PDA

View Full Version : Character Balance



Phaze37
Aug 8, 2006, 09:15 PM
I'm really concerned about character balance in this game. I haven't heard anything from anyone or anywhere that adequately explains how the classes are or could be balanced. Looking at the Level 1 statistics guide on this site, Casts clearly make a much better ranger than a human at level 1. RAcasts/caseals beat RAmars/marls in every statistic except for Technique Attack Power, Mental Strength, and Evasion. The techniques section of this site says that techniques can only be used by forces, so what use does a RAmar have for his higher Mental Strength and Technique Attack Power? Are these stats completely useless until the RAmar changes class and becomes a FOmar? Does this mean that a RAmar will always be inferior to a RAcast since the RAmar is sacrificing HP, Attack Power, Attack Accuracy, Defense and Endurance for stats that he can't use even if he wants to, or will a RAmar's useful stats level up enough later on to be comparable with those of a RAcast at the same level? If RAmars are going to be balanced with RAcasts, their stats have to be balanced even when we completely ignore their Technique Attack Power and Mental Strength, otherwise RAmars will be sacrificing useful ranger stats for literally useless force stats. On top of that the RAmar's stats should be slightly better to make up for the fact that he lacks SUVs. At least in PSO RAmars had basic techniques with which to use his MST.

So far it looks like the characters will not be balanced, but I really hope this isn't the case. I want to be a RAmar but I don't want to be inferior to RAcasts. I don't want to sacrifice character quality just to have a normal looking human character. I don't want HUbeasts, RAcast/caseals, and Fonewm/newearls to be the best classes in the game while other combinations are all 2nd tier or worse.

Arrow203
Aug 8, 2006, 09:57 PM
Well you gotta think alot further in the game than just lvl 1, later on there will be stat boosting gear, also as you gain more levels it will all start to level itself out, plus not to mention the "Expert Type" deal going on for the Increased Mental stat on humans, so if you wanted to "sub" FO then boom there ya go

Kyuu
Aug 8, 2006, 10:08 PM
This has been gone over a few times already, and nothing new has been revealed that might affect it except the Expert Type system, allowing a RAmar or RAnewm to sub-class FO, in whatever way that's implemented.

Really, the only thing we can do is hope that ST knows what they're doing, and wait and see how the game turns out when it's released.

MilkRocker
Aug 8, 2006, 10:10 PM
He makes a good point, though. We don't know enough to make a solid judgment in the positive (ie. characters are balanced), so Phaze is on point. Even with stat boosting gear, supposed insufficient races will still be out-done by sufficient races because the sufficient races can use the same shit.

It will all rely on what exactly Expert Type does for your character. Seems to me, based purely on speculation, that Expert Type will bring us closer to what PSO's classes had, just a little more abstract and take a little more work to attain. Besides, in PSO, certain level 1 classes had obvious advantages over others. Looking at FOnewearls vs. FOmarls makes it easy to see: starting off with low level techs and an inherent boost seems like a fantastic advantage, while boosted support techniques is rather lousy because it will take you ten or twenty levels to even see useful support techs.

So. In the spirit of speculation, we shall see.

Axios-
Aug 8, 2006, 10:23 PM
The inclusion of Expert Type is at least a step in the right direction because it gives all of those 'second tier' classes a real reason to exist. Whether it alone can balance everything or not is speculation though. Miyoshi did speak of how important balance was to him, and, with that said, I feel I can rest well under the notion that the balance in PSU couldn't be any worse than in PSO (which I liked). Furthermore, level 1 stats aren't an incredibly solid foundation. A level 1 force was obscenely powerful in PSO (and such seems to be the case with PSU as well), but I was satisfied with how the balance worked out.

Arrow203
Aug 8, 2006, 10:36 PM
Kyuu first of all, i dont care if its posted and pops up infront of peoples faces about every interview and what not, people will still ask questions, no reason for you to continue to say weather or not this has gone over many many times already, let people ask questions and let people give out opinions on what they may think the interview ment, that's whats going to draw people into psu to begin with, Except for those members who have played the entire ps series and are dedicated fans. Just let them ask dude.

Inazuma
Aug 8, 2006, 10:51 PM
ppl need to understand that all the chars cannot be perfectly balanced. if you compare the ramar and the racast, one will always be better than the other.

the only way to have perfectly balanced chars is for all chars to be 100% identical in every way.

we all have the choice to pick any char we want. strong, weak, somewhere in the middle. pick what you prefer and be happy.

PhotonCat
Aug 8, 2006, 11:34 PM
In the end, all races will not be balanced out. Certain races will be far better(stat-wise) at a certain class than others. Not to mention Beasts and Casts are the only races that get a "special attack", so they will have a slight edge over others as well.

I actually like it like this because it makes you feel the difference between race/class combos. I really hate it when(in other games, notebly WoW) they balance everyone so it feels "cookie-cutterish".
If I play as a hulking metal Cast Hunter I should of course be way stronger than a small skinny Newman Hunter.

But that shouldn't be a reason to prevent you from choosing what you want. If you want to be a FOcast or HUnewman there is nothing stopping you.

In the end, skill is what over comes stats.

Arrow203
Aug 8, 2006, 11:37 PM
Yes, an old saying we had in FFXI... Friends > Skill > Gear

Phaze37
Aug 8, 2006, 11:39 PM
Well you gotta think alot further in the game than just lvl 1
If you read my post more carefully you'd see that I did think further than that, but I could only use the level 1 stats for comparison because those are the only stats I could find. Usually the stats don't change too much in comparison to other classes later on, chances are Casts will still have higher HP and Attack Power than humans at level 100, for example. At level 1 the only advantage that a RAmar has over a RAcast is his evasion. I'm hoping that after some levelling RAmars will develop advantages in other stats as well, but there's a good chance that he won't because his useless force stats will drag the rest of his stats down.


so if you wanted to "sub" FO then boom there ya go
What if i don't want to use force as my sub class when I reach Expert class? It looks like a HURAcast will still be superior to a HURAmar, for the same reasons.


The inclusion of Expert Type is at least a step in the right direction because it gives all of those 'second tier' classes a real reason to exist.
Unless dual classes are forced upon me with expert type, I want to stay a RAmar, not a FORAmar or a HURAmar. It would be nice if I could be the class that I want to be without being stuck as a 2nd tier character. Serious players aren't going to allow any 2nd tier characters into their party because of the job level experience at stake. I'm worried that it'll be like cmode all over again; noone wanted me on their cmode team because I was a RAmar, and now that every mission is timed and has a ranking that affects the reward, every mission is kinda like cmode, and amongst serious players there will be no tolerance for players using inferior classes.

Panda, if you're reading this, you seem to know alot about online RPGs and you seem like you're going to be pretty hardcore with this game. If RAmars turn out to be an inferior class would you want one on your team?


Miyoshi did speak of how important balance was to him
I remember reading that too, but remember that this is Sega we're talking about. The golden days when Sega's games were high quality more often than not are long gone. Sega made many really stupid mistakes with PSO, so I dont trust them to get it right this time. I hope they do, but I'm not holding my breath.


ppl need to understand that all the chars cannot be perfectly balanced. if you compare the ramar and the racast, one will always be better than the other.
True, but from the information we have it doesn't look like they're even trying to keep them balanced. The only way they'll end up being even remotely balanced is if HUs and RAs don't get punished in other stats for having higher force stats than other HUs and RAs.

_EiN_
Aug 8, 2006, 11:41 PM
skill is always better than stats. although i see your were your comming from. the expert class seems like it created with humans in mind so i am pretty sure humans will have more appeal at later lvls.

Arrow203
Aug 8, 2006, 11:49 PM
on the "sub" i was talking about i was only giving an example, for me if this works out to what its all cracked up to be i will not 'sub" FO i will "sub" HU for greater attack power, i mean cmon cast kinda sucks as a force anyways >.>

Phaze37
Aug 8, 2006, 11:53 PM
f I play as a hulking metal Cast Hunter I should of course be way stronger than a small skinny Newman Hunter.
And by all means, your cast hunter should do more damage than a newman hunter. However the newman hunter should have an advantage in other hunter stats so that he's not simply worse than your character. Otherwise we're going to see tons of HUbeasts, RAcasts/caseals and FOnewms/newearls and very few people using other classes. In PSO HUnewearls could at least use techniques, meaning that none of their stats were useless, and even though the characters werent perfectly balanced in PSO at least they tried to make them balanced. 'Cept in the dreamcast versions where HUmars were ultimate.


But that shouldn't be a reason to prevent you from choosing what you want. If you want to be a FOcast or HUnewman there is nothing stopping you.
If they're going to be worse than other classes that's more than enough to stop me from wanting to use them. I dont want to spend hundreds of hours levelling up a character only to find another player at the same character level, job level, and skill level doing better than me simply because he chose a better race.


In the end, skill is what over comes stats.
True, but good stats make a good compliment to skill

Arrow203
Aug 8, 2006, 11:56 PM
i know this isn't ffxi but i still feel the need to say this... NO! Just because you have ub3|2 l33t stats cuz of gear and what not doesn't mean that you've got the skill to do so... i've met soooooooooooooooooooooooo many people that had this god awesome gear but couldn't play the game worth a **** it sickened me...

_EiN_
Aug 8, 2006, 11:58 PM
wow, you have solidified my choice as a cast i personally thank you http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif.

Phaze37
Aug 9, 2006, 12:06 AM
Just because you have ub3|2 l33t stats cuz of gear and what not doesn't mean that you've got the skill to do so... i've met sooo many people that had this god awesome gear but couldn't play the game worth a **** it sickened me...
You're comparing a poorly skilled player with good stats and equipment to a skillful player without good stats and equipment. In that situation, the guy with the skills will often be more effective, like you say. But if you compare two equally skilled players, the guy with better stats and equipment is going to be more effective. Same goes for two equally skilled players in PSU when one player picks a better race than the other.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phaze37 on 2006-08-08 22:35 ]</font>

Sev
Aug 9, 2006, 12:44 AM
On 2006-08-08 22:06, Phaze37 wrote:

Just because you have ub3|2 l33t stats cuz of gear and what not doesn't mean that you've got the skill to do so... i've met sooo many people that had this god awesome gear but couldn't play the game worth a **** it sickened me...


You're comparing a poorly skilled player with good stats and equipment to a skillful player without good stats and equipment. In that situation, the guy with the skills will often be more effective, like you say. But if you compare two equally skilled players, the guy with better stats and equipment is going to be more effective. Same goes for two equally skilled players in PSU when one player picks a better race than the other.



If you really are picking your character based on stats then I suggest if you're going to be a Ranger, to be a Cast. As far as stats go, they're the most suited for the role. However, no one knows how the stats will turn out toward the end of the game. Let alone with Expert Type will actually allow you to do. My opinion is that Expert Type exists to balance out the game in a way... Appearnaces don't make the game though... Otherwise all smaller characters would have their strength severely reduced.

It's all up in the air at this point... Although you could see the difference between races in the Beta, the real test comes later on in the game. That's when everything should normally even out. And although balance may make the game seem boring... It would really depend on how they decide to balance the stats out. Afterall, there's more to a Hunter then ATP. I'd really like to see alot of different types through this Expert Type category.

Saner
Aug 9, 2006, 12:55 AM
PvP isnt even in this game so it's really pointless comparing these things so closely. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Another race/class is more effective than yours; who cares? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Roffkaiser
Aug 9, 2006, 01:09 AM
Couldn't have said it any better myself saner, if people really care that much about stats, they are newbs....or perfectionists, either way just be who you want and have fun, that is partly why casts can be force now, even though it doesn't make much sense, it is an option and could be entertaining!

Zeig123
Aug 9, 2006, 01:09 AM
Another race/class is more effective than yours; who cares? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif



I agree...cause like people have said before it is really what you want to be not about stats. I might even make my main character a HUnewearl just to show people that stats arent everything....and if this expert type thing doesnt make the game more balanced then just deal with it and play where your heart is...even if it means having useless stats in the end because a player with alot of skill could easily overcome someone with high stats even it was a HUnewearl compared to a HUbeast.

Sotaka
Aug 9, 2006, 01:31 AM
<- Stat fanatic. Plays FOnewearl. Insta-win. <.<

Phaze37
Aug 9, 2006, 01:55 AM
Wow, I disagree with all of you. Good stats are important. In PSU you owe it to your teammates to be the best hunter/ranger/force that you can be, since a poor performance will reduce the rank and reward for every member of your party. If you choose a race that doesnt have good stats for your class, you won't be playing to your full potential, therefor you're not being as helpful to your party as you could be. Am I really the only one here who thinks that balance is important?!? Is it really too much to ask that they at least attempt to balance the characters? I had no idea until now that my view on the importance of character balance was in the minority.

Why does everyone keep using the argument that skill is more important? Of course it's more important, but just because someone is using a top-tier race/class combination doesn't mean they wont be skilled.


...even if it means having useless stats in the end because a player with alot of skill could easily overcome someone with high stats even it was a HUnewearl compared to a HUbeast.
What if that person DOES have skill? He will be more effective than you. And you're dreaming if you think you'll be able to "easily" overcome the better character through skill. You're assuming that the other player is unskilled, which most of the time wont be the case.

Why would you want to give yourself a crutch on purpose??

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phaze37 on 2006-08-08 23:59 ]</font>

Saner
Aug 9, 2006, 02:03 AM
that sounds too much like Communism, maybe. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

you can't expect everyone to be balanced. not every combination will use the race's full potential. but unlike mmorpgs, they are not useless even alone.

you will see Newman Hunters and Force Casts, and they can still take care of themselves.

that's all there is to it. not everyone are 'power players' that have an inflated ego and inferiority/superiority complex. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Sgt_Shligger
Aug 9, 2006, 02:35 AM
Phaze you must realize that the MST/TAP stat does have benifits. It contributes to Photon Arts. This adds more "tech" damage to your attacks meaning that a Human/Newman can do more damage to a specific enemy. Cast/beasts can do this too but their MST/TAP is far below that of Humans and Newmans.

I personally like unbalanced character systems. Two players CAN NOT be equal in skill because everyone uses alternating strategies, ideas, and choices. If a Hunewearl is up against a Hubeast, it's all about utilizing your strengths. The Beast and Newm will fight differently because they are not the same.

All in all, the classes will balance out fine in the end. 'Nuff said.

Ether
Aug 9, 2006, 02:53 AM
On 2006-08-09 00:35, SgtShligger wrote:
Phaze you must realize that the MST/TAP stat does have benifits. It contributes to Photon Arts. This adds more "tech" damage to your attacks meaning that a Human/Newman can do more damage to a specific enemy. Cast/beasts can do this too but their MST/TAP is far below that of Humans and Newmans.

Bzzt wrong try again

MST is how much damage you take from techs, TAP is how much damage you do with techs. Neither effect Skills or Bullets at all, which are still based off your ATP and ATA

Roffkaiser
Aug 9, 2006, 03:01 AM
On 2006-08-08 23:55, Phaze37 wrote:
Wow, I disagree with all of you. Good stats are important. In PSU you owe it to your teammates to be the best hunter/ranger/force that you can be, since a poor performance will reduce the rank and reward for every member of your party. If you choose a race that doesnt have good stats for your class, you won't be playing to your full potential, therefor you're not being as helpful to your party as you could be. Am I really the only one here who thinks that balance is important?!? Is it really too much to ask that they at least attempt to balance the characters? I had no idea until now that my view on the importance of character balance was in the minority.

Why does everyone keep using the argument that skill is more important? Of course it's more important, but just because someone is using a top-tier race/class combination doesn't mean they wont be skilled.


I doubt doing 1142 damage instead of 1179 damage is letting down you team man, now lets say you are some newb that is picking flowers while a Wolf Blitzer pwns your team, then you are letting down your team. Really the stat differences are drastic enough that you would ever be letting down your team if you are a RAmar instead of RAcast. Unless of course everyone is about to die and you whip out your SUV and gas guzzle all the enemies to death...but lets not get into the "what if" stuff.

Phaze37
Aug 9, 2006, 04:01 AM
Saner, I'm not a communist, I'm not a powergamer, I don't have an inflated ego and I don't have a complex. You're not being very nice http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif I've only ever bothered to hunt 5 items in my entire PSO career, when most players I knew spent most of their time doing runs for specific items. I was really carefree in PSO, I would usually just find a cool group of random people and tag along and help with whatever they're up to, even if they called dibs on all the good drops. Does that sound like a powergamer to you? I don't plan on going all out for PSU either. That's why I was curious as to what makes a RAmar worth playing; I don't want my only online character to have poor stats for his class on top of the below average equipment he'll be wearing. I was concerned because back in PSO the only real advantages RAmars had were basic techniques and ATA, and it looks like both of these advantages had been removed without any compensation.

However, I didn't know that MST reduces the amount of damage taken by techniques. That makes the classes seem alot more balanced than I originally thought. That's actually pretty cool how humans will take less damage from techniques than androids or beasts. That sounds like a really significant advantage. Now that I know this RAmars seem alot more apealing. Thanks for pointing that out Ether.

therealAERO
Aug 9, 2006, 04:38 AM
I personally don't like the idea of the expert class. I like how you have to switch back and forth depending on the job. I liked being just a hunter and didn't have to worry about healing others around me, since it wasn't my job.

That was the job of my force friends, and they did a really good job. If I am starting to get beat I can always count on them to help me if I don't have any healing items.

Just the same way they count on me as a hunter to clear the field and keep them safe. Just how Rangers stay in the back and add extra support with fire arms. I would say PSU is much more balanced than PSO. Balanced in the fact that we have to work as teams to get through the game. Soloing is ok, but really you will find your most benefit with a team, and you will have the most fun. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: therealAERO on 2006-08-09 02:39 ]</font>

Suiko
Aug 9, 2006, 05:12 AM
You're wanting to see if RAmar is worth playing? You'll have to make the choice. It's up to you to decide which deciding factor is greater when choosing what race/class combo you want: Having the best stats possible for a particular class, or having a character you like because of cosmetic appeal (Newmans look slick and cool; Robots are awesome, so Casts it is! etc.). Good luck with that decision ^-^

Saner
Aug 9, 2006, 05:15 AM
On 2006-08-09 02:01, Phaze37 wrote:
Saner, I'm not a communist, I'm not a powergamer, I don't have an inflated ego and I don't have a complex. You're not being very nice http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif I've only ever bothered to hunt 5 items in my entire PSO career, when most players I knew spent most of their time doing runs for specific items. I was really carefree in PSO, I would usually just find a cool group of random people and tag along and help with whatever they're up to, even if they called dibs on all the good drops. Does that sound like a powergamer to you? I don't plan on going all out for PSU either. That's why I was curious as to what makes a RAmar worth playing; I don't want my only online character to have poor stats for his class on top of the below average equipment he'll be wearing. I was concerned because back in PSO the only real advantages RAmars had were basic techniques and ATA, and it looks like both of these advantages had been removed without any compensation.

However, I didn't know that MST reduces the amount of damage taken by techniques. That makes the classes seem alot more balanced than I originally thought. That's actually pretty cool how humans will take less damage from techniques than androids or beasts. That sounds like a really significant advantage. Now that I know this RAmars seem alot more apealing. Thanks for pointing that out Ether.



okay that's understandable but they wouldn't throw in certain combinations if people couldn't effectively solo as them. and if you can solo as them then you can definitely contribute to the team.

The Japan release is like 2 months before the U.S. release so that's plenty of time to study how balanced and fair things are. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

Saner
Aug 9, 2006, 05:24 AM
On 2006-08-09 02:38, therealAERO wrote:
I personally don't like the idea of the expert class. I like how you have to switch back and forth depending on the job. I liked being just a hunter and didn't have to worry about healing others around me, since it wasn't my job.

That was the job of my force friends, and they did a really good job. If I am starting to get beat I can always count on them to help me if I don't have any healing items.

Just the same way they count on me as a hunter to clear the field and keep them safe. Just how Rangers stay in the back and add extra support with fire arms. I would say PSU is much more balanced than PSO. Balanced in the fact that we have to work as teams to get through the game. Soloing is ok, but really you will find your most benefit with a team, and you will have the most fun. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: therealAERO on 2006-08-09 02:39 ]</font>


Ya the good thing is that Expert Class won't be a factor until a long time later when people meet the requirements to use Expert Class.


but E.C. is a positive thing because it offers what even the classic PS games allowed, which was 'hunters' and 'rangers' being able to use techniques as well, etc. etc.

Phantasy Star was never so 2 dimensional as to limit warriors and mages from not sharing things. namely techniques. Even Alis, Rolf and Chaz use techniques.

Ya Rudo was a 'Ranger type' (even though his occupation is 'Hunter', get it?, lol http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif ) and didn't use techniques but PSIII Wren could and guns as well.


so Expert Type would provide that freedom to those who get that far to earn such a priviledge. and this could lead to more interesting Class combinations. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Zeig123
Aug 9, 2006, 05:35 AM
On 2006-08-08 23:55, Phaze37 wrote:
Wow, I disagree with all of you. Good stats are important. In PSU you owe it to your teammates to be the best hunter/ranger/force that you can be, since a poor performance will reduce the rank and reward for every member of your party. If you choose a race that doesnt have good stats for your class, you won't be playing to your full potential, therefor you're not being as helpful to your party as you could be. Am I really the only one here who thinks that balance is important?!? Is it really too much to ask that they at least attempt to balance the characters? I had no idea until now that my view on the importance of character balance was in the minority.

Why does everyone keep using the argument that skill is more important? Of course it's more important, but just because someone is using a top-tier race/class combination doesn't mean they wont be skilled.


...even if it means having useless stats in the end because a player with alot of skill could easily overcome someone with high stats even it was a HUnewearl compared to a HUbeast.
What if that person DOES have skill? He will be more effective than you. And you're dreaming if you think you'll be able to "easily" overcome the better character through skill. You're assuming that the other player is unskilled, which most of the time wont be the case.

Why would you want to give yourself a crutch on purpose??

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Phaze37 on 2006-08-08 23:59 ]</font>


I never said that the other player was unskilled but even if they are of equal skill you can still benifit the team and like I said a HUnewearl can be as effective as a HUbeast even if both players still have skill....yes the HUbeast may do more damage but think about...and Im not dreaming at all because I have seen it before where a weaker character overcomes the better through skill and such...so remember POINTS ARENT EVERYTHING!!!!!!

And who know maybe the high MST will help out more often because I read that most of the creatures have some kind of technique and the beast and cast have low MST compared to the newmans and say they die from the techs more easily...that would again make the Hunewearl better int that case meaning the beast would cost the team a rating....so yes the newman has low DFP but it is not hard to evade an attack...yes I would have to play the game to see how fast the spells are but they may be harder to dodge. So in the end yes a HUnewearl would help out the team as much as a HUbeast. Rember to look at all the advantages of a character before trying to judge it.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zeig123 on 2006-08-09 03:38 ]</font>

Kyuu
Aug 9, 2006, 07:25 AM
On 2006-08-09 01:01, Roffkaiser wrote:

I doubt doing 1142 damage instead of 1179 damage is letting down you team man

I find it partly humorous, partly annoying that people use weird and completely false statements like that to argue that stats aren't important. The difference in damage potential between a beast and a cast isn't going to be that small once you get up to the point where either one can do a thousand damage per hit. The difference between a beast and a human, or a beast and a newman will be even larger. I personally find it highly doubtful that the stat gap will do anything but widen as people get higher in levels.

The whole argument about skill is also pointless, as everyone who makes the argument also makes the assumption that everyone who plays the character with better stats is going to be less skilled than the players who pick characters with, shall we say, less optimum stats. Which is, of course, plainly rediculous. Most people, after playing the game for a while, are going to be pretty similar in terms of skill. Skill in anything, after all, comes more from practice than innate abilities. Some people will always be better than others, of course, and no one can deny that there are people who seem to be simply brain dead. But, *shrug*.

I'm not making the argument that stats are all-important. My planned characters are a RAnewearl, a HUcaseal, and a FOmar, none of which are the best picks stat-wise. Actually, they're all 2nd best speaking purely in terms of the class's primary stat, but that wasn't intentional ><. I'm counting on ST to have done a fair enough job balancing, and on the unknown factor of the Expert Type to even things out. But stats are still there, and they do make a difference.

PandaMasterX4
Aug 9, 2006, 10:11 AM
It looks like all classes will have their differences no matter what. The closest balance that will happen will probably start at level 20.

Pure-chan
Aug 9, 2006, 10:52 AM
On 2006-08-08 21:53, Phaze37 wrote:
In PSO HUnewearls could at least use techniques, meaning that none of their stats were useless, and even though the characters werent perfectly balanced in PSO at least they tried to make them balanced. 'Cept in the dreamcast versions where HUmars were ultimate.



Sorry if I'm not getting this, but won't HUnewearls, RAmars and even HUmars have the ability to use techniques through Expert type? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_confused.gif

uhawww
Aug 9, 2006, 10:53 AM
The second a differentiation is created between character classes and races, character balance is thrown off.

If any game wants true balance, every character would be equally as good as each other in everything, everyone would do the same amount of damage statically, and there would be no need for stats whatsoever. This, fortunately, is not the case.

The goal, I think, is to surmount those differences. To become as good or better than what the numbers say. Even if the goal is lofty or at time asymptotic. Whether that is attained through strategy, skill, equipment, all is irrelevent if you just have fun playing the game.
I think, regardless of any balance issue (unless game-breaking), the best course of action in these situations is to just deal with it.

Min-max'ing takes so much fun out of gaming.
If any of you play FFXI, you should be familiar with some of the monsters and mentalities that mindset has created.

hypersaxon
Aug 9, 2006, 11:03 AM
I don't see why people have to worry and argue about this stuff. The game is pretty much done, nothing anyone says or does is going to make Sonic Team redo their entire class system for the sake of making sure every class is balanced. So how about let ST worry about all those things and just relax?

I guarantee that once the game is out and people are having fun playing it, you'll look back at these topics and laugh.

uhawww
Aug 9, 2006, 11:04 AM
On 2006-08-09 09:03, hypersaxon wrote:
I guarantee that once the game is out and people are having fun playing it, you'll look back at these topics and laugh.


Right on.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: uhawww on 2006-08-09 09:05 ]</font>

Alisha
Aug 9, 2006, 11:23 AM
And by all means, your cast hunter should do more damage than a newman hunter. However the newman hunter should have an advantage in other hunter stats so that he's not simply worse than your character. Otherwise we're going to see tons of HUbeasts, RAcasts/caseals and FOnewms/newearls and very few people using other classes. In PSO HUnewearls could at least use techniques, meaning that none of their stats were useless, and even though the characters werent perfectly balanced in PSO at least they tried to make them balanced. 'Cept in the dreamcast versions where HUmars were ultimate.

dont newmans have the highest evasion or at leasy high evasion? so where another hunter wuld get hit the newman could continue to attack unhindered.and even if cast and beast are getting hit where a newman/human wouldnt.getting hit is charging thier nano blast/suv

DurakkenX
Aug 9, 2006, 11:28 AM
quite frankly... the fact is people will play an android no matter what if they prefer androids simply because they have an unique look. The other races don't have really anything unique about them in appearance so i can easilly see someone switching their race based on stats.

Dirty_Filthy
Aug 9, 2006, 11:37 AM
I guarantee that once the game is out and people are having fun playing it, you'll look back at these topics and laugh.



I'm looking and laughing right now.

Maxing all three jobs will be easier for a human, as they will be able to do all of the jobs well. Beasts and Casts will do two jobs really well, but the third will be harder than it was for humans. I don't think Beasts and Casts were given Nanoblasts and SUVs to make them even more powerful than they already are, but rather to balance out their short comings when it comes to the Force class. However,I think the nanoblast also covers a conceptual idea for the Beast race. I am willing to bet though, that a human will make a better hunter or ranger than a cast or beast will a force.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dirty_Filthy on 2006-08-09 10:34 ]</font>

Roffkaiser
Aug 9, 2006, 02:37 PM
On 2006-08-09 05:25, Kyuu wrote:


On 2006-08-09 01:01, Roffkaiser wrote:

I doubt doing 1142 damage instead of 1179 damage is letting down you team man

I find it partly humorous, partly annoying that people use weird and completely false statements like that to argue that stats aren't important. The difference in damage potential between a beast and a cast isn't going to be that small once you get up to the point where either one can do a thousand damage per hit. The difference between a beast and a human, or a beast and a newman will be even larger. I personally find it highly doubtful that the stat gap will do anything but widen as people get higher in levels.

The whole argument about skill is also pointless, as everyone who makes the argument also makes the assumption that everyone who plays the character with better stats is going to be less skilled than the players who pick characters with, shall we say, less optimum stats. Which is, of course, plainly rediculous. Most people, after playing the game for a while, are going to be pretty similar in terms of skill. Skill in anything, after all, comes more from practice than innate abilities. Some people will always be better than others, of course, and no one can deny that there are people who seem to be simply brain dead. But, *shrug*.

I'm not making the argument that stats are all-important. My planned characters are a RAnewearl, a HUcaseal, and a FOmar, none of which are the best picks stat-wise. Actually, they're all 2nd best speaking purely in terms of the class's primary stat, but that wasn't intentional ><. I'm counting on ST to have done a fair enough job balancing, and on the unknown factor of the Expert Type to even things out. But stats are still there, and they do make a difference.



It's called exaggeration and fallacy...two extremely effective tools of arguement, expecially if no one catches on. It just didn't have the same appeal to say 14 and 16 damage.

But really, with the constant amounts of damage rangers can throw out now, the damage a second on rangers is so up that the difference at most is a couple more seconds of shooting your pistol or machine gun to kill something. In a non-pvp mmo i just can't see where stats that are close really matter, you will take one or two more seconds to kill that NPC, should that ruin your experiance in the game and make you make an entirely new character? I hope not.

Kyuu
Aug 9, 2006, 02:48 PM
On 2006-08-09 12:37, Roffkaiser wrote:

But really, with the constant amounts of damage rangers can throw out now, the damage a second on rangers is so up that the difference at most is a couple more seconds of shooting your pistol or machine gun to kill something. In a non-pvp mmo i just can't see where stats that are close really matter, you will take one or two more seconds to kill that NPC, should that ruin your experiance in the game and make you make an entirely new character? I hope not.

You should realize that I'm not really disagreeing with you. You did see that I said my planned main character is a RAnewearl? o_0 (Though I'm definitely attracted to my HUcaseal, and I'm curious to see how my FOmar will play. We'll see.)

You have to factor in, however, that while RAs can output damage quickly now, you still have to reign it in. If you simply pump out bullets without any thought to efficiency or conservation, you'll run out of PP quick. Especially on weapons like dual-handguns, mechs, and other quick shooters.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kyuu on 2006-08-09 12:50 ]</font>

PandaMasterX4
Aug 9, 2006, 02:50 PM
I agree, non-pvp shouldn't really matter. PVP is where people look for the most powerful outcome but in non-pvp it's usually about team work. IMO, later in the levels, a force gets the best oppertunity at xp since they can multi-hit with a single spell. That should discourage hunters in becoming a force because a force will need the protection of a hunter.

It's nice that there is a bit of an imbalance so it at least allows you to identify yourself quite differently than the masses.

Roffkaiser
Aug 9, 2006, 03:16 PM
On 2006-08-09 12:48, Kyuu wrote:
You should realize that I'm not really disagreeing with you. You did see that I said my planned main character is a RAnewearl? o_0 (Though I'm definitely attracted to my HUcaseal, and I'm curious to see how my FOmar will play. We'll see.)

You have to factor in, however, that while RAs can output damage quickly now, you still have to reign it in. If you simply pump out bullets without any thought to efficiency or conservation, you'll run out of PP quick. Especially on weapons like dual-handguns, mechs, and other quick shooters.


Thats why you carry 17 pistols http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif But like i said, balance only comes into play when you are competing...and this isn't really a competition type of game.

And ZOMG you are going with a RAnewearl?! You better dual class as a FO yo....j/k do what you want, and don't let people put limits on your character, that is my philosophy.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Roffkaiser on 2006-08-09 13:17 ]</font>

PandaMasterX4
Aug 9, 2006, 03:21 PM
Rangers aren't going to need to buy ammunition are they? If not, I think that kinda sucks. Hunters need to fight up close, and Forces run out of TP. Looks like RA get the good end of the stick or easy http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Arrow203
Aug 9, 2006, 03:34 PM
Not to mention the fact that even if your using a rifle in First person mode you'll pump out alot of PP on mobs, a few times i was forced to switch to my saber/handgun to kill :/

Spellbinder
Aug 9, 2006, 03:39 PM
On 2006-08-09 13:21, PandaMasterX4 wrote:
Rangers aren't going to need to buy ammunition are they? If not, I think that kinda sucks. Hunters need to fight up close, and Forces run out of TP. Looks like RA get the good end of the stick or easy http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif





Rangers and Forces are limited by the amount of Photon Points their weapons posess, and while Hunters aren't directly limited by Photon Points, it does limit their use of Photon Arts.

Lyrise
Aug 9, 2006, 03:41 PM
I'm going to disregard most of the posts here and provide some new insight on the topic (not to say I haven't read it, some good points were brought up)

In any case, here are my thoughts.

1. Some of these points brought up only seem to reflect static classing. That is when you make a character, its going to stay that class no matter what. I think when PSU was derived, the team wanted people to enjoy every possible setup and find a style they like to play, while giving the ability to mix it up when necessary. While I dislike the idea of Expert Level, I can accept it given that it just builds upon the idea of being able to mix it up a little better.

2. Nobody here knows what the growth curve progression of each race and class is going to be. To judge everything off beginning and early to mid-game stats only means you understand half of your character's strengths and weaknesses. Disregarding PSO, since this isn't PSO anymore, there just might be a time when your stat growth starts to slow down or cap off, and the advantage there was just to have it earlier to make things easier. Not saying this will be the case in PSU, but I'm also saying that this could be happening. Nobody will have the real answer till people start hitting endgame in PSU. And finally...

3. PSU seems to have a big balance between character stats and equipment. Whereas in PSO, once you got to a high enough level, it almost didn't matter what weapon you used, they'd all work pretty well. In PSU, a very good portion of your offensive and defensive ability comes from the equipment you're using.

Offensive-based example: Some of the higher end staves in PSU beta were giving off 500 Technique power or more. Force-type casts could do pretty decent damage, sure they'd do less than a Force-type Newman if both were using the same weapon, and assuming the same level, but give the newman a crummy low level wand, and suddenly the Cast is doing more damage (not by a huge amount but that's not the point).

Defensive-based example: Not every piece of armor has the slots and stats you want. There will be times when to get the slots you want, you'll have to use armors that have less than desirable stats, or stats that were designed for a different class in mind. In beta, for example, the absolute best armors you could buy were seriously lacking in slots, while for casts, the ones that had extra slots weren't exactly spectacular, and in one case, was built for a force in mind. I'm pretty sure about it when I say that there will be no add slots whatsoever in this game, just as there's no materials in PSU.

To sum everything up, the balance will come depending on the style you play, with the great equalizer being the fact that your stats and equipment needs to work together to produce a character you think will be best for you. Just my $0.02.

Arrow203
Aug 9, 2006, 03:52 PM
And your right dude, but its whats called a good ole American right to aregue until we see otherwise, lmao... I didn't choose RAcast for the stats, i just love cast. But hey if it can give me a "certain" advantage in the area i like (Ranger) Then more power to me... early in the game that is.

DoctorShasta
Aug 9, 2006, 04:48 PM
Very good points brought up in this topic but I think I'm just gonna stick with the RAmar

PandaMasterX4
Aug 9, 2006, 05:17 PM
I like that even RA will need PP. ST really showed a different form of balance by providing this kinda of depth to characters abilities.

Shiro_Ryuu
Aug 9, 2006, 10:03 PM
gosh, another one of these topics. I don't care what anyone says, I'm picking HUmar. I don't have to be a beast, who would also be more likely to get miss and more likely to get hit himself, making him seem like a guy who's all brute strength, which should not be the case with Hunters.

Jife_Jifremok
Aug 10, 2006, 05:09 AM
Balance is important, even if it's just because a lack of balance makes the game's devs look stupid and/or lazy. That's especially true when said devs are now moving along and learning from past mistakes.

I never liked when people say that balance is lost when characters become different. It's no fun if everything's exactly the same, but they need to have differences that are properly balanced. To use math even though I normally hate it...

If Human = Numan = Cast = Beast
100 = 100 =100 = 100 is BORING!
100 = 79+21 = 112-12 = 80x1.25 is much better, since they're all equal but not all the frickin' same thing. Of course, with something like an online game with realtime combat, such an ideal cannot possibly be reached without some major force of luck and genius. Still, balancing should still be close enough that the differnece isn't too glaring.
Human=100, Numan=81+22, Cast=112-8, Beast = 81x1.24 could be a good (example) estimate of what things should be. Now, if it were Human=100, Numan=80-45, Cast=199-1, Beast=90x2.5 then we'll have a problem. Of course that's really extreme and I doubt ST would even make it even close to this sort of horrible unbalancing.

And aside form all that, I'm gonna be a Human Ranger no matter what, and SUV Weapon makes me wanna have a Cast alt no matter what.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jife_Jifremok on 2006-08-10 03:12 ]</font>

PJ
Aug 10, 2006, 09:24 AM
On 2006-08-08 21:34, PhotonCat wrote:
In the end, all races will not be balanced out. Certain races will be far better(stat-wise) at a certain class than others.

Wait, we need to be "balanced" with this too? People really want a Hunter Newman to be as good a Hunter as a Beast, or a Force Beast to be as good a Force as a newman?

The point is, there is balance. Casts are easily the best Rangers, Beasts the best Hunters, Newmans the best Force. Humans get all around (If anything is out of balance, it's the humans ability to be everything). If you wanna make a FO beast, you're gonna be worse casting than a newman of course, but if they were all equal in the same class, that's just dumb.

radical_ryan
Aug 10, 2006, 09:34 AM
It gonig to be allsome!!![url][b][i][center]

Saner
Aug 10, 2006, 10:29 AM
ya you have a point.

people shouldn't expect perfect balancing, otherwise there would be nothing different about each race stats-wise.

Just relax knowing that you can solo as any race/class combination. so that in itself shows you can take care of yourself and assist in a party well enough. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

AlphaX99
Aug 10, 2006, 10:58 AM
Yes and I think that is a wise last word to put in there.

PandaMasterX4
Aug 10, 2006, 11:11 AM
That'd be dumb to see a beast FO with the same PP as a newman. I'd also be dumb to see a newman with the same HP and power as a beast.

Shiro_Ryuu
Aug 10, 2006, 12:53 PM
yeah, but we don't want a bunch of HUbeasts, RAcasts/caseals, and FOnewm/newearls just because people are too afraid of dying or whatever. I would have wished if TAP would have affect on skills and bullets, then, humans and newmans would have advantages as Hunters and Rangers. at least there's expert mode, which would hopefully be like a subclass system or something.

Saner
Aug 10, 2006, 01:34 PM
ppl will create what they want no matter what. Humans and Newmans will still be popular.

I think the issue is that people are taking this too seriously that it distracts them from the reality that it'll turn out fine.

the only problem with this subject I forsee are picky party leaders who expect nothing less than optimal race/class combinations in their party. HUBeas, RACas, FONewms and nothing else.

But those type of leaders will generally be in the minority. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

it really isn't about having an advantage, as long as they have reasonable damage and endurance, then they're fine.

but ya I'm glad Humans have no special abilities because Humans are normal like they should be. I mean we are Humans ourselves. what's so special about us that we can pull out of nowhere and use against enemies? harsh language? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

but ya Newmans could of had some kind of photon burst special ability that charges like Nanoblasts and SUVs,

but whatever, I think the answers to all the balancing people seek will even out due to the Expert/DualClass feature they are including. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

I think Humans will benefit from that since they have no weaknesses, and Newmans would benefit from it especially if they have the FO class as one of the two.

PandaMasterX4
Aug 10, 2006, 01:39 PM
On 2006-08-10 11:34, Saner wrote:

the only problem with this subject I forsee are picky party leaders who expect nothing less than optimal race/class combinations in their party. HUBeas, RACas, FONewms and nothing else.

But those type of leaders will generally be in the minority. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif



I don't think race is everything. It always comes down to the core if the player is good or not.

In FF, everyone said Mithra was the best Thief because of their dex. I was Elvaan and I had stat boosting equipment to equal their dex, exceed in STR and AGL.

Everyone will bring something new to the table. It's just up to the people to push it to their limits.

Kyuu
Aug 10, 2006, 01:40 PM
Wait, we need to be "balanced" with this too? People really want a Hunter Newman to be as good a Hunter as a Beast, or a Force Beast to be as good a Force as a newman?

Yes, that's exactly what we want.


If Human = Numan = Cast = Beast
100 = 100 =100 = 100 is BORING!
100 = 79+21 = 112-12 = 80x1.25 is much better, since they're all equal but not all the frickin' same thing.Nice try, but completely missing the point. Asking for the races to be balanced is not the same thing as asking them to be the same. Yes, complete balance is nearly impossible without eliminating differences. However, I don't recall anyone saying "let's make all the races exactly the same in the name of balance!"


That'd be dumb to see a beast FO with the same PP as a newman. I'd also be dumb to see a newman with the same HP and power as a beast.Well, for starters, PP has nothing to do with your character. PP is 100% weapon-based. Also, again, no one is saying that newmans hunters should have the same HP and attack power as a beast.

Let me see if I can explain this in a way that can be understood. Wanting the races to be balanced is not the same thing as asking the races to be the same. For example, one reason the newman hunter issue comes up so often is because it's a prime example of what seems to be a balance issue, because newmans have poor ATP and HP, and their strong point, TAP, is completely useless. For every other race, their strengths are usable no matter what their class. A FObeast, for example, still has the option to melee, so they can put their higher ATP to use, and HP is useful for any class. A HUnewm, on the other hand, cannot cast technics, and TAP has no other use. That's why it's unbalanced.

Also, humans suffer from it as well. Their only real advantage is having OK stats in everything while still maintaining a decent TAP, compared to beasts and casts who have poor TAP in exchange for their strenghts. People like to bring up the point of "oh well humans can switch between all the classes and be OK." That's complete rubbish. Who is better off: a person who has one human character who they switch between the three classes, or a player with three characters, each of which is the optimum class/race combination, in terms of stats? The only way the ability to switch classes would ever be an actual issue is if everyone was limited to one character.

Anyways... whatever. This seems to have become another thread where people can't debate about the actual issue, and just come in and say things that are really quite besides the point, or just whine about existance of the thread, as though someone is forcing them to come in here and read it if it bothers them so much.

PJ
Aug 10, 2006, 01:44 PM
On 2006-08-10 11:40, Kyuu wrote:



Wait, we need to be "balanced" with this too? People really want a Hunter Newman to be as good a Hunter as a Beast, or a Force Beast to be as good a Force as a newman?

Yes, that's exactly what we want.

I hope to God you're joking

Kyuu
Aug 10, 2006, 01:48 PM
On 2006-08-10 11:44, PJ wrote:

I hope to God you're joking

*sighs* It's nice to the art of ignoring all of a post except one part is alive and well.

No, I'm not joking. Why should newman hunters be gimped? There's no rational reason. And as I already stated, asking for balance is NOT asking for them to be the same. I'm not saying newmans should have the same ATP and HP as a beasts. Kindly pay attention, or don't bother responding.

Edit: And yes, I'm irritable at the moment.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kyuu on 2006-08-10 11:49 ]</font>

Saner
Aug 10, 2006, 01:52 PM
Well Humans certainly outdone themselves creating 'superior' races. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

in any case, it isn't simply a matter of balancing as much as providing a more challenging option for players to consider.

After all, not every species is naturally talented or balanced in such a way to match someone else in other ways.

about 90% of the players online won't even notice or care about the 'disadvantages' Humans and HUNewms have compared to the more advantageous races and class combinations.


Did ANYONE during the closed beta criticize a Human or HUNewman party member for what they are and how less useful their type is? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

PandaMasterX4
Aug 10, 2006, 01:53 PM
Listen, in FFXI when you switch jobs you switch stats. So, if a beast becomes a Force, he won't have the same ATP as he did as if did when he was a Hunter. That is a given and anyone who over looks that, is seriously blind. The only thing is, how it should work, a beast will have more HP and yes higher stats in ATP and melee, but not nearly as powerful as TAP as a Newman would. A bst will need to boost their stats by lots, but if a Newman does the same boosts, they'll obviously have the upper hand no matter what.

In FF, A galka can be a blm or a WHM, but they'll have low MP and high HP. High mind but low INT. A galka would be using equipment to convert HP to MP if they want to be a good WHM or BLM, but doing that, they'll be able to cast more, but their nukes or cures won't hit as strong as a tarutaru.

That is what people need to understand.

PJ
Aug 10, 2006, 01:59 PM
Yeah, the art is still there.

Well Kyuu, if ST isn't stupid, you're gonna be disappointed regardless.

Hunter Newmans SHOULD be gimped, and I'll spell it out for you

You know why Newmans are good Forces?

Newmans
Have
Good
Magic

You know why Beasts are good Hunters?

Beasts
Have
Good
Power

You know why Beasts make bad Forces?

Beasts
Have
Bad
Magic

You know why Newmans make bad Hunters?

Newmans
Have
Bad
Power

In case you didn't get it, the balance here is that

Beasts = Power
Newmans = Magic
Beasts Doesn't = Magic
Newmans Doesn't = Power

Not rocket science. It's not impossible to play Newman as hunter, but their strongest point is their magic. If they became as good Hunters as Beasts, then Beasts would have to be as good forces to compensate. So now we're all playing the SAME class, only they look different, and Beasts have them transformy dealies. So they're STILL better Hunters.

Garroway
Aug 10, 2006, 02:16 PM
I don't think I've ever played a game where there wasn't some sort of class balancing periode. I'm sure within 6 months people will have figured out how to maximize race/class combinations and we'll see some glaring inadequacies and advantages. The developers will make adjustments. People will whine about their character being nerfed, depsite the fact that they know they're only playing that character because of an unfair advantage. Time will pass, the process will repeat itself. I'm sure throughout the lifetime of the game we'll see strengths and weakness ebb and flow as the "balance" gets fine tuned.

hypersaxon
Aug 10, 2006, 03:14 PM
I think the reason that Newman characters don't get a special is because, since the Force class is the most damaging class now, Newmans are going to be doing phenomenal damage when using techs. So giving them a special would be kind of overkill for them.

Also, it's pretty apparent that Sonic Team wants people to play as the Cast and Beast races more, so they gave the player extra incentive to do so. Humans and Newmans are a lot more popular, namely Humans in particular. So they don't get a special so people will want to give the other races a try.

Abaru-FP
Aug 10, 2006, 04:07 PM
On 2006-08-10 11:44, PJ wrote:


On 2006-08-10 11:40, Kyuu wrote:



Wait, we need to be "balanced" with this too? People really want a Hunter Newman to be as good a Hunter as a Beast, or a Force Beast to be as good a Force as a Newman?

Yes, that's exactly what we want.

I hope to God you're joking



I think what Kyuu is trying to get through is that they should be balanced, but in different ways. It is possible to be balanced without being identical copies of one another. For example, in PSO, a HUcast and a HUnewearl were more or less balanced. Even though one was more powerful, the other had techniques to compensate.

Even if I misjudged Kyuu's argument, I see allot of virtue in this equal-but-different system. People should be able to play what they want, and not have to conform to a cookie-cutter formula to be comparable to another class. Sadly, unless Expert Type is the answer to all our concerns, this appears to be impossible in PSU since the HU and RA classes cannot cast any techniques, and the advantages that the HUnewearl had in PSO have been taken away from her.

This is where my point of view becomes hard to express. I don't really see the imbalance here as a bad thing either. It makes perfect sense that a giant robot should be able to swing harder than a tiny Newman girl. If you want to pick a magical race, and be a warrior, it’s your right. But because of the limitations in PSU, you have to understand that you are sacrificing your exceptional magical powers to do so. Most people can't accept this, because their personal tastes conflict with what people are assuming with what people view as the "best" combination. I don't have an elitist bone in my body, so this is easy to swallow for me. I like my character to be different, for better or worse.

This is getting long...Anyway, I expect Expert Class to fix all these problems, and give the HUnewearl her unique edge back. But there will still be room for complaining, such as the troublemaker in the back of the class who wants to be a HU/raNewearl.

DoctorShasta
Aug 10, 2006, 07:48 PM
Yes or maybe they will make some Photon Art that will be more powerful if you have more technique power? It's a long shot but trying to think outside the box here haha

Shiro_Ryuu
Aug 10, 2006, 07:59 PM
I totally agree 100% with Kyuu. Newman are not brute strength guys, but they should be good Hunters in their own way, they have the best evasion of the other races, they take magic techs better than the other races, they have the second best ATA of the other races, so maybe that might be something. they might seem more like technical fighters as opposed to power fighters, like a HUnewm would be a muay thai fighter and the HUbeast would be like a pro wrestler.

Saiffy
Aug 10, 2006, 08:27 PM
If you are to compare PSOs balance, comparing HUnewearl and HUcast is stupid. The only thing in common they have is that their HUs. There is no balance, one is one, one is another. There is a balance, if you wanna call it that, newmans have more MST than beasts, beasts have more ATP than newman. It isn't hard to understand.

You're only making this more complicated because you want to make it complicated.

Axios-
Aug 10, 2006, 09:11 PM
Characters don't have to be perfectly equal. Beasts should be the most effective as hunters because that's their affinity. That does not mean that every other race has to be craptastic. If a person wants to play as a newman hunter, by all means go ahead. No, it won't be as easy as it would be for a beast, but with enough skill and knowledge, the player should at least be able to keep that newman hunter at a competitive level with the beast. They don't have to be the same.

MissingAce
Aug 10, 2006, 09:24 PM
I think as long as you like your character then who cares whether its powerful or not. I understand why some people want super powered characters but honestly. Characters should not be balanced. Variety is said to be the spice of life. So trying a different race that may not be best suited for the job may still be a good choice. Make your charcter great.

Axios-
Aug 10, 2006, 09:27 PM
Having variety and being unbalanced are two very different things. Look at HUnewearls and HUcasts of PSO. Could a player be successful as a HUnewearl? Yes. Do HUnewearls play the same as HUcasts? No.

Kers
Aug 10, 2006, 09:54 PM
There won't be much variety if the characters aren't balanced. The game's producer said he's placed the most importance on balance so, worry if you think he missed a few things.

To restate what people have said on this topic, the characters don't have to be the same to be balanced. The class/race effectiveness vs. environments should equal out in different ways.

Phaze37
Aug 10, 2006, 10:34 PM
Let me see if I can explain this in a way that can be understood. Wanting the races to be balanced is not the same thing as asking the races to be the same. For example, one reason the newman hunter issue comes up so often is because it's a prime example of what seems to be a balance issue, because newmans have poor ATP and HP, and their strong point, TAP, is completely useless. For every other race, their strengths are usable no matter what their class. A FObeast, for example, still has the option to melee, so they can put their higher ATP to use, and HP is useful for any class. A HUnewm, on the other hand, cannot cast technics, and TAP has no other use. That's why it's unbalanced.

Also, humans suffer from it as well. Their only real advantage is having OK stats in everything while still maintaining a decent TAP, compared to beasts and casts who have poor TAP in exchange for their strenghts. People like to bring up the point of "oh well humans can switch between all the classes and be OK." That's complete rubbish. Who is better off: a person who has one human character who they switch between the three classes, or a player with three characters, each of which is the optimum class/race combination, in terms of stats? The only way the ability to switch classes would ever be an actual issue is if everyone was limited to one character.

Kyuu, thanks for taking exactly what I've been trying to say and wording it alot better than I have.

Newmans should be just as good at being a hunter as a beast, but not by having the same or similiar stats. The beast should obviously dish out more damage in close combat, but the newman should be able to do something worthwhile better than the beast. In PSO it was the ability to use magic. In PSU, who knows what it will be. Balancing the two doesn't mean giving the newman ATP to match that of a beast, but he should be higher than the beast in a few of his stats that are useful to hunters, so that there is a good reason to use a HUnewm over a HUbeast. Saying that the newman should be worse at being a hunter than a beast simply because newmans are supposed to be forces doesn't make sense, because if that is the case then there is truly no good reason to be a HUnewm. Cosmetic reasons should not be the only good reason to use a certain race/class combination. And saying that humans will be balanced because they can switch classes easily also does not make sense, since until Expert mode you can only use one class at a time. Also, from what I understand, if you switch classes all the time you'll end up being a high level character with very low skill as a HU, RA, and FO. Sure, you'll be able to do all 3, but not at once, and your character will be inferior compared to someone at the same level who stuck with one class the entire time. For this reason, being able to change classes easily isn't much of an advantage at all.

All I'm saying is that we should be able to pick any race/class combination we want and still be as good as other combinations. I just hope that Sonic Team knows what they're doing, because they won't be able to fix any imbalances through patches. They have to get it close to balanced the first time.

MilkRocker
Aug 10, 2006, 11:07 PM
Looking at the different brand weapons and their varying stats, I can see how a balance in regular combat could easily be achieved. A HUbeast with a Saber from GRM will maybe hit hard with it, but not often with his inherently poor ATA, while a HUnewm with the same Saber of the same brand could do damage and land hits on par with a HUbeast of a brand more suited to ATA.

There seem to be plenty of limiting factors that would allow for balance. Give it a month.

Roffkaiser
Aug 10, 2006, 11:46 PM
I think the easiest way for it to be balanced, and I am thinking this may be indeed true, is that your TAP makes your Photon Arts more powerful, so Humans and Newmans will have an advantage over other races when using techniques, bullets, and skills. This is a way of giving people a way to use their MST and TAP stats to balance out the differences in strength and HP.

Kyuu
Aug 10, 2006, 11:53 PM
On 2006-08-10 21:07, MilkRocker wrote:
Looking at the different brand weapons and their varying stats, I can see how a balance in regular combat could easily be achieved. A HUbeast with a Saber from GRM will maybe hit hard with it, but not often with his inherently poor ATA, while a HUnewm with the same Saber of the same brand could do damage and land hits on par with a HUbeast of a brand more suited to ATA.

There seem to be plenty of limiting factors that would allow for balance. Give it a month.

Aye, I've noticed the positive effect that the different brands of weapons could have on balance issues. Although, with your example, casts are actually the best off since they could use the brand that gives a lot of attack power and lower accuracy more effectively than a newman, while having a higher base stat to start with.

As I've said before, though, I'm choosing to trust that ST kept balance issues in mind, and comments from Miyoshi-san seem to confirm this. So hopefully everything will turn out A-OK with my RAnewearl.

Also, while the whole thing about what appeals to you being more important than stats and all is nice (and I happen to agree), it's not really relevant to a discussion of balance issues. As you can see, I have quite a lot to say on the issue, yet my planned main is still a RAnewearl.

Saner
Aug 12, 2006, 05:08 AM
you'll shoot, you'll do damage, you'll be a safe distance away, you will do fine. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

DoctorShasta
Aug 12, 2006, 12:38 PM
Yea after reviewing all this id say the classes will be somewhat balanced i think their might be slight imbalances you can't really avoid that but I think it will be good.

Violation
Aug 12, 2006, 02:47 PM
PhotonCat

WoW, too balanced?!

*dies laughing*

Shiro_Ryuu
Aug 12, 2006, 05:06 PM
I agree w/ you violation, there's no such thing as too balanced.

Kyuu
Aug 12, 2006, 06:19 PM
On 2006-08-10 11:59, PJ wrote:
Yeah, the art is still there.

Well Kyuu, if ST isn't stupid, you're gonna be disappointed regardless.

Hunter Newmans SHOULD be gimped, and I'll spell it out for you

(Blah blah, deleting a bunch of stuff that's too spaced out.)

Not rocket science. It's not impossible to play Newman as hunter, but their strongest point is their magic. If they became as good Hunters as Beasts, then Beasts would have to be as good forces to compensate. So now we're all playing the SAME class, only they look different, and Beasts have them transformy dealies. So they're STILL better Hunters.

Still missing the point.

Beasts don't make bad forces, actually. Their low TAP is countered by their high HP and ATP that is high enough to allow them to melee at a passable level when necessary (i.e. low on PP, got a crowd and need to use some basic Photon Arts to clear some space). Newmans, on the other hand, have no access to their superior TAP as a hunter (or ranger) because they can't use technics at all, thus rendering your way-too-spaced-out argument null and void. Neither beasts nor casts lose access to their strengths when they're not their "ideal" class. Only newmans have that problem, and humans in a slightly different sort of way.

And for the 5 millionth time, I agree with the statement that it's more important to play what appeals to you rather than just going for the perfect stats (unless of course perfect stats are what appeals to you). However, it's not really relevant to a discussion of balance issues.

PJ
Aug 12, 2006, 06:45 PM
Look, I'm gonna be honest, I have no idea what the TAP crap is. But from what I hear, magic is now really strong. So Newmans being the best of the magic I think is a fine enough balance, even if they're shit outside that, it'll be evened out in the double class thing. Unless you go Ra/Hu, Hu/Ra, but then again, it's what you want to do anyway.

Shiro_Ryuu
Aug 12, 2006, 07:45 PM
^
not all newmans are gonna be [primarily] forces.

PJ
Aug 12, 2006, 07:46 PM
Right. By there's no reason for them not to be secondary Force.

Authenticate
Aug 12, 2006, 07:48 PM
I agree with PJ. They'll be workable hunters and rangers until they can get a force as their second job (if that's even how that works, I dunno.), and then they'll be able to support their team a bit better than anyone else who subs FO.

Now to the rant...

DOWN WITH THE ELF WANNABES! You be a force and like it, because by gawd, if you even think about being a Ranger or Hunter, I'm going to kick you in the shins. And it'll hurt. Because my feet are f'ing metal. Then maybe I'll dance arround you abit while you hold your shin, just to mock you. That doesn't sound very nice, now does it? So quit yer beeshin'. Crappy stats are the least of your worries.

Shiro_Ryuu
Aug 12, 2006, 07:50 PM
u never know, maybe someone might want a HU/RAnewm.

PJ
Aug 12, 2006, 08:17 PM
On 2006-08-12 17:48, Authenticate wrote:
DOWN WITH THE ELF WANNABES! You be a force and like it, because by gawd, if you even think about being a Ranger or Hunter, I'm going to kick you in the shins. And it'll hurt. Because my feet are f'ing metal. Then maybe I'll dance arround you abit while you hold your shin, just to mock you. That doesn't sound very nice, now does it? So quit yer beeshin'. Crappy stats are the least of your worries.



XD

Oh God bless you random PSOW poster

Shiro_Ryuu
Aug 12, 2006, 08:32 PM
why are u being so racist?

Zeig123
Aug 13, 2006, 12:15 AM
On 2006-08-12 17:50, Shiroryuu wrote:
u never know, maybe someone might want a HU/RAnewm.


I want a HUnewearl and i think they would do just find because spells do less damage and they do have high accuracy......long live the Newmans, long live the newmans and anyone who is racist against them should die http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_quickdraw.gif

[/quote]
DOWN WITH THE ELF WANNABES! You be a force and like it, because by gawd, if you even think about being a Ranger or Hunter, I'm going to kick you in the shins. And it'll hurt. Because my feet are f'ing metal. Then maybe I'll dance arround you abit while you hold your shin, just to mock you. That doesn't sound very nice, now does it? So quit yer beeshin'. Crappy stats are the least of your worries.
[quote]

Bring it on mr. bot because when you rust out in the ran I ant gunna help you and I might just as well dance around you and see if you like it!!!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zeig123 on 2006-08-12 22:52 ]</font>

Kyuu
Aug 13, 2006, 02:31 AM
Right. Because tin cans pretending really hard that they're humans are so much better.

Zeig123
Aug 13, 2006, 02:46 AM
On 2006-08-13 00:31, Kyuu wrote:
Right. Because tin cans pretending really hard that they're humans are so much better.


No they r not....I have nothing against tin cans but I hate it when people put down newmans because of their lower stats......I will prove that you can overcome anything with a newman even the atp difference and I will kick anyones ass who gets in my way because tin cans are not all that...so what they dont take alot of damage and hit more often because newmans wont take nearly as much as casts because they can simply dodge anthing and if the evp doesnt help out every time then just manualy evead the attack and if spells are hard to dodge we will see who is the last one satanding when a newman and a cast get hit by a spell (the cast will lose)

Sev
Aug 13, 2006, 04:28 AM
Nothing should be gimped at anything. If you have any idea of what balance is, you wouldn't be saying anything like that. I agree that races should excel in different areas, but that shouldn't lead those characters of that race to be gimped. That should just lead them down a different path as a character, and giving a Newman access to it's high TAP stat is a way of doing that if you ask me.

Zeig123
Aug 13, 2006, 04:34 AM
On 2006-08-13 02:28, Sev wrote:
Nothing should be gimped at anything. If you have any idea of what balance is, you wouldn't be saying anything like that. I agree that races should excel in different areas, but that shouldn't lead those characters of that race to be gimped. That should just lead them down a different path as a character, and giving a Newman access to it's high TAP stat is a way of doing that if you ask me.


Yes but it isnt the only way because the also have high evp and mst which can help make the effective hunters as well as forces and there high ata makes them good rangers too.

Zeig123
Aug 13, 2006, 05:59 AM
On 2006-08-13 02:34, Zeig123 wrote:


On 2006-08-13 02:28, Sev wrote:
Nothing should be gimped at anything. If you have any idea of what balance is, you wouldn't be saying anything like that. I agree that races should excel in different areas, but that shouldn't lead those characters of that race to be gimped. That should just lead them down a different path as a character, and giving a Newman access to it's high TAP stat is a way of doing that if you ask me.


Yes but it isnt the only way because the also have high evp and mst which can help make the effective hunters as well as forces and there high ata makes them good rangers too.

Edit: I am sorry about my harshness earlier....i was in a bad mood because of one of the coments about a newman and a cast earlier....I ask yur forgiveness but I just cant stand people who say that newmans are weak and inefective hunters and rangers

Alisha
Aug 13, 2006, 06:37 AM
even if all races had the exact same stats beasts would still be the best hunters because of nano blasts. people need to stop being phantasy star fanboys and wanting thier space elves to be uber combat demons. look in ps4 rika wasnt strong because she could hit harder than gryz(not saying she could) she was strong because she could attack twice each round.
i have a feeling newmans will excel with high atp low ata daggars and claws.

hypersaxon
Aug 13, 2006, 06:42 AM
On 2006-08-13 04:37, Alisha wrote:
even if all races had the exact same stats beasts would still be the best hunters because of nano blasts. people need to stop being phantasy star fanboys and wanting thier space elves to be uber combat demons. look in ps4 rika wasnt strong because she could hit harder than gryz(not saying she could) she was strong because she could attack twice each round.
i have a feeling newmans will excel with high atp low ata daggars and claws.



She could also use magic lol

Alisha
Aug 13, 2006, 06:55 AM
so what from what i remember it was mainly support magic and in a psu party setting no one will ever match a forces magic so whats the point.

Kyuu
Aug 13, 2006, 11:24 AM
On 2006-08-13 04:55, Alisha wrote:
so what from what i remember it was mainly support magic and in a psu party setting no one will ever match a forces magic so whats the point.

Using that logic, there's no point to being anything but a HUbeast, RAcast, or FOnewm. Why do anything if you can't match the optimum race/class combination?

Which is, of course, completely rediculous.

And I find it rather annoying that you're repeating the same nonsense as everyone else. No one is asking newmans to do the same damage as beasts or casts, or to be "uber combat demons." All I'm doing is pointing out something that is indeed unbalanced.

Now kindly shut up. If you don't like newmans, fine. I think the female nanoblasts are sexy, but otherwise I think beasts are pretty meh. I don't really care if you don't like the "space elves" anymore than you care what I like or dislike. People need to quit bringing in their irrational hatred for fictional videogame races.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kyuu on 2006-08-13 09:25 ]</font>

Alisha
Aug 13, 2006, 12:26 PM
On 2006-08-13 09:24, Kyuu wrote:


On 2006-08-13 04:55, Alisha wrote:
so what from what i remember it was mainly support magic and in a psu party setting no one will ever match a forces magic so whats the point.

Using that logic, there's no point to being anything but a HUbeast, RAcast, or FOnewm. Why do anything if you can't match the optimum race/class combination?

Which is, of course, completely rediculous.

And I find it rather annoying that you're repeating the same nonsense as everyone else. No one is asking newmans to do the same damage as beasts or casts, or to be "uber combat demons." All I'm doing is pointing out something that is indeed unbalanced.

Now kindly shut up. If you don't like newmans, fine. I think the female nanoblasts are sexy, but otherwise I think beasts are pretty meh. I don't really care if you don't like the "space elves" anymore than you care what I like or dislike. People need to quit bringing in their irrational hatred for fictional videogame races.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kyuu on 2006-08-13 09:25 ]</font>


Aesthetics of course the only reason i played a hunewearl in pso was because there was no humarl but eventually went to fomarl for my melee pleasures.

KylePhoenix
Aug 13, 2006, 12:50 PM
People need to quit bringing in their irrational hatred for fictional videogame races.

Me and my friend hate Gnomes on WoW.

Looks are quite swell but surely there must be some advantage to picking a "Down-Syndrome" class (Beast Force rofl). They probably get some sort of sexy advantage later life.

Apperance is a good basis though. I'm gonna be playing FoMar so I don't walk around as some faggot with pointy ears looking like I've constantly shat myself.

Sev
Aug 13, 2006, 01:03 PM
On 2006-08-13 02:34, Zeig123 wrote:


On 2006-08-13 02:28, Sev wrote:
Nothing should be gimped at anything. If you have any idea of what balance is, you wouldn't be saying anything like that. I agree that races should excel in different areas, but that shouldn't lead those characters of that race to be gimped. That should just lead them down a different path as a character, and giving a Newman access to it's high TAP stat is a way of doing that if you ask me.


Yes but it isnt the only way because the also have high evp and mst which can help make the effective hunters as well as forces and there high ata makes them good rangers too.



The whole point is that no other race has a ridiculously high stat that they can never access on one job. I was hoping from the beginning that TAP would have an effect on Skills and Bullets aside from Technics... It doesn't. That's where the balance tips because while Human and Newman races have higher stats here, they don't really do anything. Having a balancing game doesn't make it boring as long as they aren't all balanced in the same way... But they should at least be balanced in some way.

Shiro_Ryuu
Aug 13, 2006, 01:04 PM
On 2006-08-13 09:24, Kyuu wrote:


On 2006-08-13 04:55, Alisha wrote:
so what from what i remember it was mainly support magic and in a psu party setting no one will ever match a forces magic so whats the point.

Using that logic, there's no point to being anything but a HUbeast, RAcast, or FOnewm. Why do anything if you can't match the optimum race/class combination?

Which is, of course, completely rediculous.

And I find it rather annoying that you're repeating the same nonsense as everyone else. No one is asking newmans to do the same damage as beasts or casts, or to be "uber combat demons." All I'm doing is pointing out something that is indeed unbalanced.

Now kindly shut up. If you don't like newmans, fine. I think the female nanoblasts are sexy, but otherwise I think beasts are pretty meh. I don't really care if you don't like the "space elves" anymore than you care what I like or dislike. People need to quit bringing in their irrational hatred for fictional videogame races.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kyuu on 2006-08-13 09:25 ]</font>


and thus spoke an intelligent person named Kyuu.

PJ
Aug 13, 2006, 01:48 PM
1.

On 2006-08-10 11:40, Kyuu wrote:



Wait, we need to be "balanced" with this too? People really want a Hunter Newman to be as good a Hunter as a Beast, or a Force Beast to be as good a Force as a newman?

Yes, that's exactly what we want.

2.

On 2006-08-13 09:24, Kyuu wrote:
And I find it rather annoying that you're repeating the same nonsense as everyone else. No one is asking newmans to do the same damage as beasts or casts, or to be "uber combat demons." All I'm doing is pointing out something that is indeed unbalanced.

3. ???

4. PROFIT

So because Hunter Newmans won't do as much damage as Hunter Beasts, that's unbalanced? I still think it's funny http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

EDIT: Look, am I the only one seeing the argument going in a different direction everytiem Kyuu posts?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: PJ on 2006-08-13 11:52 ]</font>

Saiffy
Aug 13, 2006, 01:56 PM
Pick whatever race/class combo you want. Fuck with balance. One class/race combo is bound to be better than others. I'm gonna play whatever the shit I want to play, and not care about whether or not a different race can do what I'm doing better. Cause thats just how the cookie crumbles.

ST isn't going to change for one whiny kid anyways, so this isn't a debate, so much as...well...whining.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Saiffy on 2006-08-13 11:56 ]</font>

zandra117
Aug 13, 2006, 02:48 PM
I see that the characters are perfectly balanced but in a different way than you are thinking. Newmans and Casts are good in 2 classes and bad in the 3rd class. Humans are good in 1 class and moderate in 2 classes. and beasts are very good in 1 class and bad in 2 classes but its nanoblast ability makes up for it. The Cast's SUV weapon ability is basically a Photon Blast, nothing more.

Why does everyone say newmans are the worst characters? Its true that they are bad hunters but they are also the best forces and second best rangers.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: zandra117 on 2006-08-13 12:50 ]</font>

Saner
Aug 13, 2006, 03:11 PM
Newman Hunters have nothing to worry about, (unless they don't like the idea of other races having better stats overall as a Hunter, which is silly to think about because Newman Hunters will still be good fighters too. )


Look at Karen, you don't see her whining about Leo having more HP and doing more damage than her. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

people just take balancing too seriously. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

none of the races are useless, no matter what class they choose. and that's that.

Kyuu
Aug 13, 2006, 06:08 PM
On 2006-08-13 12:48, zandra117 wrote:

Why does everyone say newmans are the worst characters? Its true that they are bad hunters but they are also the best forces and second best rangers.

Speaking purely in terms of the classes' primary stats (ATP for hunters, ATA for rangers, TAP for forces), you're right. However, you have to remember the ATP also affects the damage a ranger's shots do, so saying that newmans are the second best rangers may be a bit of a shallow outlook.

And yes, PJ, you are the only one. Your problem is that when I say "balance," you hear "give newmans the same ATP as beasts." This could result from one of two problems: poor reading comprehension, or an inability, or perhaps refusal, to see the balance issue as something even the tiniest bit more complex than melee (or ranged) damage output. In either case, I see little point in persisting to try and argue the point.

As I've said before, I'm trusting ST to have given the problem of balance enough thought that I'll enjoy my RAnewearl. If her damage output is considerably poorer than a RAcast's or RAbeast's without sufficient compensation in some other area, then yes, that will probably make her not much fun for me. Say whatever you want, nobody likes to be simply gimped.

hypersaxon
Aug 13, 2006, 06:20 PM
Okay, I thought it was established that Expert Level allowed Newmans to use techs, thus making the whole point of this argument about Newmans sucking at the Hunter class null and void?

Saiffy
Aug 13, 2006, 07:34 PM
On 2006-08-13 16:08, Kyuu wrote:
And yes, PJ, you are the only one. Your problem is that when I say "balance," you hear "give newmans the same ATP as beasts." This could result from one of two problems: poor reading comprehension, or an inability, or perhaps refusal, to see the balance issue as something even the tiniest bit more complex than melee (or ranged) damage output. In either case, I see little point in persisting to try and argue the point.



On 2006-08-13 11:48, PJ wrote:
1.

On 2006-08-10 11:40, Kyuu wrote:

Wait, we need to be "balanced" with this too? People really want a Hunter Newman to be as good a Hunter as a Beast, or a Force Beast to be as good a Force as a newman?
Yes, that's exactly what we want.
Reading eh?

Just, be quiet already. You're stupid.

Kyuu
Aug 13, 2006, 07:50 PM
Kindly point out where I said give newmans equal ATP. I didn't.

Being as good a hunter doesn't mean doing the same melee damage. Reading, eh? Try reading the italicized portion of the second to last paragraph in my last post. Hopefully that isn't too difficult a concept to grasp.

And while it's certainly expected to be so, Hypersaxon, it's not really established. We really have no idea how the Expert Type feature works at all. I do assume it'll allow some type of technic usage, so the discussion might well be null and void as you say, though.

Alisha
Aug 13, 2006, 08:41 PM
http://ashton.hidoshi.com/mbimages/1337sig7jl.gif

Saner
Aug 13, 2006, 08:43 PM
please be polite. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif Kyuu is just a little concerned, that's all. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

ShinMaruku
Aug 14, 2006, 12:49 AM
If people are worry about stats Sonic Team should be asses and make humans become post-human and then pwn all the toehrs in all stats.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ShinMaruku on 2006-08-13 22:49 ]</font>

AvianKaitos
Aug 14, 2006, 12:51 AM
lol, I like how Leave in Peace is greyed out.

Sev
Aug 14, 2006, 12:53 AM
People just like to flame.

Look at it this way... Beasts supposedly make the worse Rangers due to low ATA. However, their high ATP makes up for alot of that, even if you miss a bit more often then other races, your hits do more.

Let's compare this to a Newman Hunter or Ranger and their high TAP. Does this help them anywhere that we know of? No. It's just a stat that is deemed useless outside of the Force category.

Even a Cast Force, with it's low TAP has decent ATA, ATP, DEF, and HP. So they're alot more durable as a Force correct? Although other Force's would outdamage a FOCast, aside from a FOBeast, the FOCast has good survivability. Also, the good ATA would also help with using a gun for ranged attacks when low on PP with a wand.

I'm not going to a be a Newman, but it's easy to say that where other classes seem to have something good on their side as far as a high stat, Newman's are the only race that gets a stat that's only usefull on one job. You're going to tell me... That's not kinda stupid and unbalanced? If Expert Level (Type) gives them a way to use that stat, then by all means they should. If you're going to argue that it's not unbalanced, how about some actual POINTS and not random crap? Kyuu isn't really saying anything wrong, it's more or less that this is the wrong board to say... Anything. Myself included as one of the people that makes it a horrible place to post.

Kyuu
Aug 14, 2006, 01:46 AM
On 2006-08-13 22:53, Sev wrote:

People just like to flame.Rule #1 of the internet.



Myself included as one of the people that makes it a horrible place to post.Nah. Well, maybe. But in a good way. >.>

Saner
Aug 14, 2006, 02:26 AM
is this some sort of inferiority complex? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

in the end no one's going to care who chooses what. but if some people continue to glare and debate at the 'unbalanced' stats, then that's their choice. A needless headache, really. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

KylePhoenix
Aug 14, 2006, 07:38 AM
I'm not going to a be a Newman.

Good. Theres always one class that is favoured in RPGs and it was Night Elves in WoW (Just because the girls were hot -_-) So it's a good thing It's not going to be Newmans here.

Zarbolord
Aug 14, 2006, 07:48 AM
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not going to a be a Newman.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Good. Theres always one class that is favoured in RPGs and it was Night Elves in WoW (Just because the girls were hot -_-) So it's a good thing It's not going to be Newmans here.


You must have seen too many of them. The players on WoW have kinda balanced it out, also you might have been playing on a time or certain servers that the night elves use. Newmen are cool though, but I'm sure that it's gonna be more a gender thing than race. I fear that the number of newearls will be quite high...

Saner
Aug 14, 2006, 07:56 AM
I think Beasts are going be quite high in numbers. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

Those super sayian fans are definitely going to choose that race since the transformation thing is similiar. all they have to do is make a blonde beast and choose yellow nanoblast type. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

we shouldn't underestimate Humans though. in all games like these, they are everywhere. besides its the only race that matches the description of those Sephiroth fans. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif

Alisha
Aug 14, 2006, 08:40 AM
im going to be beast female but dont kid yourself its not because of the stats. nanoblast is awesome. its so totally altered beast like. thats why i'm hoping theres other nanoblast forms.

Saner
Aug 14, 2006, 09:14 AM
yes Nanoblast is definitely a sight to behold! I wouldn't hope for more incarnations though aside from color differences, it is a beast race after all, not a changeling. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

besides how would the Altered Beast hero feel if someone else could transform into various species too? http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

but who knows what they have planned.

KylePhoenix
Aug 14, 2006, 10:01 AM
On 2006-08-14 05:48, Zarbolord wrote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not going to a be a Newman.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Good. Theres always one class that is favoured in RPGs and it was Night Elves in WoW (Just because the girls were hot -_-) So it's a good thing It's not going to be Newmans here.


You must have seen too many of them. The players on WoW have kinda balanced it out, also you might have been playing on a time or certain servers that the night elves use. Newmen are cool though, but I'm sure that it's gonna be more a gender thing than race. I fear that the number of newearls will be quite high...



That probably explains it.

PSO players seemed to have it pretty balanced on the Brit servers too. Too many people called "Goku" for my liking though.