My Weapon Speed Research

[-Break-]

Despite the few uses of this as expressed by other members of the board I went ahead with it anyway. The speed of the game is set to run as efficiently as possible, a stopwatch syncs up with the mission timer. My tests were done with Ethan, mashing the button as fast as humanly possible, the majority of my trials were within .2 of a second of each other, in conclusion I find this to be more accurate for a simple average swing time than trying to use the same timing for each trial. Plus different people may have different timing and such anyway. The measurement of time is from the initial button input to the final swing of said weapon combo. I took 50 trials for each weapon type eliminating and re-doing those that were inaccurate (like if I pushed the buttons too slowly or whatnot). These are my results, final hits per second are rounded to the nearest ten-thousandths, Rating is rounded to the nearest whole number for simplicity. Rating is from slow to fast and not rounded up.

Weapon Type.......Hits Per Second........Speed Rating
Saber......................2.0997................. ..4/10
Dagger....................2.9824.................. ..8/10
Claw......................2.4983.................. ...6/10
Sword...................1.2762................1/10 http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif
Spear.....................2.4162.................. .5/10
Knuckles.................3.0802................... .8/10
Double Saber.............3.0694..................8/10
Twin Saber...............2.4656..................6/10
Twin Daggers.............3.415...............10/10 http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif
Twin Claws ..............2.7637..................7/10


Delay is in seconds and is timed from the final swing of a combo to the first swing of a consecutive combo. Rating is from high delay to low delay and not rounded up.

Weapon Type.........Delay................Delay Rating
Saber...............1.018...................10/10 http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif
Dagger..............1.193...................9/10
Claw................1.253...................8/10
Sword...............2.112...................1/10 http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif
Spear...............1.424...................6/10
Knuckles............1.083...................9/10
Double Saber........1.619...................5/10
Twin Saber..........1.69....................4/10
Twin Daggers........1.104...................9/10
Twin Claws .........1.33....................7/10


For damage comparisons the weapon stats come from the online weapon section of this very site. All weapons are 9 Stars, aiming to use the highest A rank weapon of each category. Kubara Works weapons are not included in this so definitely take this one with a grain of salt; especially as not all of the weapons are from the same manufacturer and thus their stats may be inherently offset. Damage rating is from low ATP to high ATP and not rounded up.

Weapon Type.............ATP.......ATP Rating
Saber(GRM)..............595........7/10
Dagger(Yohmei)..........389........4/10
Claw(Yohmei)............595........7/10
Sword(GRM)..............730........10/10
Spear(Tenora)...........676........9/10
Knuckles(Tenora)........378........4/10
Double Saber(GRM).......335........3/10
Twin Saber(GRM).........338........3/10
Twin Daggers(Yohmei)....202.......1/10
Twin Claws(Yohmei)......386.......4/10


These are the final rankings of each weapon. They are derived from the average of their previous scores. Therefore, these results especially, must be taken with a heaping pile of salt. These are not weapon tiers and do not reflect the true usefulness of said weapons. Results are rounded to the first decimal place.

Weapon Type Final Ranking
Saber.............7/10
Dagger............7/10
Claw..............7/10
Sword.............4/10
Spear.............6.7/10
Knuckles..........7/10
Double Saber......5.3/10
Twin Saber........4.3/10
Twin Daggers......6.7/10
Twin Claws........6/10


And remember folks, in the end it all boils down to PA's and personal play style preferences. It's how you play that can gimp you, not which weapon type you use.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Break- on 2007-06-20 15:00 ]</font>

[Fleece]

Uhmm sword, and spear types can hit MULTIPLE targets per second...... you shouldve taken that into account

[-Break-]

This is just weapon swing speed, I'm not trying to determine weapon tiers or anything...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Break- on 2006-10-04 17:36 ]</font>

[Ether]

I'm surprised to see Knuckles as the 2nd fastest weapon, despite only having a 4 hit combo. Interesting list

[Rizen]

Nice work, if you got time, you should also take PAs into account with Hits Per Second (I know thats saying alot tho).

[Parn]

I don't think that's feasible, since there are multiple PAs per weapon class, each with a different style.

[AC9breaker]

Actually with the exception of knuckles you can hit more then 1 targets with all those weapons. He was just going for speed rating too, so that information doesn't matter.

Awesome job -Break- looks about right.

[RamenEater]

Man you were serious about this lol. Good job though =P

[-Break-]

On 2006-10-04 17:37, Rizen wrote:
Nice work, if you got time, you should also take PAs into account with Hits Per Second (I know thats saying alot tho).


Yes, I was considering doing PA's but my thumbs hurt right now and I would have to obtain all the extra PA's for each weapon as well. Nonetheless it's still a possibility. But PA's are quite different from weapon to weapon, so it might not be very feasible.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Break- on 2006-10-04 17:40 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Break- on 2006-10-04 17:43 ]</font>

[DizzyDi]

Awesome stuff Break.
More info to pour over and take into consideration when I make my character. Also stuff to tide me over until the US release.

[RoninJoku]

Nice contribution. Of course that info has to be taken into account along with many many other factors, but it's a very nice start.

[HC82]

Are these number determined from combo chain to chain, or hit to hit?

Some weapons hit numerous times per chain, but there is a lengthy delay for the next chain to occur. Not to mention the amount of hits overall.

Just curious is all.

[Alisha]

this list might be slightly flawed because females have a slightly different and possibly slightly faster knuckle combo. i dont know if any other weapons have different hits between the sexes. something else to consider is that i think single weapons are stronger than dual weilded ones.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Alisha on 2006-10-04 20:18 ]</font>

[-Break-]

On 2006-10-04 19:52, HC82 wrote:
Are these number determined from combo chain to chain, or hit to hit?

Some weapons hit numerous times per chain, but there is a lengthy delay for the next chain to occur. Not to mention the amount of hits overall.

Just curious is all.



The numbers are from a single combo as stated in the oringinal post.

[Tycho]

Interesting stuff.

[MaximusLight]

Well for just basic speed that look quite well done, I see you know the ways of staticial analysis, I tip my hat off to you I know how much of a pain that can be.

[-Break-]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I was considering testing this for gun firing speeds, not sure if that would be feasible though...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Break- on 2006-10-04 23:28 ]</font>

[Tycho]

For the ranged weapons, the 'eighth' Bullets all feature a faster firing animation.

[lotte]

Hey good work man, that took a bit of time im sure, way to put in the effort.

[AngelLight]

Glad you didn't let some of the other posts from the previous thread put you down on this. I think that this is useful and great work overall.

But as one of the other posters mentioned, I'd be curious to see if the speeds also hold true to Female chars or if there is a difference.

[-Break-]

If the animations for females vary enough I wouldn't be suprised if the speeds were slightly different. I'll look into it when I have the time, I still have to schedule an interview for a paper due next week.

[Umi_Ryu]

Saber (one handed) and Knuckles have different animation depending on the sex.
I think Dagger and Twin Daggers also have different animations.
I am sure that Twin Sabers, Twin Claws, Sword and Double Saber have the same animation for both sex.

I think what you did is a nice job, but I think there is one important thing to consider, like in any real time battle the delay is important.
Thought my gaming experience I could see that dual wield weapons were more efficient by their bigger number of hits and their PAs are often multi target. In the other hand, their single counterpart deals more damages per hit and have less recovery time after their last hit.

It means that you will kill faster with duals, because you will hit more than with a single weapons, but you will have more chance to get hit between two combos, while, with a single weapon, you can often attack and break animation of common enemies.

I think it is something to consider, but it have nothing to do with DPS and attack speed would not be so much affected by this since dual wielded weapons hit more in one string of combo than a single one, they still will have higher speed even if we take recovery time between combos into account.

It could be useful to have a number attached to each time for their "recovery time after the last hit of a combo".
But I think it is a bit to hard to calculate this time, since it will requires to start the timer right after the last strike hits a target.

[AC9breaker]

I think it would be too difficult to do range weapons since there are quite a bit of variables. For example, when you are planted(don't move) and start going full firing, then you next shots increase in speed. Or so it feels like that to me. Other people have a tested to this in the bow weapons. Meanwhile when moving or strafing speed seems to be consistant. Then there is also your button timing which effects your speed of firing.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: AC9breaker on 2006-10-05 14:56 ]</font>

[Fironial]

Saber, Dagger, Knuckles, Twin Daggers, Twin Claws, and Swords all have different animations based on gender. The only significant difference is with Twin Claws... women get an additional hit with those.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Fironial on 2006-10-05 15:25 ]</font>

[-Break-]

Ug, an additional hit means that the swing time would be faster for female characters...
Anyway, working on those delay numbers, halfway done right now.

[-Break-]

I have updated my original post to include delay time between combos for each weapon type. I myself found the results quite interesting. Enjoy!

[Himmelhand]

If I could ask you to check out something else, if you could compare damage, so the differences are even clearer? I understand it's a lot of work, but it would clear up the differences between knuckles and claws and stuff.

[-Break-]

I was actually considering comparing attack powers and such, most likely the B rank of GRM, only problem is that certian weapons like double saber and claws are only made by one manufacturer and therefore their attack stats are initially different.

[-Break-]

Damage comparison table added, take it with a grain of salt however.

[Himmelhand]

Awesome, that does help. Spears are looking good with multiple hits.

[AC9breaker]

Wow man, freaking awesome job.

[Umi_Ryu]

Nice job. I think with this players will have less problem to choose between the weapons, maybe it could be a good thing that you contribute it on PSUpedia.
Even if in PSU the skill of the player have a good part to play, it can be good to see what weapon chose depending on our playstyle/our character's personality.

Also, I would like to add that I am sure that Twin Claws have the same animation for both Males and Females, just tried it with Ethan and my character right after.
Maybe it was single Claw that have an additional hit for females.
I don't know for sure, but I did not see any difference in speed between males and females, even when the animation was different, maybe good to compare but I don't think it is needed, the difference seems pretty marginal, if there is any difference.

[-Break-]

On 2006-10-05 17:25, Umi_Ryu wrote:

I don't know for sure, but I did not see any difference in speed between males and females, even when the animation was different, maybe good to compare but I don't think it is needed, the difference seems pretty marginal, if there is any difference.



That's good to hear, my cuticles hurt.

[RuinedReBirth]

Though I focused on PA's, I still like the list you provided. Nice work.

[-Break-]

On 2006-10-05 18:30, RuinedReBirth wrote:
Though I focused on PA's, I still like the list you provided. Nice work.


Yea, in the end it all really boils down to PA and style preferences...In PSU its the way you play that can gimp you, not the types of equipment you use.

[Zarbolord]

Too true!

[Fironial]

Check around the 34 second mark on these videos.
Male: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJ15Migplmw
Female: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvoIBPoYZN4

I played around with both of my extra mode characters for quite a bit. The girls get one additional hit... but the game has been uninstalled for awhile and I no longer have access to it. It's possible that they could have patched it. It does look a little glitchy...

[Cause_I_Own_U]

WoW this is a nice guide, sword sure is lacking compared to spear, maybe the photon arts make up for it?

So by reading this it tells me twin daggers would be better suited for a race with high accuracy, whill slower weapons would be good for a race like beast with high atp and low ata?

[vg_geek86]

On 2006-10-07 11:25, Cause_I_Own_U wrote:
WoW this is a nice guide, sword sure is lacking compared to spear, maybe the photon arts make up for it?



Dont quote me on this, as I havnt played, but from what Ive seen spears only hit multiple enemies if there lined up one after another or grouped 'very' tightly, do to a stabbing motion as aposed to wide open slashing motion with the sword which covers much much more ground. Makes up for it from what Ive seen.

[ShadowDragon28]

I love using Swords, i *pray* there is an attack speed boosting Unit.

The delay and slight slowness of Swords sounds the same as in PSO. And IMO, that was slow. The Devil/Battle and God/Battle once found and equipped were excellent IMO.

[Bomberto]

If sword gets a knockdown PA, it would be my weapon of choice.

[Nuclearranger]

Nice work n.n

[-Break-]

On 2006-10-07 11:25, Cause_I_Own_U wrote:
WoW this is a nice guide, sword sure is lacking compared to spear, maybe the photon arts make up for it?

So by reading this it tells me twin daggers would be better suited for a race with high accuracy, whill slower weapons would be good for a race like beast with high atp and low ata?


Actually a weapon that has more hits per combo is more suitable for a race with lower accuracy as you have more chances to connect. If you're using a sword and you miss you usually get smacked upside the head, while if you miss with twin daggers you don't really notice that much. The sword PA's are disspointing to say the least.

[Alisha]

both of them? the tornado pa for sword seemed possibly lame but the jump slashing one didnt look so bad.

[Tycho]

On 2006-10-05 16:44, Himmelhand wrote:
If I could ask you to check out something else, if you could compare damage, so the differences are even clearer?
When you're too strong for an area, Twin Daggers rock. When you're too weak for an area, Swords would.

See how such a comparison would utterly fail? It's all context-dependent, and such a comparison could not realistically reflect this.

[-Break-]

On 2006-10-08 00:21, Tycho wrote:

On 2006-10-05 16:44, Himmelhand wrote:
If I could ask you to check out something else, if you could compare damage, so the differences are even clearer?
When you're too strong for an area, Twin Daggers rock. When you're too weak for an area, Swords would.

See how such a comparison would utterly fail? It's all context-dependent, and such a comparison could not realistically reflect this.


This is exactly why I said it needs to be taken with grain of salt. Hence my emphasis on personal preferences and PA's.

I find Twin Daggers work great anywhere but that's just a personal preference. In an area where the enemies are stronger, I find sword much less useful as most enemies are still alive after your combo, due to larger mobs, and then they smack you down. Twin daggers keep an enemy flinching for a longer period of time and also move you farther out of the middle of the mob. But that's just my experience, to each their own.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Break- on 2006-10-08 00:39 ]</font>

[Jozon]

and that's coming from someone with the absurd notion kirby could EVER beat Mario, I'm appauled http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

I'll use weapons for style, not necessarily for min/max damage otuput, etc. unless it's necessarily called for

[Alexandrious1]

On 2006-10-08 00:31, Jozon wrote:
and that's coming from someone with the absurd notion kirby could EVER beat Mario, I'm appauled http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

I'll use weapons for style, not necessarily for min/max damage otuput, etc. unless it's necessarily called for



Seen quite a few SSBM players with kirbys beating mario/luigi/doctor mario players fyi.

Course I use Fox and rape just bout anyone with my godlike speed and reflexes using him lol.

Anyway on topic, thanks for posting these charts man, Twin Sabers will still be my weapon of choice, but I usually like to carry more then 5 weapons anyway so this helps me on which other weapons I may want to use.

[-Break-]

On 2006-10-08 00:37, Alexandrious1 wrote:


On 2006-10-08 00:31, Jozon wrote:
and that's coming from someone with the absurd notion kirby could EVER beat Mario, I'm appauled http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

I'll use weapons for style, not necessarily for min/max damage otuput, etc. unless it's necessarily called for



Seen quite a few SSBM players with kirbys beating mario/luigi/doctor mario players fyi.

Course I use Fox and rape just bout anyone with my godlike speed and reflexes using him lol.

Anyway on topic, thanks for posting these charts man, Twin Sabers will still be my weapon of choice, but I usually like to carry more then 5 weapons anyway so this helps me on which other weapons I may want to use.



I use Falco personally, just a Kirby fan. Though Twin Saber doesn't look impressive number-wise it's PA's alone are enough to make it rock as they are great for knocking enemies up into the air and onto the ground.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Break- on 2006-10-08 00:45 ]</font>

[Alexandrious1]

I saw a vid once of a Newman female using twin sabers that really resembled the Musashi swords.

I had S-Rank Twin swords by the time I got bored and left PSO, would have Jiz-eye if I continued playing, I always liked using twin weapons, glad to hear twin sabers has some good PA's

[Alisha]

im still not convinced twin weapons are worth it especially vs stronger enemies. you trade signifigant attack power for more hits.

[Jozon]

link ftw

but if your going to use a single saber, how is using 2 gonna have less atp? shouldn't it double it?

[Alisha]

nope more like it halves it.

[Ether]

On 2006-10-08 00:47, Alisha wrote:
you trade signifigant attack power for more hits


Remember mechguns?

[-Break-]

On 2006-10-08 00:47, Alisha wrote:
im still not convinced twin weapons are worth it especially vs stronger enemies. you trade signifigant attack power for more hits.


You are quite correct on this, I was just comparing Twin daggers to Swords though. A weapon such as Spear would probably be much more effective than Twin weapons, but I never use Spear much. I find Double Saber's first PA quite useful in this situation as the enemies have trouble hitting you when you are flying all over the screen. However, when playing online with allies it may be advantageous to keep enemies locked up and flinching in a longer combo. I have not yet played online though so I truly can not say...


Here's (http://www.geocities.jp/pusu_jam/) a link to vids of the PA's Alexandrious1. You'll see what I mean about the knockdown on the Double Sabers.

[Kaply]

On 2006-10-07 11:44, vg_geek86 wrote:

Dont quote me on this, as I havnt played, but from what Ive seen spears only hit multiple enemies if there lined up one after another or grouped 'very' tightly, do to a stabbing motion as aposed to wide open slashing motion with the sword which covers much much more ground. Makes up for it from what Ive seen.



The spear PA that's available online actually is a cone attack. From the furthest range you can hit two enemies that are standing side by side, however if you're right up against them you can only hit one. This is one of the things that made me change my mind about spears. The second thing that makes spears a lot better than the other weapons is the damage multipler for the PA in combination with the weapon ATP (relative to other weapons)

5* B rank GRM spear = 376
5* B rank GRM twin dagger = 155
5* B rank GRM sword = 427
L20 Duus Duggers (spear) = 180% ATP modifier
L20 Renkaibuyouzan (twin dagger) = 155% ATP modifier
L20 Tornado break = 150% ATP modifier

[Sammy]

On 2006-10-08 05:38, Kaply wrote:

The spear PA that's available online actually is a cone attack. From the furthest range you can hit two enemies that are standing side by side, however if you're right up against them you can only hit one. This is one of the things that made me change my mind about spears. The second thing that makes spears a lot better than the other weapons is the damage multipler for the PA in combination with the weapon ATP (relative to other weapons)

5* B rank GRM spear = 376
5* B rank GRM twin dagger = 155
5* B rank GRM sword = 427
L20 Duus Duggers (spear) = 180% ATP modifier
L20 Renkaibuyouzan (twin dagger) = 155% ATP modifier
L20 Tornado break = 150% ATP modifier




Isn't it because the sword and twin dagger PAs you mentioned the AoE PAs? I can't read japanese so I don't know what they're called. There's an AoE PA for spears as well so you don't have to worry about only hitting one target. Visit that link for PAs in Break's post to view it.
I'm new here http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif. Please welcome me!

[-Break-]

I am bumping this due to the realease of the Xbox 360 demo in attempt to prevent noob weapon questions.

[mechatra]

Isn't it because the sword and twin dagger PAs you mentioned the AoE PAs? I can't read japanese so I don't know what they're called. There's an AoE PA for spears as well so you don't have to worry about only hitting one target. Visit that link for PAs in Break's post to view it.
I'm new here . Please welcome me!

That's true but the Deus Dagas (Basic Spear PA) also hits multiple times, racking up damage crazy fast (I <3 my spears)

The AoE PA for the spear Deus Robad, also has a crazy high damage %, although Im only going by the offline stat for that since its still not released online dammit!!! >_<

[-Break-]

I just realized that this topic got a sticky. Yay for me.

[patrickastan]

this def'n needs to stay on the first page....i found it very interesting. Thanks for the good work!

[-Break-]

Updated, for US release.

[Erasure25]

I just got a dagger for my ranger cuz I maxed out the RS saber PA. Good to see it has good numbers. I definately like it. I feel all cool and l33t doing those flips and stuff. I'll have to look at Spears again according to Mechatra's posts. I got a Pike drop but it takes some getting used to. I'll have to practice deus daggas on side-by-side mobs.

[Zer_01]

It's an amazing set of raw data you have right there that can tell us a lot about different melee weapons, and of course its inherently limited. that being said; i find it impressive that ANY person has that kind of attention span to gather all this data in an accurate scientific manner.

im feeling the possibility of a large scale research operation into this subject.

also, i think most of us can agree that hard numbers are good, but a player's style, preferences, and proficiencies determine the most effective player.

[-Break-]

Updated again after a long hiatus from PSU.