PSU: The demand for buffers and supportive forces... in theo

[ChibiMyu]

I've been looking at the list of Techniques available to forces in PSU and noticed that there are quite a few new ones. Including direct damage dealing techniques, there are also ones that focus on landing both good and bad status effects - enough to keep a hyperactive little force busy. The question though, is are they worth it, and will there be a demand for them?

In my opinion, the two main factors that will determine this are as follows:
1. The effectiveness of these spells
2. The difficulty of Online Network Mode

First, we will explore factor #1, the effectiveness of these spells. It is common sense that the higher level a technique is, the more powerful it is likely to be. Because forces have the highest level techniques, they are our top candidate for the job.

Most people who played PSO probably agree that casting the highest level Deband and Shifta were well worth it - they cost a small amount of TP/MP/PP/whatever, had a decent land radius, and lasted multiple minutes.

The debuffs were a little more optional, depending on how fast monsters died. In a party full of spread needles, by the time you ran into the room to cast Jellen and Zalure, everything was already dead. Not worthwhile. Soloing offline mode, however, they were welcome. For my melee-happy fonewearl, the method to defeat monsters without going through a full stack of 10 trifluid every few rooms was to gather up all the monsters, cast my debuffs, and then whack away with my huge plantain fan or mechgun until everything was dead. Rinse, repeat. The buffs and debuffs were all % based on the level of the technique, so it didn't matter what my gear was.

And then there's the other debuffs! Freezing enemies was great in PSO's PvP until everyone learned the ice trick. Freeze traps were also nice when dealing with annoying enemies like dark gunners that were only attackable by physical attacks for short periods of time. (And unlike the techniques, traps had a near 100% land rate.) Sadly, all bosses were resistant to ice and shock. And then there's the classic spread needle example again... someone walks into the room, freezes the target, but .5 seconds later it's dead because everyone just unloaded their spreadneedles again.

Now in PSU, apparently you need to bind a technique to some sort of wand, rod, or other mage weapon and have it equiped in order to cast a spell. The easiest way to go about this seems to be to bind all your buffs to the same weapon, equip it every few minutes, cast your techs, and then go along yor merry way with whatever other weapon you choose. But wait! If you bind techniques of the same element to a weapon, you are supposed to get some sort of % bonus. Each element has its own set of buffs and debuffs. Does that mean in order to get the biggest boost for my precious pp that I must bind all my buffs and debuffs to different rods? Do mental stats influence the power of buffs? In PSO, the answers were no, and no, but that could change for PSU! It could also be the birth of some crazy weapon swapping. (Which some of us already do anyway!)

My final thought is that PSU parties support 6 people, not 4. The general rule for most RPGs seems the more people you are advised to bring, the more challenging your mission or raid is likely to be. If you are attempting to do the mission with a smaller or lower level group of players, more strategy will be involved. More strategy usually involves a wider use of tactics and abilities. And that includes buffs and debuffs.

[uhawww]

In my experiences playing with Force team members, although the new array of techs are neat, it all seems to devolve into the same thing PSO was to forces: Machinegunning Barta and Resta.

Now, I normally keep to myself and don't do a lot of runs with full parties, so said experience is a bit limited, so you're welcome to take the above comment with a grain of salt...

[Rizen]

Yeah, I believe that debuffs will help greatly in Online mode seeing how enemies have a large health pool compared to Offline. From my experience with any MMO, healers, buffers, debuffs always made life easier and almost necessary everywhere.
As for the demand of them, I doubt that it will come to the point where its "ZOMFG!?!?! We dont have support force we cant finizh!!1." In PSO I've always found that forces tend to heal and buff the party without being asked even if they were focusing on damage. Also another thing that PSU will be different from other online games is that its alot easier to heal yourself with items and not relay on healer to keep you alive
(sorry for any spelling mistakes or the way i said anything ><)

[Genobee]

I remeber in PSO the only useful forses in Ult was a support force and somes in episode 2 ult it realy realy helps to have a support force. My favorite forces had a handbag and a resta merge, you can resta people from the other room.

[Kent]

From my experience in PSO, the simple Shifta + Zalure makes quite a large difference in the amount of damage people are hitting for, and Deband + Jellen could take enemies from taking half my HP in one shot, to doing less than 10 damage per hit (on Ultimate, no less).

If the equivalent techniques in PSU (Agtal, Agdeal, Defbal, Defdeal) are anywhere near as effective, then a Force doing support should be more than welcome. Not to mention, there are a couple other techniques available that reduce or increase stats (Zodial/Zodeal do both ATA and EVP up/down at the same, and Retial increases both TAP and MST - Megistal increases all of your stats, at the cost of HP), as well as what seem to be techniques that directly reduce damage from melee (Dizas) and ranged (Rendis) attacks.

That's ten support techniques, then there's Resta (/obvious), Giresta (raise + regen), and Regene (removes status) for healing techniques. That's a little over a third of one's PA limit (13/36, for those not counting), and I imagine a Force keeping all of these status effects up at once, would make quite a difference for the whole party.

[galaxy]

i think what you will come to find is a lot more Force specialization. since it would seem likely that most forces will want at least a few weapon skills and a few bullets for specific situations, that would mean that forces are going to have to give up some of their technics. So what we will probably find here, that was different from PSO, is a more specialized force. depending on each technic's effectiveness, i could very well see a purely damage dealing force with no buffing ability (besides maybe resta), and I could also see a purely buff/debuff force with a few damage dealing technics. This is actually my hope: that each class develops its own specialization of sorts. hunters will choose specific weapons that they plan on using and learn all the PA's for just those weapons (since im guessing they will be releasing more as time goes on), or pull a jack of all trades type and learn a few PA's for most weapons. Rangers will do the same. This will allow for much more dynamic parties then in PSO where things werea little more cut and dry.

[Kent]

Well, odds are, most of the people going for Fortecher won't get anything but techniques - Since they are doing after a class that specializes in using techniques (and uses them the best), they're probably wanting to use their potential to the fullest - Thus, using all 36 techniques (that being, no skills or bullets), to their fullest potential.

Of course, if new techniques were added in (unlocked), we'd see some interesting setups for Fortechers.

However, it is very likely we'll see individual specialization in the hybrid classes. The Guntecher and Wartecher will most likely choose to specialize in one type of technique, and the rest in skills/bullets (like status boosts + melee weapons, or status debuffs + ranged weapons), or even someone who wants to be an all-out offensive character, with only melee weapon skills and heavy damage techniques. As odd as it seems, we'll probably see more specialization with the hybrid classes, than we will with the specialized ones.

[wraith5k]

The pa limit is 20 for normal forces, and 30 for the expert class not 36. I thinks >.>

If the Pa limit was 36 then there would be no specialization because then every force would use every spell.

But, since they can't, there should be all kind of damage or support specs floating about! at least till they become forteforces. I personally don't see forces using weapons very much though.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: wraith5k on 2006-10-07 13:20 ]</font>

[Kent]

That's not a PA limit, that's the highest level any PA of that type can be levelled up to. Forces, Guntechers, and Wartechers can level their Techniques to level 20, Fortechers can level theirs to level 30.

The PA limit for all characters, is 36, and that governs all skills, bullets, and techniques for that character, regardless of current class.

[wraith5k]

(reread) shit your right.

Well that's kinda lame. Where are the chances for specialization in anything then?

Unless it it all comes down to what/how many different rods/wands you own/can own.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: wraith5k on 2006-10-07 13:31 ]</font>

[AlphaMinotaux]

On 2006-10-07 13:25, Kent wrote:
That's not a PA limit, that's the highest level any PA of that type can be levelled up to. Forces, Guntechers, and Wartechers can level their Techniques to level 20, Fortechers can level theirs to level 30.

The PA limit for all characters, is 36, and that governs all skills, bullets, and techniques for that character, regardless of current class.



wait so that means you can't go swapping classes whenever you want, and not be able to max them all?

[Kent]

Well, it's designed so that a player can play multiple classes, without having to delete some of his hard-levelled PAs, I'm guessing.

However, later on, once you're done levelling your basic classes, and want to go into your expert class, you may find it a bit more limiting.

I made a list of PAs I want to have on my Wartecher, and I'll barely be able to fit them all in the 36 limit. It's got the 10 support techniques, the 3 healing ones, and then 6 attack techniques, one for each element. Then, there's the six bullets for Longbows, then one skill each, for Saber, Claw, Twin Claw, Twin Dagger, Spear, and Card (cards, apparently, use skills instead of bullets). That's 31 PAs total, meaning I can fit five more in there. This is the kind of build I want for mine (a good selection of melee weapon skills, and mostly support techniques, with a few attack ones in for good measure), and I have a small amount of leeway in there, for five more, should I want them.

Basically, I'm going to be specializing my Wartecher to be like how I had my FOmar in PSO: No wasting any potential, and using everything I've got, to be versatile.

[Itsuki]

You're missing out one major factor:

There are items that do shifta/deband/etc for you from the shop that cost 150 a piece. Now, thats not exactly the cheapest thing in the world. But using 2-3 a level isn't a burden.

[Xx3of19xX]

OMG, I didn't know that at all. I thought you could learn however many different Photon Arts you liked... So it is a bit like Talents in World of Warcraft then.
It's kinda cool though, I imagined in the end everybody would be level 100 with all jobs at max level and all PAs fully mastered. This will give much more diversity in characters and playing styles, I like it!

[Kent]

On 2006-10-07 13:50, Itsuki-chan wrote:
You're missing out one major factor:

There are items that do shifta/deband/etc for you from the shop that cost 150 a piece. Now, thats not exactly the cheapest thing in the world. But using 2-3 a level isn't a burden.


Just as how you can buy Monomates and the like, instead of using Resta. Besides, to my understanding, they don't affect allies when you use those. Why spend money on something for yourself, when you've got a teammate more than willing to just throw out a technique for you, that does the same thing (assuming you didn't get separated or something), and possibly even more effective?

I don't really see how this is a major factor - especially given that these items aren't subject to improvement, like the techniques for them are (of course, it depends on the technique level of effect these items put on you).

[wraith5k]

heeeyy...... are you sure Megistal affects your teammates as well?

[Kent]

I never said it did. :/ It'd actually probably be a bad idea, to make it affect allies, being that it lowers your HP when you use it (you may have Forces just go around and use it, in an attempt to kill people). The description at PSUpedia states that it affects the user.

[wraith5k]

Ya, that's what I was getting at. Just self buffs don't count as support skills. IMO.

Ah...Meh.

[Kent]

Well, really, techniques (and magic-like skills in any game) can only be described as attack, support, or recovery... Megistal certainly isn't attack or recovery, and it does function as a buff, therefore, it would have be classified as a support technique.

Rendis and Dizas "generate a field around the caster," meaning they can only be self-targeted... However, I don't know how exactly it works, or how big this field is, but it looks like a self buff, as well, and therefore, a support technique.

[Spellbinder]

Actually Rendis and Dizas (if that's their english spelling) create a field around the caster and other members of the party, at least they did in Story Mode. The animation is like a piece of a ring circling around you, the Lv 21+ animation is a ring split into three pieces circling around the caster, and around party members who were in range. As far as I could tell from my limited use of them in Story Mode, one negates melee attacks, and one negates ranged attacks. Whether enemiy Technics count as Range I'm not sure. I keep telling myself to use them more and see what they can really do, but I'm too lazy to play offline http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Spellbinder on 2006-10-07 14:42 ]</font>

[Kent]

That is interesting. Looks like they'll be pretty useful - especially if Rendis does block out techniques, as well.

[Spellbinder]

On 2006-10-07 13:28, wraith5k wrote:
(reread) shit your right.

Well that's kinda lame. Where are the chances for specialization in anything then?

Unless it it all comes down to what/how many different rods/wands you own/can own.

[ This Message was edited by: wraith5k on 2006-10-07 13:31 ]


In regards to specialization. Even though Force is allowed access to 36 Technics (which is essentially all of them), you have to also consider how incredibly hard it would be to try and use them all given you can only hold 4 techs on a Rod, and 6 Rods at a time. That's 24 Technics which means you'll have to choose carefully how you want to set yourself up when you go into a mission. As someone mentioned earlier, about a 3rd of the Technics are support, and trying to successfully juggle them all and attack will be very hard.

Personally, I'll be attempting to create setup that tries to balance offense and support for a team. Will it be hard? I'm fairly sure of it, but I like to challenge. While it's possible to be a jack of all trades as some Forces may try to be, specializing in support or offense will be much easier on a Force, which many may want to start off with.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Spellbinder on 2006-10-07 15:09 ]</font>

[Kent]

...What's this about only being able to carry six rods at once? There's a per-item carrying limit?

[Spellbinder]

Although your item inventory has a limit of 60, the limit to how many actual weapons you can quickly switch through during any given fight is 6.

Edit: Looked back through the articles on PSO-W.

http://www.pso-world.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=2372#Palette

Scroll down and look at the action palette, that's what I'm referring to.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Spellbinder on 2006-10-07 17:13 ]</font>

[PJ]

Here's my thought for Fortecaster

2 Rods for Support - 1 for the Buffing, 1 for Debuffing

2 Rods for Offensive - Just find the techniques that you like and stick to em. Preferably, stick to 7, so one can be for Resta.

A bow, and a saber.

Tada, 6!

[hypersaxon]

Anyone know if you're able to replace PAs if you run out of room? I certainly hope so, that way if you wanted to switch from Force to Hunter and wanted some PA skills, you'd just buy the skill and use it, then pick one to replace. Then when you switch to Force, you'd just have to buy the technique you got rid of over again.

[Parn]

Supposedly you are able to overwrite old ones with new ones. I imagine you lose all the old levels associated with the replaced photon art however, since a limit wouldn't make sense otherwise.

[Xx3of19xX]

Well, even if you kept the levels of your deleted PAs, it would still limit you from being able to do everything at any one time, kinda like you can re-specc in WoW for a certain cost (here buying back all skills and changing jobs would cost Meseta).



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Xx3of19xX on 2006-10-07 17:28 ]</font>

[Inspektahdek]

support force=me be on the lookout

[Kent]

On 2006-10-07 17:11, Spellbinder wrote:
Although your item inventory has a limit of 60, the limit to how many actual weapons you can quickly switch through during any given fight is 6.

Edit: Looked back through the articles on PSO-W.

http://www.pso-world.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=2372#Palette

Scroll down and look at the action palette, that's what I'm referring to.


...So you can't go through the menu and equip weapons that way, to save room on your quick-swap palette?

[Spellbinder]

The best you'd be able to do is go into the item menu -> select weapon -> pick where you want it to go on the action palette -> back out the menus -> use it on the action palette. In the middle of a fight http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif needless to say, you'd get beat up pretty badly trying. So you'll want to choose carefully, or switch weapons inbetween rooms.

[Alisha]

i think forces will have to specialize or adapt thier spells to the situation like a bluemage does. we were talking about this before on mirc, but a beast FO has the potential to be deadly with this tech:
(Nosumegid) Dark-based attack technique. Generates a sphere of gravity that automatically pursues an enemy as long as the casting button is held down. The amount of damage dealt depends on the caster's remaining HP. (the return of the anger tech?)

wich can also be paired with this tech:
(Megiverse) Dark-based support technique. This technique restores the caster's HP by absorbing it from enemies. Consumes PP at a fixed rate depending on how long the casting button is held.
Fo's may end up being defined more by their race than class.

[galaxy]

my plans as of now are, with my main character, to specialize as a fortetecher, but still not get every single tech. the reason being:

I havent played the game yet, but from the looks of it, i think it would be extremely difficult, and perhaps highly ineffective, to try and play all the jobs of a force. since you can only quickly carry 24 technics on your 6 rods, switching technics mid battle would prove extremely difficult. I know my intention, even as a fortetecher, is to to take only healing and damage technics, and leave the support to others. Because i know that's what i'll be focusing on, i'm already sure there will not be room on my rods or wands to fit support technics, so why get them? i'd rather get a few skills or bullets in those situations where i dont want to use magic.