Statistics and Class comparisons (Cleaned up, Extended Class

[Itsuki]

Cleaned up, introduction:

What this is meant for: This is meant to give a general idea to the strengths and weakness of classes, and describe in actual numbers the differences rather than just using vague terms. A difference may be "significant" to one person, but not to another. Its all relative.

What this is not meant for: This is not meant to be the end all guide for what is better than what. There are other advantages involved and some of the differences really aren't noticable.

You have to also keep in mind the different other things that effect your stats. This does not take into account class bonuses and equipment. Both of these make the practical differences in stats lower than the charts make it appear.

How to interput the data: Everything here follows this basic forumal:
B = Imaginary Base Stats
R = Race Modifier
G = Gender Modifier
C = Class modifier

Your Stat = B * R * G * C + class level bonuses + offsets

Now, there are two ways to interprut this.

1) You can see approximately how much weaker you will be from one class to another. And if there are any benefits in it.
2) You can see what your stats would be if use the ratios between your race/class and the race/class you're going to. Or the difference another person of equivalent level would be.

Additional information: Leveling in PSU isn't linear, although its close to it. The difference from level 1 to 10 is close to the difference between 51 and 60. Offline this stop at a "sweet spot", which is level 75. Online it is relatively unknown.

Ok, down to the dirty parts:

Standard Classes

-------Class differences------
http://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineClassRatios.png
* the 210% tap is an estimate. It may be 200% but the rounding is throwing it off.
* END/STA was left off due to the fact that its relatively static when leveling up and has relatively no difference between races/classes.

-------Race differences------
http://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineRRatios.png
* Some of these differences look substantial, but its class that has the real difference. The main differences in practice are only in ATA, TAP, and EVA.
* END/STA and MST were left off because the numbers were too low to get accurate differences. The MST differences are similar to the TAP differences.

-------Gender differences------
http://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineGRatios.png
* In practice these have almost no effect. 5% is almost nothing, after class and equipment are added in, these become nearly non-existant.

-------Stat by stat rankings------
These are actually displayed further down in the thread, but here they are for refernece:
HP Tier List (http://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineHPTierList.png)
ATP Tier List (http://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineATPTierList.png)
ATA Tier List (http://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineATATierList.png)
TAP Tier List (http://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineTAPTierList.png)
DEF Tier List (http://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineDEFTierList.png)
EVA Tier List (http://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineEVATierList.png)

Ok, now, the first three classes are very regular. Infact, you could actually use these numbers to calculate your stats, my numbers had a standard deviation of like .3%, I mean, it was really low. The numbers wouldn't be off by more than 1 point, maybe 2 at extremes.

Extended Classes

But, it wasn't the same for extended classes. Not entirely atleast. Forte classes and Protransers both followed this trend. But, the Hybrid classes were different. Infact, what is really going on, is that the hybrid classes are offset from the rest of the stats, and then have slightly higher growth rates. What does this mean?

Notes for Hybrid classes
- Since they are offset, some stats start out lower and then grow higher, so these can not be used to calculate stats.
- Differences are mainly apparent in HP, ATP, and TAP, but can appear in all stats.
- Because of a difference, as you approach level 1 you should subtract 5, and as you approach level 100 you should add 5.
- Ex. If I wrote 130, a level 10 may experience 125%, while a level 60 might experience say... 132%.
- If I wrote 105 for a stats, that generally means that at below level 20 and below the stats are equal or within 1%, but at level 50, there was a noticable difference (atleast 3-4%)
- Also, keep in mind that each class will gain class bonuses differently. A Guntecher for example gains mainly ATA, and minimal TAP, so as levels go on, its different in TAP may infact increase.
- Protransers are also broken. This just shows their "initial stats". After getting to job level 10, a protranser at level 60 will practically double their HP and ATA, and gain in the range of 30% in most other stats. They still probably won't have the ATP or ATA to equip S-rank weapons even if they were allowed to, but its a pretty significant difference.

Notes on how these stats were acquired:
I used stats for atleast 2 people in each of: approximately level 10, approximately level 30, and approximately level 50.

All of the higher level characters had atleast 1 of the 3 basic classes at level 1, and the stats for the other two basic classes were determined using my old numbers. This would throw off my final numbers by no more than 1%, but perfect accuracy wasn't obtainable due to the hybrid class offset, so this is negligable.

I sorted them by class type and derivatives of those classes. I figured this would be easier for you to compare your actual information to.

------Hunter Comparisons------
http://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineHURatios.png

------Ranger Comparisons------
http://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineRARatios.png

------Force Comparisons------
http://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineFORatios.png

Extra ofline information:
Human male growth chart (http://www.mirakuru.us/HUMale.jpg)


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-10-27 12:20 ]</font>

[Saiffy]

Are we even sure that extra mode and online mode use the same stats? I'm not trying to debunk your work, but with all the differences already, it wouldn't surprise me too much.

And looking at it, males and females have the same stats. I thought females had higher EVP, MST and TAP, and males had higher ATP, ATA and DFP?

[Clyde]

Actually I think the Females have higher DFP, EVP, MST, and TAP while the males get higher HP, ATP and ATA.

[Kaply]

Let me get this straight, what your findings suggest is that a character's stat gain is dependant upon the job class? I though the stat gains from character levels would be based upon your race and the stat gains from job levels would be based upon the job, then you add the two together to get the stats of the character at present.

[Zarbolord]

Yeah, weren't the percs just a boost to make your character more efficient with that job? Like, separate stats, that you can add/take away by changing jobs.

[Kyuu]

Thanks for taking the time to make these charts, Itsuki. I'd like to point out one thing though: your male newman and female newman stats are exactly the same. So I'm assuming it was a mistake, since I thought the different genders at least started out with different stats, and should have slightly different growth, too.

[Clyde]

I don't think this chart will work unless you can figure out the modifier that a class level gives or takes away.

[Laranas]

I think each character has base stats with each job (and player level) that is built on depending on the job's level. I don't think the current job has any effect on what stats you gain when you level.

[DamonKatu]

Wow someone did their homework. Im amazed! The charts just blows my mind away. Their are big differences in the race, gender, and jobs that seems very...well...Lits just say that this is a good sorce of information.

[Clyde]

So a class is more of a bonus to already existent stats ( kind of like what units were in PSO) ex. + 5 to race HP +10 race ATP at level Hunter level1 and + 15 race HP +30 race ATP at Hunter level 3 like that?

[Kaply]

I think it's more appropriate to think of them as mags since they give multiple different stat bonuses, but they also dictate what weapons you could use.

[Clyde]

Did you really have to include the ranks thing? Right now I am trying to just understand the Stat aspect of classes.

[hiraisho]

What about the Cast and Beast races?

[kyori]

Genders have no difference in stat whatsoever in PSU, only race/job does.

[TheStoicOne]

uhhh... why are the male and female hunters stats the sam eon the chart?

[Clyde]

Well that changes things up a bit then.

[Clyde]

Are you saying that for a fact or based on the chart kyori?

[kyori]

Fact

[Ether]

Extra mode stats are worthless.

Extra HUmar:
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6194/extramz4.jpg

Extra HUmarl:
http://img414.imageshack.us/img414/6446/extrafna1.jpg

The extra mode stats are indeed exactly the same for each gender

Online HUmar:
http://img414.imageshack.us/img414/3050/onlineih8.jpg

Online HUmarl:
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/7162/onlineful1.jpg

Completely different from the extra mode stats, and each other




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ether on 2006-10-22 20:56 ]</font>

[kyori]

Ho ho, so it was changed since then, my apoligies

[Laranas]

I think PSOWorld's own guides has the stat differences posted.

[TheStoicOne]

Yes, because I remember writing them down some months ago.

[Itsuki]

Either way, understanding how the stats react in extra mode can help you understand how you will level online until full online charts are made. Of course, if anyone wants to screenshot every time they level online, that would probably be helpfull for the psupedia. The only reason I'm doing this is because they're really easily obtainable (literally, it takes longer to make the character and go linear line than to get all the stats), and the comparisons between them will likely be the same online. For example, the strengths and weaknesses of a Beast hunter compared to a cast hunter would likely be the same or quite similar online. The percentages and ratios are the important ones, not the actual raw numbers.

Anyways, I was going to get atleast a few numbers for online characters, if anyone else wants to contribute, PM-ing me with screenshots would be lovely. So I'll have more concrete information later.

[Laranas]

I was planning on vastly updating psupedia as well, but since I'm currently playing only Story and Extra until the US servers are up (I'll be buying the US version as well) I can't trust any info that's there.

[TheStoicOne]

HERE YA GO!! *These stats were taken during the beta*

MALE
HUNTER---Hp--ATP--ATA--TAP--DFP--EVP--MST--END
Human---173---41---18---22---12---12----5---20
Numan---157---35---19---29---12---13----6---20
Cast----193---43---21---13---15----9----3---20
Beast---216---48---15---16---13---11----3---20
RANGER
Human----92---30---40---22----5---18----5---22
Numan----84---26---42---29----5---18----6---22
Cast----108---33---47---13----7---13----3---23
Beast---112---35---33---16----6---16----4---22
FORCE
Human----80---24---18---51----4---15----9---20
Numan----77---22---20---70----5---17---11---21
Cast-----90---25---21---30----6---11----6---20
Beast----98---28---15---36----5---13----7---20

FEMALE
HUNTER---Hp--ATP--ATA--TAP--DFP--EVP--MST--END
Human---166---39---18---23---13---13----5---22
Numan---151---33---18---30---12---14----6---22
Cast----189---42---20---14---15---10----3---22
Beast---205---46---15---17---13---12----4---22
RANGER
Human----88---29---38---23----6---18----5---24
Numan----80---24---40---30----5---19----7---24
Cast----105---33---45---14----7---14----4---25
Beast---106---33---31---16----6---16----4---24
FORCE
Human----77---23---18---53----5---16----9---22
Numan----74---20---19---72----5---17---12---23
Cast-----88---25---20---32----6---12----7---22
Beast----93---27---14---38----5---14----8---22

[Kyuu]

So the two genders do still have different stats online, right? Extra mode seems to be a completely different animal.

[TheStoicOne]

that is correct.

[Itsuki]

Extra mode is a different animal, because it was designed to be played for the most part solo. But, as I said before, the basic game mechanics are the same, and all the stats are calculated through the same formulas. The coefficients and such are just changed.

[Itsuki]

More information: Heres the online numbers.

I'm not posting my raw numbers, but after pooling numbers from a few people and using numbers gathered by myself. Lets just say my spreadsheet is huge. But anyways, Online ratios for classes are the same for all races, and they are this:
http://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineClassRatios.png
Now, 210% MST for forces is a real estimate. All the others are pretty definate. The numbers for MST were pretty small, so it made comparing them hard. It may be because decimals were being cut off more often than not for my numbers, and its actually 200%, but my numbers all averaged it out to being 210%. END was left out because I can't tell if it follows the same formulas since it only actually goes up like once every 10 levels. Hell, offline it didn't even go up at all.

Also, pulling from those numbers and even more numbers gathered from other people, It appears races are ratios and genders are ratios. So, you get these stats for race / gender combinations:
http://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineRRatios.png
http://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineGRatios.png
END was left off for the same reason, and MST was left off because the numbers were just too small to get an acurate comparison. Males and Females are statistically not all that different. But the races are quite different. I'll also note that human and newman appear to have higher stat percent totals. Meaning the sum of all growth is greater than cast/beast. But these aren't necessarily giving humans/newmans an advantage stat wise, and they're not necessarily making as big of a difference as SUVs and such.

So basically, it appears that all characters grow the same, and their "base stats" are the same, but then these base stats are multiplied by modifiers, like this:
Total stat / Stat displayed in status window = (Base stat * Race modifier * Gender modifier * Class modifier) + Class level bonuses

Now you may be asking why I tagged on class level bonuses and why its a added and not multiplied. It appears that leveling the class gives a static bonus that is the same for all classes. Truly this bonus isn't that big though. For example, each level of hunter appears to give +10hp per level, +5 atp every other level, +5 dfp every other level, and some ATA and EVA at a lower amount. But this also appears to be an increasing amount with your class level. Level 1-5 appears to give one bonus, 6-10 another higher amount, etc. Atleast thats my guess for now, I'd have to see more numbers to be sure.

So lets look at an example spread for ATP

ATP R R+G HU RA FO
HM 100% 100% 133% 100% 80%
HF 100% 95% 126% 95% 76%
NM 85% 85% 113% 85% 68%
NF 85% 81% 107% 81% 65%
CM 110% 110% 146% 110% 88%
CF 110% 105% 139% 105% 84%
BM 115% 115% 153% 115% 92%
BF 115% 109% 145% 109% 87%
And for TAP

TAP R R+G HU RA FO
HM 100% 100% 100% 116% 350%
HF 100% 105% 105% 122% 368%
NM 120% 120% 120% 139% 420%
NF 120% 126% 126% 146% 441%
CM 50% 50% 50% 58% 175%
CF 50% 53% 53% 61% 184%
BM 60% 60% 60% 70% 210%
BF 60% 63% 63% 73% 221%
- R stands for "With race modifier"
- R+G stands for "With race and gender modifiers". This is the "standard". Within each class, the order of highest to lowest remains the same as this column since the class columns are multipled by it.

Discuss.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-09-17 14:53 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-09-17 14:54 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-09-18 18:11 ]</font>

[Tycho]

Have you taken into account class levels?
By the way, it's a bit confusing how you chose different classes to be '100%' at certain stats without just consistently choosing the lowest/highest one. o_O;

[Itsuki]

Ya, I do realize its a bit confusing. Those actually have to do with my original date. At various points in the leveling, in certain areas the numbers kind of leveled off to very convient points at those places. The was mainly due to the offline data, but I used it for the online data aswell since it made the numbers rather convienent for class ratios. Basically I aimed for making "nice fractions". 150% is obviously 3/2. 133% is obviously 4/3. 116% is obviously 7/6. ETC. While on the other hand, if I had made HU the base for DEF for example, the ratios would have been very weird.

The only two that aren't male human hunter for the base number are ATP and DEF. Offline, level 75 appears to be a very key level. All the formuals offline appear to be based on the stats for a level 75 character. And its also good to note that offline, the stat growth takes a significant hit at level 75. Anyways, at level 75, ATP conviently becomes 500 for a ranger, it seemed like a good number to call the norm.

And I took class levels into account to an extent. As I said, they appear to be added on. In the actual charts, I used the ratios I got from level 1 characters reverse engineered on the stats I got from people with higher class levels, and it always appeared to give very solid numbers. Like for example, the 10hp per class level for hunters (which only worked for class level 5 and below). Class level 6+ it got a bit weird.

[Itsuki]

More statistics and comparisons yay. I hate double posting, but people just seem to be discussing this information in other threads and not here T_T Oh well, for a bump and an edit.

Changes:
- Pictures enlarged and cleaned up. Made a bit easire to read.
- Force MST changed from 210% to 200%. After more information was gathered, I figured the "added 1 MST" was just an anomoly.
- Female DEF changed from 100% to 105%. I knew females had higher def, but the thing was, male and female def was the same in the majority of my stats going up to level 10. It wasn't until I got some level 30-ish stats to compare that I could definately change it.

Applying the stats together I did some teir lists. Color coded a bit to try to make trends more apparent.
http://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineHPTierList.pnghttp://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineATPTierList.png

http://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineATATierList.pnghttp://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineTAPTierList.png

http://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineDEFTierList.pnghttp://www.mirakuru.us/PSU/OnlineEVATierList.png

Now theres no question as to what has more of a stat. Just look at the lists.

Perhaps I'm just a number person, but I know this information is pretty significant to my choices. I'd think it'd be pretty significant to others aswell. But nobody posts any questions. T_T

Oh well, anyways some interesting trends I noticed:
- The TAP tier really lines up. This is expect since only forces can cast spells, so only force TAP matters. But I think its interesting how clean that list is.
- It appears humans and newmans are the evade classes. The EVA tier also lines up pretty nicely.
- Beast ATA really is abysmal, it crowds the bottom of the ATA list.
- HUnewearl is the only hunter not in the top tier for ATP. This is kinda sad. A male beast ranger has more HP, ATP, ATA, and DEF than a HUnewearl, making it argueably better at being a hunter than a HUnewearl. Just thought it was amusing.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-09-18 18:37 ]</font>

[DurakkenX]

to put it in lamense terms

After a bit of discusion i think it was decided that there is no "base" per say per race/class/etc but rather there is 1 set of base base stats that every character is based off and then a modifier is given dependant upon race/gender, char lvl, and job lvl for each one

so lets say the base HP for any character is 100. You choose cast as a race which gives you a x1.2 modifier. You then also choose hunter which gives you a natural x1.4 modifier and then have a lvl of 5 which gives you a x1.4 modifier and then you add that together for a x2 modifier and end up with 200HP as your final stat.

Now let's say as a beast you get a x1.1 modifier intsead your HP will be 190.

This is what we are beginning to think how stats are derived rather than each class/lvl/race/etc having a so-called set stat boost.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DurakkenX on 2006-09-18 20:05 ]</font>

[Ether]

Its sad that Sega chose to distribute the stats in such a methodical way, rather than fine tuning it so every class had some advantage like they did in Episode 1&2. Right now there isn't much reason to play anything other than male beast, male cast, or female newman

The only way the game could possibly be balanced is if they flat out locked the force job from beast and casts, and denied them access to the HU/FO and RA/FO expert classes. Humans and newmans supposed advantage over cast and beast (as rangers and hunters) is their higher TAP, which is useless, and higher MST, which statistically is too small to notice

[Itsuki]

DurakkenX, I'm Akukame on IRC, Kesara in game. I'm the one on IRC that was asking for people's stats and starting the conversation about the "Base stats" thing.

And the methodical idea isn't quite that bad. When it comes down to it though, people will play what they want to. Male/Female are statistically basically the same. But the choices aren't quite that defined. And there are actually very few "bad" combinations. Like I would never recommend a newman hunter, and I wouldn't really recommend a cast force, and I wouldn't really recommend a beast ranger. But other than that, all the other combinations are statistically not that bad, and I think thats what matters. So for 4 races and 3 classes, make 12 combinations. There are 3 optimal, 3 horrible, and 6 fitting nicely in the middle.

And they sort of had to do this method. I believed that they probably did something like this as soon as they released the sheer number of classes there would be. I mean, 4 races that can choose between 3 base classes, 7 extended classes. Add in the male and female and you get 80 combinations? You can't have 80 distinctly different classes.

I mean, cast for RA and newman for FO seem quite defined. And truly, RAcast doesn't have very many disadvantages. But FO is a bit more open because FO newman have really low survivability, so humans really don't make that bad of FOs. And I think once support techs are added, you'll see more FOcast / FObeast. HU is really a tossup between cast and beast I think.

I play RAnewearl, which is definately not as good as a RAcast. It suffers from a huge ATP disadvantage, but its really not bad.

[Tycho]

Durakken wrote:
so lets say the base HP for any character is 100. You choose cast as a race which gives you a x1.2 modifier. You then also choose hunter which gives you a natural x1.4 modifier and then have a lvl of 5 which gives you a x1.4 modifier and then you add that together for a x2 modifier and end up with 200HP as your final stat.I find your mathematical capacity to be rather lacking.

@Itsuki: I'll try if I can play around with this in Extra Mode for a bit more, to find out more about these class levels, then check if I could confirm any claims online.

[Natrokos]

On 2006-09-15 12:21, kyori wrote:
Genders have no difference in stat whatsoever in PSU, only race/job does.



Lies. It has been said on many occassions that males have higher hp atp and ata and females have higher tap mst def eva and end. I could swear i've seen that chart before like two months ago.

[Itsuki]

Offline, gender has no difference. Kyori may have been confused by this at the time. Believe me, she knows better now.

Also, I'll update this for expert classes tonight if I can. Tomorrow at the latest.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-10-25 15:27 ]</font>

[Itsuki]

Bump and updated with extend class information. Cleaned up a couple days ago aswell.

[Nani-chan]

Incredibly amazing; Great work.