Game Over..?

[Kano-Okami]

I know this may have been mentioned in another thread, but it was more-or-less off topic.

I've been wondering about what will be the penality for dying on PSU. At first, I thought I knew but the more I thought about it, the more I noticed that with each addition of PSO, the penalities aslo changed. So what are your thoughts on what happens when things are grim and your on that trail to the big light in the sky?

[Kimil]

Hmmm... I'm guessing a penalty moneywise, but they got rid of that in blue burst... Maybe they leave it at no penalty like in Blue Burst, or maybe if your entire party dies, you get a "Game Over" screen and are all returned to the lobby/city.

[Kano-Okami]

On 2006-01-03 15:19, Kimil wrote:
Hmmm... I'm guessing a penalty moneywise, but they got rid of that in blue burst... Maybe they leave it at no penalty like in Blue Burst, or maybe if your entire party dies, you get a "Game Over" screen and are all returned to the lobby/city.

I heard in Blue Burst, if you died, your Experience took a blow. And I think thats a harsh hit as it is, it takes a while to raise experience, expecially at higher levels.

[Kimil]

Oh... Actually that sounds like FFXI o.o

Hmmm... Another Thought: Maybe you have a 'rating' and maybe it drops for dieing, like Mag Syn ratios in PSO GC/XB versions.

[Brus]

Nope, in blue burst you loss XP if you died. I believe if you had no scape doll and were sent back to town it was 10% of the xp that you had gained for the next level, but if you were revived it was 5%.
so like if it took 10000xp tnl, and you had 100xp towards that therefore needing 9900 tnl, if you died you woulda lost 10% of the 100xp you'd gained, therefore needing 9910 tnl.

Oh and there was no delvling, thank god.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Brus on 2006-01-03 15:36 ]</font>

[Kano-Okami]

I know on PSO for the Dreamcast, if you died, you dropped your equipped weapon and cash..but after rampant theivery, sega canned that idea..Maybe PSU might have a money cut like the GC and Xbox ports..

[Blobmiester]

... took 10000xp tnl, and you had 100xp towards that therefore needing 9900 tnl, if you died you woulda lost 10% of the 100xp you'd gained, therefore needing 9910 tnl.

Not to say your bad at math, brus, but 10% outta 100 would leave 90 left. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Anyway. this 10% outta xp gained sounds like an excellent way to do an xp loss but not make it to tough.
Unless you had to get 1000000000 xp, and you had 999999999....Harsh. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif I don't feel like figuring that out, but it seems to be ALOT! http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Brus]

On 2006-01-03 16:25, Blobmiester wrote:

... took 10000xp tnl, and you had 100xp towards that therefore needing 9900 tnl, if you died you woulda lost 10% of the 100xp you'd gained, therefore needing 9910 tnl.

Not to say your bad at math, brus, but 10% outta 100 would leave 90 left. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Anyway. this 10% outta xp gained sounds like an excellent way to do an xp loss but not make it to tough.
Unless you had to get 1000000000 xp, and you had 999999999....Harsh. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif I don't feel like figuring that out, but it seems to be ALOT! http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif



I think I just wrote it confusing, blob. We're both right in that you would have 90xp, but that is off the 100xp you wouldve gained toward your next level which at base was 10000tnl. Thats why it went from needing 9900xp to lvl up to 9910xp to lvl up after dying. You lost 10% leaving only 90xp contributed to the total. sorry if i wrote it confusing hahaha.

Hopefully in PSU its either just a money penalty or an xp pentaly. Although I dont mind the xp penalty, if they put deleveling in that would make me very upset.

[Neith]

I have a feeling it'll be experience loss, like Blue Burst. It just seems to be how the RPG world is going now, a lot of games are using a similar penalty system. I'd love to see a system like City of Heroes.

In that, you gained 'Debt' upon dying. Basically, whenever you gained EXP from then on, a portion of it would go towards working off your debt. Once all debt was worked off, you'd get the full experience benefits again. Kind of like cutting your EXP to cover the EXP you've lost.

[Blobmiester]

OH! lol Yes that was confusing. And, a money penalty wouldn't be too bad. Even though people complain about, people complain about EVERY penalty. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Kano-Okami]

Anything is better then the one for dreamcast...gawd that was an aweful idea..If you died, while soloing online, not only would you have to go to the Hospital, but you'd also have to high-tail it back to your cash and weapon before you got a random disconnecting phonecall..
..Gawd I hated dial up ...

[Inazuma]

i remember i was playing ramar on dc ver and was using my newly aquired anti android rifle. well, i died from ult caves lilly megid and a racaseal stole my gun.

i think it was around that time i started playing force only... i would just use stuff like agni staves that were very common. sigh...

[littleman2347]

I think it will be xp because, depending on the way the economy goes they might cut out loosing money when you die. That would make the game hard if you lose exp.

[Dre_o]

I believe what will determin if it is money or EXP is, How much money will money be worth? Will it be more valuable, with the new customization and all? But that is another topic all together.

[littleman2347]

Who knows but if the economy goes cash insead of just rares i would want to keep my cash and items.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: littleman2347 on 2006-01-03 18:05 ]</font>

[Espilonarge]

Personally I would like weapons to drop again but instead have your name on it so no one can flog off with it. The same affect should happen with weapon/equipment drops, it'll prevent allot of theft and make it worthwild to actually go back and get what you lost, knowing no one else can take it. Kinda like custom tayloed clothing that no one else can wear. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Brus]

On 2006-01-03 18:41, Espilonarge wrote:
Personally I would like weapons to drop again but instead have your name on it so no one can flog off with it. The same affect should happen with weapon/equipment drops, it'll prevent allot of theft and make it worthwild to actually go back and get what you lost, knowing no one else can take it. Kinda like custom tayloed clothing that no one else can wear. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif



Bad idea because there are still random disconnects. Not often, but they do happen. I'd say the best thing is probably xp or meseta loss, or dropping all your meseta.

[OdinTyler]

Dont even get me started on XP debt. Thats 1 of the worst penalties I can think of. Almost 2 yrs of EQOA & I had some hellish debt on that game. Maximum debt for Lv60 is what...62.5mil or so? Since debt only takes off 50%/kill at a time, youd need 125mil XP just to kill it off completely. That could take a LONG time. If it comes to PSU, Im gonna be REAL upset. Then, be REAL cautious. LOL

[F-o-x]

I kinda like the idea of EXP debt. Although make it so if you were max level the full amount of exp went towards the debt.

[OdinTyler]

It wont be adjustable, it never is. Sshhh. Stop giving them ideas! http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[Brus]

If they jsut did what they did in blue burst, it should be fine. It was not stupidly cruel like it is in some game.

[Inazuma]

but the worst thing about losing exp when you die is, you cant ever challenge yourself. i dont wanna only play very easy areas.

[Kent]

Then gather up a good, intelligent team of players, and go into tougher areas than normal.

That worked out to be a lot of fun, in various versions of PSO.

I wouldn't mind an EXP penalty for dying. There has to be some kind of penalty for it, to make people not want to die, and make them want to get better at playing, so that they die less often...

Of course, the trick is to find a penalty that's big enough to make people not want to die, but not so big as to make people not want to play at all, or chicken into pitifully easy areas, of little or no threat to them.

[Niki]

On 2006-01-03 22:45, Kent wrote:
I wouldn't mind an EXP penalty for dying. There has to be some kind of penalty for it, to make people not want to die, and make them want to get better at playing, so that they die less often...
We can only hope so. After all, the point of playing in a 6-member team is...teamwork.

[Espilonarge]

Either way I think the best option is for EXP loss. This isn't PSO afterall since theres allot more freedom plus its a whole new game altogether. Lets just hope when we die that if our EXP is near the 0 mark we don't go back one level, now that would be a nightmare. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Espilonarge on 2006-01-04 00:18 ]</font>

[OdinTyler]

Exactly. Thats why I say NO XP DEBT! However, Kent youre looking for alternatives, as am I. What do you suggest?

[Kent]

I think a standard 5~10% EXP loss would be enough, assuming we don't need ridiculous amounts of EXP to level. But then again, knowing Sonic Team...

That's probably the best option for this type of game. If there was any severe weakness associated with being raised, it'd make a more action-oriented game like this, much less fun to play. In PSO, you just need to be healed after being raised, and you're good to go, minus some EXP, though.

[Sinue_v2]

I think XP debt or XP loss is probably the most effective and least frustrating way to go about having penalties. Ideally, penalties should not be in the game - but the problem comes when people who don't know how to play could give a rats-ass less about tactics or helping the team because there are no punishments for being a retarted noob. There's no incentive to really get better and learn the game. This was a major problem with PSO, IMO.

Losing weapons is too frustrating, and loosing Meseta probably won't be punishment enough since I doubt it's going to be very important in this game either.

[DeathMachine]

There was another thread on this, and I said hospital debt. Every time you are teleported to the medical center, you rack up medical bills, which you pay off over time. Better than losing XP.

[littleman2347]

Ya i would go with the xp loss but at like say you need 100.00xp to lvl and you get 300 exp from a monster and you get like 2 xp from that to fill up you xp meter depending on your lvl and lose 7 xp. That is how it is in this mmo im play from the compright now and it works real well.

[Kent]

How would you go about having to pay medical bills, though? I mean, how would they be enforced? If there's just debt to the hospital you have to pay off then how long would you have, to be able to pay it off?

The problem with that, is that people would eventually end up dying so much, that they have a debt they can't pay off. And if someone's broke, and has almost no income, what then? Just a huge bill that never gets paid off?

There's another thing about death penalties; they have to be simplistic enough, so that they're relatively static, or else it'll be too unfair and frustrating for players.

Coming from FFXI, and as a Force in PSO, I think monetary penalties are a very, very bad way of doing a death penalty. EXP loss, however, is something thatcan be regained without much trouble (just some time), whereas money, or even equipment, loss, can be excessively troublesome to get back.

[Nai_Calus]

...Since when was meseta ever hard to get a hold of? O_o; Zero always had a full bank and usually between 500-900k of it. Hell, on BB I had to give the stuff away because you couldn't LOSE it. XD

All it takes is a few minutes in Mine/Ruins/CCA/Seabed... Loot the shields and armors that drop, and sell those puppies and you're good to go for that next batch of Trifluids, and then some. *shrug*

Exp loss actually annoyed me. Meseta loss was an 'Oh well' thing.

[Shadow_Wing]

I believe XP lost is the best penalty for dying imo, esspcially if its based on the xp you have gained on that session (however the implimentations of such things might get a bit tricky). I think a range of between 5-10% (in FFXI its 8% with a cap at 2100xp lost) is something that would prolly work the best.

[littleman2347]

they would reposes there house and cars and weps http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif
srry for spelling

[ANIMEniac]

maybe the exp loss could be that half the exp since your last departure from the city gets taken. that way it is like you have learned the enimy, but not well enouf to defeat it, so you dont get as much exp. if this is confusing here is an ex. on PSO terms: from the pionere you go out and into the seabeds. during your time in the seabeds you gain 10000 exp, but you die, so you loose 5000. with that 5000 you go back to the same place and die w/o killing anything, you now loose 2500. That way it is never a tremendous loss but you dont want to kill 2 areas of enimies to have one area of exp taken.

[zandra117]

I think you should lose all the exp that you had gained in the last 15 minutes before you died but you cannot de-level.

[DeathMachine]

That's insane! Why would I want 6 hours of exp to go up in a puff of megid smoke? (Stupid megid. Stupid Ob/Del lilies)

What if you were piped down by a friend in time to fight a boss, just to have it taken away 15 mins later by a pain-in-the-butt monster?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DeathMachine on 2006-01-04 20:02 ]</font>

[Kimil]

No, I don't think there'll be a dept system, that'd be too much...

Universal Health Care all the way

[OdinTyler]

LOL Heres a good one. No cut-in chat for 15min. OMG I cant express my anger in a big cartoony face! (yes, Im being sarcastic now, & following) The rage sets in. It builds up. When this passes, my enemies shall pay...something like that. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Espilonarge]

Oh dear god, lets just hope we don't see something similer to those Megid Spitting Spaz Lillies. I can so see the complaints.

*Megid* ~you are dead~ *revive* *Megid* ~you are dead~ *revive* *Megid* ~you are dead~ *SMASH!!!!!* "Sega!!!!!!!!!!!!!" http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_argh.gif

[OdinTyler]

Well, I know for a fact one megid enemy is in the game. Theres a cinema where a whole army of various monsters is rushing towards some soldiers. Among them...

Hildetorrs.
Lots of them.
Be afraid. LOL

[Atayin]

I don't like it when penalties are too high. When you don't think you'll ever be able to gain back your hard-earned losses, sometimes that makes it tough to get back into the game.

On the other hand, I love it when there are tough penalties because it's such a rush when you know you've got something to lose. Sometimes I wanna play just for the challenge.. Especially when teamwork is involved. It's awesome when you rise above a challenge with your teammates, that's the ultimate feeling in an MMOG(in my humble opinion).

Here's to hoping that Sonic Team doesn't go overboard in either direction. Balance is everything in this aspect of the game in order to keep it interesting for some of us.

[OdinTyler]

So then what do you suggest? Dont say XP debt as thats been said already. Do you have any other ideas not brought to the table?

[Atayin]

On 2006-01-06 13:04, OdinTyler wrote:
So then what do you suggest? Dont say XP debt as thats been said already. Do you have any other ideas not brought to the table?




In order to "bring more ideas onto the table", I would need to have a better concept of the overall game. Some debt systems are better suited for different kinds of games.. A money debt system may work wonders in one game, but not in another.

We have a lot of information in regards to PSU's various systems and how it will play. However, I still don't feel that it's enough for me personally to gauge what an effective debt system would be. If I were to go and assume that PSU is almost exactly like PSO, then I would say that the idea of XP debt would turn me away a little.

But then again, PSU isn't PSO. So we'll just have to wait and see. But thanks for showing so much interest in my opinions, Tyler. I appreciate it.

[OdinTyler]

Of course, no problem. I just think in all the speculating we do we could come up with some alternative loss in dying & see if thats what the devs came up with. For all we know, theyll just revert to what was done in PSO. If its weapon loss, Im gonna make sure not to keep many of them on me. If its meseta, yep, its annoying, but that can always be regained. I just found it odd that on the GC version, you didnt drop money...it VANISHED. At least if a team member picked it up, you could reclaim it. Gone is gone & that kinda shocked me when I found out about that.

[OdinTyler]

Oooh wait, I know! How about something that was done way back in the beginning? You could go to the church & for a fee, you resurrect yourself? Youre probably thinking: what if I dont have enough money? Well, you could be punished by being forced to go XP without the use of weps/armor (it will be temporarily greyed out). Then, when youve accumulated enough cash, return to the church, & be restored to regular status? OK, it might be a bit complicated, but, it would be interesting to see how it plays out, right?

[Atayin]

On 2006-01-06 13:38, OdinTyler wrote:
Oooh wait, I know! How about something that was done way back in the beginning? You could go to the church & for a fee, you resurrect yourself? Youre probably thinking: what if I dont have enough money? Well, you could be punished by being forced to go XP without the use of weps/armor (it will be temporarily greyed out). Then, when youve accumulated enough cash, return to the church, & be restored to regular status? OK, it might be a bit complicated, but, it would be interesting to see how it plays out, right?



Absolutely. I actually never even thought about the concept of what happens when you die in PSU. Think about it.. in PSO, we would just respawn and go back to the tiny little pioneer ship.

The towns are HUGE now. And we'll be dealing with 3 different planets. There are lots of possibilities as opposed to the limitations presented by the old (or current) PSO games which focused mainly on just getting right back out into the field and killing again. Maybe there will be a more inventive consequence for death.

Perhaps there will be ordinary penalties for dying (such as XP loss), but maybe in town there will be a clone shop or something. So if we decided to pay a fee or invest some meseta into the event we DO die, we could keep our XP at the expense of our money. A system like that would be pretty fair..

It would allow you to chose. Money.. or XP? And seeing as how rare some weapons can be, I'd hate to see something like weapon or armor loss come back into play. Although, I'm sure there are some looters who would just loooove to see you drop your Ultimate Beast Sword +8.

[OdinTyler]

No, not cloning. That was too weird for me. True, its a flashback to PSII. However, it angered me how you could clone Nei a million times over, yet, after she fought Neifirst:

1. 'We cant clone someone that isnt human.' Funny, you could before.

2. 'Theres a hill not too far away that you could lay her to rest.' WHERE? Where is this hill?

All jokes aside, I was referring back to PS1. Since the C.O.G. is going to play a major factor in the story, it makes sense to revert back to the old ways. You could go to any local church & take care of business there. As you said, we now have 3 planets to consider. We wouldnt just necessarily just go back to the Guardians Colony. We'd probably just stay on the planet we were on & go from there.

[DeathMachine]

I always thought the ladies at the medical center stole it. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif They just pretended like it wasn't there in the first place.

[OdinTyler]

You never know. Those nurses could be too pretty for their own good. You never know if they swiped it off ya. Maybe their human DNA comes from Shir Gold...

[Vivid-Rein]

Personally, since the areas are so large, I would love to see a system where you could send a signal out when you're dead (and have no ways to revive) and a futuristic ambulance-esque vehicle would rush out to the field. After a minute or so, it would arrive (to be realistic?) and the nurses would jump out of the back and hoist your inside. Then, instead of having a boring loading screen, you can watch as the ambulance takes you back to the hospital, and enjoy the ride. ;D

But, for the penalty, I think money would be a better choice, since those nurses have to make money somehow. But, as long as the penalty isn't too high, I couldn't care less...

But, I would like to see the Church system back again. That was so fun~

[Rainbowlemon]

I think I'd rather like a death penalty similar to World of Warcraft, but perhaps not so harsh...maybe if all your stats were halved for 15 minutes or something. That way, its nothing permenant, but it does piss you off because it'll be much harder to kill things your level.

[Para]

heh that WoW death penalty sounds a bit more realistic.

Sometimes losing can be a good experience too...

I can understand why you might be "weaker" for a bit after defeat in combat but to lose experience I never understood.

[OdinTyler]

Well, I think having not played WoW, one of the penalties I came up with was good. The one where you cant wear any equipment for a bit. OK, its not the MOST realistic, but, its a penalty & its not overtly annoying. It would tie in well with the fact that there is now underarmor you customize when you make your char. Being forced to go around in your underarmor, having low protection would be quite the defensive penalty.

[DeathMachine]

Then some guys would purposely lose with their female characters. Although, I'm not complaining http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif , it wouldn't promote a good gaming mentality.

[OdinTyler]

Well, you can thank ST for that for the ability to customize underarmor. Why customize something youll never see again? See, they planned this! LOL

[DeathMachine]

That could be a reason for the 'Adjust-the-firmness' setting for chicks. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif We can only hope people won't abuse this 'ability'

[OdinTyler]

Now why would ppl do that? Maybe it gives em something to check out til they do face the inevitable game over of dying in game. Abuse that? Naaah. http://pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[therealAERO]

I'll abuse it, and you should too.

[SirAri]

On 2006-01-09 08:37, OdinTyler wrote:
Well, you can thank ST for that for the ability to customize underarmor. Why customize something youll never see again? See, they planned this! LOL



Underarmor...

I wonder what that going to look llike, anyway...

Hightech futuristic breifs? XD

[OdinTyler]

On 2006-01-13 05:48, therealAERO wrote:
I'll abuse it, and you should too.



Agreed. But, with a medical license, I shall view it will be from a purely clinical point of view...MWAHAHAHAHA LMAO