameplay, and in terms of gameplay; Guild Wars has it, FFXI doesn't. I can get the story by reading a summary or downloading a recorded movie of it, but I want a game, not a book or a movie.


Also, for the record, regarding the "It's an MMO!" "No it isn't!" arguments, there are two things that everybody should remember before they get into that:

1) The line between what is and isn't an MMO is completely arbitrary. Really. You can set that line basically wherever the hell you want. Why? Because there's no magic cut-off point; there's a gradual curve between a completely persistent world and a regular online game.
EVE online only has one server and every player in the world that plays the game is on it (there are a couple other games in this category, but not many). Those ones are pretty undisputedly MMOs. So what isn't an MMO? Well, I'm sure we can all agree that Diablo 1 and PSO v1 are not. So is the difference just whether the players can all be in the same place?
In that case, FFXI, EverQuest, etc can't be MMOs; in EVE everybody is on the same server, but in FFXI/EQ (and also a lot of Korean games like RO and Lineage 2 are in this category) there are still dozens of completely seperate servers. Doesn't seem as 'massive' in that regard.
Or if FFXI and EverQuest are MMOs, then what about WoW? The basic structure is the same, except all the really important dungeons are instances. The PvP Battlegrounds are too. Can you not call it an MMO because of that?
If WoW is still an MMO, what about City of Heroes/Villains? It's like WoW, except just about every quest takes place in an instanced dungeon. There are probably more people in instances at any given time than there are out in the non-instanced areas. Plus every server is already a superset of all those smaller instances. Thinking back to EVE, this seems like a very different game architecture. Is it not MMO, though?
From there down, there are games like PSO:BB and Diablo 2 (Realm servers, obviously). These games, functionally, are pretty similar to CoV. Everybody off doing quests and the like is in an instance. The only difference is that there are lobbies/chat rooms instead of the outdoor areas, and they're generally split up (the same effect you'd get if the cities were just much smaller in CoV). However, now there's something interesting... FFXI, EQ, WoW, CoV, etc all had dozens of different servers... But for PSO:BB there's really only the US and JP servers, and for D2 you've got a similarly small number, US East, US West, etc.
Now look at something like Guild Wars. Same as the last few in that the dungeons and such are instanced, and the towns are instanced too. But, and here's the real kicker, there's only one real server for the same. It's semi-segregated into American, European, and Korean districts, but there are International Districts that anybody can go into. Even though we're a far cry from EVE's completely unsegregated game world, we've gone full circle and it's one of the few games in which the entire world is on one server at once.

The question, then, is "Just where is the line between an MMO and a non-MMO?" The answer, funnily enough, is that there isn't really one. Logically, the only place that you can really put the line is so that only games like EVE - one single game world, and one instanced server - really meet the criteria. But then EverQuest and UO are excluded from the list, and those are the pioneers of the genre (excluding oddballs like M59), so that seems a bit off. If that doesn't work as a line for you, then the line must be arbitrary. For you, an MMO can be anything from CoV to EVE, but the line is still blurred in between CoV and Guild Wars/PSOBB/D2Realm. You might say that a game can have as many servers as it wants but no instances within those servers, and put the cutoff point so that the only ones that really make it in are old, old EQ, maybe FFXI, UO, etc.
It's fine wherever you want to put the line, but there is no certain, definite this is an MMO and this is not line, because it just doesn't exist without a big injection of personal opinion. So 'correcting' somebody on the issue doesn't make a lot of sense. Personally, I think that you can make an argument that any game that saves player information and is played on a centrally-hosted server is an MMO to some degree.

2) This is the most important rule:
A game being an MMO does not mean that it's a good game, nor does not being an MMO mean that it's a worse game than an MMO. I like Guild Wars, I liked PSO, and I'll probably like PSU, I think that theoretically all three of them are MMO to some degree, and I think that they're (except PSO) better games than WoW, FFXI, etc, but I wouldn't include them in a list of MMOs unless it was for the sake of argument. Similarly, EVE is not a better game than the others because it's "more" of an MMO or because it's a more "pure" MMO - the reasons that it's got advantages over a lot of other games come down purely to the gameplay. The reverse is of course true - WoW and CoV obviously aren't worse than FFXI and EverQuest just because they make more extensive use of instancing.

Sorry for the length, but if it's not readily apparent by now, game design theory (particularly online) is a hobby of mine.

[Kent]

Wow, nice way to rant, and borderline flame people. Insinuating that I'm low enough to use drugs and all. Try to lay off that, some, will you? :/

I've played Guild Wars for a good chunk of the game. Past the searing, level 11 Mesmer/Monk, as well as Elementalist/Necromancer and Monk/Mesmer at other levels. There was too much redundancy, and not enough depth to keep me playing it (almost no variety in equipment, painfully small library of skills, etc.).

You sound, however, like you haven't played much of FFXI at all... Seems like you just played a Black Mage, and that's it. :/ Black Mage doesn't only get offensive spells, like you seem to think, though. They do get a lot of them, yeah, but there's always going to be some class in any online game, where they can do one thing really well, and they stick to it. Let's see... "Warriors hit things with weapons! Every game is more complex than this, because I'm completely ignoring everything else this job has to offer!"

Right. Warriors hit things with weapons, but they also get a key ability, Provoke, which helps manage the hate system you mentioned. Well, seeing as you don't seem to have played FFXI very much, I'll tell you how hate management works.

Hate management is a group effort. The designated tank has to do enough damage, use enough abilities/magic, etc. in order to keep the monster's attention, so that the other people in the party can do their jobs, without being attacked. However, the other members can only generate enough hate, so that they don't surpass the amount of hate the tank has, or else the enemy starts to attack them. Any experienced tank (especially Warriors and Ninja) can tell you, that this is, in no way, a completely easy feat. It's mainly all about timing, and especially with Samurai, reflexes (something you mentioned that Guild Wars requires that FFXI apparently didn't, to you...).

Reflexes are required with a good few of the jobs. Anybody subbing Warrior, has to be able to Provoke an enemy instantly, as soon as it turns away from the tank, for whatever reason. Samurai have to be able to use Third Eye and negate an enemy's weaponskill. Paladins and White Magi (as well as other magi subbing White Mage) have to be able to Cure fast to be able to keep people alive (while also keeping some hate, in the case of Paladin). Ninja have to be able to cast their Ninjutsu in perfect timing, as well as use their abilities perfectly, in order to keep hate and minimize damage, which is something that I can tell you from experience, is very tricky to do (thus the reason there are so few good ninja around; it takes a lot of skill and practice to play well). Every damage dealing character has to be able to time their weaponskills, as well as work out a skillchain, in the first place, to be able to do extra damage on both the weaponskills (due to the skillchain effect), and the applicable Magi have to be able to time their offensive magics so they land at the right time, to coincide with the skillchain effect, for maximum damage, as well.

There's a lot in FFXI that has to do with timing and reflexes. If you're a mage, and there are Samurai in your party, you have to be on your toes, and know your skillchains, in order to get a magic burst off at the right time, especially if you get ambushed, and there's pressure to be able to do the fight perfectly.

What you're saying about FFXI's combat system being simplistic is an obvious lie. :/ As explained in the relatively few examples I have given (compared to all the possible situations and assets), there's quite a bit of complexity to it, there. Strategically, players can reliably kill enemies that are way too strong for them... If they know how to strategize, that is. I know how it's done, I've seen it happen. And yes, it requires a very intelligent and tactical party to pull this off. If you can honestly attempt to deny this, then go play past level 10, next time. :/

I like how you said Black Mage gets Stone, Fire, etc. and they all do the same thing. You realize they're different elements, different amounts of power, different casting times, and different MP costs, hopefully (not exactly upgrades of each other, either; you need a wide variety of elemental spells, as a mage)... There's also a plethora of utility spells that all the mage jobs get their assortment of, all with their own usage. For all of the jobs, the game is highly based on dealing with elements. Skillchain effects all have different elements, you have to play to your enemy's weakness, and the resident magi have to bring out protection and offensive spells based on the current situation.

That being said, not even scratching the surface, really, there's a lot of tactical decisions to be made in FFXI. Like I said before, if you can honestly say otherwise, play past level 10 next time. If you go into a party that doesn't work together, and doesn't strategize at all, and just tries to kill enemies, people are going to die, and fail at gaining any EXP at all.

Also, for the record, there are enemies of very many types, that can be efficiently killed, at almost all levels, for EXP. The reason some people stick to the same enemies over and over, is because they've gotten used to dealing with that one enemy type. Yeah, there are crabs of almost every level range available, and yes, there are some people that fight almost nothing but crabs. There are also people who are smart enough to pick a place to level, based on the party's strengths, damage types, spell availability, etc.; these are the people who can really strategize well enough to get the most out of the game's complexities. For example, if your damage dealers mainly rely on piercing damage, go fight things that are weak to piercing damage (i.e. not crabs, or bees, or rabbits, there aren't even those to fight at level 70, stop making things up, if you would be so kind).

For someone who has such a vendetta against FFXI, you sure haven't done your homework. From what I've seen of Guild Wars' story, there isn't even an eighth as much as FFXI had, before the first expansion. And, needless to say, there's a lot of story in each of the subsequent expansions. Almost all of the NPCs have their own stories, as well... All sorts of side-stories, and politics, and everything. It takes a lot of running around and seeing what NPCs have to say, and a lot of experiencing the main storyline, as well, to really appreciate the severe amount of story the game has to offer.

Yes, you have to gain some levels before you can advance all the way through the story. And yes, just like in previous Final Fantasy games, you can beat the bossfights at a lower level than normal... If you can out-strategize the fight, and come prepared, that is. Sounds to me, like you think that someone can just go through Guild Wars' story, without levelling up at all, which would just add to the redundancy, considering how generic the story has been in my time playing it.

[Jehosaphaty]

take your fourth grade arguements elsewhere, or get the hell out. i wanted opinions, not petty insults as to who 'knows' more about what game.

[eXo]

To me the disagreement appears to be based on the statments from two perspective's one which is considered quite legitimate, because he he reached a level of 2 on a game with an lv cap.On the other hand im not quite sure what level the other person was on FFXI but i can assure you the game has a much higher complexity level then he give's it credit for.especially once you take on the Promy,s.

[eXo]

But like i said guild War's received a scoe of 9.2 on videogames.com due to it's originality i just prefer to play a game with more popular characters like shiva and laviatan http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_yes.gif

[watashiwa]

On 2006-01-05 14:15, Kent wrote:
You sound, however, like you haven't played much of FFXI at all... Seems like you just played a Black Mage, and that's it. :/

Hate management is a group effort. The designated tank has to do enough damage, use enough abilities/magic, etc. in order to keep the monster's attention, so that the other people in the party can do their jobs, without being attacked. BLAH BLAH BLAH fight perfectly.

For example, if your damage dealers mainly rely on piercing damage, go fight things that are weak to piercing damage (i.e. not crabs, or bees, or rabbits, there aren't even those to fight at level 70, stop making things up, if you would be so kind).

BLAH BLAH BLAH



Actually, Kent, Cross has played quite a bit of FFXI. I used to party with him back in the day. He got to be a decent enough level to understand the game as well.

You've done a good job at trying to make the combat system look less simplistic than it is, but you've really haven't said anything that Cross didn't say. You can extend the description all you want, FFXI's combat system still is basic.

It's pretty much as he said. There's a hate system. You try to keep the hate on the tank. That means if you're a spell caster, don't use spells too often or too powerful that will attract the hate on you. (This includes both offensive and defensive spells.) Limit yourself to casting every now and then.

Skillchains are nice and fun to pull off, but outside of that and 2 hour abilities, there really isn't much to FFXI's combat system. It is a complete bore fest.

Another thing, I think YOU haven't played FFXI enough. There ARE level 70 monsters of the same type you've fought at lower levels. I mean, Christ, there's even a carbon copy of Valkrum Dunes with the same exact monsters for high level people. That's just ridiculous.

.. Ever hear of the God monsters? Yeah, they're basically just palette modified rabbits. Why don't you go join a HNMLS and come back to this thread with facts? (If you don't know, a HNMLS is a high level notorious monster link shell. Basically a bunch of high level people at end game who go in to kill things.)

On top of that, if you're a melee class in a HNMLS, you usually don't get to do much when you go out to kill things because the end game bosses don't take melee damage.. or very very little of it. Basically, if you're a melee class, all you do is join to use your 2 hour ability, then you leave the group. The rest is handed to the spell casters.

FFXI is a horrible game and should have had it's system redesigned.. I can't believe I played it for as long as I did.

Down with FFXI. I hope it burns in Hell.

BTW..

Level 75 Lizard:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/bestiary.html?fmob=948

Level 70 Crab:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/bestiary.html?fmob=1550


Even if there is "strategy" to the game, like you say, you only use it in a few fights of the game. The majority of the time, when you're grinding (about 95% of game play time), you basically just keep hate on the tank, do damage, or support. It's that simple.

The strategy on some fights is pretty basic too, take the rank 3 Dragon fight. Basically sleep the dragon, kill the eyeball mob, own the dragon. You win. Even that is basic.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: watashiwa on 2006-01-06 01:09 ]</font>

[Kent]

To each his own, I guess. I didn't realize you people were saying that level 70+ people went to EXP off of NMs.

And any game will seem simplistic, once you get everything down pact (especially MMOs, which have to keep things strictly more simplistic, just due to bandwidth issues). I was speaking in relative terms, to Guild Wars (mainly).

Also, I've played a lot of FFXI, over about two years. Monk 75, Red Mage 66, Samurai 64; ask Dgo and eXo, they'll know. :/ I know what I'm talking about here, and have learned to appreciate the overall depth and amount of content the game has (even though I'm not currently playing, it's the best MMO I've ever experienced). Though, I guess some people like it even more simplistic, in MMOs; I'll have to keep that in mind, in my research.

And yes, for the record, I've been in HNMLSes before, and I know how they work. They're too "clanny" for my tastes, but they brought experience, knowledge, and associates to me, for me to have whilst I kept playing. I know the combat tactics for the majority of HNMs are very, very different from the normal game; my previous arguements were based on what normal players of the game will be doing, for the majority of their playtime, not hard-core HNM campers. There's no need to argue, for people who would dedicate/waste that much time for the game. But if you want to keep fighting the same enemy type, thoughout the game, that's your choice, but you do have options.

That's not to say, that it's by any means perfect. I could start listing off improvements I'd want to make, if I were associated/in the development team, but amongst MMOs I've played (AC, AC2, EQ2, SWG, etc.), it has the least amount of things I'd want to change.

[eXo]

Well i personally enjoy the game i take alot of break's but thats just how i am i do not belong to an LS http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif and i really cant wait until the 360 version is released because it should help boost the population a bunch once more although there are more then enough to go around already

[watashiwa]

On 2006-01-06 02:44, Kent wrote:
To each his own, I guess. I didn't realize you people were saying that level 70+ people went to EXP off of NMs.


No, they're not just NMs, newblet.

Take a look here:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/bestiary.html?ffamily=37

Tropical Rarab (73-76):

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/bestiary.html?fmob=3107

Variable Hare (58-61):

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/bestiary.html?fmob=3174

Haha.. Crawlers @ http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/bestiary.html?ffamily=11

Knight Crawler (60-67):

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/bestiary.html?fmob=776

RUMBLE CRAWLER (53-56):

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/bestiary.html?fmob=772

Family listing @ http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/bestiary.html?mode=byfam

Go ahead, click your favorite family you've seen at the beginning. Guaranteed they have monsters of the same type (Non-NM) at levels that will take you through the game to the highest level. FFXI is THAT ridiciulous.

Granted, FFXI has some nice original boss fights and mission monsters, but the normal monsters used throughout the game are reused more so than probably any MMORPG I've ever seen. They don't even bother to palette swap them, only on the real special end game ones.

A level 1 rabbit looks the same as a level 75 rabbit. Just with a different name. Same goes for crabs, crawlers, lizards, sheeps, and so on and so forth.

Edit: Wow, not even joking, an update on January 3rd added two new mobs to the game. Nightmare Crawler and Nightmare Bunny. COME ON, lol.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: watashiwa on 2006-01-06 21:00 ]</font>

[eXo]

Umm i know that this really is not my place to speak up on but umm with, all do respect you are falling way off topic. Make amends find a common ground for agreement,Borderline flaming is not the purpose of this post yes i stated my opinion but in a polite manner,the creator of this post has asked you to please stop, im actually viewing this post because im using to find out what are the other hot MMORPG's as well, no im not trying to play MOD but im just tuired of having to scroll through a half of the page of wasted key stroke's just to get to the next legitimate opinion you made your point on why you feel that Guild War's is better then FFXI WoW and everything else known to god's green earth about six post ago http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_nono.gif kent is trying to stay on topic by saying to each there own thats fair enough to me, you are completly getting off supporting why guild war's is a good or great game and just babbling about why FFXI is a bad one http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_nono.gif im sure that anyone else who is actually attempting to gain some vital info from this thread most likly feel's the same way by now,and would appreciate it to stop because its starting to come off as a rant which is fine with me but if that's what you want to do im pretty sure that i saw a link for that kind of stuff http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_confused.gif This thread has the potential to have some good input come from it, you have passinatly expressed your opinion but everyone is entittled to there own that's why we are called individual's and you cant changed the way that someone look's at something by complaining? i would hate to see it get locked =( Like a said before im not trying to play MOD and there is no disrespect intended but enough already http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif BTW how did FFXI become the sole topic of this anyway http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_confused.gif





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: eXo on 2006-01-06 21:48 ]</font>

[Kent]

On 2006-01-06 20:51, watashiwa wrote:
newblet


... :/

Anyway...

Dungeons and Dragons Online is looking pretty good, from what I've read about it. It's actually very close to properly translating Dungeons and Dragons to a PC game... It's gonna be pretty amazing, if they can really pull it off, heh. I haven't really heard much about other upcoming MMOs, though.

[Mixfortune]

As has been stated multiple times now, cool it, people.
Sometimes it's good to look back and remind ourselves what the topic's really about.

[KaFKa]

If you haven't ever played Evequest, WoW is a great game that will keep you entertained for a good while. (Hell, it kept me entertained for more than a year.)

Only problem about WoW now is, in order to keep yourself moving forward after the level cap you have to get into an established guild. Wich, depending on how charismatic you are, can be tough as hell.

[eXo]

On 2006-01-07 21:27, KaFKa wrote:
If you haven't ever played Evequest, WoW is a great game that will keep you entertained for a good while. (Hell, it kept me entertained for more than a year.)

Only problem about WoW now is, in order to keep yourself moving forward after the level cap you have to get into an established guild. Wich, depending on how charismatic you are, can be tough as hell.


yea im not level 60 actually no where close but i have joined 2 guild's now one seemed cool but then they went to a lv requirement thingy the other has like 40 members but the most that i have seen online at once was like 6 http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_nono.gif

[KaFKa]

On 2006-01-07 22:11, eXo wrote:
yea im not level 60 actually no where close but i have joined 2 guild's now one seemed cool but then they went to a lv requirement thingy the other has like 40 members but the most that i have seen online at once was like 6 http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_nono.gif


Wehen I said established guild, I meant good Established guild http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[eXo]

On 2006-01-11 05:49, KaFKa wrote:


On 2006-01-07 22:11, eXo wrote:
yea im not level 60 actually no where close but i have joined 2 guild's now one seemed cool but then they went to a lv requirement thingy the other has like 40 members but the most that i have seen online at once was like 6 http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_nono.gif


Wehen I said established guild, I meant good Established guild http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif



Well god why didnt you just say so http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[eXo]

I recently applied to chaoticsouls, i really dont think i have a shot at getting actually,im pretty sure i have a much better chance of buying a one way ticket stright to hell with gasoline underwear on http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_nono.gif