Expert Class

[hypersaxon]

Okay, since it's been pretty much confirmed that there is an Expert class that allows you to combine two classes together, I felt like making a topic about it so that we can keep exclusive discussion of it here.

While this is great news, we don't really know anything about how Expert classes work. This topic is for purely speculating how Expert class could work, in making sense for a balanced gameplay experience. So feel free to hop in and make your own comments as to anything about Expert class. What are you most excited about for this new feature? How do you think they will go about balancing things as far as Photon Arts, weapon selection, etc. go? What are your tentative plans for taking advantage of Expert class?

I myself am very excited about Expert Class. I always thought that dual wielding was going to eventually get overshadowed by a lot of the other weapon options. Like, why dual wield a Handgun and Saber if one of those weapons isn't going to be used to its full potential? If I'm a Hunter using a Handgun, my accuracy and ability to use Photon Arts is going to be extremely limited, so why use the combination at all? Now that they have Expert class, it makes dual wielding much more viable, and also opens up new options. Since I can dual wield both Hunter and Ranger weapons that are exclusive to their respective classes, that means as a Hunter I now have access to Mechguns which is pretty sweet.

Other obvious benefits would be, playing as a HU/FO and getting the added benefits of buffing your character and healing. You'd have a larger arsenal of weapons to choose from, being able to use weapons from up to two different classes at once. Plus you'd be able to use PAs from two different classes as well. Being able to dual wield and use both Skill and Bullet PAs will probably be insane.

Now the real question is, there's gotta be some sort of sacrifice if you're going to dual class, right? Or is Sonic Team actually going to make you "both classes at once?" It could make the game unbalancing, but no one knows how difficult the game is going to be at later levels. Just thinking of something like Ultimate mode in PSU is just mind-boggling, so perhaps Expert class is somewhat of a necessity in order to make sure you have decent stats for when you get to the top letter grade missions.

Of course, it would make a bit of sense to make one of the classes a tad bit weaker than normal. But the way they'd go about doing that is a mystery. Would certain abilities for your other class choice be cut in half depending on your choice? How would this option be unlocked to begin with? How much would it cost at the counter to change into a hybrid class? What affect would it have on your stats, your PA options, weapon selection, etc.?

I'm off to work, so I'll leave you guys to discuss and then I'll hop in again when I come home to add more. I should have plenty of time to think about this subject while I'm standing around waiting for tables to wipe off http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Carlo210]

Everyone will shoot for HuFo or RaFo. I, personally, think it's lame and the idea alone totally unbalances the basic, perfectly balanced class system we've known until now.

[mechatra]

Carlo you are without a doubt the most skeptical, cynical person I have ever met.

Way to go *Hi-five*

[Fleece]

I think he should be limited to 20 posts a day.

[NDkEwL]

Carlo just doesn't like the HuFo idea becasue I think he is going to be cast, making it nearly pointless. He seems like a good guy though, don't get mad at him. I enjoy his opinions, they are enlightening to a side I won't experience since I won't make a cast.

I, however, am going to love being able to stay alive when I reach Expert Mode when the force is one the other side of the room and his resta doesn't reach me. That is going to be very nice...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: NDkEwL on 2006-07-23 16:03 ]</font>

[Carlo210]

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif
It's just because I'm worried to death about MS and ST requiring us 360 owners to pay for XBLGold and a hunter's license.

Back on topic.
I mean, casts are basically useless when it comes to dual classing. I guess you could say one reason I'm not too happy about expert classes IS because I wanna be a cast. Sorry. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif
Anywho, the whole advantage of dual classing is, basically, to become half force. Admit it. Most people are just happy that they'll be able to heal and buff themselves, as well as 'attack from range' as rangers would.
The reason casts would be a dumb class to pick is because melee+rangers are pointless. I mean, as a high level ranger, you'll be dealing a lot of damage from range. As a high level hunter, you'll be doing high amounts of damage at melee range. There is no need to have 'both'. If a hunter wants range, he'll choose to be half force and will sacrafic ranged-power for buffs and restoration technics.
Rangers have no need to go half hunter because, first of all, rangers shouldn't touch a weapon. They won't be as good as a hunter in melee and, when you're a ranger, there is no point in going melee to hit for 1/2 the damage.
But, whatever. I wanted to be a cast, but since I can't find one good reason to be a RaHu, since there is no point in having 2 means of physical attacking, then I may have to rethink.
Casts suck and always will suck at technics.

Edit: I've just now realized that I'm getting a bad rep on this site and that people are starting to dislike me.
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif
It's probably because I'm talking about my worries for how ST will treat the xbox360 version of PSU. I'm hoping it doesn't become PSOX, a 15$ a month uncared for version of the game.


*high five*

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2006-07-23 16:05 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2006-07-23 16:06 ]</font>

[MaximusLight]

For me I like the idea, I like to multi-task, but I would have been fine otherwise too.

[Kers]

Dual-class balances the class/race combinations. Humans can do anything, Newmans got their mind stuff going, beasts highest attack power casts all around physical. ST has had so much time to think this through, this should balance the game and give it more customization and freedom more then anything else.

[Carlo210]

The races already were balanced. Remember, you can change jobs at any time. Having a cast would mean that, if you wanted to play as a force, too bad - make another character. I thought that was how ST was balancing it, and it sounded fine. The dual classes balance things somewhat, but beasts being half-force and casts being half-force are unlucky.

[Sinue_v2]

This is just a guess, but perhaps ST will reset job levels when you dual-job. Both classes will be nerfed a bit, but you'll gain the advantage of being a bit more well rounded. Not to mention that this will help extend playtime - and increase the amount of revenue ST will be able to bring in from online fees.

For example I have a Numan female with lvl 20 HUnter and lvl 20 FOrce. When you go to switch jobs, you'll have the option to combine the two in expert mode and become a lvl 1 Hu/Fo. If you have all three jobs maxed, then, perhaps, you can switch between dual-job classes the same way you switch between single job classes. Hu/Ra, Hu/Fo, Ra/Hu, Ra/Fo, Fo/Hu, Fo/RA - which in effect triples the amount of jobs to level.

Expert would simply mean that you no longer have a set "niche" in your party - and are weakened (severely in the case of your secondary job) compaired to your compaired to single job characters.

That's just my guess at this point.


It's just because I'm worried to death about MS and ST requiring us 360 owners to pay for XBLGold and a hunter's license.

I could care less about this concern, because I want LiveGold for other games on the Xbox and 360. I'll end up paying both of them anyhow.

[Kers]

Unlucky? Nanoblast and SUV look extremely usefull. Humans and Newmans don't have anything like it. If you want to use techniques you don't have to become a force.

Off topic, but I own a 360, along with 6 of my friends. We all use Xbox Live Gold so, not that I think you'd have to subscribe to Gold to play PSU, it doesn't matter to us, and probably the great majority of the Xbox 360 online community.

[mechatra]

I don't dislike you Carlo ^_^

You're very level headed, just rather pessimistic.
I'm just happy I got my hi-five!

Back on topic for me.
I'm glad to hear about the Dual classing, but im really hoping that taking on a second job will limit your main job aswell, for example you could either be a lvl 20 HU, or split your levels to 15 HU - and 5 FO.

This way if you stay solid in one class you wont get the dual class benefits, but you'll be more adept in your own single class.

Of course I say this mainly out of personal want, but I feel this would still keep a steady balance.

I want my Pure Hunter Beast RAWR! ~_~

[Saner]

the Dual Classes is a great reward for those who advance far enough to achieve that option! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

this leads to more types of combinations. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/cone.gif


I mean really, were people in PSO complaining HUs and RAs could use some techniques?

in the classic Phantasy Stars, practically everyone except androids could use techniques, no matter their class.

(the exception is PSIII cyborgs, that are able to use techniques, so PSU's Casts are closer to that thankfully). http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif


people are still free to use the types of weapons they want, etc. etc.

so if you wanna be pure HU, then don't use RA and FO exclusive weapons. That's all there is to it!


But I think some people complain because of the 'inferiority complex'. and the 'unique jobs each class is for'.

so in the case of FO. A HU/FO makes a natural FO not as needed.

but anyways even not as elites and still low level cadets, people can still solo all the way. it's all possible.

I don't think Dual Classes will hurt teamwork. in fact, it will make teams stronger and more fun than before.

this means a HU/FO can heal a FO if they are out of PP or something. or assist a FO in healing someone else. etc. etc.

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/hotdog.gif

in the long run, the Dual Classes is a welcome treat.

it's not like everyone can access it right away.

It's reserved for those who train hard enough to EARN IT http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[Carlo210]

I've only been pessimistic 'lately'. I'm getting more worried and less confident in PSU360. Also, there's not much to talk about, and it's more 'interesting' to be 'interesting' on these forums than just post 'yeah, dual classing sounds cool. I'm sure it'll turn out fine'.
Basically, I'm posting any thoughtd I have whatsoever. It's more exciting that way. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif
That may be why some of you are thinking I'm being really pessimistic. That, and the fact that I've been in the mood lately as well.

[Saner]

the silver and gold account issue wont be an issue.

there is a 95% chance you only need a silver account.



but if you do need a gold account. well. there's always PS2. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[Kers]

Carlo, you could make a Fan Fic about PSU360 I would find that interesting lol.

If you aren't forced to dual class at the higher levels yeah it makes sense to have certain weapons and techniques/abilities single class exclusive.

[Carlo210]

Yeah. I'm just typing my thoughts.
RaFo - redundant and not in need of constant healing, though it'll prove useful for bosses. Casts and Beasts will not be good at their technics because of their low technic power.
RaHu - also redundant in terms of practical use. Either you're gonna be better at using weapons or you're gonna be better at using guns. Whichever one you excel at is what you should use. Being good at 'both' is a redundant idea on its own. If you are primarily a hunter+ranger, you may be more accurate than a HuFo, but also you will not be able to buff yourself nor would you be able to heal yourself. If you are primarily a ranger+hunter, you may be stroner and better at melee than a rafo, but you're better with guns anyways. Heck, being a ranger, you should use guns, not melee weapons. Casts and beasts are good choices for this job combination, as strange as it may seem to choose a rahu or hura in the first place.
HuFo - Best. Expert. Class. Ever. Except for beasts and casts. They don't really have a special place when it comes to expert classes. The best HuFos are Humans, followed by Newmans.

^Speculation

[Kyuu]

I rather wish they hadn't revealed the Expert Mode/Class/Level/whatever. People are making rather pointless speculation about a feature about which they know nothing. Not to mention whining about balance, when they don't even know the races/classes were balanced in the first place (they weren't; humans were second-class for every job, and newmans were pretty poor for rangers, and absolutely bottom-rung for hunters, whereas no other race had their strength entirely negated for two of three classes).

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I would like it to be like this: you have your primary class, Hunter, RAnger, Force, or whatever in which you can have 20 level photon arts and then another be your secondary which you can have some profiency but not be as good as it.

[Saner]

LOL sounds a lot like subjobs that way. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

in any case, I see Expert Classes as a positive thing.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Saner on 2006-07-23 18:30 ]</font>

[Ether]

HU/FO is going to be awful. There I said it. Canes only hold two techs at once, so right off the bat you're very limited in number of techs. You'd have to bring two canes just to carry shifta, deband, resta, and anti. But if you do that, you've already used two of the six weapons you're allowed to carry at once. Now you're sacrificing your overall weapon versatility, and also not being able to carry a weapon of every element.

Then theres the issue of actually casting. You have to have the cane equiped in order to do it, so for a hunter, you'll have to put away your big sword, equip a cane, cast resta, put away the cane, and take out your sword again. Every single time you cast resta. Maybe its just me, but the thought of hunters being able to heal up after clearing a room, doesnt sound very overpowered. The only way they'd be able to attack with a cane, would be to use a handgun in their offhand, which isn't their specialty to begin with, sacrificing even more attack power

[Nuclearranger]

I Think it sounds great
Doesnt a RA-focast Sound alot like a RAmar? Think about it craptascular Magic and awasome ATA!

[MaximusLight]

Hmmmm.... you know this is just a though but I have a feeling that the combined class will probably be a little less powerful than the single classes because you be doing half of eack job, so in otherwords two jobs, half the power of each, of course I'm just throwing this out there so I might be wrong.

[EnixBelmont]

On 2006-07-23 18:48, Ether wrote:
HU/FO is going to be awful. There I said it. Canes only hold two techs at once, so right off the bat you're very limited in number of techs. You'd have to bring two canes just to carry shifta, deband, resta, and anti. But if you do that, you've already used two of the six weapons you're allowed to carry at once. Now you're sacrificing your overall weapon versatility, and also not being able to carry a weapon of every element.

Then theres the issue of actually casting. You have to have the cane equiped in order to do it, so for a hunter, you'll have to put away your big sword, equip a cane, cast resta, put away the cane, and take out your sword again. Every single time you cast resta. Maybe its just me, but the thought of hunters being able to heal up after clearing a room, doesnt sound very overpowered. The only way they'd be able to attack with a cane, would be to use a handgun in their offhand, which isn't their specialty to begin with, sacrificing even more attack power



If they keep technics force weapon only.....I agree, they'll suck. HU/RA for me.

[Carlo210]

RaHu!

By the way, hura means you're hunter, and then chose ranger later on.
Rahu means the cotnrary.

[PrinceRhys]

I like mechatra's idea of splitting up class proficiency for expert classes (i.e. HU-FO can be 15 HU + 5 FO). That doesn't sound too overpowered to me. Yeah, the HU can cast techniques, but he/she will be less proficient at being a hunter. HP, ATP, ATA will all take a hit compared to a dedicated HU.

To make things really interesting, what they could do is have you choose how much you want to dedicate to each job so people will really be individualized. One person may choose a more HU oriented HU-FO (split 17 HU, 3 FO) whereas another might choose more force power (split 10 both ways). Might not work; might make things unbalanced somehow, but it's just an idea that probably won't get implemented. I thought it might be an interesting twist, though.

[The-King]

On 2006-07-23 18:48, Ether wrote:
HU/FO is going to be awful. There I said it. Canes only hold two techs at once, so right off the bat you're very limited in number of techs. You'd have to bring two canes just to carry shifta, deband, resta, and anti. But if you do that, you've already used two of the six weapons you're allowed to carry at once. Now you're sacrificing your overall weapon versatility, and also not being able to carry a weapon of every element.

Then theres the issue of actually casting. You have to have the cane equiped in order to do it, so for a hunter, you'll have to put away your big sword, equip a cane, cast resta, put away the cane, and take out your sword again. Every single time you cast resta. Maybe its just me, but the thought of hunters being able to heal up after clearing a room, doesnt sound very overpowered. The only way they'd be able to attack with a cane, would be to use a handgun in their offhand, which isn't their specialty to begin with, sacrificing even more attack power

You know, that sounds pretty difficult, I think They'll make it somewhat easy, but with the Action Palette might make what you said pretty easy

[Oji_Retta]

On 2006-07-23 18:48, Ether wrote:
HU/FO is going to be awful. There I said it. Canes only hold two techs at once, so right off the bat you're very limited in number of techs. You'd have to bring two canes just to carry shifta, deband, resta, and anti. But if you do that, you've already used two of the six weapons you're allowed to carry at once. Now you're sacrificing your overall weapon versatility, and also not being able to carry a weapon of every element.

Then theres the issue of actually casting. You have to have the cane equiped in order to do it, so for a hunter, you'll have to put away your big sword, equip a cane, cast resta, put away the cane, and take out your sword again. Every single time you cast resta. Maybe its just me, but the thought of hunters being able to heal up after clearing a room, doesnt sound very overpowered. The only way they'd be able to attack with a cane, would be to use a handgun in their offhand, which isn't their specialty to begin with, sacrificing even more attack power



Ooh. Don't forget about cast time. Its not smart to run up into close quarters and then cast. To cast you'll always have to turn and run back then cast and then switch back to melee and then go into close quarters again. Is that right?

[Carlo210]

Casting worked fine in pso, retta. I think the cast times are longer in psu, but hatever. I'm not sure.

[PrinceRhys]

In regards to HuRa being useless, I could see ranger accuracy benefiting a hunter. If mobs do get hard for hunters to hit at higher levels, HuRa could give a helpful ATA boost.

Hmm... true, Casts are already accurate. But we can only guess what harder levels will bring. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought someone said photon arts are supposed to be less accurate than regular attacks, so more accurate PAs are a plus. What's that? What are the advantages of RaHu? Umm... haven't quite figured that out yet. Next question please.

[DrewSeleski]

I don't really understand why people assume everyone would want force as thier second class. Not everyone likes using techniques and if you are in a group with a force they obviously will have more powerful techniques. But more important than the actual power of the abilities is the style in which you WANT to play. I personally don't want to ever use a technique. I also find the idea of using a rifle as well as knuckles great. Not because of any actual advantages that might have but because that is waht I think is cool.
Not to mention you are thinking about this all wrong.
PSU is not PSO.
The hunters, rangers and forces you used in PSO are not the ones you will use in PSU. It's a whole different game, not just another episode. I really doubt Sonic Team would make something that is unbalanced. You don't know what using melee weapons, ranged weapons or techniques is like in PSU(or at least in the later part of PSU where expert class comes in since the beta doesn't go that far). Same with the enemies. The way you play the game will not be exactly like PSO.

[Saner]

On 2006-07-23 18:48, Ether wrote:
HU/FO is going to be awful. There I said it. Canes only hold two techs at once, so right off the bat you're very limited in number of techs. You'd have to bring two canes just to carry shifta, deband, resta, and anti. But if you do that, you've already used two of the six weapons you're allowed to carry at once.

oh come now, all Hunters need are Resta and Shifta (or Deband) and they are the ultimate tanks or powerhouses with that.

plus switching weapons is a breeze. they materialize the instant you select them, you can simply back away from the enemy until its ready for use.




Then theres the issue of actually casting. You have to have the cane equiped in order to do it, so for a hunter, you'll have to put away your big sword, equip a cane, cast resta, put away the cane, and take out your sword again. Every single time you cast resta.

there is no reason to cast resta unless they need healing, besides they having healing items as an alternative too! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/burger.gif

usually the best time switch to a force weapon and heal is when their health is below 50%. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/frenchfries.gif

it's not like they will use resta each time they get hit a little.

besides Force weapons taking up space in a Hunter's weapon selection is not a bad thing. a Hunter just needs 1 or 2 blades, a handgun, and the rest can be whatever they want. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

easy as pie. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Saner on 2006-07-23 20:28 ]</font>

[Ether]

On 2006-07-23 20:26, Saner wrote:oh come now, all Hunters need are Resta and Shifta (or Deband) and they are the ultimate tanks or powerhouses with that.


And if theres a force around, they will be the ones casting shifta and deband. HU/FO will be similar to HUnewearl, useful if theres no true force around, but in a balanced team setting, underpowered resta wont be saving the day very often

[Saner]

well ya but every bit of resta helps. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

especially if the Forces happen to not be doing their jobs, or the "HuFos" are getting sloppy and carelessly getting hit. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[Sev]

Beast Hu/Ra get's over the ACC hump. Newman Hu/Fo gets rid of all the people damn near in tears about not using spells as a Newman since it's their God given right or something.

I'm going Human, but I'll still go Hu/Ra because for a straight melee and some gun character, it's the most efficient combo in my opinion. Yes healing helps, and so does buffing, but if I have a Force around or another Hu/Fo I don't need it. It'd be best for me to take the ACC bonus from Ranger and do more up close damage. I could also cover fire people that are farther away from me after my mobs down. There's plenty of uses for that.

Ra/Hu or Ra/Fo both up the survivability of a Ranger. If you go Hunter you'll get more ATP, HP, and probably DEF. That'll make it not so horrible if the mob gets close, and great for soloing. Ra/Fo is basically extra support. Support fire without support spells. I don't see any uselessness to any of this.

Fo/Hu stops all the "I can't believe there's no melee Force" crying. You can do it now, so shut the hell up. Please.

Ok, so you don't have to shut the hell up if you don't want to but basically... Everyones getting there wish. It's not as unbalanced as you may think if you look at the bigger picture... It'll probably balance things out better. And I'd also assume that your abilities are halved between the two classes or you have a main/sub thing going. It's not going to be completely unfair, and hey... It makes Human's more desirable so I can't possibly be upset by the news.

[Saner]

yes! it's even great news for the Human race due to their omnipotent nature.

so everyone wins in the long run. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[Carlo210]

Casts ftw!

[theShoal]

Thank you Ether.

I hadn't thought about it that way before. And now that I do, HU/FO will suck. I dont understabd why ST doesn't just let you cast without the weapons.

[Saner]

cause then there would be no point in dual classes or even Forces if everyone could just use technics out of the blue.

I like needing a Force weapon to channel technic magic to cast it.


it's cooler that way. at least for the PSU style, it fits. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

and HU/FO will not suck. all combinations will be balanced in their own way. there is no wrong way to play.

a HU/FO will definitely last longer than a HU/RA, because while HU/RA is better at offense,

HU/FO is better at survival (while still being skilled with blades, the strongest weapons of all, and still can use handguns for range) cause they have alternate means to restore their HP, which is the most important thing, cause what good is strong short and long range offense if you are kissing the ground? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[Lyrise]

Hu/Fo will suck like hell when fighting bosses and big mobs. In fact, the FO aspect is what causes people to be lazy; with resta at their disposal, who needs mates? And this is where the problems begin. Assuming you're progressing as the game intended and not fighting bosses and monsters 10 levels below you, one hit can hurt a LOT (case in point, the Onma Gogg rock, in A rank, -1200~hp provided you survive). While you're switching to your force weapon and casting resta, you are leaving yourself wide open, you'll just end up recasting resta over and over again to survive. Ditto with the mobs. You're going to get caught, take even more damage while switching, and have your cast cancelled over and over again until you die.

Assuming that adding FO to your HU form doesn't cause you to be lazy, eventually with meseta, anything a HU/FO can do, a Hu/Ra can do BETTER with items. Need to heal? Use a trimate. Need to heal others? Star Atomizer. There are also 5 different stat boosting items, and that pretty much covers all the boosting techs (including that item-exclusive effect of god like stat raises when using Megistride). Since items are instantaneous unlike techs, or weapon switching, you never detract from the time you spend in offense, also considering that not every mission you run allows you to take your sweet time (If I'm given a time limit of 7 minutes, the last thing I want to do is waste 2 seconds changing the weapon, 1-2 seconds to cast, and another 2 seconds to switch my weapon again, only to repeat it at least 5 more times later in the mission.)

And before anyone mentions that you could heal yourself more times with resta than with items, think of it this way. If you happen to waste 20 star atomizers, 20 trimates, 20 dimates, and 20 monomates in one mission and either complete it just barely, or completely fail, then you shouldn't even be there in the first place. Sure you could argue that a HU/FO could use the items just the same, but that would completely defeat the main reason why a HU/FO would even exist.

As pretty much everyone before me mentioned it, all we know of extra mode and the game mechanics itself, is all speculation unless one of us is holding the full version. For all we know, there could be an overall cap on your class levels and that would just make every type level you gain a more delicate issue, or that your options are severely limited when doubling up.

[Kers]

So Hu/Fo could have a more difficult time when fighting bosses and big mobs. A hunter would have a difficult fighting at long range. A force would have a difficult time in tanking area effect damage. Rangers will have a difficult time uhh, doing whatever they don't handle well, like close range combat or needed damage spikes.

In the E3 Interview with Takao Miyoshi he states that he placed balance as the highest importance. Expect every combination to have it's positives, it's negatives, and why they exist.

Edit: grammar

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kers on 2006-07-24 00:02 ]</font>

[Dre_o]

Looking forward to combining classes. I'm tired of peoples cynical, over-employed, pre-emptive, under informed, rash, foolish, completely unstable, BITCHING WHINING!!

[Tycho]

I see a lot of people assuming that one of the two chosen classes would be a character's 'main' job. I wonder if it will really be like this, or that there would just be three new hybrid class options.
On a sidenote, I thought that the carrying limit for [Star] Atomizers was x10, but I'm not entirely sure since I can't seem to check it at the moment.
I think it would be weird if one could divide one's job levels over two different classes, because then, even at level 1 it might be possible to benefit from class advantages such as weapon usabilities, or Photon Art caps.
Anyway, I'm more optimistic about combining the HU and RA classes than either of the two with FO. Mixing the 'physical' classes might be interesting if only for any statistical advantages (besides that I do not disapprove of Rangers meleeing and Hunters sniping either, since Hunters' ATP and Rangers' ATA might still benefit them enough to make it worthwhile), while most of a Force's advantages (which, going by the outdated prequel would be mostly support) can be made up for in other ways. First off there are items that can recover HP or temporarily increase stats (the former of which can be stacked in decent numbers), seconly it is possible to allow an allied NPC to join battle (though, would these be competent enough for boss battles?), and finally, Partner Machinery could be used in battle as well.
I wonder how this development will really affect the game balance, since we can't really judge it yet as of now.

[-Klaus-]

I'm actually really pleased to hear this, now it resolves the
Newman hunter issue... they're no longer the underdogs. Just go HU/FO and you're even with all the other classes. In my opinion this is marvelous. Even though I'm playing as a cast.

Bots ftw.

But anyway,

This is also good for me... even though I won't have much TP due to my race. But it's better than a situation where I'd run out of monomates. If that happens... bam, resta, thanks to my half-FO..ness. Yes.

RA/FO is going to be freaking AWESOME. *cough* For me, anyway. :]

[kazuma56]

Personally, I may go RA/HU now, the announcement of this feature makes me happy to know that I can "remake" my RAmar in PSO which I used as a "melee ranger" often enough, and since I CAN play online anytime I want this time around, I will have no problems getting into groups with other people who support me while I fight.

Plus, as some people mentioned before me, a RA/HU (for you casts out there) could probably outdamage a Hu/RA (beast) just because you will hit stuff more often then not when you range/melee (casts have 2nd best ATP too) compared to the other race(s).

I think that the "penalty" for expert class would be something steep, like you start at a character lvl of X but job lvls of y (x2), and the only way to increase xp to "lvl" those jobs again would be to get an A+ (possibly S only) ranks on a mission which will award you experience in your dual classing.... or probably go FFXI's route and penalize you by "deleveling" your jobs if you fail to much times in quick succesion.

[hypersaxon]

Here's my view on all the different options:

HU/RA - A great choice for those planning to dual wield with Hunter and Ranger weapons, and for those just seeking an increase in accuracy. Having the added accuracy bonus from Ranger would help not only with dual wielding, but hitting things in general. It would also help your accuracy when using a sidearm while dual wielding, and allow you to use higher level PAs with your guns, along with the PAs from your Hunter weapons. Also, races that have naturally low accuracy, like Beasts, would benefit greatly from this combination.

HU/FO - For players who absolutely want Shifta / Deband at all times. Of course, the balance to being able to cast would be the decrease in HP. Your character would most likely take more damage from enemies than other characters. Of course, you'd also have greater resistance against magic. The only other downside would be that you have to switch weapons to cast, but all you need is two Staffs: one with healing spells, one with support spells.

RA/HU - A Cast would love this one. They already have the highest accuracy in the game, why not add some attack power to go with it? Another good choice for dual wielding if you want your gun to be the primary form of attack, and your melee weapon to just be secondary.

RA/FO - Once again, mainly for buffing. For those RAmar lovers out there who want their healing and support spells, as well as other races of course. Newmans would probably take the most advantage of this option, if they plan on using guns as their primary attack option.

FO/HU - Because everyone wants to have a battle mage apparently http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif this would probably be best for Beasts, they would probably make great battle mages with their higher strength and HP.

FO/RA - Great option for those wanting to dual wield Canes and Handguns. Cast with your Cane until your PP is gone, then fire away with PAs from your Handgun until you get PP back. (assuming each weapon gets a seperate PP bar, right?) Casts could make good use of this with their high accuracy, as well as other weaker characters wanting to stay away from the enemy.

[Ibuka]

It's almost like i get to have my RAmarl and HUnewearl back! n_n I love the idea!
But how hard you most likely have to work to get up to expert level is probally worth it

lol Saber in one hand Cane in the other... *Drool* HUnewearl cool on here since now that techs seem to do a hell of alot of damage



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ibuka on 2006-07-24 02:38 ]</font>

[hypersaxon]

I'm not sure if having an Expert class will change the dual wielding system. The whole left and right hand thing may still be in effect even if you chose HU/FO or FO/HU. It'd be nice if the hand thing was dependant on what class you were using, so a HU/FO or FO/HU would have Saber in right hand and Cane in left hand. But as of right now no one knows if that's what'll happen.

From what was seen in the beta, characters used Hunter and Force weapons in the right hand, and Ranger weapons in the left hand. But as I said, maybe having an Expert class would allow you to use Saber and Cane at the same time. That definitely would be sweet.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hypersaxon on 2006-07-24 02:35 ]</font>

[Ibuka]

But i kinda don't see how some people say that this unbalances the game...
Since there is no battle mode... So does it really matter? It's not like your fighting against the other players... Your fighting along side them

So to me stuff like this don't bother me about someone else being a little more powerful then another character.. Along as your killing the Monsters and not me i wouldn't care





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ibuka on 2006-07-24 03:23 ]</font>

[Jife_Jifremok]

On 2006-07-24 02:38, Ibuka wrote:
But i kinda don't how some people say that this unbalances the game...
Since there is no battle mode... So does it really matter? It's not like your fighting against the other players... Your fighting along side them.
So to me stuff like this don't bother me about someone else being a little more powerful then another character.. Along as your killing the Monsters and not me i wouldn't care

You'd be amazed at how much balance matters even in a cooperative online game. I know that when my favorite style is far outclassed by everything else, I start feeling rather cheated. I can't help but feel forced to use only certain styles that I would rather not have to play with, and that the trouble I go through by sticking with what I want doesn't get sufficiently rewarded. It gives off the feeling that the game was lazily developed. When I feel like I have a nigh-equal chance to do just as well as everyone else with different styles, then I feel like I'm playing a very well-crafted game. While I think about these things when I play offline games, I feel that the same applies to online games as well.

[Ibuka]

But how the game seem the classes won't be far out classed with one another how PSO kinda was.
It seems like it's just a little more powerful and not too much since how the game seems now. And we don't know how far a part the characters will be from each other yet in power or balanced wise. And the time it takes most likely to get this Expert Level you would probally have cleared almost the whole game and will be a high level. And it seems like it will help solo play a bit with your PA and Parnter Character Cards

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ibuka on 2006-07-24 04:02 ]</font>

[hypersaxon]

Like I've said before, no one knows how the balancing issues will work out until you've tried playing the game on the maximum difficulty. If you're on the maximum difficulty and don't have an Expert class, you may be seriously gimped compared to those who are using Expert class options. It depends on how advanced the AI progresses, the speed that the enemies move, the damage they give off, how much HP they have, what special abilities they can use, etc.

Plus, don't forget that changing classes cost money. Those Expert classes are NOT going to be cheap.

[DrewSeleski]

And keep in mind when creating this expert class thing Sonic Team would be sure to make everything balanced. I would expect them to have a good deal better judgement on the matter than you considering they're the ones who know everything about the game. And like I said earlier you are all thinking about how it would be if you mixed classes in PSO and this game is not PSO.
So it will most likely be balanced.

[theShoal]

Guess we'll just have to wait...

[Abaru-FP]

I don't like the idea. The classes were solid on their own, and there are two few combinations possible to add any variety. Seems like a tacked on afterthought.
The only balance issue I would for see is the cheapening of the force class. HU/FO and RA/FO will make a force less essential, which I see as a bad thing.

[chibiLegolas]

On 2006-07-24 00:01, Kers wrote:
In the E3 Interview with Takao Miyoshi he states that he placed balance as the highest importance. Expect every combination to have it's positives, it's negatives, and why they exist.


Thank You!
It's nice to know some ppl remember that fact from the interview, and the reasoning why SUV and nanoblasts exists to balance whatever advantages newmans and humans have (and yet remain to be seen). I honestly can't imagine which dual class/race combo will get gimped. Like someone's said earlier, each combination has a different play style whether you think it's a poor choice or not.

I for one am glad to hear about this new Expert Type advancement at later levels. It really does solve a lot of limitations I was scepticle about.

And yes, my Newman FO/RA or FO/HU can now rejoice.
http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Authenticate]

As long as it doesn't give a HU or RA the power HUnewearls and RAmarls had, I'm all for it. I didn't have a problem with how techs were handled with HUmars and RAmars. They were supliments at best, and still made a Force pretty handy to have arround.

[OdinTyler]

I didn't know there would be expert classes in PSU! This makes for an interesting idea. Without reading a ton of posts about it, I'm going to make yet another prediction. There will probably be advantages (& disadvantages) to staying as one class or choosing to 'master' class. You could be 1 of the best Hunters out there (staying pure) or add some flexibility & add a 2nd class to make yourself more balanced & maybe contribute extra to your team. I'm going to keep an open mind about this & see how the stats play out. With the ability to change your class at almost anytime, it just all comes down what do YOU want to play as?

[hypersaxon]

On 2006-07-24 08:49, Abaru-FP wrote:
I don't like the idea. The classes were solid on their own, and there are two few combinations possible to add any variety. Seems like a tacked on afterthought.
The only balance issue I would for see is the cheapening of the force class. HU/FO and RA/FO will make a force less essential, which I see as a bad thing.




A Force is always going to be essential to any party, regardless of how the Expert class system works. If they just let you be two classes at once, with no penalties, then essentially you're going to technically be a Force anyway. If it's more of a hybrid system where you only get certain advantages from the second class, someone with Force as a main would still be preferred since they'd have higher level spells (i.e. just like in PSO). So I wouldn't worry about Forces becoming useless.

[NightHour13]

I think that i'll be a Hu/Ra Beast so that I can overcome that dexterity drop, and add on some goodies that a force just dont got.

Like everyone's saying, a Force is primary in a party regardless if EVERYONE's got a Fo sub.

[Pure-chan]

I know this is a goofy idea, but what if they let you dual two of the same class? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif Like a HuHu with 4000+ ATP and 16,000 HP -- or a RaRa with 650 ATA and the ability to dual-wield rifles, or shots.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pure-chan on 2006-07-24 11:58 ]</font>

[hypersaxon]

On 2006-07-24 11:57, Pure-chan wrote:
I know this is a goofy idea, but what if they let you dual two of the same class? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif Like a HuHu with 4000+ ATP and 16,000 HP -- or a RaRa with 650 ATA and the ability to dual-wield rifles, or shots.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pure-chan on 2006-07-24 11:58 ]</font>


Then I would be a RAcast with dual NUG-2000s, I'd be unstoppable!!!

[Saner]

LOL! That would be SUPREME OVERKILL!


*shudders at the thought of imagining FO/FOs*


Final Boss: "it's a FoFo!!!! Run for the hills!!!! Releeease teh houndssss!!!"

*nuklear explosion*

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[Lyrise]

On 2006-07-24 02:33, hypersaxon wrote:
But as I said, maybe having an Expert class would allow you to use Saber and Cane at the same time. That definitely would be sweet.


I highly doubt that will ever happen. This is because what dictates what hand you use a certain weapon on, is the weapon itself, not the class you choose. Sabers and wands are always right handed. Handguns always on the left, with staves on both hands.

The only way your suggestion will ever happen is if they develop a left handed saber/wand (very unlikely).

[Saner]

yup yup.

I guess hyper was reading too much about Gandalf and his dual wielding staff + saber skillz. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

"YOU..... SHALL NOT..... dual wield such a combination!" http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Saner on 2006-07-24 14:08 ]</font>

[PrinceRhys]

Since I played/am playing FFXI, this is welcome news. Waiting an hour for "the white mage" to get here so the party can "begin" is annoying. Hopefully with this flexibility, we will also be able to avoid "right" and "wrong" parties (ie warrior for tank, white mage for healing, having damage dealers, and then MAYBE including something unique to the party).

[Kers]

Items we don't know nearly all the weapons that come from item synthesis and also we don't know of one rare weapon yet so, even a saber capable of casting a technique could exist. My point is that we can't rule out weapon types/combinations yet because we don't know all of them.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kers on 2006-07-24 18:24 ]</font>

[hypersaxon]

On 2006-07-24 13:48, Lyrise wrote:


On 2006-07-24 02:33, hypersaxon wrote:
But as I said, maybe having an Expert class would allow you to use Saber and Cane at the same time. That definitely would be sweet.


I highly doubt that will ever happen. This is because what dictates what hand you use a certain weapon on, is the weapon itself, not the class you choose. Sabers and wands are always right handed. Handguns always on the left, with staves on both hands.

The only way your suggestion will ever happen is if they develop a left handed saber/wand (very unlikely).



It's called being optimistic.

And by the way, thanks for reiterating on a bunch of info that I'm already aware of. Yes I know, Sabers and Wands are right handed, Handguns are left handed.

What I'm saying is, maybe if you chose a HU/FO or FO/HU that they'd let you put the Cane in the left hand. Because A.) using a Handgun as a HU/FO would be dumb, and B.) it wouldn't be that hard for Sonic Team to implement. Just plop the weapon in another hand and reverse the casting animation.

The reason that I'm guessing you can't equip a Wand in your left hand normally is because, what the hell use would it do? Your spells would be absolutely worthless unless your were either a full-fledged Force, or dual classing with Force.

Am I saying it WILL happen? No. Am I saying it CAN happen? Sure. It's called being optimistic. The beta is exactly what it is, a beta. Not a representation of a full final product. So when the retail game hits shelves, then we'll all know for certain if there's absolutely no way to dual wield melee and magic weapons, even with dual classes. But until then, I'm going to remain optimistic. Because it's not like Sonic Team can't implement slight alterations to their coding to make it happen.

[Kyuu]

You're missing the point, hypersaxon. Lyrise was explaining to you why we already know it can't happen like that. The beta wasn't really a beta... the game has been nearly completed for a while, and it wasn't a horribly glitched out version taking place long before the actual release. The major elements, such as right-hand weapons being right-hand only and left-hand weapons being left-hand only, are almost certain to stay the same. You're not talking about optimism, you're basically wishing for them to undo part of the game mechanics. It's not a matter of it being difficult to code. That's, again, missing the point.

If you're going to be "optimistic," then looking for them to perhaps have sabres/swords/etc. of a certain type that can equip techs rather than photon arts is slightly more realistic, although I rather doubt that as well. Most likely, if the Expert Class thing even works like we're expecting, you'll have to switch from your hunter weapon to a wand/staff to cast a tech, then switch back to continue meleeing (or shooting, or whatever). And, I see that as a good thing. It's a very simple mechanical problem that limits the power of the HuFo and RaFo combinations, especially as far as being able to heal self-sufficiently during battle (i.e., you really couldn't very well, and certainly nowhere near as effectively as having an actual Force present).

[hypersaxon]

Well your guys' opinions are your own, I shall respect them.

But I stand by my opinion that anything is possible with the power of programming, so I shall continue to remain optimistic http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Kyuu]

How dare you not succumb to my impossibly superior powers of reasoning!

... =P

(j/k)

[hypersaxon]

I'm just saying, people argued about things before about PSU, like "PSU's offline mode is only story mode where you play as Ethan" then Sonic Team announces Extra mode and everyone is happy. Then people argued that the game wouldn't come out for Xbox 360, then it gets announced for 360. The basis for this topic, the ability to dual class, was also argued about and Sonic Team announced that you can in fact dual class.

That's why I remain optimistic, you never know what hidden surprises Sonic Team has in store, and they'll keep leaking them one tidbit at a time http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif
at least it goes to show that Sonic Team does listen to our input.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hypersaxon on 2006-07-24 22:34 ]</font>

[Saner]

'impossibly superior powers of reasoning!"

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif yes! down with the heathens! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[hypersaxon]

I've learned that it's always wise to remain optimistic about things, no matter how far-fetched they seem.

For example, I remember talking to people on the Bungie.net forums before Halo 2 came out, and we were like "What if you could play as an Elite during the Campaign?" and of course people said "No way, they'd never do something as stupid as that!"

Months later, I'm running through levels with Covenant allies as the Arbiter http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Saner]

well as long as people don't get angry if their proposal doesn't make it into the final version, then they haven't set their expectations too high, which is good. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Saner on 2006-07-25 01:40 ]</font>

[hypersaxon]

Yeah, that's true too. That's another thing about being optimistic, you're not saying that what you want to happen "is" going to happen, it "might." Or to put it in another sense, if it doesn't make it to the final game, I can live with it, but it'd be nice if it did make it to the final game.

So if I find out I can't use a Cane and Saber simultaneously, no big deal. At least they give you the option of the Action Palette so you can quick change. Although not as convenient, I can adapt to it.

[Saner]

"Go go gadget Saber!"


ya it'll work out! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[Sinue_v2]

've learned that it's always wise to remain optimistic about things, no matter how far-fetched they seem.

It's better to be pessimistic, that way everything new added is a pleasant and unexpected surprise - rather than being let down by not having something added, or implimented in the way you hoped for.

[hypersaxon]

Awe, but pessimistic stucks http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Saner]

actually pessimistic is unhealthy,

because that's tied to what people expect out of a game, instead of appreciating what it will already have.



unfair early criticisms and doubts lead to disappointments
because the person is so bent on not liking the game that they won't ever realize how great the game really is.

after all, anyone can complain about anything.

[PALRAPPYS]

Yes this may be off-topic of the current chat, but I want to say something. As someone said earlier, being a HuFo wouldn't be as effective in techs as a Fo. So, with those statistics, would it be that you just merely have that class as a bonus, but don't receive that classes bonuses? Hm. Odd thought.

[Saner]

regardless of stat differences, a HU/FO is good because if they run out of healing items, they can resort to using FO weapons that have resta to heal themselves.

someone else might be able to heal them but its always a bonus to take care of oneself in case its an emergency and there's no one around to heal them or FOs are not doing their job.

[Earthsunderer]

Of course, the best way to stay alive is to not be hit at all.

Remember kids, precaution is better than cure. Stay away from those nasty big claws and mean ice-bolts. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Of course, I know this is easier said than done. Hehehe http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Sev]

They're won't be any "bad" combinations. If you do it right, most things will work out. There's a reason that this is being called "Expert" - If you don't know how to play the game of course you're not going to do to well with any combination to begin with. I'd like to see how they work it out in the end, it's probably going to be alot more balanced and alot more enjoyable then most people think. It also opens up alot more possibilities then earlier expected and reasons to play the game even longer then I already planned.

People are just too quick to assume that somethings a bad idea, and that would be fine... If there was some proof aside from "Well PSO was unbalanced!"

Then again, those of you who are going to complain will do it without any regard to reason. I'm looking forward to seeing how this is done, I hope it's even more surprising in the end.

[Magus_84]

I could care less how useful it is. I just want to take dual Handguns and put them on a Force, if only to run around looking cool. <_<

[Nai_Calus]

Saner, you have completely failed to grasp the concept of pessimism.　But that really doesn't surprise me at all. Actually, you have it completely backwards.

Pessimism, in this case, merely presumes that 'Oh, hey, that'd be cool if this was in there, but it probably won't happen. Oh well'. When it does, indeed, fail to happen, you were expecting it, and therefore are not particularily disappointed. If it actually does happen, on the other hand, you're pleasantly surprised as, well, you figured it wouldn't happen, but hey, cool, it did!

Optimism, on the other hand, means assuming that yes, this will indeed be this way, and won't it be great? Except then when it fails to be a certain way, you're disappointed because you were so certain and optimistic it was going to be that way. If it does manage to happen, it's not even very exciting, oh well, you were expecting it anyway.

Hence, with this sort of thing, pessimism is better.

But, again, it really doesn't surprise me in the least that you wouldn't understand...

[Chiba-kun]

Hey now....lets not let this move into the personal insults realm, thats really not neccasary, please just stick to the point of the thread people.

[tank1]

RA/HU FTW! there now where back on track ^_^

[Saner]

On 2006-07-27 04:48, Ian-KunX wrote:


Optimism, on the other hand, means assuming that yes, this will indeed be this way, and won't it be great? Except then when it fails to be a certain way, you're disappointed because you were so certain and optimistic it was going to be that way.




that is not how I see Optimism.

Optimism does not assume anything. It accepts what's there and if there's anything more, that is even better.

Pessimistic people end up being disppointed than Optimistic people. and judge things before they even get the game.

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/oj.gif

of course there is such thing as being over-optimistic, but lessons before have taught to not expect anything. Simply appreciate what the game has instead of expecting things it doesn't have.

[Cruisectrl]

ive said that at least 15 times in different topics... no one listens to me

[Jife_Jifremok]

On 2006-07-27 14:09, Saner wrote:
...
Optimism does not assume anything. It accepts what's there and if there's anything more, that is even better.
...

of course there is such thing as being over-optimistic, but lessons before have taught to not expect anything. Simply appreciate what the game has instead of expecting things it doesn't have.


You sure that isn't neutrality you speak of there?

[Saner]

well more like Cautious Optimism. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Jife_Jifremok]

That...makes sense. But then what is cautious pessimism?

[Chiba-kun]

Ok people...this thread isnt called pessimism or optimism....

[hypersaxon]

Okay, let's try and stay on topic http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif anyway, what's everybody's plans for their characters now that Expert class is confirmed?

For my main character, I'm probably going HU/RA and using a Saber along with a Mechgun. I'll have a nice combination of attack power and accuracy, and I'll be able to stick it to my foes from far away with elemental bullets, then when they get inflicted I'll rush in and hammer away with some Saber combos and skills.

[Chiba-kun]

Ill most likely go with a HU/FO newman. Im figuring if things go as i hope, ill be able to get my char nice and tough to overcome the newmans physically lackingness, than move to force and take avantage of the natural affinity to it.

[Saner]

HU/FO. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/cone.gif

it has everything a Hunter can master, as well as techniques for added survival insurance. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[EnixBelmont]

I'll have a HU/RA cast for sure.....And depending on how good it is, a HU/FO beast.

[SolRiver]

Too early to say.

It is possible that different combination will have a different ability evolution tree.

Different photon art, SUV weapon, Nano-Blast, Armors, Units, etc.

[Shiro_Ryuu]

probably HU/FO human, slash things up and if a FO isn't available, I'll heal and shifta/deband.

[Saner]

Wow a Cast HU/FO. that would be really something. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

blade photon arts master, SUV user, technique support. wow! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[_EiN_]

HU/RA

[hiraisho]

Well also think of it this way. when you put on a 2nd class could this affect your stats? for example your a hunter and you put force as a second. Maybe you Magic strenth will raise more with this combo but you attack could suffer because Forces are not built for melee. just my 2 cents

[Carlo210]

Yeah, that's what we've said.

[Saner]

I doubt that will happen, especially if you are required to choose a 2nd class to link with.

like HU/FO's strengths are based on their race. their HU side would not get a decrease for being linked with FO.

understand that Race stats will not be altered even with one Class equipped.

so even with Dual Class, there will be no rise or fall in stats, character stats are still solely dependant on their race and level.

as for class effeciency, that depends on their ranks for each type of weapon they use. as well as their race stats in comparison with what stats the classes use to determine how effective they are at something.

[Kers]

On 2006-07-29 13:36, Saner wrote:
[b]understand that Race stats will not be altered even with one Class equipped.



So, how does a human Hunter, for example, have higher physical stats then the human Force?

[Saner]

huh? there is a difference?

oh right, well....in that case..... hmm with Dual Class, I guess the stat adjustments would be balanced another way.

because remember the term "Dual Class" the equipped classes reduce stats not used by those classes. or something like that.

cause of course they simply can't prioritize on class over another.

UNLESS the 2nd class is treated more like a subjob, then we would know which class would get a stats decrease. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

but I would think a HU/FO expert would not have changes in stats like a Hunter switching to Force would.

[hypersaxon]

We won't really know how Expert class works as far as stats go, or as far as weapon selection and skills go, until someone's actually done it or seen it done. Obviously though, if you select HU/FO, you're not going to have the same stats as a plain Hunter. Having Force in there will have some sort of effect on your stats, because with extra power comes extra penalties. If you want to cast as a Hunter, you're gonna have to take some hits, so you most likely won't have as much HP as a pure Hunter, and probably less ATP. Same thing if you go FO/HU, being able to be a competent melee character would mean a drop in MST and TAP.

With this line of thinking, it could be said that it may be more viable for some to remain a normal class. But for some races, you can make up for weaknesses, and even build on your strengths, with Expert class. Beast Hunters have really bad ATA, so if someone wanted their Beast to hit more, they could choose HU/RA. Of course, some of their other stats would take a hit from it, like their ATP most likely, but of course that's all up to the player to determine if the loss in ATP is worth gaining ATA for.

Sort of the same thing with Newman Hunters, except Hunter is their main weakness, so they could pick a class that they excell in (Force) to combine with. Some of their important Hunter stats would go down, but they'd be able to take advantage of their higher MST and TAP to make up for that.

Some people, however, would rather just stick with the single class their race excels in and take the increase in stats that they need the most and deal with their deficiencies. A Newman Force, for example, would probably do a lot better without another class tacked on that would decrease their MST and TAP by a large margin, although in the case of adding HU as a subclass, it would provide them with more HP and DFP which would make them more durable at the cost of their magic stats. But like I said, that's a choice that's up to the user, and it makes the game so much deeper than just "Okay I'm gonna be a Hunter, Ranger, or Force." Now it's like "Okay, I could be a pure Hunter and have higher attack power, or I could sacrifice it for more ATA or the ability to use magic." It's not always a win situation with Expert class options, but of course that's up to you and how you view the situation.

[MilkRocker]

Makes you wonder how hard the higher level enemies will be, though. Folks are saying that this will make overpowered characters, but what if gaining expert class actually makes you functional in the late game.

[Sev]

On 2006-07-29 15:41, MilkRocker wrote:
Makes you wonder how hard the higher level enemies will be, though. Folks are saying that this will make overpowered characters, but what if gaining expert class actually makes you functional in the late game.



Well, it's always "Safer" to assume the worst so that's what most people do. Your most likely closer to the truth, because people already mentioned that the game isn't exactly a cakewalk... You don't think it'll just get randomly easier right? There should be some challenge to things, and this is where having Expert Class will probably help.

I personally do hope you get more options and it's not just adding Force or Ranger to your Hunter. I'd hope there's more variety then just that. Guess we'll have to see though.

[Skuda]

I don't know if this has been brought up, but why not have HU/HU or RA/RA or FO/FO.

Just beef them up a heck of a lot more, instead of having the extra variety of weapons.

[Roffkaiser]

Skuda....what is the point of the expert class if you don't cross class? It doesn't allow you to "beef" yourself up in the same class at least i don't think it does, though it would be pretty wierd if it did, so maybe someone should look into it.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Roffkaiser on 2006-07-30 00:16 ]</font>

[Saner]

On 2006-07-29 18:54, Skuda wrote:
I don't know if this has been brought up, but why not have HU/HU or RA/RA or FO/FO.



now that is silly. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif


the dual class is better with 2 different classes because that expands your skills beyond just melee, or just ranged, or just techniques.

That's what makes a HU/FO more unique and useful than a normal HU or a normal FO.


and this leads to more interesting types of Guardians:

Hunter
Ranger
Force
HU/FO
HU/RA
FO/RA
and possibly

RA/FO
FO/HU
RA/HU

(if there is a difference in which class is 'first')



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Saner on 2006-07-29 19:36 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Saner on 2006-07-29 19:39 ]</font>

[Kyuu]

On 2006-07-29 19:17, Roffkaiser wrote:
Skuda....what is the point of cross-classing if you don't cross class? It doesn't allow you to "beef" yourself up in the same class at least i don't think it does, though it would be pretty wierd if it did, so maybe someone should look into it.

This argument has taken a turn where people are arguing who don't seem to have read the article that started the debate, and also seem to have skipped many of the posts in the previous pages of the topic. The particular quote from the article where the "Expert Class" was revealed did not say Expert Classing was about cross-classing. Miyoshi-san said that the Expert Class feature would allow you to cross-class, but it was strongly implied that that's not the only direction you can take when you Expert Class. It's quite possible that, if you decide to cross-class, you'll be missing out on more advanced abilies of your first class, and that's the sacrifice you'll be making.

Really, my only point is that arguing that going all-out HU or RA or FO (or HU/HU, RA/RA, FO/FO as it was put) is silly, is a tad ignorant, because Expert Classing was not put forward as being solely about cross-classing. That's merely the false assumption that seems to have been made since that's what most of the debate has been about.

Edit: Oh, and don't take it personally because I quoted you. I would've quoted Saner, but I'd feel like I'm spamming since she spaces her posts out so unnecessarily.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kyuu on 2006-07-30 00:57 ]</font>

[Saner]

my spaces are civilized spacing! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

well at least that's what that English teacher taught back in the day. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

[Kers]

Good post Kyuu. sums up the original topic. I for example, don't plan on dual-classing but will benifit from my party members doing so.

[Roffkaiser]

Well I was getting at what most of you are getting at with the whole "Why wouldn't you cross class", I just happened to put cross class twice, i will edit for the error. Though the whole expert class thing has become much more complex looking at it from the angle you have shown me, so I may have to put more thought into my plans.

[hypersaxon]

On 2006-07-29 18:54, Skuda wrote:
I don't know if this has been brought up, but why not have HU/HU or RA/RA or FO/FO.

Just beef them up a heck of a lot more, instead of having the extra variety of weapons.



They already have classes like that. They're called "Hunter" "Ranger" and "Force."

And the best part is, they're all unlocked at the start of the game http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Zarbolord]

No no, I see what he meant. It might change the stats you gain, if you have the double job of a hunter instead of a single, it might also affect the weapons you can wield, armors, object effects, etc... You never know. Anyway I was expecting the expert class to come up, all my character will be FOrces, at least as one job. FO/RA, FO/FO, HU/FO, RA/FO. That's waht I've decided. Also maybe a class mix might eventually lead to a new class selection, like so:
Imagine that you're a FOrce only, you can wield a bow right? But what if you needed to be a RA/FO to wield the cross bow? There are so many possibilities on restriction wuth the dual class. And some weapons, as I've mentioned before, can only be weilded by pure HU/HU or FO/FO or RA/RA. I think that's what will eventually come up from this.

[hypersaxon]

Why would they give you the option to have "double" the stats of a class? That would make a Level 50 character as powerful as a Level 100 character, and that would make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Talk about imbalance lol

If you want to be a more powerful Hunter, then keep leveling up Hunter. They're not going to make a HU/HU and all of a sudden allow players to double all of their Hunter stats, it's just stupid. It's like, "Wow! I can make my character twice as powerful by paying money!" Do you realize just how overpowered that character would be if you could choose HU/HU?! Compare a HU/HU to a HU/RA or HU/FO and you realize the whole HU/HU idea just ain't gonna work.

[Velocity_7]

Casts are useless in dual-classing? They can still use Force techs. They did back during the beta too.

[Carlo210]

They're horrible at techs. Do we gotta underline it?
They're horrible at techs

Now can you see it?

I don't care about the cast business, but I don't know why some people don't understand that a castdual-classing as a force is stupid.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2006-07-30 09:40 ]</font>

[Parn]

What's stupid about it? My cast force could kill monsters faster than my human hunter. Where is this perception that casts suck at techs coming from?

[Numnuttz]

well cast doing techs would be semi good. this way they would be able to cast resta/deband/shifta on themselves if they were to go solo.

[Carlo210]

Because casts have MUCH less MST than every other force. Newman forces are way more proficient with techs due to their high MST.

But, parn, I do trust your information ebcause I know you played the beta (and I've watched your videos too). I jsut can't see how a Cast force, with around half as much magic power as a newman, is a viable force. I mean, You start with around 30 mst (dictates the strength of your magic attacks etc), while a newman force starts with 70mst.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Carlo210 on 2006-07-30 10:57 ]</font>

[Parn]

A newman force will outdamage a cast force any day of the week, sure... but I watched the dragon one-shot newman forces twice during my beta gameplay. Meanwhile, a cast would have survived.

And even then, a cast force still does great damage. My level 3 cast force was doing 50-60 damage with level 1 foie as a fairly new character... my level 10 human hunter with the latest dagger was doing 50-60 damage per melee hit. Granted, melee combat moves faster, but that's also a 7 level difference, and melee are in constant harm's way.

Just some food for thought.

[Saner]

ya! Cast Forces are not as bad as people think! It's not like their techniques will only have 1 or 2 points of effect. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

they may have the lowest Technique potential but their techniques still have a decent amount of power in them.

and combinations like a Cast Hunter Force will be much better than people realize!

[_EiN_]

it could be something like KNIGHTS OF THE OLD REPUBLIC. in which case skuda could have stumbled on to the truth of expert class...kind of. for those who havent played kotor you could be a basic gauridian who is basic strength is melee then later on in the game you could become a weapon master (strounger melee), jedi master (basically force), or maurder (balance).
while still retaining the basic skills of melee and advance skills of the more advanced class. could this be something like this?

edited several times for some disgusting typos.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: _EiN_ on 2006-07-30 11:41 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: _EiN_ on 2006-07-30 11:42 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: _EiN_ on 2006-07-30 11:44 ]</font>

[DrewSeleski]

Well there is one thing expert class is sure to do, confuse us like nothing else http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[_EiN_]

on second thoght nvm. i dont think that would work. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif skills are just added to weapons, huh. oh well just a thought.

[DizzyDi]

Expert Class probably works like sub-jobs do in FFXI.

You sub job is half the level of your main. So you get all the stats of stuff of your main, but only half the benefits of your sub.

So if you're a 20 hunter and you sub force then its level 10. And you'll only get to hit level 5 technics or whatever.

Subbing FO on a cast is pretty stupid, seeing as how they have the lowest MST. Being a HU/RA or RA/HU as a cast you'd get the most out of your stats. High Def, OK HP, High ACC, OK Attack. You'd destroy as a cast HU/RA or vice versa, same thing goes for Beast. Humans and Newmans on the other hand are better off subbing FO.

[Saner]

Subbing FO on a cast is pretty stupid, seeing as how they have the lowest MST. Being a HU/RA or RA/HU as a cast you'd get the most out of your stats. High Def, OK HP, High ACC, OK Attack. You'd destroy as a cast HU/RA or vice versa, same thing goes for Beast. Humans and Newmans on the other hand are better off subbing FO.



not everyone are 'power players' who try to exploit the best combination to be the absolute best at what they can be. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

a Cast HU/FO would do just fine, even if FO as a sub is halved.

*a HU/FO might very well be related to a tank. (but since there are no such thing as split "warriors" and "dark knights", Hunters as a whole are the top melee masters regardless of their sub in this game.
so they would be like a damage dealing tank. great damage, great defenses and great support techs for added survival).

*while a HU/RA would be related to DDs (master damage dealers.

then again, FO/RA might end up being true master damage dealers since techs may do more damage than anything else. and with some ranged mastery, they would be a force to be reckoned with. ).

there's no wrong way to develop your character. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Saner on 2006-07-30 12:19 ]</font>

[DizzyDi]

True that Saner.
This is just my outtake on things from playing too much FFXI.
Subbing FO as a hunter is all well and dandy but it only looks REALLY usefull to me when you're soloing OR there isn't a FO present., otherwise its just stupid.
Take into account that most of the time you're gunna be partying with other peoples. FOs are gunna do much more damage than you with thier nukes, and hunters that sub RA will be hitting more than you, and if they dual-wield with a pistole or mechgun they'll be hitting more AND more often with thier bullet effects. Whereas you'll be casting ho-hum buffs/debuffs/nukes. Not only that but you won't even have a hunter weapon equipped while you're doing these because you'd need a cane/wand, things so you're pretty much useless.

Now RA/FO on the other hand looks like a great combo if you dual-wield wand/pistol or mechgun. You might be casting ho-hum spells but you'll still be able to use a ranger weapon and if you up your pistol bullet-arts enough you're good to go. FO/RA works the same way.

But hey...Whatever wets your whistles peoples.

[Roffkaiser]

Considering that you can switch your job from RA to HU to FO you could very well have your HU and FO levels the same when you finally become an expert so it wouldn't make much sense for your FO job level to all the sudden be cut in half as it is a "sub job" or vice-versa. I highly doubt this "Sub job" will exist.

EDIT: if i made a mistake again by not being 100% sure of how all this works then sorry in advance, haven't played the beta or read every single article http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Roffkaiser on 2006-07-30 12:49 ]</font>

[DizzyDi]

Sub-job is just the term I use for you other class when you finally expert. Like I said it works the same way in FFXI. If you're a 20Warrior and you expert or subjob a 20Ninja your Ninja as a sub-job/expert class will be cut in half to 10. Its for balance purposes. You just shouldn't be able to get the full benefits from your 2nd job, that right there would make other classes pretty useless as a HU/FO would just be able to solo everything.

[Saner]

you can switch weapons almost instantly.

so using blades and using techs is no trouble switching between them right away. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

also a HU/FO wouldn't be for main buffing and debuffing purposes, Resta is enough to make a HU/FO outlast a HU/RA in the area of "damage intake".

so survival wise, a HU/FO can outlast a HU/RA since HU/RAs can only depend on consumable items for healing. while HU/FOs have that as well as healing techniques.


*also you are unrating the power of Cast techniques will have. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_ketchup.gif

Shifta and Deband would not last for 5 seconds when used by Cast.
Resta would not only heal 2 pts. of HP.


Sonic Team would not let Casts use techniques as an option if their techniques were completely useless and underpowered.

it's the same for Newmans being the least effective as Hunters, but still doing significant damage.

[PrinceRhys]

On 2006-07-30 05:45, hypersaxon wrote:
Why would they give you the option to have "double" the stats of a class? That would make a Level 50 character as powerful as a Level 100 character, and that would make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Talk about imbalance lol

If you want to be a more powerful Hunter, then keep leveling up Hunter. They're not going to make a HU/HU and all of a sudden allow players to double all of their Hunter stats, it's just stupid. It's like, "Wow! I can make my character twice as powerful by paying money!" Do you realize just how overpowered that character would be if you could choose HU/HU?! Compare a HU/HU to a HU/RA or HU/FO and you realize the whole HU/HU idea just ain't gonna work.



If they were going to have HU/HU, RA/RA, or FO/FO, I don't think it would be 2*HU or HU*HU. I think of it more as a person concentrating on HU, RA, or FO respectively. So, a HU/HU's hunter abilities would be above a HU/FO's (higher ATP, etc).

Maybe like others were saying, these higher levels of Hunter, Ranger, or Force would allow access to higher level weapons in those fields. For instance, Hunters may need to be "Expert Hunters" (HU/HU) to wield axes (Correct me if I'm wrong about axes not being available in the beta).

[Roffkaiser]

Well what I am saying is you don't necessarily have a main job. So the people that are level 50 HU of course would be much more specialized than a level 25RA/25FO that right there is balance in that you have to split your time and experiance between the two. So when you do get to expert I don't think you should have one of your classes cut in half.

[DizzyDi]

On 2006-07-30 12:59, Saner wrote:
you can switch weapons almost instantly.

so using blades and using techs is no trouble switching between them right away. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

also a HU/FO wouldn't be for main buffing and debuffing purposes, Resta is enough to make a HU/FO outlast a HU/RA in the area of "damage intake".

so survival wise, a HU/FO can outlast a HU/RA since HU/RAs can only depend on consumable items for healing. while HU/FOs have that as well as healing techniques.


*also you are unrating the power of Cast techniques will have. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_ketchup.gif

Shifta and Deband would not last for 5 seconds when used by Cast.
Resta would not only heal 2 pts. of HP.


Sonic Team would not let Casts use techniques as an option if their techniques were completely useless and underpowered.

it's the same for Newmans being the least effective as Hunters, but still doing significant damage.



You have a small point there. BUT ST would let Cast use techniques, even if it is useless. If someone wants to make a bad choice as far as thier character goes, why not let them?

Also there is a small delay between switching weapons AND spells on canes/wands have to "set" or whatever the term is to the FO weapon before you can use them. So when you do whip out your wand there will be a small window of time when you won't be able to cast spells because the they have to "set" to the wand. I'm sure one of the beta-testers can explain better than I can, I just read this on one of the topics here.

[DizzyDi]

On 2006-07-30 13:01, Roffkaiser wrote:
Well what I am saying is you don't necessarily have a main job. So the people that are level 50 HU of course would be much more specialized than a level 25RA/25FO that right there is balance in that you have to split your time and experiance between the two. So when you do get to expert I don't think you should have one of your classes cut in half.



You may be onto something there Roff. Maybe, maybe not.

[Saner]

Also there is a small delay between switching weapons AND spells on canes/wands have to "set" or whatever the term is to the FO weapon before you can use them. So when you do whip out your wand there will be a small window of time when you won't be able to cast spells because the they have to "set" to the wand.



even so, you can still obviously move out of harms way until the weapon is finally ready for use. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[Saner]

Maybe like others were saying, these higher levels of Hunter, Ranger, or Force would allow access to higher level weapons in those fields. For instance, Hunters may need to be "Expert Hunters" (HU/HU) to wield axes (Correct me if I'm wrong about axes not being available in the beta).



aaah that would be insane. I would rather have all types of weapons available for purchase and use at the start. each type having it's own selection of weapons and level requirements,
but ALL types of weapons should have versions of themselves from lv.1 all the way to the max. that way people can "CAREER" with any weapons they like from the very start.

but if they wanna use stronger versions of those weapons, of course they have to level and skill up. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

because lets say axe wielders wanna use axes, they can't until after countless hours they reach the point of being able to become your HU/HU idea, which would be kind of unfair.


if there are single class mastery options aside from Dual Class, then the reward shouldn't be more weapon options, it should just simply be greater affinity towards using blades. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Saner on 2006-07-30 13:20 ]</font>

[DoctorShasta]

I'm comfortable with either having more affinity toward weapons or just being able to use different weapons altogether if you are a HU/HU or etc.

[hypersaxon]

It just makes zero sense to add a HU/HU or RA/RA or FO/FO class to the game. Why would they make you pick another class, which is essentially the exact same as the starting class, to equip something like an Axe? It would be stupid. If you want to equip better weapons and have better stats as a Hunter, you just LEVEL UP HUNTER. Same thing with Ranger and Force.

[Kers]

It's not complicated, frustrating, or even stupid because it shows that there are more options available.
HU/HU, RA/RA, and FO/FO is just the technical way to show the same class as the Hunter, Ranger, and Force at the Expert level, I suppose. I don't really care which way it's stated.

[hypersaxon]

On 2006-07-30 22:35, Kers wrote:
It's not complicated, frustrating, or even stupid because it shows that there are more options available.
HU/HU, RA/RA, and FO/FO is just the technical way to show the same class as the Hunter, Ranger, and Force at the Expert level, I suppose. I don't really care which way it's stated.



Yes it is stupid. Requiring people to pay money in order to use all of the weapons in the class that they're already in, except for a different name, is a dumb idea.

I'm not arguing over this anymore, because it's just not happening. I've seen Sonic Team do some pretty retarded things with their games (like making people drop their weapons and money on the ground when they die) but I doubt they would think this is at all a good idea.

[Saner]

a PSUHU/FO is 'basically' a PSO Human/Newman Hunter.

so there's really no need for something like HU/HU in order to 'feel' like a pure Hunter.

[Kyuu]

On 2006-07-30 22:51, hypersaxon wrote:

Yes it is stupid. Requiring people to pay money in order to use all of the weapons in the class that they're already in, except for a different name, is a dumb idea.

I'm not arguing over this anymore, because it's just not happening. I've seen Sonic Team do some pretty retarded things with their games (like making people drop their weapons and money on the ground when they die) but I doubt they would think this is at all a good idea.

Who said you have to pay money for the Expert Class function? And even if you do, so what? Obviously, any weapons that are only usable by an Expert Hunter (from now on I think I'll call the HU/HU idea "Expert Hunter," and RA/RAs "Expert Rangers," and so on, because that just seems more natural to me) are obviously not things that can be used by a normal Hunter, and so therefore you are paying for the ability to use weapons only the Expert class has access to. That's of course assuming there are such things as Expert Hunters in addition to going HuRa etc., which we don't know and is pure speculation. I believe the Expert Hunter/Ranger/Force is a good possibility judging by the quote from the interview, because I got the strong implication that multi-classing was only one way that the Expert Class feature can take you. I could very well be wrong, however.

Further, if you'd like actually state some reasons why a system where Expert Hunters could use weapons that normal Hunters could not is stupid, that'd be nice. Simple statements such as "that's stupid" with no justification really make you seem rather foolish. I don't mean to offend you personally, but it's usually good form to offer justifications for your opinion.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kyuu on 2006-07-30 23:38 ]</font>

[Saner]

well that would be awful if I have to wait until Expert Class/Dual Class to be able to use double claws. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

all weapon types within a class should be available to all levels based on the quality and power of the weapon. so like for example. there would be level 1-100 Axes, level 1-100 swords, level 1-100 claws, level 1-100 double claws, etc. etc. for every single weapon category.

in this way, people have the option to career as any weapon type they want by simply buying the latest version of that type that is no greater than their current experience level. so I think this would work best for weapon type accessibility. and would provide more options and choices to the player what they wanna use. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[hypersaxon]

1. Yes you have to pay money to change your class. It was confirmed on this website a long time ago.

2. I gave you reasons why the idea is stupid. Because when you become a Hunter, you should have access to all weapons that Hunters can use without having to change to "another" class. And because you have to pay to change your class, I would essentially be paying to use weapons that I should already be able to use.

[Carlo210]

I don't get it. If you're a hunter, why do you gotta 'pay' to use hunter items?

[Kyuu]

On 2006-07-30 23:48, hypersaxon wrote:
1. Yes you have to pay money to change your class. It was confirmed on this website a long time ago.

2. I gave you reasons why the idea is stupid. Because when you become a Hunter, you should have access to all weapons that Hunters can use without having to change to "another" class. And because you have to pay to change your class, I would essentially be paying to use weapons that I should already be able to use.

1) You're confusing two different concepts here. Changing your class from Hunter to Force, for example, costs money, yes. However, Expert Classing is a seperate feature, and there's no indication that you have to "change" from your class to the Expert Class. More likely, it is something added to your class. It's certainly possible that it will require a monetary expenditure, but it is also certainly not confirmed, seeing as how the only thing we've heard about it is a few sentences from a single interview in Play magazine.

2) What you're basically saying is that you should be able to use any weapon you want at all times, otherwise, for example, hunters have to pay to use wands/staves because they have to switch jobs to Force in order to use them. If Sonic Team has decided that certain weapons are only available to Expert Hunters, then isn't that their decision? Hunters aren't "meant" to be able to use any weapon except those the designers of the game decide they can use. Frankly, your argument simply doesn't make sense. I very heavily doubt that Expert Classing will work like that anyways, so *shrug*. I still fail to see why Hunters should have access to certain weapons just because you say so, though.

[Saner]

maybe people are overreacting.


like I think a HU/FO can use all hunter weapons and force weapons.

it makes sense. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif because a 'dual class' would be a mastery of both classes. ^_^ not 50% of each class. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

[Kyuu]

On 2006-07-30 23:53, Carlo210 wrote:
I don't get it. If you're a hunter, why do you gotta 'pay' to use hunter items?

What's a "hunter item?" Whatever Sonic Team decides is a "hunter item."

[Zarbolord]

Why would they give you the option to have "double" the stats of a class?
Who talked about doubling stats? I said that it might affect what you gain versus a dual class or single class (e.g. a simple HU/* would gain EVP + ATP and whatever else, a HU/HU would gain more ATP and less of the others, which changes your technique and strategies. You made the doubling bit up). Paying to change your class is probably due to the fact that some people could change it whenever they feel like it, as in an hour after the first change. They could make the cost be reduced with time until it is free, which wouldn't be a bad idea. Also, I wonder how it works for expert?

[Tuxedose]

I think that its to early to say anything about expert class until the game is released. I mean ok we know that you are going to be able to combine classes with eachother but we have no ide at all how this is going to work or when you can do it or even how you do it so. I think its a good thing to be able to dual class thou but thats all I can ever say about it until I know more.

[Nisshoku]

Right now, there's big talks on this 'Expert Class', when nothing is pratically known about it.

Personally, I'm not going to worry about all of this until I finally play the game. But then again, that's my perrogitive. Anyhow, carry on.

[DoctorShasta]

Yea I agree with niss and tux we don't know much we'll just have to see how it all ends up I think it will add some extra spice to the game however I'm a little worried that it might turn out to be everyone is a force as a side class

[DizzyDi]

Well I know I'm probably going either all HU or HU/RA with my Beast.

And even if we don't know anything. Its fun to speculate until the game does come out. What else are we to do to pass the time?

[Sev]

On 2006-07-22 15:37, AzureBlaze wrote:

EXPERT LEVEL
There was an "expert level" of some sort mentioned on here where you could master TWO things. Such as HUing and FOing. The asker was like "I'll be devastated if I can't help my team with a bit o' the FO stuff and be a HU at the same time like I was on PSO" So his answer to that was to reveal that you can indeed develope into some kind of HUFO or RAHU or w/e once you're good enough. I know lots of people will find this to be excellent news.




Ok... Time for corrections.

Number one, what was said was not Expert CLASS. It's Expert LEVEL.

Number two, nowhere is it said that you will be a HU, RA, or FO/ANYTHING. It's said that you can develope into something that is like a Hunter and a Force, or a Ranger and a Hunter. It's never once stated though, that you would essentially be HU, RA, or FO/ANYTHING at all.

This is a flexible statement. An Expert Hunter would obviously be stronger then a Hybrid BattleMage type in close combat. What he would lack for in survivability, he would make up for in other points. That would be the same with an Expert Ranger and an Expert Force. You would simply be excelling at your feild, rather then adding something to what you already are. We don't know what kind of restrictions will be in place at the beginning, we'll find that out as time goes on. However, I don't think that you could look at being an Expert Hunter, Force, or Ranger type as stupid or pointless. It simply makes sense.

[DoctorShasta]

I'm definetly just being pure ranger because in my opinion when you try and have two classes and try and balance them it just ends up making both of them suck, but thats my experience with games, except Final Fantasy Tactics http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Sev]

On 2006-08-01 20:05, DoctorShasta wrote:
I'm definetly just being pure ranger because in my opinion when you try and have two classes and try and balance them it just ends up making both of them suck, but thats my experience with games, except Final Fantasy Tactics http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif



Because Tactics was the shit.

I'm sure everything balances out, I just don't think it's as cut and dry as FO/HU in the end. I think it's something with more depth, and more choices then people think. That's just me though, even if it isn't, if they give you the oppurtunity to be FO/HU then they should give you the choice to go FO+.

[Kyuu]

On 2006-08-01 20:16, Sev wrote:

Because Tactics was the shit.

I'm sure everything balances out, I just don't think it's as cut and dry as FO/HU in the end. I think it's something with more depth, and more choices then people think. That's just me though, even if it isn't, if they give you the oppurtunity to be FO/HU then they should give you the choice to go FO+.

Dead on assessment, in my opinion. And yeah, now that you mention it, it was Expert Level, not Class.

[PandaMasterX4]

This sounds similar, but not quite like FFXI's subjob. It sounds like people will be getting some, not all benefits from a second class.

Not sure how many here played FFXI, but the subjob pretty much worked as, you can have a second job to your main job pretty much equipped to you at all times, but it'll only be half of the level of your main job. So say you had 2 jobs at 75, blackmage and whitemage. If you mained black and subbed white, then you'll be 75blm/37whm.

Like I said, it sounds similar that you'll get some attributes, kinks, and benefits to having the second class connected, but it won't be a full on thing. It seems like some accessories and weapons can be used to boost your main class in expert level.

[Roffkaiser]

I would guess that whatever you put into the two levels would be what you can use, like say you have a 50RA and 50FO you would get to use all the abilities you could use normally as each of those independently. The balance comes from the fact that you could be level 100 RA for that much and very well it could lock out HU for you which would seem to me to make sense with the whole term of expert usually you become more focused.

[DoctorShasta]

Yea those system ideas sound more like what it would be, at least I hope so.