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Sgt_Shligger
Jul 7, 2006, 04:54 PM
1: For Beast rangers, could they still use weapons like rifles and shots or were they the only class that couldn't?

2: For guns... do the bullets keep going on or do they stop like they did in PSO?

3: Could mechguns shoot at long range? If so, did the bullets spray in a cone or just a line and missed?

4: For ranger special attacks like burning bullet, did you trigger it or was it a built-in status thing that activated whenever?

Kupi
Jul 7, 2006, 04:58 PM
I believe I can answer #1 and #4. For #1, Beasts could use all weapon types available to Rangers. Race never affects weapon proficiencies; only Type does. For #4, the "Bullets" are latent effects on the weapon. That is, they happen automatically every time you fire; having a Burning Bullet equipped on a gun makes it deal fire damage, cause burning, and deal more damage at the expense of accuracy with every shot.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kupi on 2006-07-07 15:00 ]</font>

Sgt_Shligger
Jul 7, 2006, 11:55 PM
Well thank you... but can someone answer my other two questions <.>

RFB
Jul 8, 2006, 06:55 AM
Bullets.. stop? or keep going? o_O? You mean, if they go trough enemies or stop at them? if that's the question, then the bullets stop at the enemy they hit.

Mechs dont shoot at long range, and they shoot in a straight line.

Bullets: you have to buy them. Then you "equip" the bullet into the weapon (Note: you dont lose the bullet. I had 4 freezing rifles, and the 4 had the same freezing bullet equipped). And from that point, every shot you make has an extra elemental damage (or damage reduction, if the enemy you're shooting is resistant to that element) and a bit of a chance to cause a status effect.
The more you shoot that elemental bullet for that kind of weapon, the higher the bullet will level, and therefore, the status effect chance will slightly increase.

Alisha
Jul 8, 2006, 07:01 AM
On 2006-07-08 04:55, RFB wrote:
Bullets.. stop? or keep going? o_O? You mean, if they go trough enemies or stop at them? if that's the question, then the bullets stop at the enemy they hit.

Mechs dont shoot at long range, and they shoot in a straight line.

Bullets: you have to buy them. Then you "equip" the bullet into the weapon (Note: you dont lose the bullet. I had 4 freezing rifles, and the 4 had the same freezing bullet equipped). And from that point, every shot you make has an extra elemental damage (or damage reduction, if the enemy you're shooting is resistant to that element) and a bit of a chance to cause a status effect.
The more you shoot that elemental bullet for that kind of weapon, the higher the bullet will level, and therefore, the status effect chance will slightly increase.



doesnt that mean a ranger would suffer an ata hit on all shots fired unless the didnt have an elemental bullet equiped?
if thats the case im gonna lol @ all non ra's using guns.

Ryna
Jul 8, 2006, 08:13 AM
2. Bullets will only hit a target within a specific range. That range will depend on the gun-type. However, you may see the bullets travel off into the distance.

3. Machineguns are short-range weapons.

tank1
Jul 8, 2006, 09:40 AM
Ive got a question aswell. If you equip dual pistols is it possible to have a different element bullet in each gun e.g one with fire and one with ice?

Ryna
Jul 8, 2006, 09:42 AM
On 2006-07-08 07:40, tank1 wrote:
Ive got a question aswell. If you equip dual pistols is it possible to have a different element bullet in each gun e.g one with fire and one with ice?


Nope. The same element will be on both guns.

tank1
Jul 8, 2006, 09:45 AM
Dang guess you cant have it all thanks for telling me.

Nuclearranger
Jul 8, 2006, 11:28 AM
Is there a limit of bullets you can use on one equip? As in you buy a thunder or somthing is it good for only 2500 shots? If it isnt then couldnt you just buy them all and be done with that store?

F-o-x
Jul 8, 2006, 12:14 PM
On 2006-07-08 05:01, Alisha wrote:

doesnt that mean a ranger would suffer an ata hit on all shots fired unless the didnt have an elemental bullet equiped?



This is the question I've been meaning to ask as well... I was under the impression that a Ranger's "bullets" activated randomly while firing the gun. Will a Ranger have lowered accuracy at all times while a bullet PA is equipped?

mechatra
Jul 8, 2006, 01:07 PM
^ Yus, when you equip a elemental bullet to a gun, it overwrites the normal firing option, and creates an elemental weapon. So whenever you have a bullet art on a gun you will be using it with lowered accuracy, but as the photon art levels up this accuracy drop will slowly rise.

Kupi
Jul 8, 2006, 02:43 PM
On 2006-07-08 09:28, NuclearRanger wrote:
Is there a limit of bullets you can use on one equip? As in you buy a thunder or somthing is it good for only 2500 shots? If it isnt then couldnt you just buy them all and be done with that store?



Don't think of a "Bullet" as a traditional round of ammunition. It's an equippable effect on every single shot you fire that never exhausts. It's like the way that Forces may run out of PP, but they'll never run out of Foie. Once you've learned it, you've learned it. End of story.

RFB
Jul 8, 2006, 03:38 PM
What accuracy drop? No, no, no, accuracy DOES NOT DROP, the bullet level ups dont increase accuracy, they increase the chance of status effects. ATA is NOT affected by equipping an elemental bullet!

I guess I better start from the beggining, and do a long explanation:

Elemental bullets can be bought in the PA shop, as well as Photon Arts and Techs. There is one elemental bullet per element-guntype combo, as in, you have ice-rifle bullet, ice-handgun bullet, ice-shot bullet, then thunder-rifle bullet.... ect.

I'll use ice-rifle for my example (since it was the one I used the most). Say I have 4 rifles. But just one elemental bullet. Well guess what, it doesnt matter. I can equip the elemental bullet in the 4 rifles, and have all 4 shooting ice bullets. And the elemental bullet wont be used up. If I discard 2 of my actual rifles because I got my hands on 2 new ones, I can use the very same elemental bullet I bought X days ago in these 2 new rifles.

Also, I can take out the elemental bullet off a rifle anytime I want, in case I want to shoot normal bullets for some reason (like fighting some ice-resistant mobs) and after the fight, put the elemental bullet back in. No problem.

What the elemental bullet does: It does not affect ATA, DFP, EVP... nothing. Except ATP, but that depends on the elemental resistances of the foes. But the good thing about elemental bullets, is the status effects. It does not lower hit chance!

When you first equip the ice-bullet in your first rifle, you start with a basic (this is a guess, I dont remember what was the initial %) 10% chance of freezing the enemy. If you keep shooting ice bullets, as long as they hit (note: they do NOT have to cause the status effect), the elemental bullet will gain experience, slowly, and eventually level up. Every level up meant a +1% chance for the status effect to happen. It increases the chance for the status effect, not the hit chance!

What if you get another rifle? your ice-bullet was at level 9, but this is a new rifle. Will the % be kept for this rifle? Yes, it is kept.

And no, there is no limit to the ammount of shots you can do with the elemental bullets, they dont run out ever.

Think thats all.

Sgt_Shligger
Jul 8, 2006, 03:59 PM
Well, I am probably going to make a Rabeast for the fun of it. They have the highest ATP out of the ranger class and the ATA may be lower but from what I have heard, the lowered ATA isn't that bad. I plan on going melee more than using a gun... much like I did in PSO >.>

Alisha
Jul 8, 2006, 06:59 PM
On 2006-07-08 13:38, RFB wrote:
What accuracy drop? No, no, no, accuracy DOES NOT DROP, the bullet level ups dont increase accuracy, they increase the chance of status effects. ATA is NOT affected by equipping an elemental bullet!

I guess I better start from the beggining, and do a long explanation:

Elemental bullets can be bought in the PA shop, as well as Photon Arts and Techs. There is one elemental bullet per element-guntype combo, as in, you have ice-rifle bullet, ice-handgun bullet, ice-shot bullet, then thunder-rifle bullet.... ect.

I'll use ice-rifle for my example (since it was the one I used the most). Say I have 4 rifles. But just one elemental bullet. Well guess what, it doesnt matter. I can equip the elemental bullet in the 4 rifles, and have all 4 shooting ice bullets. And the elemental bullet wont be used up. If I discard 2 of my actual rifles because I got my hands on 2 new ones, I can use the very same elemental bullet I bought X days ago in these 2 new rifles.

Also, I can take out the elemental bullet off a rifle anytime I want, in case I want to shoot normal bullets for some reason (like fighting some ice-resistant mobs) and after the fight, put the elemental bullet back in. No problem.

What the elemental bullet does: It does not affect ATA, DFP, EVP... nothing. Except ATP, but that depends on the elemental resistances of the foes. But the good thing about elemental bullets, is the status effects. It does not lower hit chance!

When you first equip the ice-bullet in your first rifle, you start with a basic (this is a guess, I dont remember what was the initial %) 10% chance of freezing the enemy. If you keep shooting ice bullets, as long as they hit (note: they do NOT have to cause the status effect), the elemental bullet will gain experience, slowly, and eventually level up. Every level up meant a +1% chance for the status effect to happen. It increases the chance for the status effect, not the hit chance!

What if you get another rifle? your ice-bullet was at level 9, but this is a new rifle. Will the % be kept for this rifle? Yes, it is kept.

And no, there is no limit to the ammount of shots you can do with the elemental bullets, they dont run out ever.

Think thats all.



does this apply to photon art "skills" for hunters as well meaning those %'s listed are just attached to the status effects associated with them?

Lyrise
Jul 8, 2006, 07:02 PM
On 2006-07-08 13:38, RFB wrote:
What accuracy drop? No, no, no, accuracy DOES NOT DROP, the bullet level ups dont increase accuracy, they increase the chance of status effects. ATA is NOT affected by equipping an elemental bullet!

I guess I better start from the beggining, and do a long explanation:

Elemental bullets can be bought in the PA shop, as well as Photon Arts and Techs. There is one elemental bullet per element-guntype combo, as in, you have ice-rifle bullet, ice-handgun bullet, ice-shot bullet, then thunder-rifle bullet.... ect.

I'll use ice-rifle for my example (since it was the one I used the most). Say I have 4 rifles. But just one elemental bullet. Well guess what, it doesnt matter. I can equip the elemental bullet in the 4 rifles, and have all 4 shooting ice bullets. And the elemental bullet wont be used up. If I discard 2 of my actual rifles because I got my hands on 2 new ones, I can use the very same elemental bullet I bought X days ago in these 2 new rifles.

Also, I can take out the elemental bullet off a rifle anytime I want, in case I want to shoot normal bullets for some reason (like fighting some ice-resistant mobs) and after the fight, put the elemental bullet back in. No problem.

What the elemental bullet does: It does not affect ATA, DFP, EVP... nothing. Except ATP, but that depends on the elemental resistances of the foes. But the good thing about elemental bullets, is the status effects. It does not lower hit chance!

When you first equip the ice-bullet in your first rifle, you start with a basic (this is a guess, I dont remember what was the initial %) 10% chance of freezing the enemy. If you keep shooting ice bullets, as long as they hit (note: they do NOT have to cause the status effect), the elemental bullet will gain experience, slowly, and eventually level up. Every level up meant a +1% chance for the status effect to happen. It increases the chance for the status effect, not the hit chance!

What if you get another rifle? your ice-bullet was at level 9, but this is a new rifle. Will the % be kept for this rifle? Yes, it is kept.

And no, there is no limit to the ammount of shots you can do with the elemental bullets, they dont run out ever.

Think thats all.



You do realize that you are completely off on the accuracy comments? It DOES drop when you link an art to a gun. Why you might not think that it drops is for 2 reasons.

1. The drop is applied to the attack itself, NOT your stats. You can NOT deny this, otherwise the area in the PA status for accuracy is pointless. (don't tell me this is chance of status infliction, I can read what it says, and if you still believe it's infliction success rate, you're out of your mind, as 47% would have me freezing more stuff than I should have been.) All the status screen has as far as percentages go, is 攻撃力 (which is attack power), and 命中力 which is accuracy. There is NO infliction rate stat. In fact, I don't even know where you got that every level up is another +1% on the infliction rate.

2. You are speaking in terms of Ranger Forms. Their accuracy modifiers are already high, and rifle accuracy is also even higher which makes it nigh impossible to miss. That's why you feel that your accuracy is NOT dropping. Only a Ranger Form can use a rifle, no other class. Try the same thing with a Force, equip a bow, and use an element shot, you're really going to feel it when you start missing a LOT.

To top off this point, accuracy on your PA does indeed raise when you level up the B.Art, as well as attack power boost, and status severity (Ever try using Burn lv.4? It hurts, a LOT).

As for using a normal shot, there are 3 reasons for this:

1. You don't have an appropriate element for the enemies you are fighting or you have elements that the monsters in your current area are strong against. (You've mentioned this with your ice example).

2. You aren't in a Ranger Form, and you seem to be missing a lot. Lv.1 B.Arts for handguns drop your final accuracy STAT by 53%, you will be missing a LOT.

3. You want/need to to conserve PP. By linking your gun with B.Arts, you will be expending more PP per shot than if you were firing normally, sometimes by double the amount.

Other than the accuracy issue, everything else was dead-on correct.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Lyrise on 2006-07-08 17:24 ]</font>

Lyrise
Jul 8, 2006, 07:07 PM
Sorry for the DP, but after that large mess that is my last post, I figure it's cleaner to address this in a new post.



On 2006-07-08 16:59, Alisha wrote:

does this apply to photon art "skills" for hunters as well meaning those %'s listed are just attached to the status effects associated with them?



Nope, those percentages listed are indeed messing around with your attack power and accuracy. If there is a status attached to it, it will tell you, as well as the severity (in levels) of the status. What PA status screens do NOT tell you is the infliction rate. However, there's speculation that your spirit stat is the one that modifies infliction rate.

RFB
Jul 8, 2006, 07:51 PM
On 2006-07-08 17:02, Lyrise wrote:
You do realize that you are completely off on the accuracy comments? It DOES drop when you link an art to a gun. Why you might not think that it drops is for 2 reasons.

1. The drop is applied to the attack itself, NOT your stats. You can NOT deny this, otherwise the area in the PA status for accuracy is pointless. (don't tell me this is chance of status infliction, I can read what it says, and if you still believe it's infliction success rate, you're out of your mind, as 47% would have me freezing more stuff than I should have been.) All the status screen has as far as percentages go, is 攻撃力 (which is attack power), and 命中力 which is accuracy. There is NO infliction rate stat. In fact, I don't even know where you got that every level up is another +1% on the infliction rate.

2. You are speaking in terms of Ranger Forms. Their accuracy modifiers are already high, and rifle accuracy is also even higher which makes it nigh impossible to miss. That's why you feel that your accuracy is NOT dropping. Only a Ranger Form can use a rifle, no other class. Try the same thing with a Force, equip a bow, and use an element shot, you're really going to feel it when you start missing a LOT.

To top off this point, accuracy on your PA does indeed raise when you level up the B.Art, as well as attack power boost, and status severity (Ever try using Burn lv.4? It hurts, a LOT).


Well, I remember playing with you twice or so during closed beta, and I remember that you are quite a capable japanese reader, or at least thats the impression I got from you... so whatever you say is probably 500% more accurate than whatever I can say.

I admit my mistakes. If you say it's that way, then it's probably that way. (And no, I didnt ever notice my shots missing more than normal because of the elemental bullets o_O guess it paid off to be a RAcast)

And no, never tried to use fire bullets level 4, except for the shot... but the shot has quite a sucky base attack power, so I didnt really notice an improvement.

Sgt_Shligger
Jul 8, 2006, 07:57 PM
But wereshots as useful as they were in PSO for croud control?

Alisha
Jul 8, 2006, 08:28 PM
On 2006-07-08 17:57, SgtShligger wrote:
But wereshots as useful as they were in PSO for croud control?



from what ive seen so far the crowds were a lot smaller .
id say it would almost be like comparing ult ruins to ult seabed. i rarely saw in videos situations where they were dealing with more than 3 enemies. but it could be different in stages that werent available in the beta and at higher rank missions.

hypersaxon
Jul 8, 2006, 08:33 PM
The amount of enemies in missions might vary depending on the size of the party, all of the videos I've seen were of a single person playing so that could account for the lack of monsters. Maybe with a full party of six you'll see a lot more enemies, and thus more incentive to have more party members since you'd be getting more exp.

RFB
Jul 8, 2006, 09:47 PM
There were crowds bigger than just 3 enemies. Parum Relics had a lot of 5+ mobs groups.

As for using guns for crowd control, I'd say thats almost the primary goal for a ranger in PSU. You arent going to deal as much damage as a FO, no matter what, and in most cases, HUs will also deal a greater damage.

But, RAs had a higher chance of creating status effects on the enemies, and given that ice elemental bullets freeze the enemy, and thunder elemental bullets paralyze the enemy, then I think the best you can do for your group, is to try and inflict status effects on as many mobs as possible. That, and trying to keep mobs busy when they get closer to other party members, and in case of emergency, try to be the meatshield of FOs.



Oh! and killing flying mobs. They seemed to be quite weak against guntype weapons!

Lyrise
Jul 8, 2006, 10:43 PM
On 2006-07-08 17:51, RFB wrote:

And no, never tried to use fire bullets level 4, except for the shot... but the shot has quite a sucky base attack power, so I didnt really notice an improvement.



I'm just referring to the status infliction and it's severity level, not the PA level. i.e. Burn, shock, freeze, silence, plague, etc. At Lv.3 they work well, but beyond that they do some really serious damage to the opposition, damagewise and/or statuswise. There were times in beta were I could just keep shooting monsters till they were combusted, and leave them alone, as the burn would finish the job. (4+ is that strong) Freeze lv.4 lasted well over 10 seconds when it happened.

Relating to damage output and status infliction though, any B-Art that inflicts burning is a very good choice for any Ranger, since it's damage modifier is the highest of all the elements, and inflicting combustion status not only makes you look cool, it's also damaging, to the point where you will almost depend on the status itself should the defense of a monster prove to be too high. Sure it may also have the greatest accuracy penalty of all the elements, but like you mentioned, as a ranger, you will definitely not notice it, and as it goes up in levels, it becomes even harder to miss a single shot.

I think the one of the most important things about Rangers is that they can completely snipe out the tech using monsters. Anybody who's ever played Mizuraki knew how dangerous it was with all the barta flying everywhere, knowing that if they were to freeze they could be in serious trouble. That and getting debuffed all the time was annoying too, I think its safe to say that anyone who was there spent half their time under some kind of debilitation. Being able to clean out monsters that cast techs before they got into range is a real lifesaver.

Sgt_Shligger
Jul 9, 2006, 12:13 AM
Hmmm---

As a ranger, how was ATP? Could you melee well or was it pretty suicidal? I plan on making either a RAbeast or RAnewm but... I don't know how great the damage/accuracy difference will be.

Avion
Jul 9, 2006, 12:32 AM
Does anyone have information (or know where I can find info) on how the element stuff works for hunter(close-range) weapons?

Kupi
Jul 9, 2006, 12:45 AM
On 2006-07-08 22:13, SgtShligger wrote:
Hmmm---

As a ranger, how was ATP? Could you melee well or was it pretty suicidal? I plan on making either a RAbeast or RAnewm but... I don't know how great the damage/accuracy difference will be.



Only considering the starting stats, this is what I see:

- Overall, the Rangers have the best ATA and EVP.
- Their ATP and HP are about halfway between Hunters and Forces
- Their DFP is nearly as bad as a Force's.
- They have marginally better END than Hunters and Forces.

So, by my interpretation: they're balanced against having a heavy penalty to their ATA at all times (instead of just on certain special attacks), so you're probably going to have far, far more ATA than necessary to hit. Your ATP, while not at Hunter levels, would at least be passable for damage dealing. Unfortunately, the mid-range HP and bad DFP mean that you wouldn't have anywhere near the capacity for taking damage that you'd have as a Hunter. Perhaps that EVP might help alleviate a bit of it, but given PSO's precedent, I wouldn't count on it. Finally, consider the fact that Hunters simply get better weapons for melee damage (Rangers get, what, Sabers, Daggers, and Spears?) and a higher cap for melee Photon Arts, and it looks to me like if you want to fight on the front lines, you really ought to be a Hunter. Meleeing, for a Ranger, is a backup plan for when you run out of PP on your guns.

But, hey, that's only at the start. The endgame will turn out different, I'm sure.

mechatra
Jul 9, 2006, 07:13 AM
On 2006-07-08 22:32, Avion wrote:
Does anyone have information (or know where I can find info) on how the element stuff works for hunter(close-range) weapons?



I can tell you that so far, the only way Hunters can apply elements with blade weapons is with elemental weapons themselves.

Rather than attaching elemental PA's to the blade, the blade must be elemental from the start. For example,in synthesising you use a red photon instead of a normal green photon: and this creates a Red photon sword, which is fire elemental.

Of course it is not just fire. The way elements work on blades is that the better crafted and stronger photon is used, the higher elemental % the weapon will have, and this elemental % will effect the damage output against monsters weak or strong to that element.

For example: I have a Red photon sword - it is 25% fire elemental. Against an enemy weak to fire, when I strike him my attacks will do 25% more damage due to the extra fire element.

However elements also work in reverse,so an enemy strong against fire would take 25% LESS damage from the same sword.

As a final point I believe that there is no way for hunters (Or any other class for that matter) to inflict elemental status effects with blade weapons.

That's the job of Rangers and to a lesser extent Forces.

*EDIT* but of course now all races can use traps aswell so that does add the ability to hunters to cause status along with handgun B.arts.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: mechatra on 2006-07-09 05:14 ]</font>

Carlo210
Jul 13, 2006, 06:21 PM
Guns better have more PP as you go down the road. PP ran out pretty quickly with guns in the beta and, when using bullets that cost up to even 20 pp per bullet, your ammo will diminish like there's no tomorrow. It's funny how forces can cast ranged radius spells of higher damage for around the same cost of PP. Hope the end game looks a little brighter for rangers.

Carlo210
Jul 13, 2006, 09:37 PM
On 2006-07-08 12:43, Kupi wrote:


On 2006-07-08 09:28, NuclearRanger wrote:
Is there a limit of bullets you can use on one equip? As in you buy a thunder or somthing is it good for only 2500 shots? If it isnt then couldnt you just buy them all and be done with that store?



Don't think of a "Bullet" as a traditional round of ammunition. It's an equippable effect on every single shot you fire that never exhausts. It's like the way that Forces may run out of PP, but they'll never run out of Foie. Once you've learned it, you've learned it. End of story.


Yeah, so I'm assuming you buy these effects or buy guns with these effects on them, right?

Anyways, does anyone else think it's strange how rangers are going to be spending many pps per shot to attack one enemy while forces will be unloading stronger attacks against groups of enemies for comparable pp?

EnixBelmont
Jul 13, 2006, 09:41 PM
Not really. Guns won't cost that much without special bullets. Probably only 1-2 per shot, from what I have seen.

Carlo210
Jul 13, 2006, 09:43 PM
Aren't you going to do pretty miniscule damage if you use generic shots? The only way I've seen rangers do more than 100 damage per bullet is if they used a gun with the element that the enemy is weak against.

*eidt* Thanks, enix. You seem to be the only one posting with me in the same threads tonight. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2006-07-13 19:44 ]</font>

EnixBelmont
Jul 13, 2006, 09:47 PM
LOL, NP.

Rangers will do fine damage. Not as much as hunters, but they wont get hit as much since they are long range. Hitting weak points in first person will do much more as well, like the fire-spitting boss's wings. That made the rangers damage go up by about 50% in the video I say. And just getting better guins and leveling up will make you do much better damage as well.

Carlo210
Jul 13, 2006, 09:50 PM
True True. Something else I had on my mind (while someone is actually POSTING) is the massive damage I've seen forces dish out with each hit. Even though they attack slower, the damage outputted greatly overcomes those of a ranger. I mean, they are dishing out 300-400 damage 10' wide range attacks that cost as much as a rangers element bullet (that hits only one enemy at a time). I think this is mainly what I find discouraging about the ranger class.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2006-07-13 19:51 ]</font>

EnixBelmont
Jul 13, 2006, 10:00 PM
Rangers will still be good. They can easily switch to a melee weapon if they want to(spears, daggers, and sabers IIRC. Spears kick ass, BTW XD.) Forces cant do that quite as well. They are entirely reliant on PP. Also, rangers may have kickass weapons that we haven't seen in action yet, such as the launcher or laser cannon. I have personally only seen the rifle and handgun.

Also, shotguns. Remember how insane they were for taking out large numbers of enemies at once in PSO? 5 homing bullets? Sounds good to me. Combine that with elemental bullets, and you have a sweet weapon.

Carlo210
Jul 13, 2006, 10:02 PM
I'm new to PS. Never played PSO. *runs away*

EnixBelmont
Jul 13, 2006, 10:05 PM
.....
..........
.............

>_> is your PC good enough to run a dreamcastish game?

Carlo210
Jul 13, 2006, 10:48 PM
My den pc can run morrowind alright with mid/low view distance (though I don't like the game much). We got the den pc around 6 months ago.

EnixBelmont
Jul 13, 2006, 10:49 PM
Thats more than enough. Check out blue burst's free trial period. It will help prepare you for PSU.

or *cough*checkyouremail*cough*

Carlo210
Jul 19, 2006, 03:10 PM
On 2006-07-13 20:00, EnixBelmont wrote:
Rangers will still be good. They can easily switch to a melee weapon if they want to(spears, daggers, and sabers IIRC. Spears kick ass, BTW XD.) Forces cant do that quite as well. They are entirely reliant on PP. Also, rangers may have kickass weapons that we haven't seen in action yet, such as the launcher or laser cannon. I have personally only seen the rifle and handgun.

Also, shotguns. Remember how insane they were for taking out large numbers of enemies at once in PSO? 5 homing bullets? Sounds good to me. Combine that with elemental bullets, and you have a sweet weapon.


Well, the machine guns are weak, along with the shotguns. There is a list of the weapons in the game that are known to date, and the shottys do much less damage than handguns (much less), along with the machineguns.

Kupi
Jul 19, 2006, 06:02 PM
On 2006-07-13 19:50, Carlo210 wrote:
True True. Something else I had on my mind (while someone is actually POSTING) is the massive damage I've seen forces dish out with each hit. Even though they attack slower, the damage outputted greatly overcomes those of a ranger. I mean, they are dishing out 300-400 damage 10' wide range attacks that cost as much as a rangers element bullet (that hits only one enemy at a time). I think this is mainly what I find discouraging about the ranger class.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2006-07-13 19:51 ]</font>


It should also be noted that Forces are faced with the paradigm choice that every dual-role caster in the history of RPGs has been forced to contend with: offensive casting vs. support casting. To date, I have never found an RPG where a caster who did both didn't ultimately wind up relegated to support casting when things got rough. Healing the guy who has infinite "ammunition" for his sword is far more efficient than blowing up a gang of lesser monsters, in terms of how far you can take a party with either strategy. So, I'd say that Forces need a very strong offensive option to balance that out. Healing is broken by its very nature, and something has to tempt Forces away from being healbots, especially now that they're the only people with Resta.

Carlo210
Jul 19, 2006, 11:27 PM
Ok, forces aren't the ultimate character. Forget I brought them up. Let's get back to the point - rangers.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2006-07-19 22:04 ]</font>

Sgt_Shligger
Jul 19, 2006, 11:57 PM
Well, I will personally melee to bother my team... the advantage of being a ranger will be I can fight at any range. Damage is something I can simply brush off. =D

Carlo210
Jul 20, 2006, 12:04 AM
I'm being a ranger anyways. I've come to notice that the only thing borthering me is the ery limited PP. I mean, in order to do decent damage, you gotta have an ince/fire/lightning etc shot equipped. This sucks up 10 pp each shot. You only have around 1000 pp on a good rifle, so to speak. That's only 100 shots per round with the one gun. 1000. 990. 980. 970. 960. 950. 940. 930. 920. 910. 900. 890. 880. (why did I do this?).

Kyuu
Jul 20, 2006, 03:39 AM
Do bullet arts actually increase the damage done by guns? And does it give them a damage bonus/reduction against monsters that are strong/weak to that element? I thought only melee weapons and their elements worked that way, and that the bullet arts simply gave a weapon a status effect of that element (burning for fire, freezing for ice, etc.) I could see them also increasing the damage of each bullet, but, beyond fire creatures obviously being resistant or immune to burning and that sort of thing, I didn't think that, for example, bullets from an ice bullet art would do more damage against ice weak mobs and less against ice strong mobs.

RFB
Jul 20, 2006, 07:29 AM
Yes, elemental bullets increase or decrease damage depending on the foes. I can tell the giant worms and the mizuraki preserve didnt like my freezing rifles http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

I believe melee weapons that happen to have an element also increase or decrease damage depending on the mob, but with no status effects, and you dont have a choice of changing it's element. Or at least, I didnt see such a choice. If you want an elemental weapon, either you buy it with that element already at a shop (If the shop has any elemental weapon) or you craft it.

Lyrise
Jul 20, 2006, 12:07 PM
On 2006-07-20 05:29, RFB wrote:
Yes, elemental bullets increase or decrease damage depending on the foes. I can tell the giant worms and the mizuraki preserve didnt like my freezing rifles http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif


Elemental BAs also increase damage by the inherent damage modifier. For example, burning shot at lv20 does 160% or your normal damage. This then goes up or down or stays the same depending on the monster.

What we don't know, when using the element shot arts, is what is the proficiency of the element used. If it's at a full 30%, rangers could seriously be major contenders in terms of outputting consistant damage.

People may gripe about how Hunters seem to do more with SAs, but you can't tell me 160% + an additional 30% damage is weak. Even if it's not 30%, it's still more damage you can count on consistantly doing. For even more damage, try it in snipe mode, that'll add 25-75% (best estimate, don't know exact range) damage right there too, maybe even more if you know where to shoot.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Lyrise on 2006-07-20 10:11 ]</font>

Carlo210
Jul 20, 2006, 02:03 PM
It's scary thinking about how much PP a level 20 burning shot would cost. I mean, I thought 10pp per shot was a lot. Geeze. Hopefully ST increases the amount of pp on guns because this is just ridiculous. Maybe I'm missing something?

Lyrise
Jul 20, 2006, 02:26 PM
Or you know, you could pack 6 guns, grind them all. Abuse the status infliction abilities of your shot. Buy Photon Chargers. Lots of ways to get around the PP situation.

Carlo210
Jul 20, 2006, 02:29 PM
So it's excessively expensive.

Jife_Jifremok
Jul 20, 2006, 04:24 PM
Doesn't sound THAT expensive. Just keep the guns you already have when you buy new ones. Oh, and don't forget to use melee weapons if you're ever low on or out of PP. Speaking of which, can the PP of a gun recharge even if it isn't equipped?
EDIT: Nevermind that last question, I found the answer in another post. Unequipped guns don't recharge.



On 2006-07-20 10:07, Lyrise wrote:
For even more damage, try it in snipe mode, that'll add 25-75% (best estimate, don't know exact range) damage right there too, maybe even more if you know where to shoot.


Wait. You mean that you can do more damage JUST BECAUSE you're shooting in first person, even if you're shooting the exact same spot you'd have been shooting in third person instead of whatever weak spots you should be shooting at?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jife_Jifremok on 2006-07-20 14:35 ]</font>

Lyrise
Jul 20, 2006, 05:19 PM
That really depends. Remember there's no lockon, the moment you go into snipe, you have to start aiming for it. You will do slightly more damage than if you weren't in snipe mode and as you've mentioned, even more if you do know where to shoot; but do remember that when you're in snipemode, you give up all movement priveleges; you're a sitting duck for any incoming shots, mobs, and spells. You're giving up your own safety and ability to manually evade damage for doing more damage and better accuracy.

The funny thing is with bosses during beta (and this is primarily directed at the fact that it's beta) is that some points do hurt more than others, and do change as well. Onma Gogg is one of the bigger perpetrators to the rule. If it's on the ground, aim for the head, you'll get more damage out of it, with shots to the legs doing slightly more damage than normal (still less than head shots) and everywhere else having miniscule damage gains. But when it takes flight, the spots change, and shots to the wings start doing more damage than shots to the legs. I do not know if this was a bug, this is my personal experience, and I wouldn't be surprised if its NOT a bug, since it makes complete sense to me why this is happening.

Carlo210
Jul 20, 2006, 07:18 PM
On 2006-07-20 14:24, Jife_Jifremok wrote:
Doesn't sound THAT expensive. Just keep the guns you already have when you buy new ones. Oh, and don't forget to use melee weapons if you're ever low on or out of PP. Speaking of which, can the PP of a gun recharge even if it isn't equipped?
EDIT: Nevermind that last question, I found the answer in another post. Unequipped guns don't recharge.



On 2006-07-20 10:07, Lyrise wrote:
For even more damage, try it in snipe mode, that'll add 25-75% (best estimate, don't know exact range) damage right there too, maybe even more if you know where to shoot.


Wait. You mean that you can do more damage JUST BECAUSE you're shooting in first person, even if you're shooting the exact same spot you'd have been shooting in third person instead of whatever weak spots you should be shooting at?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jife_Jifremok on 2006-07-20 14:35 ]</font>

No, you don't do more damage on normal enemies in fp mode, only bosses if you aim at certain 'points' (target areas on the bosses, places where res circles appear for aiming etc). You only do mroe damage if you zoom inj on a bosses 'wings' or 'head', for example. This isn't Fallout.


Anywho, are you telling me that, when you get a nice rare rifle, you will only be able to use it for around 20% of each round? I mean, you'd have to have a couple of standard-ish rifles that do less damage, as expected. When hunters get a nice strong rare weapon, it's theirs to use for a good chunk of a round.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2006-07-20 17:21 ]</font>

DoctorShasta
Jul 20, 2006, 10:29 PM
Yes the whole ranger thing seems unfair. All these suggestions your throwing at us would work however they are expensive and an inconvience and even though they do work it still doesn't change the fact that hunters and forces don't have to do all that but we do.

But we have range right? Well range is only so much of an advantage. If they make the ranger classes like they did in PSO then we do less damage but we have range, but now we have to worry about PP too? So they better beef up the ranger class or try and tweak the PP a little.

Of course if they don't do that I'll still play the game I'm sure it will be great I would just like it if they did that.

Kyuu
Jul 20, 2006, 10:35 PM
Frankly, it's rather rediculous to be whining about rangers having a PP problem (yes, that wording was deliberate ^_^).
I'm pretty positive forces are going to be hurting for PP way more than rangers. I dunno what everyone is getting all upset over, rangers in PSU are way more appealing than they ever were in PSO, except for the fact that shots aren't absurdly overpowered anymore.

Carlo210
Jul 20, 2006, 10:42 PM
Uh... forces hit multiple enemies for much more damage than rangers. Moire bang for your pp.

Kupi
Jul 20, 2006, 10:50 PM
And Rangers can attack far outside of the range at which enemies normally begin attacking. And Rangers get a much higher chance of causing status ailments with their attacks. And Forces have to split their PP resources between attack Techs and support (which WILL be expected of them, I guarantee it).

Jife_Jifremok
Jul 20, 2006, 10:59 PM
Can Forces manually aim their spells in a way that they can easily pick and choose their target like a ranger in first-person mode? Can Forces attack specific areas of the enemy's body? If a Force uses an Area of Effect spell on a large monster with multiple parts, does said AoE spell affect all the parts in its radius?

If the answer to all of these questions is no, then I'd say the Ranger balances out well enough against the Force.

Lyrise
Jul 20, 2006, 10:59 PM
Additionally, with the advent of even higher difficulties, Rangers are in the sweetspot. Mobs become more prevalent and more dangerous when you up the difficulty. Last time I checked, Force technique range isn't as good as a ranger's. Mix with spell delay and inherent low defense, and suddenly, that force is doing less damage due to excessive support spell casting, if not dead. I'm not bagging on Forces in general, but if all people can see is that Forces do more damage than Rangers for free, then it's time to rethink what class you really want to play as.

Kyuu
Jul 20, 2006, 10:59 PM
Only advanced technics hit multiple opponents. Most simple technics are probably only single-hit (much like simple techniques in PSO), and I guarantee that the more advanced technics will be way, way more expensive PP-wise than any ranger bullet art.

DoctorShasta
Jul 20, 2006, 11:01 PM
How are ranger's more appealing? can someone give me a link as to how ranger's will be different in PSU because they don't sound more appealing.

Kyuu
Jul 20, 2006, 11:09 PM
How rangers are different:

- First-person viewpoint, where you can shoot for weakpoints and do more damage, especially useful for flying enemies and bosses.

- Bullet arts, which allow you to do more damage and inflict status effects like freeze, burning, paralysis (there may be more like poison and such, though I'm not sure). Of course, this comes at the cost of a decently heavy use of PP, but that just means you'll have to stop shooting willy-nilly and aim so your shots count.

- Ranged weapons aren't combo based, so you can shoot as much as you want with no pauses for posing (limited by the rate of fire for the weapon, of course).

- You can circle-strafe with handguns and mechguns, and sideways-strafe with all other guns (at least, that's my current understand of how it works). Not to mention you can dual-wield one-handed guns with a dagger, saber, or other one-handed melee weapon so you can melee in a pinch. Rangers can learn photon arts up to level 10, I believe, so you're hardly incapable at fending off mobs in a melee.

I miss anything? (Not asking any of you nay-sayers.)

Lyrise
Jul 20, 2006, 11:20 PM
On 2006-07-20 20:59, Kyuu wrote:
Only advanced technics hit multiple opponents. Most simple technics are probably only single-hit (much like simple techniques in PSO), and I guarantee that the more advanced technics will be way, way more expensive PP-wise than any ranger bullet art.



Actually, simple techs can hit multiple targets as well, but not at the range that a midlevel or a high level technique can. Foie, when cast, hits everything around the impacted target (like no more than an inch apart I'd guess) as well as burning anything right next to you when you cast. Barta is a giveaway, it's exactly like PSO. Zonde, can hit multiple targets, but its a lot like Foie, just that Zonde is instantaneous, and foie has that travel time.

With the exception of Zonde, simple techs have the flaw of travelling time, although if you are creative, you can probably use that to your advantage. All midlevel and (presumably)high level techs are instant, and have better range, but do consume like 4-5x more PP easily.

Kyuu
Jul 20, 2006, 11:52 PM
Ah, my mistake. I was relying on assumptions that were obviously incorrect. However, they're still obviously much more limited as far as area-of-effect goes than their more advanced counterparts, so the point stands. =P

Carlo210
Jul 21, 2006, 12:13 AM
On 2006-07-20 20:59, Jife_Jifremok wrote:
Can Forces manually aim their spells in a way that they can easily pick and choose their target like a ranger in first-person mode? Can Forces attack specific areas of the enemy's body? If a Force uses an Area of Effect spell on a large monster with multiple parts, does said AoE spell affect all the parts in its radius?

If the answer to all of these questions is no, then I'd say the Ranger balances out well enough against the Force.


Uh... unless the enemy has multipletarget points (aka only bosses or minibosses), it doesn't matter where you shoot them. Think of it like Oblivion.

Anywho, rangers can strafe with any gun. Some guns don't make you stop to shoot, such as handguns and machineguns. With these small guns, you can strafe and shoot at the same time. With other guns, you can straf just like with small guns, but you have to stop to shoot (if you are strafing, you'll stop moving for the second that you shoot).

Lyrise
Jul 21, 2006, 12:28 AM
Uh... unless the enemy has multipletarget points (aka only bosses or minibosses), it doesn't matter where you shoot them.

But they do have multiple target points (monsters and bosses alike). However, in snipe mode, you won't be able to see the target points, you have to find them on your own.



Can Forces manually aim their spells in a way that they can easily pick and choose their target like a ranger in first-person mode? Can Forces attack specific areas of the enemy's body? If a Force uses an Area of Effect spell on a large monster with multiple parts, does said AoE spell affect all the parts in its radius?

If the answer to all of these questions is no, then I'd say the Ranger balances out well enough against the Force.

You're right, the answer to all of them is no. In fact, you can't even enter snipemode without a shot weapon equipped.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Lyrise on 2006-07-20 22:30 ]</font>

Carlo210
Jul 21, 2006, 12:34 AM
Buddy, monsters have one target point - them. Some big tank monsters may have two just because they are big.
If you shoot a worm's head, it won't do extra damage than if you shoot his body. He has one target point - him.

Ether
Jul 21, 2006, 01:33 AM
On 2006-07-20 22:34, Carlo210 wrote:
Buddy, monsters have one target point - them. Some big tank monsters may have two just because they are big.
If you shoot a worm's head, it won't do extra damage than if you shoot his body. He has one target point - him.


Buddy, have you actually played PSU? No? Ok then. All you seem to do is whine about how much rangers are going to suck, be weak, limited by ammo, be expensive, whatever. If you're that annoyed by them, play a hunter

Jife_Jifremok
Jul 21, 2006, 01:57 AM
I just thought of something. I'll bet the answer is no, but is it possible make a flying enemy fall down, with the THUD causing a little bit of extra damage?


Well here's what I've thus far gathered from these readings and my own speculation. I could be wrong since I never played the game...
Perhaps the Ranger is simply the safest class to play, since the shooting can be at long range (offensive and defensive advantages here) and the higher DEF and EVP (if I'm not mistaken, anyway) could make meleeing safer when out of or conserving PP.

The Ranger also seems a bit versatile in that he is quite able to melee like a Hunter, and with the Bullet Arts can inflict status ailments like a Force. Versatility seems pretty safe if you ask me.

Plus, since he can manually aim at stuff, he won't be impeded by some damn targeting system like a Force may be. Very useful if, say, there's a Chaos Sorceror or something behind a group of melee monsters but far enough away that an AoE on the group wouldn't help. While the Force is trying to move closer to the Sorceror or struggling with the targeting (or just settling for the melee monsters closing in), the Ranger can simply shoot the damn Sorceror. This means the Sorceror dies faster, making it safer for the Ranger.

And think of it htis way: If Rangers actually are weak, then a good Ranger can simply be seen as a strong player. Especially if they're weak because of some ammo limitations or something. It could take good ammo conservation skills and good melee skills. Be glad you're in a game where melee weapons won't break or need to be repaired with HP.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jife_Jifremok on 2006-07-21 00:03 ]</font>

Sev
Jul 21, 2006, 02:04 AM
It's the same in every game.

Someone who likes a certain class, will look at another class and think it's unbalanced. We won't know til we see how it plays out in the game though. It may look unbalanced now, but we don't really know how things pan out later. Rangers do get it easy though, while my Hunter is getting his face bashed in you can unload on the mob.

How that's not a good deal is beyond me. I just like abuse, hence I play a Hunter and read and respond to PSO-World threads. I'm sick aren't I?

DoctorShasta
Jul 21, 2006, 02:14 AM
Yes quite sick, Thankfully I'm a doctor http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Anyway your right everyone thinks there class is being ripped off I guess let's all just get along and to tell you the truth despite all this bickering I bet you it's gonna end up being balanced, I trust sonic team http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Sinue_v2
Jul 21, 2006, 02:37 AM
despite all this bickering I bet you it's gonna end up being balanced, I trust sonic team

Hmm... never played PSO v.1 did you?

I hope they can balance it out nicely - but I won't expect it to be optimally balanced until the second or third release at the very least.

Sgt_Shligger
Jul 21, 2006, 02:37 AM
when you lock-on, does it just target the nearest enemy? HOw do you change targets in lockon?

Phaze37
Jul 21, 2006, 03:05 AM
Do hunters get first person aiming with the guns that they can equip, or is it a ranger-only ability? Rangers have always been my main class, and I'm really looking forward to trying out the first person aiming. That will really set rangers apart from the other two classes. I like the idea of being able to rely on my own gunslinging skill instead of relying on some targetting system that may not always work in my favour. I just hope it allows for quick aiming, or better yet just let us set the sensitivity ourselves.

mechatra
Jul 21, 2006, 05:27 AM
All classes can use subjective view aiming with the guns they can use... so handguns really.

Secondly Guns don't lock on fully anymore so it's already up to you to aim your shots up with the enemy you wanna hit.

Oh and Kyuu, handguns and mechguns do not allow circle strafing. ALL guns make you strafe gun style, it's clearly shown in brighstars Mizuraki video, for both dual handguns and mechgun.

Only melee weapons allow you to circle strafe.