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View Full Version : Aggro management and PSU's monster AI.



Parn
Sep 23, 2006, 05:45 PM
No one's discussed this really, but I've been observing monster AI in this game, and one of the biggest changes over PSO's AI is that the game does have some semblence of an aggro system, something most MMORPG players are familiar with. Monsters no longer simply beeline to the nearest player like they did in PSO. When you approach a pack of monsters, by default, the closest player is usually targetted, but once players start damaging enemies, the monsters start changing targets. The switching of targets at first seemed to be based off of damage inflicted, but after more observation, I think making enemies flinch has a lot more to do with it.

Granted, there is no "provoke" or "taunt" ability, but I noticed in rank B missions, that rangers have a knack for making enemies flinch with ranged weaponry... melee hits from hunters do NOT make enemies flinch until the final hit in a combo. This was aggravating to me at first because you could never finish a full combo off on an enemy that's targetted you even if you maneuver to the rear unless you were willing to suck in some damage, but then I realized that this perhaps was done on purpose.

A ranger making an enemy flinch not only keeps the enemy from doing anything for a split moment with each gunshot, but also draws the attention of the enemy off the hunter and onto himself/herself, allowing for the hunter to unleash their attack from the enemy's rear-side without being pummeled. The final hit in the hunter's attack makes the enemy flinch, and that flinching alongside the combined damage seems to reset the monster aggro, and the monster generally turns around and retargets the hunter again.

This is just some quick observing from yours truly, and I'm still in the process of figuring more stuff out and how far off I am with all of this, but I thought it was worthy of mention, based on my initial interpretation of things. Thoughts?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Parn on 2006-09-23 15:49 ]</font>

peenk
Sep 23, 2006, 05:52 PM
YEAH! Ranger meat shields.
I can see it now!
But isnt there also a higher chance of doing critical if you hit enemy from behind? If it is indeed as you say it is good.
Problem is that it doesnt really matter because PSU mob is not like general mmorpg mob, meaning they wont last for the aggro to work that much. Bosses might be a different idea but PSU is a hack'n'slash button masher anyway so it doesnt change anything in regard to PSO play style.

mechatra
Sep 23, 2006, 06:00 PM
Thats actually a really interesting thought Parn.
I was actually thinking about something really close to that today.

Monsters not flinching from melee hits breaks my heart in B ranks.

Kurushii
Sep 23, 2006, 06:06 PM
Trust me there is plenty of times where you can group the mob into formations to kill easier. it isn't all run up and one-two shot all the time. I play with the mobs alot in PSU by drawing them into a formation line so I can take them all out with the least amount of pp wasted. You can think it is a button masher all you want but you'll be the one standing there with 0 pp and looking like a complete gimped fool. To Parn ya that flinch is a godsend sometimes. Doing a fast tech cast to get the monster to flinch then stepping back to get a chance to fire another cast before the monster gets to draw into it's own attack. I haven't seen a perfect way of tanking a monster so to say in PSU. For forces later on they could hold a mob back for a good awhile doing damu series techs but only damubarta really makes a wall to stop advances from coming.

phunk
Sep 23, 2006, 06:14 PM
So it seems like we'll be doing a lot of hate juggling.

Ryogen
Sep 23, 2006, 06:17 PM
well we'll see when it comes out. Thanks for the obevrsation though.

Cross
Sep 23, 2006, 07:45 PM
On 2006-09-23 15:45, Parn wrote:
Granted, there is no "provoke" or "taunt" ability,


Which is good, because "a game with taunting" and "a fun game" are diametrically opposed design decisions.

That said, I haven't really noticed much about the behaviour patterns of the enemies in PSU, but I've also spent probably the majority of my time playing solo. It's good if enemies are smart enough to somewhat react to what players are doing, but if you can use that to basically control the enemies, that's pretty bad design.

Neith
Sep 23, 2006, 08:08 PM
Sounds good, I like games with a hate 'meter'. It encourages teamwork (I remember in Lineage II, me and my brother's mages would cast at alternate times, so the unlucky enemy would run to me, then get hit by my brother's mage, and turn at him http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif )

I haven't really seen the damage comparisons in PSU- will Forces take a lot of monster hate from this, or will Hunters be able to keep hate on them?

To be honest though, I do like the PSO system (whether it's just nostalgic to me, I don't know http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif ), so I'd like to see some resemblence to it XP

RoninJoku
Sep 23, 2006, 08:11 PM
Though i hate most MMORPG's and all elements of them, aggro is one thing I would welcome into PSU... As long as it didn't get ridiculous to the point where the "tanks" would have to "taunt/provoke" every 5 seconds to keep the "DDs" and "Healers" from taking overly devastating blows.

Any shift in aggression seen from using resta?


~on a side note, I would like it if certain enemies used differing degrees of intelligence with regard to this matter... So a big/dangerous enemy might be more intelligent, and the general PSO-like monsters would work like-general PSO-like monsters http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: RoninJoku on 2006-09-23 18:13 ]</font>

Kurushii
Sep 23, 2006, 08:18 PM
Any shift in aggression seen from using resta?

Not that I have seen. They still come at full force at you.

Parn
Sep 23, 2006, 08:20 PM
Bear in mind, not all enemies are prone to the same behavior. The larger enemies, I still haven't quite figured out yet. Usually everyone gangs up on them and goes crazy, so it's hard to determine anything with them. I just know that the generic enemies, mostly the booma wannabes, seem to follow this basic aggro system.

Zaft
Sep 23, 2006, 08:56 PM
I do like how they made hate management in this game, makes it more realistic. Besides, it makes it so that sometimes your moving around and it doesn't get the seriously boring stand-in-one-spot-for-two-hours thing going on that most MMOs these days have.

By the way Parn, /wave (I remember you from KI, though I never posted on a thread with you I believe). Do you make those sigs yourself? I'm gonna need some way to put a subligar with my PSU character for my sig someday.

Parn
Sep 23, 2006, 09:00 PM
Indeed, I made a series of sigs for my friends, including the one I use. Was a lot of fun putting them together.

Kyon
Nov 28, 2006, 04:14 AM
This seems to be true. I recently changed my class from hunter to ranger and took out a shotgun. Sooner or later, every single enemy on screen was chasing me while the 3 hunters were busy chasing the monsters that were chasing me.

Blu_Swade
Nov 28, 2006, 04:26 AM
On 2006-11-28 01:14, Kyon wrote:
This seems to be true. I recently changed my class from hunter to ranger and took out a shotgun. Sooner or later, every single enemy on screen was chasing me while the 3 hunters were busy chasing the monsters that were chasing me.



XD I jus' pictured that in me head... Funny stuff...

ViciousXUSMC
Nov 28, 2006, 04:31 AM
they really really dont like force spells. I know that much. I pull hate from anybody in a few cast.

ImaGuy
Nov 28, 2006, 05:07 AM
I believe that mobs attack the closest player that has done damage to them...sometimes. That's probably why it seems they like to chase rangers and forces, since both types like to use AoE or fast shots right at the start of the fight. Hunters usually don't hit all of the mobs right off the bat, but rangers and forces can and do.

ViciousXUSMC
Nov 28, 2006, 05:18 AM
well I get my dps in what can i say http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif plus if i tag all the mobs right away it leaves me free to heal you.

-Shimarisu-
Nov 28, 2006, 05:29 AM
What this all basically boils down to for me is "WAH WAH THE MONSTERS KEEP DITCHING YOU AND ATTACKING ME! I CAN HOLD THEM OFF! STOP TELLING ME TO STOP STANDING IN THE CORRIDOR THERE'S NOWHERE LEFT TO RUN TO! THEY ALWAYS GO FOR THE RA! WHY DO THEY ALWAYS GO FOR THE RA?????"

Yeah but it kind of explains WHY he whines about it so much, but in a nutshell I'd already had this explained to me as "The monster AI in PSU is set to target the RA. No matter what, they will aim for the ranger. WAH WAH AND MY PP IS TOO LOW."

Are you're sure you're not wrong Parn, and they just target rangers to make them feel justified in their complaining?

AlphaMinotaux
Nov 28, 2006, 05:32 AM
from my experience it seems that mobs tend to attack whoever is closest that is doing damage to them. So its like a mix of how close you are from the mobs and how much damage u have done to it recently.

just my crazy thoughts on the subject...

-Ryuki-
Nov 28, 2006, 05:34 AM
I never really double-checked, but I THINK that they also attack the one who's doing the most damage.