The 360 MUST be linked to PS2 and PC (voice chat issue)

[parabolee]

Ok folks please hear me out on this. I'm sure most of you agree on this or the sake of the community, but I have a new argument that I think should be posed to SEGA.

Voice Chat. OK? I know there are a lot of people on the fence and a lot who have strong opinions on the topic of voice chat. Some feel it makes the game easier to play while others feel that it diminishes part of the charm of communicating in game. Regardless of your opinion on the topic I am sure most of you would agree that having a choice over which you would like to use would be the best option.

So here is what I propose -

First of all the 360, PC and PS2 versions of the game should share the same server. FFXI does this so why shouldn't PSU? If the only arguement is voice chat then I have the solution.

A voice chat only ship (server/section/whatever it would be in PSU)! A seperate ship that is the only place where voice chat can be used. This would include support for the PS2/PC users that have a headset and would like to use it in the game. That way 360 users that want to use voice chat can play with PC/PS2 users without the community downfall of having people that use both playing together (this has been done on a few PS2 games and it sucked!).

All the other ships would not allow voice chat at all, it would be keyboard only. So those without voice chat do not have to play with those that want to use it on any system. And everyone else has a choice.

You could still use the keyboard in the voice chat only ship/server/section but it would be the only place that voice chat worked.

I feel this would create a stronger community and would please PSU gamers regardless of their feelings on voice chat.

Would do you all think?


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: parabolee on 2006-07-13 07:43 ]</font>

[Sinue_v2]

I don't think you need to segregate users depending on the mode of communication they use. They are both mutually interchangable. For example, PSO for the Xbox employed keyboard chat via a USB adaptor. You could simply listen to what another user had to say - then respond by typed response. Or vice versa. It was slightly disconcerting - but you can easily adapt.

Options to mute voices should be available if you simply don't want to communicate with people using voice chat. Voice chaters, on the other hand - will have no problems keeping up with text conversations since it's much faster to talk than to type generally.

[parabolee]

I strongly disagree, lumping voice chatters with those that do not wish to comminicate like that is a divisive game mechanic, like you say some people may use a option to mute voice chatters which is essentially ignoring them, not good for the comminity at all!

Plus being able to use the keyboard with voice chat is great but forcing those that do not wish to commuicate with voice to listen to people have casual conversations about last nights lost episode etc while playing is divisive.

I personally enjoyed both voice and keyboard but would not want them mixed. Champions of Norrath did that on PS2 and despite being a poor game anyway it made the whole experience of communicating painfull (never mind disconcerting).

The best option would be to allow the choiced but don't force the mix. Of course those without voice chat could go into the voice chat area without it if they wish but I think that they will prefer playing with non voice players.

I know my biggest turn off with the voice chat on the Xbox was the combination of people having casual non PSO conversations ALL THE TIME while playing and kids (or immature people) talking crap all the time. Now I'm not the kind of jerk to tell people to stop having a conversation about Madden of Friends or whatever because I just want to be concentrating on the game, but it did spoil the experience to degree (albiet a small one) compared to the feel of playing with keyboard which cuts out most non-gameplay chat and keeps you in the game.

So I would like the choice to have both, I would play in voice chat games about 50% of the time, or maybe less. But being able to choose AND use the same Character/System would be awesome (I had both Gamecube and Xbox versions for the choice before).




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: parabolee on 2006-07-13 07:19 ]</font>

[Kano-Okami]

But your assuming voices will be a part of the in-game audio.
The voices are from xbox-Live, completely seperate from the game's audio track,
thus for making 'listening and responding with type' impossible for those who aren't playing on the 360 w/ headphones. PC & PS2 players would have no clue what they're talking about.

[parabolee]

Well to be fair to him, they could make the voice chat heard over the speakers without the need of headphones for the non voice chat players. But in my experience that sounds horrible.

[Kano-Okami]

I bet it does, and consider the strain it'd put on the server?
I'm still torn between the potential of this.
and I'm considering getting a 360, just to play with my older friends from PSO GC who moved on to the xbox 360.
Decisions...
*sigh*

[parabolee]

Well the 360 handles voice chat on every game and manages just fine. Even games like PDZ with 36 players. Voice chat would be unavailable or proximity based (more likely) in lobbies (cities in pSu I believe).

I prfer keyboard to voice myself, but the graphical difference between PS2 and 360 is a bigger factor in deciding which version to play. But being able to choose would be the best option for all I feel.

[Garroway]

The problem with your concern is even in text only communication I have to see the idiots jabbering on about all kinds of personnal crap that I don't care about. You're 100% right about not anting to listen to those conversations but I don't want to read them either. I've been in many groups in FFXI where kids were treating the party chat like it was AIM. I find it kind of offensive that, as a voice chat user, you have lumped me into the same category as the nimrods that want to talk about nothing just to hear the sound of their own voices. I take my personnal conversations to private chat and I expect the same courtesy out of everyone else.

This is really why I like to find Roleplaying groups to play with. You generaly don't have to worry about chatter that isn't game related and I tend to find people playing that want to get into their characters as much as me. I know many games have implemented Roleplaying servers with varying degrees of success (failure?) and I think if we're going to seperate people that might be a better way to do it.

I like voice chat but if that is what is keeping the 360 off the other servers then I would rather not have voice chat and get to play with everyone else.

[parabolee]

Well what you say about peoplem using text chat for mindless chatter is of course true, BUT during normal gameplay, as in running around fighting/killing boss battles etc. People do not spend their time chatting about non game subjects simple because they are too busy. no ne runs to the corner of the room ro type "So how about that PS3?". No they type "heal me pls".

I think keyboard chat is more endearing than voice chat in game but I have very much enjoyed voice chat aswell.

I do not understand why you voted that it would not work simply because you think my point on mindless chatter applies to keyboard chat aswell. this is not a voice vs keyboard debate. This is a discussion on how to please everyone. Would you not prefer being on the same server as the PS2 and PC AND having the choice of voice chat or not? Since that would solve the problem of keeping 360 off the same sever just because of voice chat (which is dumb as PC and PS2 have the ability to support and some of those users want it too.).

[Garroway]

You misunderstand completely.

I am under the impression that PS2/PC will not support voice chat. PC users are going to use other VOIP services to communicate. Xbox 360 will be using voice chat through xbox live, having never played the game I have no idea how integral to the 360 version of the game that will be. I plan on playing the 360 version and I have a couple friends that will also so I plan on using private chat over xbox live to communicate with them reguardless of what is integral to the game. Thus, for me, an intengral PSU chat option is not as important to me as being able to play with a larger community.

By seperating people by want to use voice chat/do not want to use voice chat, you would be creating an unwanted division of player base for me. I want to play with people who want to get into the game reguardless of communication medium. By splitting voice users and text users you would be forcing me to exclude a group of people I would enjoy playing with based on what to me is irrelavant criteria.

So dont tell me how to vote. You sound like my wife, geez...

[Nuclearranger]

Votes Yes- Although this would require sega to Build in Voice chat which i do not beleve they will do. But dont talk to us you dont need our aproveal to send this to sega. XD

[parabolee]

Mr Garroway I was not telling you how to vote but stating my confusion in your vote.

I think you missunderstand part of my argument. I stated that those that wish to play with voice chat but do not have it would of course be able to enter the voice chat ship/server. Seperating 360 players wouldm force you to exclude far more people.

Under my plan you would not be forced to excluded anyone, play in any ship you want anytime you want, believe me you will not have an issue finding people who want to get into the game regardless of communication type, but for those that wish to have a choice AND not be forced to exclude a large portion of people you would have that choice.

And to Mr. NuclearRanger: I am hoping to get a strong positive responce to my proposal on this board, at which point I will craft a letter to Sonic Team proposing my idea. Although I think they may have already considered this. I was very pleased to hear Takao Miyoshi (PSU Producer) say that the seperate servers had not been decided on yet in the PSO WOrld interview -

PSOW: Let's talk about the different platforms that PSU will be available on. It was recently announced that PSU would be released for the Xbox 360. We found out shortly afterwards that the plan was to have the Xbox 360 servers separated from the PC and PS2 servers, which have already been confirmed to be linked. Has this decision been finalized?

Takao Miyoshi: It is actually something that is not finalized.

(At this point, we expressed our concern over having the community split up between platforms. Miyoshi-san seemed to understand the concern. We felt that it was good news that this decision has not been finalized yet, as it indicates that they may be reconsidering their previously revealed stance on the Xbox 360 servers. However, we didn't receive any further information on this particular topic.)

Taken from - http://pso-world.com/phantasy-star-universe-e3-2006-takao-miyoshi.php



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: parabolee on 2006-07-13 10:15 ]</font>

[Carlo210]

Would be a great idea, but ST would have to implement their own voice chat feature. At that point, they may as well make voice chat available on every ship because PS2 users and PC users may join on the fun too.
Also, I'm startled at some of the negative experiences you people have had with voice chat. Who do you play with? There are annoying people every now and then, as with text messaging, but, in PSU, that should only be apparent somewhat in the cities. During gametime 80% of the 'annoying ones' will have their mouths shut and the other 30% could use a quick mute or a 'shut up' message.

[parabolee]

Well the voice chat ship would be used for PC and PS2 users with voice chat too. As I said mixing voice chat with keyboard chat is a painfull experience IMO. I would rather stick to one or the other, but would like the choice.

Plus SEGA will have to write some code for the voice chat as it will not be able to support chat for everyone in the city, it will need to limit to distance or something. Every game on the 360 has to have voice chat code to suit the game. IE PDZ has team chat but you can't talk to living team mates when you are dead, but you can talk to fellow dead team mates.

I find that a lot of players on 360 are immature or kids and they talk a lot of crap. It wasn't as bad on PSO on Xbox because of the co-op nature of the game, but in a vs game it's painfull how lame they are. Calling everyone gay and retarded all the time, it get's really annoying. But I don't want this to be a keyboard vs voice discussion. I like both equally, they have almost 50/50 advantages/flaws.

[tank1]

I think its a great idea parabolee im all for it though its most likely never going to happen.

[-memoru-]

I think it would be a great idea to separate voice and text ships. If there are people who have friends who chat, they go to the voice ship, and for those who want to text go to another ship. if you have both, then go to both. geez, i don't see whats the big deal.

I personally don't want voice and text joined, b/c as parabolee has brought out, i don't want to hear a garble of, "omg! you sux!", "why is you ignoring me!? i kills you now" and all of that jazz. I know there;s the same thing with the keyboard, but at least i don't have to hear it.

[Earthsunderer]

You do realize that this game's coming out in Japan at the end of august, which is next month? You'd better write this letter now, hope that it even is going to be read by the people responsible for coding this game, hope more that they applaud your idea, and then hope that they are going to start coding everything you said needs to be included.

You can hope very much, but... Oh well, time's not in your favor...

[Carlo210]

I'm in for the voice chat ship.

[parabolee]

Earthsunderer, you are right, it's a long shot. But there is a chance that they are on the fence about this and have already done some work towards it. Takao Miyoshi did say that they had not yet decided for sure that the 360 would be seperate.

I mean there is a better chance that the 360 version would work this way but it be too late to include voice chat into the PS2 version. But a simple patch could add it for the PC.

The 360 version will be completed after the PS2 version (hopefully in time for a relaease at the same time a the US version of PSU), so only at that point will they choose wether or not to link the servers and since most of the voice chat ship coding would be at the sever end it could easily be added later.

[Kers]

Security reasons could also be another reason why all the servers aren't connected. The Xbox Live Gold and Silver can ban cheater's console's, while the PC and PS2 can only have their accounts closed. Merging the servers would make this security hardly meaningful because not all the platforms are bannable.

[parabolee]

Well if that was the concern then then should link 360 and PS2 and keep the PC seperate, as the PC will be the easiest version to hack.

(and not to be anal but Xbox Live can only ban Xbox Live accounts, not consoles. Which would essentially be the same as SEGA banning your Hunters License on PSU)

[Vetto]

-.-; This is lookin Grim for me.

[Kers]

When you register a 360 account for live, you also register the console's serial number.

[parabolee]

I never registered my serial number Xbox live! plus you can use any Xbox Live account on any Xbox 360 so they can't ban the console itself.

[Carlo210]

Kers, Microsoft can't stop you from using your 360 console. They ban your account so you cant connect to live.

Also, Vetto, why is it looking grim? Because people want the xbox 360 to be solitary and as skimped as PSO Xbox was? Well, if things for PSU end up as they did with PSO, I won't be happy at all. In fact, I'd be angry.

[Sev]

No one really wants it to be solitary though. Most people are on the fence. For some it's the simple fact that everything else has voicechat (barring FFXI) so why not have it on this game? Then it comes down to the reason, you can't be connected and have it readily available, only your private chat would work. Some people don't like that idea, and so they won't want the game. Just as people don't like to hear others talk, some people don't wanna type while playing this game.

It'd be nice if they were connected. If not, then well... Maybe next time.

[Carlo210]

If they seperate us, then they'd better not skimp on us like last time. I will be angry.

[Kers]

Hmm, I can't find where I found my information, but I was going off by some thing I found about their being a limited number of accoutns you can create on the 360. I can't find my source, but it's what made me look for it is all the cheating on Halo2. Banning doesn't help because the cheaters just make new accounts with free month cards, so I looked for any precautions the Live team took for 360.

Anyways, now that I've thought about it more, people would have to create new Sega accounts aswell. So, if new accounts don't have a free month of play, people would have to spend more money than it's worth.

Oh well lol. I truely thought there was a way to remove 360 consoles from Xbox Live.

[Carlo210]

They can and DO ban IP adresses.

[parabolee]

Yes that's true, they do ban IP's. I think that the 360 version may have the best hack protection due to both Sega and Microsoft handing out bans. But I'd rather be connected to PC and PS2 servers than be a little more protected.

[ShinMaruku]

While it's a charitable gestrure, it ain't rollin' ST's lazyness is legendary.

[parabolee]

Just to update you all. I have written a letter concerning the server linkage to SEGA USA and SEGA EUROPE. I would write to SEGA JAPAN but I don't think they would read a letter in English.

[Earthsunderer]

Hmm, okay, your letter won't affect the game at all. There is not even a fracture of one percent of a chance that by writing at the people from SEGA USA and SEGA EUROPE that something's gonna change.
Not even for the localised version. There won't be extra features that will differenciate it from the original japanese game.

I mean, really, it's either taking a long shot at the people who really are in charge, or it's simply a waste of time.

[parabolee]

I know. You are 100% correct. BUT at least I tried!

Plus if 1,000's wrote then it probably WOULD make a difference. So if less people thought like you and actually voiced their concerns they would listen more. One thing they want to do is please the customers, we just need to be more vocal about what we want from them.

So it will probably not make any difference but you should write them aswell. At least that way if they never do it they can't say we never told them.

[Sev]

Parabolee's right. You gotta start somewhere. At least he can say he got his opinion out there, unlike most people who just sit around and bitch without ever doing anything. Please don't know what he's doing, because it's much better then doing nothing. No one else should determine what somone elses waste of time is, because if they got something out of it then it's not a waste.

[Earthsunderer]

I don't bitch, because I don't really care for the linkage between the X-Box 360 and the two other systems. That's why I don't write or do anything. I don't even believe for one second in internet petition and similar stuff to work.

I do also have concerns, because the internet just isn't represantative for everybody.

Actually, it's just that the letter was sent to SEGA AMERICA and SEGA EUROPE which made me write the above-negative posting. I mean, they're really not worth addressing anything. I really believe that it should have been written to SEGA JAPAN to begin at all. Not the two other unimportant branches.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Earthsunderer on 2006-07-14 12:14 ]</font>

[Saner]

headsets give me a headache. I'm dumping them when this game comes out.

[Sev]

You gotta work with what you got. It's not like online petitions have always failed, of course, it takes a good bit of signatures and it has to be something that they can do. I myself don't think that ST would add in anything at this stage either, but if you feel like you gotta get it off your chest then do it. It's better then doing nothing. Just how I feel about it. I want PSU to be linked, the more people I can play with the better.

[parabolee]

Try turning the volume down or setting it to come from the Tv speakers.

I personally prefer the charm of keyboard chat but there is a place in my heart for the convenience of the headset (ie not running into the corner of a room to say something).

But this isn't a voice vs keyboard discussion, this is a server linkage issue. I just want us all to be able to play together.

[VAL-0251]

On 2006-07-13 06:11, parabolee wrote:
First of all the 360, PC and PS2 versions of the game should share the same server. FFXI does this so why shouldn't PSU?
1) Huge servers require obscene amounts of overhead. The biggest and baddest hardware to run a server like this would require is easily the cost of two more reasonable servers, and then some. For an illustration on this, go to http://www.pricewatch.com and take a look at some of the costs of parts; you'll see wonderful processors and RAM that are fairly reasonable, and the 'state-of-the-art' stuff is sometimes three times as expensive.

2) Huge servers are extremely difficult to administrate. It becomes much more difficult to catch cheaters and exploiters, control griefers, and respond to other gamer complaints.

3) Huge servers make very little business sense. It's not a good idea to 'have all your eggs in one basket', so to speak.

4) The multiplatform nature of this makes everything a lot more tricky. The PC, the PS2, and the XBox 360 all communicate differently. It's a gigantic headache, in particular the XBox 360, since XBox Live is jealously proprietary, thanks to Microsoft. All this equals more overhead for the server, which is more cost for Sega, lower server populations, greater server instability, so on, and so forth, there's a dozen ramifications of being wanton on server load.

Voice chat is only one part of the equation.

The bottom line is that just because FFXI has 'worked' (the profit margin on FFXI is mediocre when compared to its competitors, but it IS profitable) doesn't mean it should be repeated. A lot of the problems with FFXI's archetecture was overcome by the decade-old rabid fanbase the Final Fantasy name has.

Phantasy Star has never even come close to the popularity level of Final Fantasy, so duplicating their mistakes could very well mean the failure of the game.

[Kasuke]

Yea, but PS2 and PC users are on the same server. I just assume seperate the servers by system, and not country. I've heard the JP servers will be seperate. EU and U.S. are still undecided. But I say make all PS2 users one one server, PC on another, and then the 360 on one more, giving the player the option to switch between U.S., EU, and JP.

[VAL-0251]

On 2006-07-17 16:04, Kasuke wrote:
Yea, but PS2 and PC users are on the same server.
Right, I'm aware of that, but from what I understand, the PS2's nowhere near as difficult to accomidate as the XBox 360. XBox Live likes to do things in strange ways for the added security of doing things in strange ways.


But I say make all PS2 users one one server, PC on another, and then the 360 on one more, giving the player the option to switch between U.S., EU, and JP.

As I mentioned in another thread (http://www.pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=115366&forum=20&14), there are a number of techniques you can use to connect to these other servers even if it's not in the client, which it still possibly could be.

[EtherForce]

What about having voice chat channels, which you can invite people to and people can accept or reject the invitation however they choose?

[parabolee]

Yes another solution would be to disable voice chast as a standard in the game, the new 360 dashboard update will supposedly support 6 to 8 people in a chat room. 360 players wanting to use voice chat could chat that way, the same as they do on FFXI.

[Garroway]

On 2006-07-18 14:38, parabolee wrote:
Yes another solution would be to disable voice chast as a standard in the game, the new 360 dashboard update will supposedly support 6 to 8 people in a chat room. 360 players wanting to use voice chat could chat that way, the same as they do on FFXI.




This is a much better solution than having a seperate server.

[Kasuke]

I don't think it really has anything to do with voice chat. Their probably seperating them becvause microsoft asked them too, so they could steal more money from microtransactions. Not to mention if their not on the same server they can charge more.

[parabolee]

Sorry kasuke but I think you are 100% wrong about that.

For 1 Microsoft would not ask SEGA to seperate the servers, it would be retarded marketing to have it cost for the updates on 360 that is free on the PC /PS2. PSU will not charge for anything on 360 that is free on PS2/PC, never!

Plus I bet any money that Xbox 360 PSu will cost the exact same amount to play online as the PC and PS2 version. And don't give me that you need to pay for Xbox Live BS either because with FFXI and PSU you can use the FREE silver account and then pay the monthly fee for the game, THE SAME AS PS2 and PC.

So quit hating on the 360 with no foundation player! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Micro transaction don't "steal" from anyone, they offer content that otherwise would not have been released and it's your chouice to pay for it. You don't have to! The 360 marketplace is one of the coolest things about the 360 and while your complaining about it remember that Sony are going to copy it completely for PS3 (they know a great idea when they see one).

It's going to be amazing how quickly Sony fan boys change their opinion on marketplace when the exact same thing is on PS3. Same as the Wii motion sensor was "gimickY" one week and then the PS3 motion sensor (despite being inferior in every way) was an awesome additon the next. Bias sucks people!

[Kyuu]

On 2006-07-19 07:46, parabolee wrote:
Sorry kasuke but I think you are 100% wrong about that.

For 1 Microsoft would not ask SEGA to seperate the servers, it would be retarded marketing to have it cost for the updates on 360 that is free on the PC /PS2. PSU will not charge for anything on 360 that is free on PS2/PC, never!

Plus I bet any money that Xbox 360 PSu will cost the exact same amount to play online as the PC and PS2 version. And don't give me that you need to pay for Xbox Live BS either because with FFXI and PSU you can use the FREE silver account and then pay the monthly fee for the game, THE SAME AS PS2 and PC.

So quit hating on the 360 with no foundation player! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Micro transaction don't "steal" from anyone, they offer content that otherwise would not have been released and it's your chouice to pay for it. You don't have to! The 360 marketplace is one of the coolest things about the 360 and while your complaining about it remember that Sony are going to copy it completely for PS3 (they know a great idea when they see one).

It's going to be amazing how quickly Sony fan boys change their opinion on marketplace when the exact same thing is on PS3. Same as the Wii motion sensor was "gimickY" one week and then the PS3 motion sensor (despite being inferior in every way) was an awesome additon the next. Bias sucks people!

Funny to hear you talk about bias, when you're obviously biased against Sony. And please, don't try and deny it. The PS3 motion sensor is inferior in every way? You'd have to be ignoring the fact that Sony isn't going for the exact same kind of functionality as the Wii to call it inferior. Not to mention you're quite obviously a fan of Microsoft and the 360, and have a "MS can do no wrong" type of attitude.

Which is fine, you're free to believe whatever you want. Just don't attack others with obviously hypocritical remarks.

And don't neglect the fact that I personally have a dislike for Sony, and hope that the PS3 fails (because I don't think future consoles should be built upon that kind of model), if you choose to respond.

[DjDragoon]

Wait Kyuu, if parabolee was a M$ fan-boy, why would he want the servers to be connected? That doesn't make any sense at all when some of the hardcore Xbox fans don't want connected servers (for some dumb reasons). Lets try and avoid console wars for now and get back on topic.

[parabolee]

I certainly don't have a MS can do no wrong attitude, I just think that marketplace is good. I could give you a list of things MS has messed up in my opinion (how about that first controller fior a start, man that was awefull. And the Core system, retarded!), but that is not a discussion for here.

I own every single console and have no bias at all. As DjDragoon says I want to play with PC and PS2 players because I have no bias against what system you play on! I just want to play with ALL the PSU fans!

And unlike you I do NOT have a dislike against Sony or the PS3, I think they have messed many things up and it's too expensive. BUT I still want one!

I hate blind fanboyism, I like video games, regardless of what console they are on. When anyone attacks a console based on an ignorant bias I call them out, I don't care what console it is.

I personally think the motion sensor (or rather tilt sensor) on the PS3 is inferior in every way to the Wiimote, no bias involved to have that opinion. I just can't see the tilt sensor making many games better (maybe flight and car games, MAYBE!). But the Wiimote looks very exciting to play. Not going for the same thing as you say does not exluded it from being inferior! I didn't say it did the same thing in an inferior way, I said it was inferior period! It actually does a similar thing in an inferior way. Is that opinon bias? I don't think so.

And for some balance let's not forget that the Wii doesn't support Hi-Def (which I think really sucks) and has way inferior graphics. Now is that opinon bias? If so then who am I bias against again? Everyone? All consoles have up's and downs, some have more downs than others BUT they all have ups. But blind ignorant fanboyism is just a down.

So calling me a hypocrite is pretty ignorant. Your opinion is not correct by default just because you want the PS3 to fail. So your not a Sony fanboy? Thats cool, but calling me a fanboy isn't.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: parabolee on 2006-07-19 13:13 ]</font>

[VAL-0251]

Ugh, great, a fanboy discussion.

This is the point where I state the facts and hope they cut through the idiocy people are spewing.

1) Adding new platform support is HARD. XBox 360 is HARDER because XBox Live does everything in a very proprietary format. This is a greater security/lesser accessability tradeoff that Microsoft decided was worthwhile. What this means for the servers is extra work and extra overhead to integrate XBox 360 support into a combined server. It may end up being too much overhead to tolerate.

2) PS3's tilt sensor is nothing like the Wii's. The Wii uses an as-yet unimplimented motion technology that works on 3 total axes -- up/down, left/right, and forward/back. The PS3's gyroscope technology is a comparatively old technology that, while well known, is also very limited. Saying Sony copied Nintendo doesn't make sense since the two technologies are completely different and have totally differing aims, and calling it inferior is something nobody's going to be able to even touch until the technology is market tested with performance vs coherance.

Those are the plain and simple facts, and if you two want to keep arguing, you can know that it's just your own wounded pride talking. End of discussion.

[parabolee]

Er not sure who's pride is supposed to be wounded but I don't think any of the 3 posters you reffered to's pride is effected at all by either your post or each others.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to explain how the Wiimote works as no one was confused by that. The difference in the technology does not mean that they are nothing at all alike though. It's not the same no, but it offers some similar gameplay mechanics. My opinion that the tilt function (which you admit is limited technology) is inferior to the motion sensor of the Wii can easily be "touched", because as you admit the tilt function is an older and far limited technology and therefore inferior in my opinion, and that is merely my opinion. I have no desire to convince you or anyone else of that opinion I was just stating it regarding fanboyism and the fact that I hold that opinion does not make me a fanboy or anti-sony person. Oh and "calling it inferior is something nobody's going to be able to even touch until the technology is market tested with performance vs coherance" is not a fact, it is again an opinion. People confuse those two far too often, just because they think that they are right about something does not make it a fact.

"if you two want to keep arguing, you can know that it's just your own wounded pride talking. End of discussion. " - Come on dude, get off your high horse, who made you the judge of the message boards? GOD! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

But this is getting really off-topic so let's end it here please.

The points you make regarding the servers are all very true, but at the end of the day Square Enix (Final Fantasy XI) was able to overcome those issue's so i'm pretty sure Sega could too. The onyl issue was that they removed voice chat from FFXI.

[Pure-chan]

I think it will work great, provided that the added feature of voice chat doesn't result in an exploit that hard locks non XBL members (i.e. unsupported Kanji characters causing instability in PSO).

[HyperShot-X-]

On 2006-07-18 16:14, Garroway wrote:


On 2006-07-18 14:38, parabolee wrote:
Yes another solution would be to disable voice chast as a standard in the game, the new 360 dashboard update will supposedly support 6 to 8 people in a chat room. 360 players wanting to use voice chat could chat that way, the same as they do on FFXI.




This is a much better solution than having a seperate server.





Actually, there has been an official petition going on at Xbox forum for 360 Dashboard multi-user chatroom update, i suggest anyone who could help the situation check it out:
http://forums.xbox.com/
>> General Discussion >> Wish List and Feedback...

so far, this seems to be the only possible way to have all servers linked togather while the game is still being acceptable to those Livers who must have voice chat option.

This way, it should all work out for everyone as ST's initial plan to have voice chat exclusively for xbox Live only, and have the servers linked togather as majority of PSU fans wish.

there still is hope...no fate but what we make. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[VAL-0251]

On 2006-07-20 12:41, parabolee wrote:
Er not sure who's pride is supposed to be wounded but I don't think any of the 3 posters you reffered to's pride is effected at all by either your post or each others.
I saw a classic fanboy catfight brewing, and your reply about high horses and snap judgements only proves that I headed a long, cliched argument off at the pass.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

I agree with the OP mostly, although I would personally prefer that there be no voice-chat ability built into the game itself at all, but whatever.

An important thing that people have thus overlooked greatly is the ability to maintain chat logs. In PSOBB, everything is automatically logged into .txt files, which can be used for many purposes. You can use them to remind you of a sertain good memory in the game, to point out interesting/stupid/nub comments made by certain individuals, and, in some cases, to report abuse or verify legitimacy.

If people are responding via text to what they have just heard on voice-chat, then the logs would be completely jumbled and nearly impossible to follow.

[DoctorShasta]

Can someone clear something up for me? Will the ps2 and PC servers have voice-chat?

[DraginHikari]

There is no voice-chat in PSU itself for PS2 and PC.

[Sinue_v2]

Deleted for the sake of keeping topic on track...

May repost in rants forum...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sinue_v2 on 2006-07-21 02:11 ]</font>

[parabolee]

On 2006-07-20 21:43, VAL-0251 wrote:


On 2006-07-20 12:41, parabolee wrote:
Er not sure who's pride is supposed to be wounded but I don't think any of the 3 posters you reffered to's pride is effected at all by either your post or each others.
I saw a classic fanboy catfight brewing, and your reply about high horses and snap judgements only proves that I headed a long, cliched argument off at the pass.



That's funny because I'm pretty sure that it doesn't prove anything of the sort LOL.

Back on topic -

It's seems pretty clear that every day that goes by without an announcement regarding this issue that it is becoming a lost cause.

I think it would be a different matter if the 360 was more popular in Japan

[Cruisectrl]

voice chat is rediculous to me because the thot of all theses people playing the game and one guy in the crowd that sounds like hes 35 years old but hes the only one with voice chat but he doesnt realize that he's a moron... the whole idea of it makes me laugh

[VAL-0251]

On 2006-07-21 09:27, Cruisectrl wrote:
voice chat is rediculous to me because the thot of all theses people playing the game and one guy in the crowd that sounds like hes 35 years old but hes the only one with voice chat but he doesnt realize that he's a moron... the whole idea of it makes me laugh

Unless PSU is as stone-simple in design as PSO was, voice chat may well prove essential for maneuvering quickly.

Try playing any FPS game with a non VoIP squad against a team with VoIP. Unless you're much, much better than them, you will not stand a chance. They are plain and simple able to react to situations better than their opponents. This is even more important when there's a dynamic strategy/an unpredictable enemy.

If you don't believe me, just play Battlefield 2 for a little bit and play with a silent squad, then play with a VoIP squad that will yell "Tank! Take cover!" You'll notice you die a lot less.

[Carlo210]

Through my experience, many people brick voicechat because they 'dont WANT to like it because they don't WANT to start using it for some obscure reason'.

[DoctorShasta]

Voicechat rocks. omg ps2 won't have voicechat? damn. Hahah sorry this is big news to me I loved voice chat for PSO now I might just buy that 360 after all....

[parabolee]

As I have stated before, I find there are + and - to voice chat.

The most important + being the ease of use and ability to coomunicate during battle without running into the corner of the room.

The biggest - is the how casual conversation can spoil the mood of a MMORPG, especially the humour of text chat. The children that want to talk crap and adults that are morons are not really a concern because you can just ignore them.

Also girls tend to either not talk or not play because of the idiotic attitude of the boys/men when confronted with a girl playing a video game. Or it could just be that less guys can pretend to be girls in voice chat games http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Sev]

PSU really doesn't have to have voice chat. The only reason this is an issue is because some people want it. The majority of players who are going to own this game will be on PC and PS2, I'm just about sure of that. For PS2, there's no thoughts of voice chat period. For PC, there's Ventrillo or Teamspeak. For people who have a 360 or just a regular Xbox, they'll be more comfortable with voice chat. Some people will completely shut out the game simply because it doesn't have the function... Of course, if the servers are connected then there will be no voice chat, if they aren't, it'll be there. Really, it has nothing to do with Microsoft telling Sega to seperate them, or Sega wanting to keep them seperate. If you read the interview, you would pretty much know that they're considering whether or not to have them seperated. This isn't a 1 person 1 company decision right now, so try to squash the blame game.

Parabolee, you had a nice idea. It's simply the fact that people like to argue, and people don't like seperatism... Even though what you're stating is giving players a choice and not so much straight out seperating them. I wanna say that after adding the Xbox 360 to the list, an idea like this came up, but they were missing something essential so they couldn't do it.

Val, I don't think that PSU is as simple as PSO... But I'm sure that it accomodates the lack of voice chat. You could always ask the beta testers about that much, they seem to have gotten along fine. Honestly, you only need to type when you have to, other then that everyone essentially knows their roles. There is also the option to fall back and discuss your battle plan, or discuss the battle plan beforehand. I don't think that voice chat would be essential, it's simply a luxury that Xbox users are used to and that some people find annoying as hell. Another thing is... Well... Battlefields a bad example haha. I know exactly what you mean though, from experience.

[Carlo210]

I personally find textmessaging with pso tedious.

[Kyuu]

I personally find constant complaints about "ZOMG I haet typign" tedious. ^_^

[DoctorShasta]

I got so used to voice chat in Xbox that I think I NEED it now, damn you ST and getting me addicted!

Anyway voicechat was annoying when there was an annoying person in your party but if you were playing with some cool people it was fun you just get to talk about whatever you want while your taking down people and you could of course do many tactical things better. I'm sad that the 360 server will be seperated I wish it wasn't but that's life I guess

[Carlo210]

Shasta, I'll see you online then. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Saner]

it's all for the best. voice chat enthusiasts might as well get the Xbox360 version if why want voice chat so badly.


but even FF11 for X360, I heard many X360 people use keyboard/text chat anyways cause like it or not, these games are best experienced through text chat.

and besides that, the majority of online players use text chat so voice chat people either have to isolate themselves to a limited tribe of voice chat only parties, or get used to text chatting.


I mean take this forum for example. I'm impressed no one is whining about no voice chat features,everyone is using keyboard 100%. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

oh well, voice chat fans can whine while the rest of us enjoy text chat, the way the game is meant to be experienced. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[AeraLure]

I do hope the 360 is linked to the PC and PS2 since its in the best interest of community and population, as is the linking of regions, though I admit the latter is also because I have enjoyed playing on the Japanese servers in the past.

Voice chat though seems to need to be optional-only, given the PS2 is in the mix and the PS3 is off a bit. I'd also prefer voice chat remain an optional-only feature anyway since the thought of chibi FO's running around with deep guy's voices, having to listen to to other people's coversations in a clamor in the lobbies and a horde of Hu's chasing anyone female who's actually brave enough to speak runs counter current to my ideal gaming experience - speaking only for myself. Text and emotes suit me well, but I realize that's not for everyone.

In the end I hope we're all connected to the same servers, with 360 users getting voice chat if that community wants it or if its a 360 requirement (I have no idea - I dont want a 360 and dont know a thing about it). We'd probably then end up with some games being labeled voice-only, but that's ok, we may get a little of that anyway from the PC side, given third party solutions exist. I'll be on the PC, but no way will I use a voice chat system. Sorry. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Chiba-kun]

I think voice chat should remain VERY STRICTLY optional. To the extent of any non voice chatters having the ability to turn off hearing it all together, and voice chatting only allowed in an actual game, not the lobby.

[Cruisectrl]

voice chat is just all around dumb

voice chat is rediculous to me because the thot of all theses people playing the game and one guy in the crowd that sounds like hes 35 years old but hes the only one with voice chat but he doesnt realize that he's a moron... the whole idea of it makes me laugh

I agree

[HyperShot-X-]

i use both kb & headset on psoX & i like them both equally. I respect everyone's preferences but i have no respect for anyone who abuse either of 'em. See, you gotta understand that they're just two different forms of communication. More ppl using text chat in online game doesn't necessarily make it "better" than voice chat.

Also, using this forum as example doesn't quite cut it, you should know the difference b/ posting mssgs on a forum thread & instant mssging(IM) while playing online in real time.

well, i guess you could enjoy the new cut-in chat system in PSU along w/ text chat, but it could've been better if they kept the Word Select system from PSO, i got so used to that n it was part of my PSO experience, easy to use & those funny replies u can put on shortcuts for random fun at any time.... http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

I got a pso buddy, Undertow(Vega), who quit ffxi in less than a month n came back to testify that it could've made a differece if there was in-game voice chat instead of just private 1 on 1 chat. Ppl use text chat on ffxi b/c like it or not, that's the only option they're stuck with & privat chat only just isn't worth it.

So, ppl should know already that voice chat is just evolution from text chat in online gaming as a more advanced form of communication that is optional. Without that option, u r just stuck with the one n only primitive form of communication w/ kb.

In near future, everything will be voice command activated replacing manual command w/ analog buttons/switches, so start getting used to it, i humbly suggest. -_-

[Kers]

On 2006-07-27 21:15, HyperShot-X- wrote:

..."In near future, everything will be voice command activated replacing manual command w/ analog buttons/switches, so start getting used to it..."



I agree that voice chat is better for action online games then a keyboard, and that both of them are annoying when abused (but they can be regulated), but this just makes me laugh.
"In near future, everything will be voice command activated replacing manual command w/ analog buttons/switches, so start getting used to it.."
I can't truthfully say that playing any game by verbal instruction would be easier then using a controller. It's like telling a piano to hit the right notes instead of using your fingers.
How do you think this would ever come about??? Please post how because I don't see what would make you so certain to believe all manual instructions are superseded by verbal, if that was the intention of your sentence.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kers on 2006-07-27 22:43 ]</font>

[Zinsian]

All this talk about little kids acting like idiots and random a**holes acting like...well... a**holes... Dont any of you ever learn??? Mute the guy/girl and leave em bad feedback in the Voice section... and if that idiot keeps up the attitude and others leave feedback on him/her as well, then he or she will recieve a temporary voice ban and a permanent voice ban if a second offense is encountered...System works very well...

[Saner]

come now,

by the time their annoying voices reach your ears, the damage is already done and a good day becomes a bad day. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

besides even when not offending each other, voice chat always becomes more abused because people can freely speak their minds and they talk about all sorts of things that doesn't even have anything to do with PSU, etc.

in a shooter that would be fine but in a RPG that's kind of, disconnecting oneself from the experience. especially when they mouth off about every little thing about each others lives and so on.

and you can't tell them to shut up, because they aren't offending anyone and they are just speaking their mind verbally, etc. etc. that you either put up with it or leave and find another group.

voice chat is kind of like playing while on the phone, which gets really irritating.

and those things break easily, they are uncomfortable wearing them on your head, even adjusting them. if you have a sore throat, it's miserable talking at all. and if they didn't hear you, you have to REPEAT yourself.

and the freedom of voice chat really gives people too much convenience that they end up talking MORE than necessary about subjects you don't even wanna HEAR about. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/donut.gif

besides, arguments and insults are not as offensive in textchat than they are through voice chat.

ya for both styles, muting/blacklisting is available, but overall voicechat is more trouble that its worth. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/cheese.gif

[Cruisectrl]

i definitely agree with saner

[Krupp]

If adding voice chat can postpone the game again then I say we don't need it;who knows how long it could take to put 360/PS2/PC together without knowing why it was planned to be seperate in the first place. We have been waiting long enough. Typing works just fine, and there will probably be short cuts just like in PSO with the controller. If voice chat doesn't postpone the game then its fine with me. But I'm not waiting some more because people can't type a few words.

[Carlo210]

I seriously wonder what some of you do with your headsets. When you don't use it, put it in a drawer. IF you are using it, put it on and talk into it. In between using it and not using it, don't sit on it.
If a headset breaks easily for you, then many other things should too because I'm assuming you don't take much care of your stuff. If you do, then maybe you aren't getting good headsets. First of all, my logitech headset for ps2 NEVER broke within the 2 years of using it (on and off months of daily gaming/use). My 360 headset hasn't broken since I've gotten it ether.

[Saner]

that's not true Carlo, these headsets are junk! I take care of them and they seem to break internally!

I bought a brand new official headset and it doesn't work unless I bend the wire in a certain way. it's ridiculous!

and I taken care of my stuff. my powerboard keyboard lasted years longer than those x360 headsets. 1 not lasting 3 months, and the other not lasting even 2 days!

plus they are a headache to wear.



the fact is, these games are made with text chat as the primary form of communication.

text chat has never failed in mmorpgs and even PSO in the past, people use it like they normally would and it's just easy and a part of the experience that it doesn't bother people at all.


millions are proof that text chat works and is comfortable otherwise these RPGs would shift to 100% voice chat, which they won't.

[Kers]

100% of the good guilds in RPGs I've played use a system of voice chat. I'm used to hearing people trash talk on a lot of FPS games. If you have a problem tuning them out, try lowering your mic volume to where you'd have to pay attention to really hear them. It's not a creative thought and it works very well.

Anyways, in PSU, I think someone suggested to turn off your headset volume in the cities and lobbies. I don't see a problem with off topic conversations outside of missions, because one of the reasons for these lobbies is to chat! And for groups, just group with who you want to hear on missions.

[Saner]

you see but you can avoid the whole process of turning it off/whatever to block out the bad, by simply going along with text chat.

besides guilds are a side thing, they don't even form the basis of common get togethers and default communication.

maybe because I freelance more than isolate myself among like-minded individuals, I found cool people and fun with text chat and no one ever whines and desires voice chat in our sessions.

and the reasons for guilds is because voice chat people in a rpg, that is dominant in text chat,
are more than likely to be looked upon as blacksheep of the community, which is the reason why those guilds are formed to accomodate those types of people, since their preference of communication can't reach text-chat users. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif


because I dare anyone to try voice chatting openly in WoW, FF11 or PSO. They wouldn't get anywhere without other voice chatters. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Saner on 2006-07-28 12:11 ]</font>

[Zinsian]

lol i kinda agree.. i neva had to rebuy anything probably except the controllers.. i dunno what people be doing with their headsets but dam. anyways about voice chat.
people who play on the PC more are used to text chat and text blocking.
people who play on Xbox Live more are used to voice chat and voice muting.
people on the PC right away cant stand a second of whining and mic abuse.
people on Xbox Live are used to " all of that ", they simply mute the person.
Simple as that. Everybody has their side of the story. You cant force one to truely agree with you and show who's right. Its their belief (LoL) and they're used to what they experience the most.

[HyperShot-X-]

in reply to Kers's earlier post:
i meant that last line in context of the tech talk i was talking about in general like commanding advanced A.I. w/ verbal instruction in everyday life n stuff like all the tech devices we use n things you do while driving cars n all that... i thought almost everyone w/ common sense would've got the pt i was trying to get across except those that are like fundamental christians who interpret bible word for word literally, i mean not that u r one of em but u know what i mean,...

& Zinsian,
that pretty much sums up this whole discussion, it all comes down to their personal preferences n respecting others preference, & lecturing about their likes or dislikes is just all whining n doesn't really work on everyone. so try to give it a rest n spare everyone's conscious, would appreciate it really.

*one more thing: my headset never broke for over 2 yrs i used on my original xbox b/c i didn't break it by accidentally sitting on it. I can't wait to get my wireless headset for 360 that u attach to ur ear, that'd be uber cool. man, those high tech thingies r just irresistable http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: HyperShot-X- on 2006-07-28 19:04 ]</font>

[Miyoko]

They could just have it there as an OPTION... My guild uses teamspeak in WoW, and I just talk to them with text. (I'm to cheap to buy a mic -- a device I won't ever use anyways http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif)

[Kers]

HyperShot, yes, I definitely needed clarification lol. If you don't mind knowing why I viewed it that way, it's because I've actually had an argument over the future uses of voice chat vs. keyboard/controller. It originated from using a mic to type text. It was during highschool with some friends and I found it funny that (I thought) you brought it up.

Also, I have never fully broken a mic. I've stepped on them, tripped on the wires, broken the headset pieces (mostly due to playing with no light but the tv), but I've never had one stop working. I wonder how Saner does it.

[zandra117]

I stepped on my 360 mic and it didn't break. The original xbox mic was a piece of crap though, I just picked it up one day and it broke but it still worked. Then I got a mad cats mic that attatched to my ear and that caused too much echo so I purposely broke it lol. My 360 mic is well designed though.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: zandra117 on 2006-07-29 06:40 ]</font>

[littleman2347]

Ok play nice kids this will all work out on it own. If sega did do this it just means more time we have to wait to get PSU and personaly i would like to get it as soon as i can dont you.

[Saner]

On 2006-07-29 07:49, littleman2347 wrote:
Ok play nice kids this will all work out on it own. If sega did do this it just means more time we have to wait to get PSU and personaly i would like to get it as soon as i can dont you.



ya we don't want any more delays! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

[littleman2347]

eeee xactly i mean we have al ready had to wait long enuff after first delay but if it make the game better i can wait dont know about yall

[VAL-0251]

On 2006-07-28 10:30, Saner wrote:
come now,

by the time their annoying voices reach your ears, the damage is already done and a good day becomes a bad day.
Wow.

A good day turned to a bad day by hearing someone's voice over an internet headset.

I don't think I can even begin to do that statement justice, so I'm just going to highlight it for everyone else to see.

[DoctorShasta]

Saner was just kidding val, chill out. Although omg some of those voices made me want to kill myself xD

[VAL-0251]

On 2006-07-31 09:24, DoctorShasta wrote:
Saner was just kidding val, chill out. Although omg some of those voices made me want to kill myself xD

As long as someone wants to take their opinions and misinformation and state them as fact the way Saner does (for example, headsets do NOT just 'break down on their own', that's crap, and I can prove it with circuit theory if someone wants to challenge me on it), I see no reason to imagine anything they say is a 'joke'.

[Velocity_7]

I have a PS2 headset which I've only bothered to use in MGO and yet it hasn't seen much use there. It'd be nice if my $40 investment can be put to good use here as well.

[Carlo210]

My headset for the 360 came with my 360. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[DoctorShasta]

Yea having a 360 would be awesome for voice chat but I'm sticking with ps2 its a shame because can't ps2 support voice chat? I mean I know they have headsets.

[turtle323]

Lol i have had so many ps2 head sets for socom3 at least five, and they just wont stop breaking.

[DoctorShasta]

My Xbox headset was pretty reliable I mean it broke but that was only cuz someone sat right on top of it when it was already in a strained position just snapped in half it still works but it can't stay on your head anymore T_T

[Saner]

but see, while people make all these headset/voice chat concerns and 'needs',

keyboard users are laying back all cozy, drinking some lemonade, all set to go since these games are made for text chat anyway. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif







<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Saner on 2006-08-01 12:03 ]</font>

[DoctorShasta]

Yes Saner I will be using a keyboard for the ps2 but I played the Xbox and have grown to love voice chat on MMO's I just don't like having to take my hands off the controller to say something because then you can't really just chat while your playing, if you want an actual conversation you have to either slow down the pace of playing or just stop

[DevilsArm]

my 360 headset hasnt broke yet, lol works fine, had it since january
i hope all 3 servers are linked, it would make the population better and the experience imo would be better but if they don't o well, i already have 3-4 friends that are getting it for 360 with me so ill still be happy. voice chat better not make that decision though if needed im willing to buy a keyboard if they have to eliminate voice chat i used a keyboard for pso and it was fun!



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DevilsArm on 2006-08-02 16:34 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DevilsArm on 2006-08-02 16:36 ]</font>

[Keyeszx]

okay one problem unless this isnt going to happen if voice chat was allowed imagone all the voices in the lobby/cities i mean isnt their like 100 people or somethin in one lobby/citie at a time i mean unless u can filter that out which i doubt theyed be able to do it smoothly

[DoctorShasta]

I don't know the lobby's on xbox got a bit loud but I never really seemed to notice that much maybe cuz I never stayed in the lobby long. It only was loud when a n00b would run around screaming "LOOKING FOR (insert item here)" over and over