The harder online modes suck

[GaijinPUnch]

Anyone else finding the payoff for doing the "B" and "A" missions not worth it, at all? The monsters level are twice as high. They take twice as long to kill, take off more damage, and don't give anywhere close to double the points. It's like a 30% increase.

[Polly]

I was a little disappointed when I saw B Rank missions giving out a slight bit more exp than the C ranked ones. It's clear they want this game to be a bit more of a grind than PSO was, which I guess is good and bad depending on how you look at it.

At first the grind kinda got to me because it's one of the reasons I can't stand MMOs, but since I enjoy PSU's gameplay way more than any MMO I've ever played it doesn't really seem as bad.

[McLaughlin]

Isn't that the point of a higher difficulty?

If everything doubled including exp, you'd be playing Normal mode with better items.

[GaijinPUnch]

Isn't that the point of a higher difficulty?

High risk, high return. Not in this case anyway. Just makes it seem like the upper levels are going to be painful to get to.

[Kindaichi]

Thats stupid ><....I dont want double xp but a slight xp boost?

[McLaughlin]

Well, look at it this way.

Monster does more damage? You have more HP.
Monster has more DFP? You have more ATP/better weapons.

I don't see how playing tit for tat should earn you an exponential boost in exp.

[Ether]

Except for the fact that the exp you need to level goes up continually

Its somewhat silly getting 8 exp for a kill in linear line (level 5 enemy) and 12 exp for a tagged enemy in B-rank forest (level 20 enemy)

The numbers might not be exact, but it really feels like soloing is more efficient way to level at times, and that shouldn't be since this is a party based game

[peenk]

On 2006-09-09 20:53, GaijinPUnch wrote:
Anyone else finding the payoff for doing the "B" and "A" missions not worth it, at all? The monsters level are twice as high. They take twice as long to kill, take off more damage, and don't give anywhere close to double the points. It's like a 30% increase.


Yeah but wouldntt high lvl mob give a better chance to find better items? Lets say rares.
At least it was in PSO. You wouldnt be running 'normal' runs back on PSO to get rares.

[Cross]

Yeah, so far it seems like a waste to bother with a lot of B-Rank stuff. The only thing I can really say for it is that the enemies at least survive long enough that you can make sure that you tag everything in the room before they die if you're playing in a party, but in terms of time:reward, everything is still much slower for me than soloing C-Rank Rafon Relics.

I wish experience had been done based on how your level compares to the enemy's level. I like playing high-level areas for the challenge, but it takes a lot longer to actually score kills and you get the same value of experience whether you're fifteen levels below the area or ten levels higher.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cross on 2006-09-09 21:22 ]</font>

[McLaughlin]

On 2006-09-09 21:12, Ether wrote:
Except for the fact that the exp you need to level goes up continually

Its somewhat silly getting 8 exp for a kill in linear line (level 5 enemy) and 12 exp for a tagged enemy in B-rank forest (level 20 enemy)

The numbers might not be exact, but it really feels like soloing is more efficient way to level at times, and that shouldn't be since this is a party based game



That's a 50% increase. Not something to be laughed at. Though, I'm not familiar with PSU's difficulties, so admittedly I can't really discern between the difficulty levels, or tell if that's substantial or not.

Either way, be glad you aren't FORCED to kill things twice your level to gain worth while exp, or any exp at all >_>

[DizzyDi]

On 2006-09-09 21:26, Zeta wrote:


On 2006-09-09 21:12, Ether wrote:
Except for the fact that the exp you need to level goes up continually

Its somewhat silly getting 8 exp for a kill in linear line (level 5 enemy) and 12 exp for a tagged enemy in B-rank forest (level 20 enemy)

The numbers might not be exact, but it really feels like soloing is more efficient way to level at times, and that shouldn't be since this is a party based game



That's a 50% increase. Not something to be laughed at. Though, I'm not familiar with PSU's difficulties, so admittedly I can't really discern between the difficulty levels, or tell if that's substantial or not.

Either way, be glad you aren't FORCED to kill things twice your level to gain worth while exp, or any exp at all >_>



Zeta has a point. Right now the increase is small cause the exp is small. But maybe later when enemies start giving 100+ exp the increase will actually make a bigger difference.

[Cross]

On 2006-09-09 21:26, Zeta wrote:
That's a 50% increase. Not something to be laughed at. Though, I'm not familiar with PSU's difficulties, so admittedly I can't really discern between the difficulty levels, or tell if that's substantial or not.


The difference is that the 8 experience guy is a one-hit kill and can't do any damage to you, while the 12 experience one takes maybe 4-5+ hits to take down and can actually fight against you.

It's not so bad since it's way more fun to fight the stronger guys, but it's not particularly sound game design to make the fun things less rewarding than the boring stuff.

[Parn]

Well, from the way the game engine is designed, they seem to be able to set the XP values and scale enemy strength however they wish... and given their current system of trying to make the game last as long as possible and slowly feeding out pieces of what will eventually be a complete puzzle a year from now, I'm sure the higher rank missions for the stages released so far were done the way they are on purpose... give players a little more challenge, but not give them a ton of XP so that they'd jump to the game's current established level cap of 50 in such a short timeframe.

[Alisha]

no offence guys but that sounds a lot like pso. like hard ruins vs vhard forest was a pretty big jump. does the game not provide some other incentive to play on higher ranks?

[Killuminati]

On 2006-09-09 20:57, Triela wrote:
I was a little disappointed when I saw B Rank missions giving out a slight bit more exp than the C ranked ones. It's clear they want this game to be a bit more of a grind than PSO was, which I guess is good and bad depending on how you look at it.

At first the grind kinda got to me because it's one of the reasons I can't stand MMOs, but since I enjoy PSU's gameplay way more than any MMO I've ever played it doesn't really seem as bad.


I wouldn't mind it for that very reason to playing a game like FFXI or WoW it would just plain suck but playing PSU type fighting it's actually fun to level. I hoesntly don't care how long it takes it makes the game last longer and I'm sure as you get higher in level and find better weapons the mobs will become easier.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Killuminati on 2006-09-09 21:50 ]</font>

[Kyuu]

Are the drops better in higher ranked missions? If so, then that's incentive enough for me.

[Kupi]

Also, how does the class EXP reward for the missions compare? The monsters' EXP payouts may not be as high, but the ability to level up your class might be better.

[Tetsuro]

High risk, high return
You seem to have game difficulties confused with gambling, since when has any video game givin you a better reward for beating it on a harder difficulty? Maybe a higher score, but not a higher reward. I for one welcome this change from PSO, as I love a good challenge.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tetsuro on 2006-09-09 22:13 ]</font>

[uhawww]

As stated:
Better Drops + Better Mission Clear Bonuses = Higher Rank Missions FTW.

For example: An S Rank on the De Ragan (Parum Dragon) B Level Boss Mission will net you over 1k Meseta and double digit class xp, and some nice weapon drops. And with a group of 3 or 4, it's easy to do.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: uhawww on 2006-09-09 22:15 ]</font>

[LoneVandal]

It isn't really. Killing the C mode Dragon gets you 700mst + 8 JXP for an S-Rank, which is EASY and FAST to obtain. I'm talking like 15 minutes if you're in a good group, or 20 in a BAD one. Beating Linear Line part one in B mode gets you 5 JXP for a clear, 500 or so mst, and just sucks in general because the monsters take so much more effort to kill for a small boost in XP. It makes me dislike Ranger a lot because my gun runs out of ammo so fast, and I don't have the money to buy 4 Rifles and save up for my next actual upgrade.

[GaijinPUnch]

So far, there are almost no weapon drops. You might get a few (I've gotten a Staff, two Twin Brands, and two Brass Knuckles) and I've done a fair bit of B-Rank play. I think you can get any of those in a C-Ranked mission as well, FYI.

[uhawww]

I think you can get any of those in a C-Ranked mission as well, FYI.



Odd, in most of my tenure doing C rank missions, I've seen like, no weapons drop at all...
Either that or I'm just slow to the pick em up...

[Chaobo99]

That kinda stinks...they have brands? Do they have Auto Guns?

[mike23z]

indead i agree like 100% percent with uhawww



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: mike23z on 2006-09-09 22:24 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: mike23z on 2006-09-09 22:25 ]</font>

[FOnewearl-Lina]

I seem to get a weapon drop every 2-3 runs, and I've gotten the same weapons types Punch has gotten in C-rank runs...

[Tekershee]

I started doing Relics B mission and gained like 20k meseta in about 2 hours! It certainly went up a lot faster than if I did Relics C or Dragon C etc.

[Kyuu]

On 2006-09-09 22:17, Chaobo99 wrote:

That kinda stinks...they have brands? Do they have Auto Guns?
Try not to think too much in terms of PSO. PSU is it's own game. There are certainly better versions of weapons, but there are also elemental blades (which determine the color of the blade now, rather than the weapon's "tier"). Not to mention three different weapons manufacturers, each of which produces different versions of the same weapons with their own strengths and weaknesses.

Anyways, I personally would prefer B-rank, even if it is perhaps a bit less efficient. Greater challenge is good, and seeing bigger numbers at the end of the mission is good. And I'd wager a fair amount of meseta that you have a better chance of finding rares in higher-ranked missions.

[Diablohead]

Just think, you also upgrade youre photon arts by using them as you earn exp and get more then 1 hit kills, and drops are probably better. Makes it worthwhile.

[Wubbie]

Everyone complaining about B-Rank being "not worth it..." Remember the difference in item drops... You're getting a big upgrade on drop percentages which you can sell for meseta, or help make your character better... So in a sense, you're not losing much at all...

[Rubesahl]

I honestly do not mind at all having the game being more difficult. If we were talking about a MMORPG I'd be complaining when I don't get my rewards right. In the case of Guild Wars and now PSU, I like playing just for the fun of it. Leveling and getting money is important but the new improved battle system make things VERY fun. Not to mention the stages and the monster AI is also a great improvement. Anyways, I've always been in a slow pace in online games so maybe that's why I don't mind PSU's system lol

[Ryoga4523]

Someone had mentioned VH forest vs H ruins... they are absolutely corret. The exp and drops in H ruins were much better, and easier, then doing VH forest. people should really stop complaining, and just enjoy the fact that they are playing an excellent game. Besides that, how many ppl are actually going to stick with the JP version of the game who are playing? So just play and have fun, because if you are getting the US version, you are going to be starting all over again.

[Tystys]

Yeah, I agree. Ryoga put it pretty well, XD

[McLaughlin]

On 2006-09-10 14:07, Ryoga4523 wrote:
Someone had mentioned VH forest vs H ruins... they are absolutely corret. The exp and drops in H ruins were much better, and easier, then doing VH forest. people should really stop complaining, and just enjoy the fact that they are playing an excellent game. Besides that, how many ppl are actually going to stick with the JP version of the game who are playing? So just play and have fun, because if you are getting the US version, you are going to be starting all over again.



I'm going to go ahead and call that bullshit.

You cannot tell me, with a straight face, that the time/exp ratio was better in Hard Ruins than in Very Hard Forest. To say the Hard mode Drops were better than Very Hard drops is just idiocy. Maybe in terms of probabability, but not in terms of actual usefulness.

[ecchichuu]

I've seen a similar thread about 'worthless B missions' on Japanese boards so this seems like a legitimate problem. If most of the players are just plowing through C missions over and over instead of playing B missions, that definitely indicates some sort of balancing problem. I've also read that in C missions Forces just use handgun to tag enemies for exp because the RA and HU kill things too fast...

If any of this stuff is true, then Sonic Team needs to rebalance the game so that players want to do missions that are actually appropriate for their current level.

[watashiwa]

On 2006-09-10 15:30, ecchichuu wrote:
I've also read that in C missions Forces just use handgun to tag enemies for exp because the RA and HU kill things too fast...


Dunno about that.. some force spells take some time to cast, but.. if anything.. forces kill stuff faster than RA and HUs. =

[Nai_Calus]

Actually, in PSO, Forest stuff on the next level up *is* worse than Ruins stuff on the previous one. Drops-wise, anyway, outside of rares. VHard Ruins is a better way to make money selling crap than Ult Forest is, though if your Ult Forest has any decent drops you'll probably want to spend time there instead. (And there is no meseta problem in PSO that cannot be solved by a few minutes in Ult Ruins and selling the armors/shields you picked up, anyway, speaking as someone who goes through Trifluids like mad. >_> )

[Cross]

On 2006-09-10 15:33, watashiwa wrote:
Dunno about that.. some force spells take some time to cast, but.. if anything.. forces kill stuff faster than RA and HUs. =


They kill things faster, but they don't tag things faster. As a Force, even if you can kill two enemies in ten seconds, there's probably 6-8 enemies in the room, and in a group of 4+ players, a lot of enemies might not live that long.
Playing a Force without a gun is a game of constantly scrambling to hit everything in the room if you're playing in an area that's fairly weak compared to your characters. It's not so bad in a stronger area, but (like the thread is about) the stronger areas generally aren't rewarding enough until you get strong enough that they are the easy areas.

Edit: Not to mention that Forces can 'miss' a lot easier than Hunters and Rangers, since in the time it takes to cast a tech, a Hunter can knock an enemy across the room and out of range with a PA, and if you're using a projectile tech, they move pretty slowly.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cross on 2006-09-10 17:08 ]</font>

[Ether]

I did some testing in Linear Line

lvl 1 dimenian - 4 exp (70 hp)
lvl 1 penguin - 2 exp (50 hp)

lvl 5 dimenian - 8 exp (aprox 120 hp)
lvl 5 penguin - 4 exp (aprox 100 hp)

lvl 20 dimenian - 23 exp
lvl 20 penguin - 13 exp (aprox 825 hp)

lvl 25 dimenian- 28 exp
lvl 25 penguin - 16 exp

lvl 30 dimenian - 33 exp
lvl 30 penguin - 19 exp (aprox 1600 hp)

The harder difficulties are totally worth it. The things that bugs me the most though is that the enemy HPs are pretty much the only thing that changes. Sure they hit a little bit harder, and might have higher evade, but the only big change is their staggering HP. They have the exact same defense, magic defense, and movement speed. The last one is really killer, since it was a major difference between difficulties in PSO. Imagine monsters in ult moving at the crawl they do in normal mode, thats what A-Rank linear line is like

Edit: Forgot to mention, these are exp values for getting the killing blow. You only get 66% or so exp for tagging an enemy now, so if you're doing the harder stages in a full group you can count on getting even less exp

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ether on 2006-09-10 18:42 ]</font>

[GaijinPUnch]

how many ppl are actually going to stick with the JP version of the game who are playing?

Not that it's relevant in the least, but I will stay on JP. Thus, I will keep w/ my complaining I guess.



if anything.. forces kill stuff faster than RA and HUs. =

Maybe on the easier missions. I jumped in a Relics game today w/ a Ranger and a Force. Both about the same level as me. When we finished, one of them said, "It's much easier with a hunter in here". At this point, there aren't a lot of techs that do high damage to multiple enemies, so the Force characters get screwed.


but the only big change is their staggering HP.

I will have to do some tests. I recall doing much less damage w/ the same weapons against higher level monsters. Even so... that still doesn't make it "worth it". Remember, you have to pay to replenish your Photon Arts...something that you rely on against the tough guys.

If you can make more money and experience solo-ing an easier level than a hard one, what do you think most people are going to do? I don't scour for other games, but I notice a LOT of single-player games, and only 1 or 2 at any given time of 3+ players.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: GaijinPUnch on 2006-09-10 20:50 ]</font>

[Nika]

When you consider on low - mid LV, you will think better play rank C
but once you high LV,you will think better play rank B-A , this is the same as no LV 100 want to play forrest in normal mode. it is too easy!!
And compare money and exp, for money, solo will get faster. for exp,team will get faster

[GaijinPUnch]

Huh? I don't mean to be a dick, but any chance we can get those words in order?

[watashiwa]

I understood Nika just fine.. He said if you're lower or middle leveled, it's better to play rank C... When you're higher leveled, you'll more than likely want to play rank B or A for the challenge.

As your level increases, soloing the harder areas will become faster, as will the amount of money and exp you gain. (Especially in team mode..)

His words are pretty true too. We ran through Dragon B rank repeatedly today using the mission cancel trick and S-Ranked it a bunch of times pretty fast. You get 1,050 Meseta every time you S-Rank it.

Although, not all of my money came from this mission alone today, I went from about 3k to 19k at the end of the day, and that includes spending 8,600 on a pair of B rank dual guns.

Also went from level 17 to 23..

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: watashiwa on 2006-09-10 22:34 ]</font>

[Cross]

On 2006-09-10 18:38, Ether wrote:
Imagine monsters in ult moving at the crawl they do in normal mode, thats what A-Rank linear line is like


Actually, it's not too apparent with the Dimenian-alikes or the little teddybear things, but the quadruped enemies in Linear Line are way faster as you go up in difficulty. On C-Rank you can basically outrun them, but on A-Rank if you get charged, they're usually fast enough that you can't even strafe out of the way; you actually have to run to the side.

After playing a bit more on the higher difficulties (up to A-Rank in Linear Line, and I think B-Rank in Hakura), I think that Experience is better on higher difficulties if you're in a party (or if you're obscenely high leveled), but getting meseta is still really, really bad compared to C-Rank, considering the time it takes to kill things.

[Sev]

In my extremely unprofessional opinion. I thiink as far as gaining money goes, it would probably always be easier to get it by soloing. You could farm in groups for speciffic items, but if you just wanna make cash, it's easier to get it solo.

[Nodachi]

On 2006-09-09 21:43, Alisha wrote:
no offence guys but that sounds a lot like pso. like hard ruins vs vhard forest was a pretty big jump. does the game not provide some other incentive to play on higher ranks?



Pretty much what I was thinking too.

I understand the OP's grief from what I've read, no doubt. But I'm thinking it's just one of those 'struggle' levels. Kind of where you're too high for your previous routine for decent exp but not quite of level to maxamize the difference of the higher tier difficulty. I've come accross that in most RPGs and all MMOs I've ever played.

[Authenticate]

Bring on them higher level monsters, boyee. I'll play on the highest difficulty setting I can handle at all times. People concerned about making meseta or EXP as fast as possible will only burn themselves out on the game that much faster. I know this, because I obviously have a Ph.D in psychiatry even though I've never gone to college.

[Jife_Jifremok]

Do the bosses give any exp? Is their increased difficulty worth their increase in exp, money, etc if any?

[watashiwa]

That's kind of what Parn and I were talking about today.. how a lot of people are simply playing to max out.. whereas we're just playing to play.

I could be happy struggling like hell or running people through easy levels all day, as long as we're all having fun.

[Kurenaii]

I think that's kind of the point, I mean.. I haven't played PSU yet, so I really wouldn't know. But even if the monsters are higher level, harder to kill, hit for more HP etc., I think it'd be fun, but challenging at the same time.

[GaijinPUnch]

I think it'd be fun, but challenging at the same time.

I know I will get caned for this, but...

It's not really "challenging". Yeah, it can be tough, but for the most part, the only thing RPGs require is time and patience. RPGs (online or off) are just not a challenging genre. There's not one that requires ninja like skill. With very little exception, the only challenging genre left is the shooting genre (the real one, not FPS). Watch this (http://www.super-play.co.uk/index.php?superplay=187) and be amazed. I own this game, and can't even get close to this bastard, let alone what this guy pulls off. On that note, while it's fine for some, I don't want my online button mashing games to be too hard. In fact, I'm playing PSU to take a break from games like the one above. O_O



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: GaijinPUnch on 2006-09-11 05:57 ]</font>

[HC82]

On 2006-09-10 22:32, watashiwa wrote:
His words are pretty true too. We ran through Dragon B rank repeatedly today using the mission cancel trick and S-Ranked it a bunch of times pretty fast.



Mision Cancel Trick?


Anywho, I think the problem is the lack of a smooth transition toward the middle ground with the current quest set up, and the huge ass parties combined with stingy meseta drops.

I can totally understand why someone would want to solo an earlier stage and snag all the exp and items for themselves, as apposed to having it split 6 ways and bust their balls for exp.

On that other end, this is just the beginning of everything, and once a player gets stronger, the higher ranks become a lot of viable with a party avaliable.

[watashiwa]

On 2006-09-11 09:39, HC82 wrote:
Mision Cancel Trick?


After you finish off the dragon and everybody collects the reward, the party leader goes into the leader options and cancels the mission. This returns you to the first Parum intermission lobby so you can start the quest again right away. (Without having to go through the first Parum Raffon mission..)

[Saner]

but doesnt cancelling the mission miss out on Ranking meseta/class level/rewards?

[watashiwa]

I just said "After you finish the dragon and everybody collects the reward". You can collect the reward as soon as the Dragon is defeated. After you get the reward (meseta and class exp), instead of activating the crystal to return to the lobby, the leader cancels the mission.