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View Full Version : Why they just start a goddamn beta test...



Para
Feb 16, 2006, 04:30 PM
All these delays sound like SEGA is still bouncing into bugs from time to time. The statement that they are trying to improve the online network stability sounds like the network and the server itself needs some work.

One of the best ways is to have an open beta test to stress test the servers. I mean if the servers aren't stable now... who can guarentee that they will be stable when SEGA takes on a bigger player database?

Not to mention... all these delays are probably making us pissed. An open beta would please the fans to some degree to see how progress is going for the game. Not to mention to build on the hype.

Maybe I'm just ranting...

Nash
Feb 16, 2006, 04:40 PM
Yeah I'm surprised at the lack of a beta test as well.

Especially with it being the first PSO on PS2, and also being the first one with cross-platform play. In-house can only test it so much.

DizzyDi
Feb 16, 2006, 04:40 PM
On 2006-02-16 13:30, Nites wrote:

Maybe I'm just ranting...



Probably.

Parn
Feb 16, 2006, 04:41 PM
Stress test isn't really all that necessary... Sonic Team already knows how much is needed to make a game run, as they've been doing it for years. It's more likely that their problems are along the lines of bugs that open up the potential for exploits. Consider: players worldwide bitched and moaned about how they never did anything with PSO, and now that they're taking however long it takes to try to make this game as awesome as possible, people still bitch and moan.

Damned if you do, and damned if you don't. My suggestion for everyone is to find something else to play in the meantime. Right now, I'm playing Everquest 2 which is surprisingly a decent MMORPG. My character is Meicyn (http://synbios.net/images/eq2_alt.jpg) on the Lucan D'Lere server if anyone feels like joining up.

Kano-Okami
Feb 16, 2006, 04:43 PM
My guess is that they have/will do an internal beta.

F-o-x
Feb 16, 2006, 05:04 PM
Parn makes a lot of sense. I personally don't care how long I have to wait as long as the game gets the care it so rightly deserves. I'd still be avidly playing GC PSO were it not for all the hacking/cheating.

Also I believe they did in fact have an internal beta test. Someone said they did in one of the other threads about a beta.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: F-o-x on 2006-02-16 14:05 ]</font>

YaLyn
Feb 16, 2006, 05:26 PM
.....It not fair to have a beta test...Thats means I'll be missing all the fun.

Nash
Feb 16, 2006, 06:01 PM
Any screenshots we see of Network mode are obviously screens of an ongoing internal beta-test. The people playing are most likely Sega/Sonic Team employees.

While not essential a public beta-test would be beneficial, and not merely from a stress-test point of view. The more people playing, the quicker problems would be identified. And the hardcore fans who've played hundreds of hours of the previous games are some of the best playtesters you could have. Also people not involved with the development on a daily basis would approach the game in a different way, and that may find bugs/exploits that Sega don't.

ajenteks
Feb 16, 2006, 06:10 PM
Whatever they're doing, it's working. They're finding the bugs and holding back the release until they get them ironed out, and that's what counts.

Tystys
Feb 16, 2006, 06:11 PM
I wanta Beta Test damnit!

ZulfiqarTheIV
Feb 16, 2006, 06:52 PM
The beta test starts soon...

Dre_o
Feb 16, 2006, 06:54 PM
On 2006-02-16 15:52, ZulfiqarTheIV wrote:
The beta test starts soon...


Under what evidence? Don't say things of this magnitude that will get people's hopes up. Unless, of course, you can provide a link.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dre_o on 2006-02-16 15:55 ]</font>

DizzyDi
Feb 16, 2006, 06:54 PM
r u sirius?1/1?1?!!?1!

OdinTyler
Feb 16, 2006, 07:43 PM
Seriously Z, you shouldnt say that. Only spread truth, not rumors. People get rabid about the truth as is. Rumors unfortunately make things worse.

Atayin
Feb 16, 2006, 08:34 PM
On 2006-02-16 15:52, ZulfiqarTheIV wrote:
The beta test starts soon...



Zulfiqar. You are too too cruel http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_nono.gif

Espilonarge
Feb 16, 2006, 08:54 PM
If they plan to do a stress test with PSU, it better not turn into something as bad as PSOBB.

The responce from Sega is herendous when they delt with issues ranging from n00bs acting like idiots to users crashing the servers (on purpose) while finding ways around Game Guard.

Hopefully this time around they'll take more responcibility as I quit PSOBB for those reasons.

Russ2576
Feb 16, 2006, 09:19 PM
All the bug finding and fixing in the world won't mean squat if they don't do anything about cheat devices.

And I don't understand why the need to constantly delay it because of bugs. Isn't that what downloadable patches are for(in addition to fixing game related things)? Are they delaying and delaying just to save themselves some work?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Russ2576 on 2006-02-16 18:22 ]</font>

Dre_o
Feb 16, 2006, 09:54 PM
On 2006-02-16 18:19, Russ2576 wrote:

And I don't understand why the need to constantly delay it because of bugs. Isn't that what downloadable patches are for(in addition to fixing game related things)? Are they delaying and delaying just to save themselves some work?



Patches won't mean squat if it gets hacked before they patch it up. Would you rather have moderate amount of hacked things as if they tried to patch, or no hacks and having to wait more.

ZulfiqarTheIV
Feb 16, 2006, 09:56 PM
Just go outside..

DizzyDi
Feb 16, 2006, 10:18 PM
On 2006-02-16 18:56, ZulfiqarTheIV wrote:
Just go outside..



Ahahaha. Or play other games?

OdinTyler
Feb 16, 2006, 10:27 PM
As much as Sega might delay to work on network issues, I think its a big mistake to not allow an outside beta test. As said before, the more ppl that work on it, the better. Sega (or any company) will only look for certain things before they consider the product finished. If you entice players with a beta test & allowing them to play in advance, you ask of them one thing: find ANY mistakes or errors they come across.
Given the chance to play early, one might jump at the chance to find something wrong & if an honest player, will report them immediately. Sega could continue to work on the network while we test it. Afterall, its a beta. Our chars wouldnt carry over to the main game, so its actually a worthwhile effort for the network we'd officially be on anyway.

Russ2576
Feb 16, 2006, 10:53 PM
On 2006-02-16 18:54, Dre_o wrote:


On 2006-02-16 18:19, Russ2576 wrote:

And I don't understand why the need to constantly delay it because of bugs. Isn't that what downloadable patches are for(in addition to fixing game related things)? Are they delaying and delaying just to save themselves some work?



Patches won't mean squat if it gets hacked before they patch it up. Would you rather have moderate amount of hacked things as if they tried to patch, or no hacks and having to wait more.



There's no such thing as a 100% hack free game. There will always be people with the know how, and nothing better to do than try and hack an advantage for themselves, or try to destroy a game just for kicks.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Russ2576 on 2006-02-16 19:56 ]</font>

Dre_o
Feb 16, 2006, 10:58 PM
On 2006-02-16 19:53, Russ2576 wrote:
There's no such thing as a 100% hack free game. There will always be people with the know how, and nothing better to do than try and hack an advantage for themselves, or try to destroy a game just for kicks.


Perhaps correct you are. But would you rather ST try their damndest to stop it or would you rather they half ass it and ruin the game for everyone?

Russ2576
Feb 16, 2006, 11:09 PM
On 2006-02-16 19:58, Dre_o wrote:


On 2006-02-16 19:53, Russ2576 wrote:
There's no such thing as a 100% hack free game. There will always be people with the know how, and nothing better to do than try and hack an advantage for themselves, or try to destroy a game just for kicks.


Perhaps correct you are. But would you rather ST try their damndest to stop it or would you rather they half ass it and ruin the game for everyone?



Well of course I don't want them to half ass it(kinda hard to do this time around). But at some point it just gets rediculous when you keep delaying because you wanna nix every single little bug you find.

I don't want it half assed, but at the same time, I don't want to see it Fable-lized either.

OdinTyler
Feb 16, 2006, 11:34 PM
Thats why I posted what I did. I think we do want Sega to do their best. Ultimately tho, it is OUR community & we should be able to make sure everything possible is being done. A beta test for us would be a good thing. If it doesnt happen, so be it. We're just being hopeful with a bit of concern.

Espilonarge
Feb 16, 2006, 11:39 PM
Well as I said earlier, I want to see a properly done beta test. PSOBB's was a failure because when people found a exploit, they went and abused it while Sega actually sat on there @$$'s and did nothing about it (and they still do even after all these months.)

kassy
Feb 17, 2006, 07:00 AM
My god, after the ludicrously titled US/EU PSO BB “beta test” all you players think you have what it takes to be a beta tester, when all the majority of you want to do is play the game sooner.

Just because you played PSO BB beta doesn’t mean you were a beta tester, the game was released several months before in JP, ample time to find bugs and what not, not to mention PSO is 5 years old, with only nuances changed in code over the years. The US/EU “beta” was not a beta test, it was a marketing strategy, period, a chance to give people a free trial and to create interest in the game, why the hell do you think they left exploits in even when they were reported? why the hell do you think they allowed us to keep our characters? To keep people playing. People still think they were realistically beta testing PSO BB when “realistically” all that that had been done margins of time in advance.

A server stress test is a pathetic reason to warrant a wide spread beta test, Sega and any other good publisher knows how to deal with server load when they release a retail game. If you’re using this as your excuse it only proves you simply want to play the game sooner. Have a little patience.

In house beta testing is more thorough than a lot of people are giving credit for, and just because their isn’t a public beta doesn‘t mean their isn‘t closed beta at work.

Maybe this time Sega will actually listen to the “hackers” who send in/tell ST of the loop holes they encounter. I’ve spoken with some big names in Blue burst who found the block crash among other exploits months before they were released publicly, and had reported them to Sega/Sonic Team, but they simply when unheard, as at the time Block crash wasn’t an issue for ST/Sega to be “concerned“ with, and they fails to do any about it. A lot of the big name “hackers” aren’t actually solely out to destroy Phantasy Star games, many simply like to discover the exploits, and in the past many have reported them directly to ST, yes, shock, horror! In most instances it’s the people down the food chain who pick up these exploits that are the majority of people who set out to affect other player’s experiences.

Nash
Feb 17, 2006, 08:12 AM
I was thinking more of the Episode I&II beta test before the Japanese launch. If that had included the offline mode as well, the infamous duping bug would probably have been found before launch. In-house playtesting is often more concerned with playability and stability than finding exploits. The final player has more to gain from finding them, so that's why they don't usually surface until after the release. Obviously with PSO's history I'd hope they were doing everything then can to build a robust system, but you can't help but worry.

By having no public beta I think they are taking the approach of keeping it out of the hands of hackers for as long as possible, not giving them a headstart, and so delaying any hacking of PSU once it's released. I just hope once it starts they have a system in place to deal with it, otherwise all these delays to get it right will be in vain. They can only 'listen to the hackers' once the hackers have the game.

OdinTyler
Feb 17, 2006, 10:26 AM
Kassy, I think youre being a bit harsh here. Not all of us were beta testers on PSO: BB. Also, you can tell from some of the people here who would make good testers. We'd actually report the bugs so as they can be taken out. True, that cant be said for everyone. But, at least some would be honest enough. I think you give in-house debugging too much credit. How many times have games (online & offline) been released when the company claimed they were fine? People found bugs, glitches, errors, you name it. If debugging were done better, maybe that wouldnt have happened.
Sure, thats a good reason to have an extended delay. However, it doesnt erase the fact that any company, including Sega, could benefit from others helping them. The only payment players would get is advanced playing. Also, if a company were smart & wanted to keep track of potential hackers during beta testing, everyone would be assigned a number. If that number were found causing probs, insta ban. Again, it wouldnt get rid of 100% of the probs, its something.

Oh & btw, Id suggest removing that pic. It could get you a warning if not banned from here. Not many may take kindly to such a pic on a forum for all ages.

GaijinPUnch
Feb 17, 2006, 11:10 AM
The problem is, Sega (of Japan anyway) doesn't take comments from beta testers. Beta tests that are done w/ Joe Blow, or in this case, Johnny Tanaka, are really just stress tests on the network. There's no questinairre or anything. They just try to hammer out big ass train wreck problems.

kassy
Feb 17, 2006, 01:22 PM
I do see where eveyone is coming from, in my opinion a wide spread public beta test isn't the answer, I'd be all for a closed US/EU beta, but then the major glicthes might be passed over by the average player.

The sad fact is the hardcore hackers/cheaters (what ever ya want to call them) find the flaws the majority of the time. ST really needs to listen to them.

Nash
Feb 17, 2006, 02:07 PM
You sound a bit bitter.

And the hardcore hackers/cheaters are people trying to become notorious in the only way they know how. And they don't care if it ends up wrecking the game if they gain their notoriety out of it.

Yes Sonic Team should listen to them, but if they found something better to do with their time Sonic Team wouldn't have to. The more I think about it, it's probably better there is no public beta test. There's bound to be people out to ruin PSU, and giving them a headstart in the form of a beta test would just speed that process up.

OdinTyler
Feb 17, 2006, 05:36 PM
I agree with you, Nash. However, if ppl are out to hack, theyre going to do it, be it now or later. Not everyone will be honest & say "Hey guys, get off your lazy asses & fix this before something bad happens!" You gotta look at it like this. To have a very limited beta test, be it just in Japan or even just in house is ALOT of blind faith. Its a 2 sided coin, neither side being entirely good or entirely bad. I just hope the right decisions have been made & if we're not included in a beta test, that they at least listen when we're playing the game. Thats not too much to ask.

Nash
Feb 17, 2006, 06:37 PM
Yeah, it is a gamble what ever Sega chooses to do. The main obstacle to hacking PSU will be it's newness though. It's new code, it's sending a lot more data over the network because it's broadband, and it will have a new way of saving the character data on the server.

That will take time for people to figure out, and a beta test would give them months to try and work it out. There's some people out there who might wait until it's launch day to try and bring it all down, to make the biggest name for themselves. I'd say it's better to have no beta than risk that happening. It could mean extra weeks or months of hack-free PSU for us.

If I was Sonic Team I'd pull a couple of programmers from another team inside Sega and make their job to try and hack PSU between now and the release date. And see how PSU's network team can handle it. Hopefully they will have a good patch system in place to handle changes as they're required.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Nash on 2006-02-17 15:43 ]</font>

OdinTyler
Feb 17, 2006, 09:19 PM
LOL Dont give ppl bad ideas now. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

DK
Feb 17, 2006, 09:25 PM
Hmm, as always theres a lot of mixed views on the issue. I think one of the main things to remember is that PSU is being released on the PS2 and the PC... the servers will be linked... ok so a PC can be patched with massive patches, the PS2 cant. If they are only allowing for 8mb worth of patches on the PS2(from what ive read its only an 8mb memory card they are saying you need).

8Mb isnt much in some respects, i would expect that Sonic Team are trying to deal with all the bugs etc that need to be dealt with client side, so that the 8mb can be used for anti hacks/exploits.

Hacking should be very difficult in PSU anyhow, with the online portion being totally seperate from the offline part of the game, technically(if they have coded it this way) they can happily patch the servers to deal with exploits not the client. However even with this they may still need that 8mb, for patching client side exploits which cant be fixed server side. Its very difficult to say how ST want to handel it... really only they know how seriously they are taking explots and hacking this time round(and looking at PSO for their own sake they better be taking it VERY seriously).

In reference to a beta... its got good and bad points, for me personally i would say dont have a public beta. As has been stated it could give hackers an early look at the game code... not to mention a free one. In house beta testing will be happening none stop, heck that could be why its being held back they might have found bugs or ways of hacking the online servers. Im speculating here but remember ST arnt exactly going to come out and admit that their testers found a way of hacking the game are they?

Well thats just my two pence *shrugs*

kassy
Feb 18, 2006, 07:33 AM
On 2006-02-17 14:36, OdinTyler wrote:
I just hope the right decisions have been made & if we're not included in a beta test, that they at least listen when we're playing the game. Thats not too much to ask.



I completely agree,

...either way, whatever happens; in regards to cheating on the PSO series in the past, we usually got a few months free from mass cheating when the games were intially was released, we should just treasure that time XD

PrinceBrightstar
Feb 18, 2006, 07:36 AM
I'm sure somewhere down the line Sega will be requiring us to purchase 32, 64, 128 mb USB keys.

Blackwaltz-R
Feb 18, 2006, 09:37 AM
Its prolly cuz they are tryn to make it more distinguishable from PSO before it releases http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

I also mentioned this in another thread that the releases date was anounced LAST YEAR so NO ONE should be suprised about delays since they were obviously were expressing more optimism than they were sense.