Will this fall to the stnadard cliches?

[ShinMaruku]

Will it?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ShinMaruku on 2006-06-02 22:27 ]</font>

[Saner]

cliches are in all games. even the one with the better stories.

all concepts of protagonists, antagonists, and backgrounds and events have been repeated again and again behind the different faces and scenarios.

no story can avoid cliches completely.

'you can only shape a ball of clay so many ways.' http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

[ShinMaruku]

I'm tlaking about the standard ones, they old "tried and true"
Some cna stay but some piss me off and they cna move away from them quite easily.

[Saner]

oh THAT. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

well um....some basic cliches could be funny or welcome if they are presented in a brilliant way.

but some you just have to put up with for the sake of the story. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

[ShinMaruku]

I blame msot of them on lazy writers.

[_Tek_]

cliche's or not, it depends on how well its displayed in the end.

[Kyuu]

Aye, it can be convincingly and truthfully argued that my favorite videogame story ever, Final Fantasy VII, was completely and utterly cliche and unoriginal. However, it's still my favorite story. What makes a story good are the details, the presentation, and the characters. The cliches, the good-versus-evil... big picture, it's pretty well impossible to point out anything that is truely original and has never been done before.

I think there's not much point in getting in an argument about it, since we know next to nothing about the story, except for the obvious overall storyline involving good and evil and a kidnapped little sister and a big fight sequence with the hero and the villain and all that jazz.

Just pray it doesn't suck. =)

[Tycho]

It'll obviously just be a cliché online-based futuristic space epic. XP

[Kyuu]

On 2006-06-03 01:25, Tycho wrote:
It'll obviously just be a cliché online-based futuristic space epic. XP


QFT!

Gotta love your cliche online-based futuristic space epic. ^_^

[Jack]

There'll be the cliched legions of characters with blue outfits and blonde spikey hair named after Dragonball Z characters, spelt in ThAt ShIt WaY oF tYpInG tHaT oNlY iDiOtS uSe.

[Brus]

On 2006-06-03 03:59, Jack wrote:
There'll be the cliched legions of characters with blue outfits and blonde spikey hair named after Dragonball Z characters, spelt in ThAt ShIt WaY oF tYpInG tHaT oNlY iDiOtS uSe.



on that note lets not forget the millions of (more accurately made) sephiroth, serfoth, sefiroth, sehfehrawth, siphyroth, sefeerotch, etc we'll see.

[Saffran]

And that is a problem because?

[ShinMaruku]

On 2006-06-03 03:59, Jack wrote:
There'll be the cliched legions of characters with blue outfits and blonde spikey hair named after Dragonball Z characters, spelt in ThAt ShIt WaY oF tYpInG tHaT oNlY iDiOtS uSe.


Talking about the story not the online.

[Lovejuice]

I'm sure PSU will be littered with predictable bits and the odd character stereotype. I mean, we've already seen bits of Mirei doing the whole "oh look at me be the oh-drifty-and-so-pure mage type and be so graceful with my green heal goo" (although, fair play to her, Ethan was just whacked by a car), but a big draw of PSU's appeal for me is the way everything is 'told'. The presentation, atmosphere and attention to detail have all helped pull us in so far prior to release (infact I'd go so far as to wager that these things were strong factors in PSO's survival over the many years).

A good example of this type of storytelling can be seen in a game like Beyond Good & Evil. The story is coated with many an obvious moment, hell, much (if not all) of the actual gameplay elements of the game are extremely watered down versions of other franchises - Zelda, Metal Gear Solid, and even Pokémon Snap come to mind - but the sheer beauty of world through its attention to every single moment (from all angles), and simple efforts to fully immerse the player in this outrageous world of bizarre races all come together to rise it above its endlessly re-hashed story of 'the special person who could but didn't know it' and being a 'cliché'.

Hopefully, PSU will also pull something like this off. I have no doubt about Sonic Team's ability to create a believable and atmospheric universe, here's hoping they don't scrimp on the small things that come together to make a game 'great', or rely on the much easier tactic of forcing pointless repetition (games like Ragnarok Online or Final Fantasy XI come to mind) for the sake of keeping us playing longer (of course, if the game can make us want to do things repeatedly of our own free will, then their job is done). I'm honestly not bothered if Ethan learns he is the chosen warrior and finds a magic glowy sword, or if Karen decides to stop being a stubborn mare after having her heart melted by the dashing hero who helps her quash her tragic past where her parents were eaten by cave trolls, or if Renvolt reveals himself to be Ethan's mother after stabbing Mirei in the chest because all along she had lying within her the 'holy power' to chop his balls off and stop his evil scheme for world domination. I'll believe it all, and love it all, if it's told with style (and in PSU's case, the style that's kept me in love with the Phantasy Star series).

EDIT: Errors be fixed.

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/8374/wauugh7kn.jpg
Waauuuugghhh!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Lovejuice on 2006-06-03 08:52 ]</font>

[Jack]

On 2006-06-03 05:22, Saffran wrote:
And that is a problem because?



You've got an effectively infinite amount of ways to make your character, and people choose to make copies of sub par characters from piss poor games and cartoons.

[ShinMaruku]

Unfortunatly most people are idots so that's expected.

[Brus]

I was thinking to myself for half a second "man, it would be pretty cool if the writer of skies of arcadia wrote PSU's story. What other games did she write again?" then half a second later I slapped my own forehead. very hard.

[Dre_o]

On 2006-06-03 07:08, Lovejuice wrote:
Hopefully, PSU will also pull something like this off. I have no doubt about Sonic Team's ability to create a believable and atmospheric universe, here's hoping they don't scrimp on the small things that come together to make a game 'great', or rely on the much easier tactic of forcing pointless repetition (games like Ragnarok Online or Final Fantasy XI come to mind) for the sake of keeping us playing longer (of course, if the game can make us want to do things repeatedly of our own free will, then their job is done). I'm honestly not bothered if Ethan learns he is the chosen warrior and finds a magic glowy sword, or if Karen decides to stop being a stubborn mare after having her heart melted by the dashing hero who helps her quash her tragic past where her parents were eaten by cave trolls, or if Renvolt reveals himself to be Ethan's mother after stabbing Mirei in the chest because all along she had lying within her the 'holy power' to chop his balls off and stop his evil scheme for world domination. I'll believe it all, and love it all, if it's told with style (and in PSU's case, the style that's kept me in love with the Phantasy Star series).


(sorry I didn't quote the whole thing)
You have a miraculous way with words my friend.

But I'm pretty sure we're going to see at least a FEW cliches, because I've already seen some myself.

[RoninJoku]

Yea... Unfortunately it can't be denied... The game will display cliches... As all games/movies/books/stories do... I can only hope that the game isn't too incredibly cookiecutter... And of course (as many have said already) if they present it in a good way, we may not even notice the cliches so easily...

As long as the end boss isn't some weird amalgamation of people, a spaceship, and butterfly/angel wings.... Maybe it's just my imagination, but sooo many RPGs I seem to play seem to mash all those things together to form the end boss, and it totally pisses me off...

[Saner]

On 2006-06-03 15:02, RurouniJoku wrote:
Yea... Unfortunately it can't be denied... The game will display cliches... As all games/movies/books/stories do... I can only hope that the game isn't too incredibly cookiecutter... And of course (as many have said already) if they present it in a good way, we may not even notice the cliches so easily...

As long as the end boss isn't some weird amalgamation of people, a spaceship, and butterfly/angel wings.... Maybe it's just my imagination, but sooo many RPGs I seem to play seem to mash all those things together to form the end boss, and it totally pisses me off...



LOL!!! ya especially the 'wings' type of final bosses. wow so many to count.

but if it looks cool, that's okay! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif



but anyways cliches can't be avoided but I really recommend to Maruku to never be hypercritical about things you see in the story, otherwise you'll never give the chance for the game to at least try to be believeable and unique.

Just consider 'forgetting' the other games/stories you seen and just see it from Ethan's perspective. This is his first time ever going through an experience like this. so at least pretend its your first story or something. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Saner on 2006-06-03 16:09 ]</font>

[Kyuu]

On 2006-06-03 16:04, Saner wrote:

Just consider 'forgetting' the other games/stories you seen and just see it from Ethan's perspective. This is his first time ever going through an experience like this. so at least pretend its your first story or something. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

This is a very good way to approach any new story. *applauds Saner*

[Authenticate]

As long as the game is fun to play I'll be happy.

/ranty wall of text incoming, duck and cover.

I just hope there isn't a lot of singing. I hate singing in games. That and scenes where people die in the middle of a fight and everyone is like "NOOOoooo" and the main character runs over to hold them while screaming "Don't die. Please don't die!" and the whole time the enemy is just standing there. -_-; Deal with the enemies first, then get emo. Also those scenes where someone holds the dead person and screams, that's just over reacting. I also hate glory hogs. Frickin' hate stories that make the main guy look like a bad ass and the rest of his party look like their side kicks. The only person who should look bad ass is the old guy who knows kung fu,.

[ShinMaruku]

Sonic Team is not know for stories so if they eff up again, I'll light up their asses.

[Saner]

well it looks like a lot more care and work has been put into this game's story because as you can see it encompasses more characters than a typical Sonic Team game.

They expanded it into a solar system than a single planet, and there are all of these FACTIONS involved.

and each race has a rich history that is related to the planets and cultures. And the driving forces within the story look to be very profound.

All of this plus the magnificent cutscenes they have shown and stuff, this story looks like it will be a very epic and interesting one, even if the theme has been seen before.

[ShinMaruku]

Exacltly, if they eff up, I'll oxidize them!

[Nuclearranger]

I thought sonic A1-2 had great storys...

[DurakkenX]

i doubtr it will be very "epic" as the offline mode regaurdless of what ST says was designed around the online mode and prolly didn't put in very many 'secrets' and given that they say it's about 40 hours worth of content most people will be done and finished with it in less than a week. Epic games are not finished in a week on a first run through

[ShinMaruku]

Which is exactly why I'm gonna light their asses again for flubbing stuff again

[Kyuu]

On 2006-06-04 13:57, DurakkenX wrote:
i doubtr it will be very "epic" as the offline mode regaurdless of what ST says was designed around the online mode and prolly didn't put in very many 'secrets' and given that they say it's about 40 hours worth of content most people will be done and finished with it in less than a week. Epic games are not finished in a week on a first run through

How do you mean? For example, Final Fantasy VII could be beat in around 20 hours if you went straight through and knew what you were doing, and 30-40 for your average player. I'd definitely have to say that FFVII was still an epic game. (My play throughs usually run 80 hours or so, but that's because I always breed a gold chocobo and beat Emerald and Ruby Weapons... not to mention leaving the game on for hours at a time while I go off and grab something to eat or whatever.)

I'm willing to guess that anyone who is interested in experiencing all PSU's offline mode has to offer will probably put in more than 40 hours. And in any case, knowing what we know about the story (next to nothing), it's pretty well impossible to know whether or not it's any good.



On 2006-06-03 08:53, Jack wrote:

You've got an effectively infinite amount of ways to make your character, and people choose to make copies of sub par characters from piss poor games and cartoons.

o_0 The reason there are so many Sephiroth/Cloud clones is because so many people absolutely loved that game. Like myself. Just because you think FFVII and whatever else is piss poor doesn't mean everyone does. However, you still won't find me using names from that game. It's too unoriginal and obvious. I have used names from other games/books before, though. (Durandal, Galadriel (before the movie came out, then I stopped using it), etc.)


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kyuu on 2006-06-04 16:01 ]</font>

[DurakkenX]

Epic is relative to actual length of the full story. The full story of FFVII is incredably long and full of detail as well as secrets and such that unless you know where everything is and memorized it will take hours to complete.

PSU most likely will be very easy to run through without knowing anything and discover everything as well as see all of the story. Not saying it absolutely will be, but most likely.


the reason people find characters named certain ways disgusting is because it uncreative and everyone does it. And people who are that obsesive over it are usually the young people that haven't even experienced what most people consider the greatest games ever and claim FF7 is the without a doubt greatest thing ever. Those people are also usually not all that smart and fanboys which are annoying to begin with without the other part.

[Saner]

On 2006-06-04 13:57, DurakkenX wrote:
Epic games are not finished in a week on a first run through



Epic games were beaten in a longer period of time back then because when FF7 came around, that was most people's first RPG, so the very nature of level building and problem solving became a advanced task for its time to finish it and discover the side things.
Plus nowadays f.a.q.s. and guides really speed up people's progress in games more than ever before.


we are older now so we finish games a lot faster than before. not necessarily because the games have become shorter or lesser in size.

a offline story can be epic and not have to involve 80 hours of gameplay and side things. PSU will surely have a reasonable estimated length and size to it. as well as side things.

How fast a person complete it depends on their experience with these kinds of games, how they go about moving forward, and if they choose to look for side things or extras, talking to everyone, revisiting missions/locations, etc. etc.



so a game finished within the first week can still be quite epic. realistically we can never feel the length of time it actually took for the heroes to get to the finale of their adventure.

but at least the story delivers the main points, and we can just enjoy whatever there is to see.


I'm finish games pretty quick and I think I might be able to finish this one in 5 days, or maybe 2 or 3 days if I play almost non-stop.


movie-length wise, I feel this game like other cinematic RPGs, are truly epic because 5+ hours worth of cutscenes, (minus the battles and missions you go through, etc.,) that's a Whopper of an epic and lenghy story right there!!

even Ben-Hur wasn't as long as the 20-40+ hours you might take to complete PSU's offline story. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

and don't forget the offline story is just one part of PSU's legacy. the online campaign takes place AFTER the offline story, so if you manage to get online, there's more epic adventures to experience! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[DurakkenX]

an epic also usually has depth and i don't think PSU will deliver that... ST hasn't been able to do that in any game including PSO that i've played by them. So like i said i doubt it will be that epic of a story. Don't mistake though that what i'm saying is i don't think PSU won't be good or even great, but rather that it just won't be epic or have anything hidden or unexpected.

Time it takes to beat a game there is still a base line there... like CT is prolly about 20 hours to get everything once you know how to do it all and memorize it. Games since PSX have steadilly decreasing in difficulty as well and not because im getting older, but in general games have become increasingly worthless in design and scope.

[Brus]

I think that its less the actual length and more so the presentation the story, and so far from the looks of it I'm pretty impressed with overall presentation of single player mode. I think the players speaking and use of cutnchat during important battles is an absolute genius thing in terms of presenting the story. They've incorporated cutscenes into playing rather than leaving you idle and because of small things like this I think it'll be a better game as a whole. Another example of a game that did this was Metal Gear Solid (the first one), during all the boss battles there was story smack talk and things going on, but still leaving you in control and the presentation was pretty awesome. I'm not saying that there shouldnt be cutscenes at all but I just think that the inclusion of them during playing gives more of the illusion that you are actually involved in the drama/action rather than just controlling the character now and then and watching things happen inbetween.

Also for the most part, despite STs lackluster games of recent, it really does look like they've put alot of heart into this game.


the reason people find characters named certain ways disgusting is because it uncreative and everyone does it. And people who are that obsesive over it are usually the young people that haven't even experienced what most people consider the greatest games ever and claim FF7 is the without a doubt greatest thing ever. Those people are also usually not all that smart and fanboys which are annoying to begin with without the other part.
I completely agree with you. It's not so much a hatred or disgust for the characters themselves, but soooo much more for what kind of people they now represent.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Brus on 2006-06-04 18:11 ]</font>