PSU - Will Statistical Analysis and Optimizing have a Detrim

[Dai-Kitana]

I see many ppl already dissecting and calculating DPS formulas, applying multipliers determining statistical variance based on race/class, calculating weapon speeds / damage ratio, etc.

While it can be beneficial in helping to identify effectiveness and variance in relation to race / class selectives, i am also seeing this leading to discussions regarding (lack of) balance, racial / class statistical imbalances, weapon optimizing, effectively shifting focus away from the uniqueness, purity, and enjoyment of the game, more-so towards an influx of raw data and optimizers.

Statistical analysis and optimizing has removed the uniqueness from many MMO's / online RPG's, inevitably leading to a generic influx of cookie-cutter character models into the community itself.

I am interested in seeing others viewpoints in regards to this topic, and the benefits / drawbacks in statistical analysis / optimizing, and effects within the community itself.

I am hoping PSU will retain the purity and enjoyment of the game, without evolving into an influx of cookie cutter character / weapon selectives simply based on statistics, formulas, and raw data.

[Rizen]

Everything you have said is pretty well valid. I know alot of people are going to play a certain race and a certain gender because of a certain and a certain blah blah blah. It really does take the fun out of the game for sure. For me, I go with what looks best. Stats really arent that important to me in this game. Only thing I really plan out is what weapons and PAs Im going to get because they will be something that will effect me the whole gime.

All and all folks, have fun and try new things. Dont be bogged down on stats.

[Bomberto]

In this kind of game, I don't see that happening much. Every member of a party will add something to the efficiency of the group, and it is really based on the skill of the person and how they fight, not their class and gear.

Unless you are a force Cast. You are pretty much worthless, sorry

[Parn]

On 2006-10-08 07:31, Bomberto wrote:
Unless you are a force Cast. You are pretty much worthless, sorry
Nice attitude.

[Rizen]

Man, thats the same shit that people starts the whole race stat thing. FO cast can do as much as any force can. It might not be as high, but sure as hell not worthless.

[afcakey]

On 2006-10-08 07:31, Bomberto wrote:
Unless you are a force Cast. You are pretty much worthless, sorry



I laughed http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Nisshoku]

On 2006-10-08 07:31, Bomberto wrote:
Unless you are a force Cast. You are pretty much worthless, sorry


Dude, WTF? Personally, I just say play what ya like, and that's that. I don't really care about max damage output in a game, but just to enjoy the experience.

[physic]

really it doesnt matter, because although the game has this stuff, its not necessary, in this game. ultimately you can take a focast on a mission and still get an s rank, so although someone may be better, doesnt matter cause you all can win.

[mech259_]

On 2006-10-08 07:37, physic wrote:
really it doesnt matter, because although the game has this stuff, its not necessary, in this game. ultimately you can take a focast on a mission and still get an s rank, so although someone may be better, doesnt matter cause you all can win.



Yes, but think of how much faster you could be going if you were playing with someone smart that wasn't using a cast as a FO.

[Sammy]

What's the 'purity' of this game?

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2006-10-08 07:36, Nisshoku wrote:


On 2006-10-08 07:31, Bomberto wrote:
Unless you are a force Cast. You are pretty much worthless, sorry


Dude, WTF? Personally, I just say play what ya like, and that's that. I don't really care about max damage output in a game, but just to enjoy the experience.



But people who use default face still really, really suck.

Also chibi people.

Also, people who are too tall.

[Zinger314]

On 2006-10-08 07:36, Nisshoku wrote:


On 2006-10-08 07:31, Bomberto wrote:
Unless you are a force Cast. You are pretty much worthless, sorry


Dude, WTF? Personally, I just say play what ya like, and that's that. I don't really care about max damage output in a game, but just to enjoy the experience.



Casts have half the standard MST. Newman have double the standard MST. I know which one I'd want in my group...

If someone is using a FOcast, he's punishing himself.

[Earthsunderer]

But perhaps that person who is smart is still somehow... quite unskilled when playing.

I do consider myself to be of normal intelligence. I still get beaten by little girls when playing some fight'em up-games or other people.

You can after all still fail and have a hard time when you don't react fast enough, and reaction times has nothing to do with intelligence.

[Parn]

On 2006-10-08 07:44, Zinger314 wrote:
Casts have half the standard MST. Newman have double the standard MST. I know which one I'd want in my group...

If someone is using a FOcast, he's punishing himself.
Too bad MST has no bearing on techniques!

[Sammy]

Wouldn't Cast forces be hard to kill considering their high dfp and can cast buffs and resta? They would make good choices for support right?

[Rizen]

Just a question, how many of you play the game and how many of you are just going by what you read?
I would listen to some of the people who play the game online like Parn and others and even offline before making things up like FOcasts are worthless and stuff.

[Parn]

Here's how it works guys! I know everything because I looked at statistics charts!

If you make a hunter, beast is the only race you are allowed to play. If you play anything else, you are stupid because beast has the highest damage output.

If you make a ranger, cast is the only one allowed because they have the most accuracy. You are gimping the party if you do not play as this race.

If you make a force, only newmans are allowed. Every other race slows the experience points per hour.

Humans and hybrid classes are for gimps. A party should consist of 3 beast hunters, 1 cast ranger, and 2 newman forces. Any other combination is not as efficient and is in fact, slowing XP down. Players who use humans or try to make worthless hybrid classes like Wartecher are trying to perform the job of two classes half-assed.

There you go folks! Only beast fortefighters, cast fortegunners, and newman fortechers for end-game allowed! Max DPS or GTFO.

[Zinger314]

On 2006-10-08 07:47, Parn wrote:

On 2006-10-08 07:44, Zinger314 wrote:
Casts have half the standard MST. Newman have double the standard MST. I know which one I'd want in my group...

If someone is using a FOcast, he's punishing himself.
Too bad MST has no bearing on techniques!



Hey, I'm still learning...

...but Newman have a 150x Multiplier to TAP, while casts only have a 20x multiplier. (PSUpedia (http://www.psupedia.org/index.php?title=Races))

Even Humans have 5 times the multiplier.

Thankfully, I'm playing a Newman Force, just so I can laugh at any FOcasts which join the group. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[Sammy]

I haven't played yet. That's why my replies are in question form. I'm new to PS. I'm new to this forum as well. PSU seemed interesting so I'm thinking of giving this game shot.

[Sammy]

TAP doesn't affect buffs and resta though right?

[Parn]

On 2006-10-08 07:54, Zinger314 wrote:
Thankfully, I'm playing a Newman Force, just so I can laugh at any FOcasts which join the group. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif
And the FOcasts will get to laugh as you get one-shot more often than them. I'm sure this'll open up a "LOL I CAN JUST DODGE" but the reality is that everyone dies in this game at some point. I consider myself pretty damned good at the game with hunter, but people make mistakes.

By the way, TAP has no bearing on techniques like Resta. A cast force can't keep up with offensive techniques, but a cast force is perfectly viable for the supportive role, something most newman forces ignore because they're too busy jacking off to their rabarta damage.

[-Shimarisu-]

Casts have half the standard MST. Newman have double the standard MST. I know which one I'd want in my group...

If someone is using a FOcast, he's punishing himself.



Force with high def and HP are actually useful as support, they don't get stepped on and crushed.

I have a female FObeast, guess I'm just mentally retarded. Or masochistic, w/e.

[Rizen]

On 2006-10-08 07:54, Parn wrote:
Here's how it works guys! I know everything because I looked at statistics charts!

If you make a hunter, beast is the only race you are allowed to play. If you play anything else, you are stupid because beast has the highest damage output.

If you make a ranger, cast is the only one allowed because they have the most accuracy. You are gimping the party if you do not play as this race.

If you make a force, only newmans are allowed. Every other race slows the experience points per hour.

Humans and hybrid classes are for gimps. A party should consist of 3 beast hunters, 1 cast ranger, and 2 newman forces. Any other combination is not as efficient and is in fact, slowing XP down. Players who use humans or try to make worthless hybrid classes like Wartecher are trying to perform the job of two classes half-assed.

There you go folks! Only beast fortefighters, cast fortegunners, and newman fortechers for end-game allowed! Max DPS or GTFO.


ROFL srsly.


On 2006-10-08 07:57, Sammy wrote:
TAP doesn't affect buffs and resta though right?


As far as I know, they arent.

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2006-10-08 07:54, Parn wrote:
Here's how it works guys! I know everything because I looked at statistics charts!

If you make a hunter, beast is the only race you are allowed to play. If you play anything else, you are stupid because beast has the highest damage output.

If you make a ranger, cast is the only one allowed because they have the most accuracy. You are gimping the party if you do not play as this race.

If you make a force, only newmans are allowed. Every other race slows the experience points per hour.

Humans and hybrid classes are for gimps. A party should consist of 3 beast hunters, 1 cast ranger, and 2 newman forces. Any other combination is not as efficient and is in fact, slowing XP down. Players who use humans or try to make worthless hybrid classes like Wartecher are trying to perform the job of two classes half-assed.

There you go folks! Only beast fortefighters, cast fortegunners, and newman fortechers for end-game allowed! Max DPS or GTFO.



LOL Parn you have no idea how much this sounds like a guy on IRC that you've probably never spoken to.

I mean, precisely.

You also forgot to say that the only weapon worth using is spear as it has the highest ATP.

[Avion]

Casts' better ATA and ATP could be put towards using guns to add some support also.

I think a Cast Guntecher might be interesting

[Sammy]

Thought sword had the highest :/

[Shiro_Ryuu]

I agree with you Dai-Kitana, I'm playing what I want regardless of what people say. looks > stats.

[DurakkenX]

from someone who actually played a Android Force... they do about 1/4 the dmg a newman force does. This wouldn't bother me as much as the fact that technics are hard to aim as you have to 100% manually aim them and every technic takes quite a bit of time to cast, at least with a rod. This together really makes an Android a bad selection for Force in all aspects other than as a support character which then gives the problem of getting no XP and even at lvl43/5 some bosses can still one shot kill me as a lot of moves they do inescapable once you get hit once you're gonna get 2 or 3 times more. However I'd rather be an android trying to heal than a Newman or Human... ^.^

Also for those who are doing this stat calculations... well they are dumb because so far the weapons and such have very little visual difference and the HP of mobs are so high that it really doesn't matter whether you're doing such tiny differences.

Also the game is very much set up like PSO where the higher the lvl you get the bigger the differences, but the less it matters.

[Umi_Ryu]

I think that the persons who are selecting their parties and character on efficiency are the real dumbarses.

FYI : Phantasy Star Universe is a Multi Player Online GAME ...

Not a personal attack against a certain individual, just what I think. I will play HUnewearl for starting. (zomg I play a gimp class, flame me) And will probably go for Wartecher or Fortefighter, I know they are the less efficient Hunter types, but who cares ?

On topic :

I don't think it is bad to look at DPS, stats and all, if it is just for the sake of curiosity.
If it is for knowing what class to choose to be "Teh R0x0r", no thanks ...

I don't think PSO/PSU ever needed balance, because it is a PvE only game, so no need to be competitive for enjoying the game.

Also, PSO never have been too much of a life stealing, and I home PSU will not either. What I mean is that in PSO there was more efficient classes than others, but in the end no one ever cared because a bit more efficiency or a bit less did not changed anything.

Mainly because PSO was an easy game, but, even if I did not tried online yet, I bet PSU is not so hard that you have to go for an optimised group to have a chance to get S Rank.
If we can get S ranks with a FOcast, a bit harder than with a FOnewearl, but we can still get it and have fun, what the point to let FOcasts apart from parties ?

What I mean is, there are no weak classes IMO, since only the way the player plays can penalise your ranking. There are just more efficient classes, but there are no additional reward for being "uber". While in other MMO there is often additional rewards for being optimized, which destroy the diversity.

Play for fun, it is just a game ...
... and playing a FOcast can be fun.

[mechatra]

On 2006-10-08 07:58, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Force with high def and HP are actually useful as support, they don't get stepped on and crushed.

I have a female FObeast, guess I'm just mentally retarded. Or masochistic, w/e.



Shimarisu, your just a furry. Don't deny it http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[Dre_o]

I will sum up my paragraph and a half attack on statistical idiots with this sentence:

Just do it, play it, live with it, and what ever you do: I DON'T GIVE A DAMN.

[Rizen]

On 2006-10-08 08:29, Dre_o wrote:

Just do it, play it, live with it, and what ever you do: I DON'T GIVE A DAMN.

Amen.

[Xx3of19xX]

MST governs your defence against techniques (Mental Strength), while TAP is Technical Attack Power and governs the damage you do with attack Techniques.

[Ryudo]

I heard in Guilty Gear XX you can only play as Eddie or Slayer

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2006-10-08 08:28, mechatra wrote:

Shimarisu, your just a furry. Don't deny it http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif



BUT SOMETHING AWFUL TAUGHT ME THAT CATGIRLS FALL INTO THE "NOT FURRY" CATEGORY AND ARE THEREFORE OK

[mech259_]

Cast and beast forces are useless and will always be useless. Sure they can kind of support a bit better but they do 1/5th the damage of other races. Cast should be RA only, beast HU only. Sega made the game the way they did for a reason.

[adamgnome104]

People who care about stats and speed runs and experiance points are the WORST kind of people to play an ONLINE GAME.

There's no sense of community, it's just a sense of obessesion and it's too damn frustrating.

I just want to play a videogame to have fun, and enjoy myself with people.

[DizzyDi]

The way I see it, there are two types of people that are gunna play PSU: The power-players who like to stat max and get the most they can out of the race/class combo and the casual players. There is NOTHING wrong with being a power-player, as long as you don't critisize other people for not being one. And there is NOTHING wrong with being a casual player, as long as you don't critisize the people who are power players. In MMOs (or ORPG if you wanna get technical) there are ALWAYS going to be power-players. To me, that is one of the draws of an MMO. To have the coolest equipment and to be the most badass motherfucker you can possibly be. I am more of a power-player, hence why I'm choosing to be a Beast Fortehunter but that doesn't mean I hate casual players. If I'm in a party and I see a Newman Hunter, or a Cast Force I'm not going to go LOL what a noob! I'm just gunna shrug it off and say to each his own, and I think everyone should do the same.

[Sammy]

On 2006-10-08 09:46, mech259_ wrote:
Cast and beast forces are useless and will always be useless. Sure they can kind of support a bit better but they do 1/5th the damage of other races. Cast should be RA only, beast HU only. Sega made the game the way they did for a reason.



Casts make good hunters as well. Beasts make viable Wartechers. That spell which depends on hp to do damage may be a good option for Beasts and Casts.

[DarK-SuN]

On 2006-10-08 09:46, mech259_ wrote:
Cast and beast forces are useless and will always be useless. Sure they can kind of support a bit better but they do 1/5th the damage of other races. Cast should be RA only, beast HU only. Sega made the game the way they did for a reason.

Does that mean that in PSO Rangers should only be RAcaseals, Hunters should only be HUcasts and Forces should only be FOnewearls?
Get outta here.

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2006-10-08 08:28, mechatra wrote:

Shimarisu, your just a furry. Don't deny it http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif



BTW I liked this pic:

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/5725/sarielbodyshot2nf7.jpg

...that you sent me in PM.

[DrewSeleski]

Too beefy :(((

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2006-10-08 10:07, DrewSeleski wrote:
Too beefy http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif((



I know. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif((

[mech259_]

On 2006-10-08 10:06, DarK-SuN wrote:


On 2006-10-08 09:46, mech259_ wrote:
Cast and beast forces are useless and will always be useless. Sure they can kind of support a bit better but they do 1/5th the damage of other races. Cast should be RA only, beast HU only. Sega made the game the way they did for a reason.

Does that mean that in PSO Rangers should only be RAcaseals, Hunters should only be HUcasts and Forces should only be FOnewearls?
Get outta here.




No, PSO is a different game. But even in PSO I don't know why anyone would make a HUcaseal, a RAcaseal, or a FOnewm since the other classes were all better than those 3.

[Nisshoku]

I'll play what I want to, and you play what you want to. If you don't like what I'm playing? Get out.

Simple as that.

[Sammy]

On 2006-10-08 09:46, mech259_ wrote:
Cast and beast forces are useless and will always be useless. Sure they can kind of support a bit better but they do 1/5th the damage of other races. Cast should be RA only, beast HU only. Sega made the game the way they did for a reason.



Casts make good hunters as well. Beasts make viable Wartechers. That spell which depends on hp to do damage may be a good option for Beasts and Casts.

[Rizen]

This is starting to remind me of "Theorycraft"....

[Sammy]

Click on the disable smiles on this post option?

[-Shimarisu-]

LOLing really tho cause mostly I play ideal classes for the race, I just force myself to play that particular class after I chose my char mostly for looks.

Edit: Although, I totally saw a hot RAmar in-game and all that stuff went out the window.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2006-10-08 10:16 ]</font>

[Sammy]

Click on the disable smiles on this post option?

Edit: The back button made me double post sorry.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sammy on 2006-10-08 10:18 ]</font>

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2006-10-08 10:16, Sammy wrote:
Click on the disable smiles on this post option?

Edit: The back button made me double post sorry.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sammy on 2006-10-08 10:18 ]</font>


Nub.

[Sammy]

On 2006-10-08 10:19, -Shimarisu- wrote:

Nub.



Yea seriously. Was it the forward button? I don't know.

Edit: Wait a minute, you don't even know how to turn off smilies.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sammy on 2006-10-08 10:25 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sammy on 2006-10-08 10:25 ]</font>

[DrewSeleski]

:)))))))))))))))))))))

[mech259_]

n.n;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

[Rizen]

I now declare this topic trolled, have fun!

[Alexandrious1]

On 2006-10-08 10:15, Rizen wrote:
This is starting to remind me of "Theorycraft"....



Ahh Theorycraft, how I loathed that game.

Horde Shaman and Shadowpriest: Paladins have sucky dps and cant kill anyone, they are only distractions, kill them last

Paladin walks up with Sulfuras Hand of Ragnaros weapon and judgement gear, kills Shadowpriest in 3 hits via SoC, one of em being a critical hit, then does a 4.3k Critical on the Shaman using Gnomish Deathray, instantly killing the shaman.

Shaman and Shadowpriest go on alliance characters and accuse paladin of using "Dmg hax"

Im glad I left that game but ahh the funny moments.

Regardless im being a Human Hunter, being human cuz I want to mess between Hunter and Force, go Fortefighter and maybe try Wartechter now and then. Number Crunching is so old school now im sick of it, most of it is skill now, nuff said.

[LocGaw]

I don't think parsers will ruin gameplay...
I am wondering about why the statement that FoNewm was a bad choice for a force in PSO was made. The Fonewm had #2 MST, most TP and the only Force job with a native boost to Ra-type Spells...

I never thought RaCaseal was bad either. Although HuCaseal gave me a headache until I camped for God/Battle and a MKB, then that PC had menacing speed...

[Tycho]

On 2006-10-08 07:27, Dai-Kitana wrote:
I see many ppl already dissecting and calculating DPS formulas, applying multipliers determining statistical variance based on race/class, calculating weapon speeds / damage ratio, etc.
You missed the part where I was arguing looks were more important than stats in IRC. ;p
Glasses > weapons. D:

[DurakkenX]

statistically speaking Human is automatically the best for any hybrid class because it doesn't present any weaknesses and by doing so gives itself more overall strength, especially in hybrid classes. So if you're looking at bests for each class, technically Humans are the best are 4 of the 10 classes,a nd all other races are best are 2 of the other 6. So if you play any hybrid calss as anything but a human you are gimp!

[Kittycat]

I say with an alpha level of 0.05 that 99.7% of people using high school statistics will have a significant waste of life calculating the variance of the effect of rag rappies on pleasure. My chi squared test and standard error of the mean support this. Therefore, we reject the null hypothesis.

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2006-10-08 11:12, DurakkenX wrote:
statistically speaking Human is automatically the best for any hybrid class because it doesn't present any weaknesses and by doing so gives itself more overall strength, especially in hybrid classes.


That's actually rubbish in the case of HU/RA because cast would clearly excel at it.

[DurakkenX]

you're right, i wasn't thinking about that ^.^ so Human = best at 3, Cast = best at 3, Beast = best at 2, Newman = best at 2

[ChibiMyu]

To me, analyzing a game is part of the fun, but I do it more to come up with unique strategies and styles of play than to create an optimized ultimate character. I pick a class to play because I think it will be fun for me, not because it will do the most damage and pwn everyone and everything.



On 2006-10-08 07:42, -Shimarisu- wrote:

But people who use default face still really, really suck.

Also chibi people.

Also, people who are too tall.



I feel unloved. *bites ankles*

[Zinger314]

Casts make viable Hunters. I won't deny that.

But using a Cast as a Force is pointless and is hurting yourself and everyone in the group. If a FOcast ever says that he's the best Force, I quit. It's simple math. FOcasts will deal, as said. 1/4th of damage. No one can argue that.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zinger314 on 2006-10-08 12:51 ]</font>

[Mikaga]

Edit: Y'know what? Scratch this entire post. I didn't notice there were extra pages so it's probably wildly out of place in however the conversation has progressed.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mikaga on 2006-10-08 12:59 ]</font>

[Mag_Launcher]

I always favored RAmar because it had the bext mix of stats with the usefulness of techs. Now that rangers can't use techs no matter what race they are, I might as well go the whole hog and do a RAcast. I've always shunned being a force, and so, I don't need things like magic stats, because I simply won't use it.

I also have a tendency to go hunter as well, and a cast will also perfectly cover that area, though I don't really see myself going dedicated fighgunner, as it's a little too hunter-centric for my tastes. Casts are NOT going to be taken lightly as hunters, either, since they'll obviously hit more than a beast will.

But as forces... lol. More of guntecher material than anything. Also, I can imagine balancing your 36 arts limit for hybrids to be a bit of a headache.

[Cross]

On 2006-10-08 12:48, Zinger314 wrote:
But using a Cast as a Force is pointless and is hurting yourself and everyone in the group. If a FOcast ever says that he's the best Force, I quit. It's simple math. FOcasts will deal, as said. 1/4th of damage. No one can argue that.

Yes people can argue it, because it's wrong. TAP is determined generally by four things:
- Your race's natural stat, given your level and class type
- Your class level, which (as far as I know) gives even bonuses to all races for a particular class level
- Your equipment, generally including a Head Slot Unit and your weapon.
- Retial, which not many people have paid much attention to since it's not available online except for Retialide

Your natural stat does not comprise the majority of that. My character is a female Newman Force, with the highest natural TAP ni the game. Disregarding Retial for the moment, more than a third of my total TAP is from my Equipment and my Class Bonus.

As a very rough estimate, a Cast Force would have about 80% the TAP that I have, if he had the same equipment and the same Class Level. Don't get me wrong, that's very signifigant, and I pay for that edge by being the squishiest race/class in the game, but it's not nearly as drastic a difference as you're suggesting. A Cast isn't going to be able to approach a Newman's damage output with techs, but they also aren't going to get one-shotted by every boss that's a higher level than they are, and their higher survivability lets them stay in the middle of a fight without having to constantly worry about getting sucker-punched and dying, meaning that they can much more easily use close-range techs like the Gi line, or position themselves in the optimal area for party buffing/healing and enemy debuffing.

Newmans are meant to have the advantage versus all other races in the primary stat of a Force, but that doesn't mean that Forces don't benefit from all the supporting stats that Casts have that way outclass Newmans. I'd probably go for a Beast Force before a Cast Force if I wanted pure efficiency, but between those two it's in the 'too close to really notice a difference' range.

[Cause_I_Own_U]

I think as a wartecher id rather be a beast than a human, just cause of nanoblast and also that spell people keep mentioning that does more dmg based on your max hp

[Bomberto]

Operation Flamewar was a success.

By the way, Hunter Cast with a Megistal and Resta on a wand is nigh unstoppable offline.

[Nani-chan]

There are no race/job restrictions. I will be aware that certain combinations will have a easier time, but it's not everything.

Sorry for the following irrelevant metaphor but I wish to make a point.
" I can play basketball with my friends even though I am not a professional basketball player."

When I make a character, I give it life. All that matters really is that we accomplish goals, and we get stronger through the journey.

Anyways, there will probably be so many different types of personalities that we all can be happy. If I decide to make something unpopular than I'll just make friends with non-stat-elitists.

[Kaply]

Let me make the assumption that by purity of the game you're referring to people's enjoyment of the game.

With that said, not everyone enjoys a game for the same reason. Some people are stat freaks. Some people are power freaks. So people who want to delve into the stats of the game should be free to enjoy the game in that manner if they so wish.

If sega really didn't want people to care about the stats of this game, they could have eliminated all the numbers in the game.

[kazuma56]

I don't care what people say, i'm going Human Figunner because from what i've been hearing, although casts make a better offence their defense is questionable because the supposeldy have low magic resistance, which in turn, gives the humans more suvivability against enemies that constantly launch magic plus their D isn't as bad as a newman which means no "Lol 1 shoted" statements.

Again, as aforementioned, to each his/her own, I'm going to be a human Figunner regardless if it proves to be worse so then a cast figunner because IMO, looks > optimization, i'd rather look cool and do decent damage then look generic and do good damage (not knocking on your cast players... but the clothes people hacked to show us don't look good... the best design possible is like a rip of magashi....), longest parenthetical sentence ever....

[vg_geek86]

Theres nothing wrong with analyzing your character....hell, I highly encourage it. Whats fun for me is being effective, and being able to solo on the tougher, higher level missions so I can reap some goodies for myself. Given, I still like to have fun. Example from PSO, I enjoyed using my beloved byrdish*sp?*, wasnt the greatest of weapons, but it was my favorite weapon do to its looks and feel. What I would do is 'analyze' my character to be effective despite using a seemingly inferior weapon by making the best possible mag, getting a hold of one with high %'s, God items, armor etc etc etc.

Stratt on your character is a huge part of the game, but it's your choice in the end. Just try not to be the kind of guy that holds your party back.

[Kyuu]

On 2006-10-08 13:40, Cross wrote:

Yes people can argue it, because it's wrong. TAP is determined generally by four things:
- Your race's natural stat, given your level and class type
- Your class level, which (as far as I know) gives even bonuses to all races for a particular class level
- Your equipment, generally including a Head Slot Unit and your weapon.
- Retial, which not many people have paid much attention to since it's not available online except for Retialide

Your natural stat does not comprise the majority of that. My character is a female Newman Force, with the highest natural TAP ni the game. Disregarding Retial for the moment, more than a third of my total TAP is from my Equipment and my Class Bonus.

As a very rough estimate, a Cast Force would have about 80% the TAP that I have, if he had the same equipment and the same Class Level. Don't get me wrong, that's very signifigant, and I pay for that edge by being the squishiest race/class in the game, but it's not nearly as drastic a difference as you're suggesting. A Cast isn't going to be able to approach a Newman's damage output with techs, but they also aren't going to get one-shotted by every boss that's a higher level than they are, and their higher survivability lets them stay in the middle of a fight without having to constantly worry about getting sucker-punched and dying, meaning that they can much more easily use close-range techs like the Gi line, or position themselves in the optimal area for party buffing/healing and enemy debuffing.

Newmans are meant to have the advantage versus all other races in the primary stat of a Force, but that doesn't mean that Forces don't benefit from all the supporting stats that Casts have that way outclass Newmans. I'd probably go for a Beast Force before a Cast Force if I wanted pure efficiency, but between those two it's in the 'too close to really notice a difference' range.Never thought I'd say this, but...

Owned. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wet-trout.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kyuu on 2006-10-08 18:05 ]</font>

[Kismet]

Yeah...

[Pure-chan]

On 2006-10-08 14:22, Kaply wrote:
Let me make the assumption that by purity of the game you're referring to people's enjoyment of the game.

With that said, not everyone enjoys a game for the same reason. Some people are stat freaks. Some people are power freaks. So people who want to delve into the stats of the game should be free to enjoy the game in that manner if they so wish.

If sega really didn't want people to care about the stats of this game, they could have eliminated all the numbers in the game.



QFT^

There should be enough elite players/casual players/rare hunters/lobby spammers/etc. to appease pretty much everyone. It'd be nice if everyone just found a group to play with, instead of insisting that everyone else share their views.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

Purity of the game? WTF does that mean?

[Rizen]

I think it means the fun of the game.

[Gumbotron]

when the average power gamer realizes both of two things:
1) the way it's set now, exp, money and item drops are most efficiently achieved via soloing
2) soloing an online game is no fun, and, really, is the behavior of loners (please don't take offense)
they might stop worrying about things like a gimp class/race combo; or low dps weap and PAs; or male and female attack animation speeds

in all honesty, it takes at most 3 appropriately leveled characters to clear a run... (a party of 6 won't clear a run much faster than a party of 4)

As a hucaseal (gasp! not a male beast for hunter?!), I know I'll get lower atp and garbage for mst (or whatever the mag defense stat is). It's not a huge difference between killing something in 9 hits or 12 hits... Besides, lolibots are very easy on the eyes if i plan to put in 100+ hrs

[Ryogen]

Stats vs Fun

I don't understand why people take having better or the best stats over fun. Then you see yourself doing and endless grinding fest of some sort.

[Pure-chan]

...Were the posters fretting about "the purity of the game" logging onto a different PSO than the rest of us? For me, the "purity" of PSO lasted about 3 minutes after I signed onto DCv1 for the first time. ...then Red Yoshi jumped into my open game and FSOD'd everyone. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif

If PSU is so clean that the biggest concern of the PSOW faithful is "elitists" making the game too serious, then ST has made some serious progress, for which we should all be thankful.

Can anyone name a situation on PSO in which their race/class combo effected their ability to join a game ...other than possibly challenge mode?

Anti-optimization posts/topics are seeming more and more like the fad of the month. Here's the real difference between Purists and Elitests.

Elitest: "You're playing the game wrong if you don't optimize _______ equip."

Purists: "You're playing the game wrong if you optimize _______ equip."


http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pure-chan on 2006-10-09 13:48 ]</font>

[adamgnome104]

You know on second thought, I realized that people who don't play like me will still be fun to play with, and if they're not its so easy to not play with people you don't like it's pointless to complain about it.

In the end it's a videogame, I don't think people shoudl become self rightous about how the game should be played.

[Zorafim]

I'm just posting because I love the name of the topic, but I may as well try and add something to it...

I myself greatly enjoy stat maxing, but to a point. If I have to wear metal underwear and a pointy hat because it gives me a few stat points more than the heavy armor and the cape, I'm going for the armor. However, if there are two weapons that look neat, and I like one of them due to the look and the other one due to the stats, I'll go for the stats if they're noticable enough and if it doesn't look too much worse. I myself don't think elitism is going to get too bad in this game due to its casual playability, though.

[Jife_Jifremok]

Statistical optimizing is unlikely to dentrimentally affect the enjoyment of combat. However, a presence of absurd or ugly equipment having noticably superior statistical capabilities to the more preferable-looking equipment may dentrimentally affect the enjoyment if the skill factor (actual Guardian's combat performance which is measurable only by data from prior battles, which may be unreliable) is not sufficiently important, such as in an instance of the aesthetically appealing weapon dealing only miniscule damage compared to the ugly one, or the enemy using cheap attacks that are impossible to dodge.

EXTENSION: Statistical analysis can enhance the enjoyment of those who prefer to analyze and optimize their statistical capabilities, though it is still best advised that Guardians optimize their own combat performance to minimize the need for higher DFP, EVP, Mates, etc. So long as the analytical Guardians do not excessively prioritize optimal efficiency to the point of excluding non-analytical combat personnel during sorties, and the non-statistics-oriented Guardians do not excessively impede the efficiency of their partners, interference and annoyance by either party should be minimal.

...
Whew. Speech like that should be reserved for metallic beings that are not required to breathe.
I mean, This kind of talking is for robots that don't need lungs!



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jife_Jifremok on 2006-10-09 21:33 ]</font>

[Zorafim]

I couldn't read that without laughing. That was great.
I wish I could speak like that for more than three minutes at a time...

[Jasam]

Some people find fun in optimising their killing speed...

Some are 100% about looks...

I personly think that as long as the charcter is usable endgame, its ok...

However, you MIGHT want to take stats into account, if it turns out for example, that in the hardest of the games missions once they are released, a Focast can't kill anything in less then 30 techs with the most powerful spell in the game ^-^'

Of course, thats an extreme example, and people have no Idea yet.

All I know is I'll be a Hunter... and NOT a human/Newman

Now it comes down to looking cool/kicking ass more ^-^

[Rejor11]

On 2006-10-08 07:42, -Shimarisu- wrote:

But people who use default face still really, really suck.

Also chibi people.

Also, people who are too tall.



Hell, everyone sucks ^.^

[oNijohso]

HUnewman
RAbeast
FOcast

Gimp Squad, Hoooooo!

But HUnewman has it the worst, at least FOcast has survivability and support techs going for it, and RAbeast has damage output. HUnewman is trumped in every aspect, well except EVA TAP and MST and those wont help much as a hunter if you have low HP.

Speaking from experience also, the damage that FOnewmans put out has a hefty price, bosses rape you pretty quickly if you're unlucky enough to get in their way.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: oNijohso on 2006-10-10 09:28 ]</font>

[physic]

focast will probably have things in which they excel, i think one person explained it pretty well. also as some weaps appear to be fo only say teh bow, which probably means its req stat will still be ata (as in you need this much ata to EQ it) cast will be able to equip the best bows the at the earliest possible level, and have 2nd best ata to back it up, lets assume now xbows will be similar, that will give cast the ability to use a fast 1 hand rod and a gun. does this make them better perse? I dunno but it makes them able to do something differently than a newman which may be useful depending on the style of the player and the situation. Also keep in mind that dying lowers your ranking and how much job exp you get. so yeah zoom boom big dmg compared to death or being able to take some ae to do a cure spell so people dont die at the end of the day, both will effect your efficency as in how much exp you get, also keep in mind that getting srank requires only a certain time, doesnt matter if you beat it by a lot or 1 second, so the question is will focast stop me from getting srank, if not is that 1 minute difference in finishing of the level outweighing the 15% less chance of dying and messing up the ranking. (of course you can bring scapes if you want, but since there is no telepipe, you will still have a limit on how much you can die, even should your wallet be able to handle the cost)

But back to the real point, outside of challenge it wont matter much, you outlevel the missions, and can out eq them, so yeah your prolly gonna be able to get srank wo a problem

[Neith]

If anything, playing a character like a FOcast, or HUnewearl (using the PSO terms here http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif ) should be interesting, make the game more challenging.

At the end of the day, you can't bully people into making 'LOLZ OPTIMUM' classes, because some people will tell you to GTFO and make whatever they want.

Hell, if it wasn't for not being able to use S-Rank Twin Claws, I'd make a Female Beast Wartecher, I may still do it if I can think of another weapon type instead.

As mentioned, a FOcast might only do 1/4 damage of a Newman, but a Newman (judging by the stats at least) might get annihilated a lot easier http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wacko.gif Having high DFP/decent level techs was what made HUnewearl a good substitute for a FO in PSO.

I kinda wish people would just sit and play the game, rather than bitching about stats.

And if I hear 'DPS' one more time... http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

[DreamLocke]

I started PSO with a RAmar and loved him. I played the dreamcast version the first day it was released. At first it sucked being a ranger because it seemed like we had no cool rares, but I stuck it out, got to level 100, and moved on to v2. Made a HUmar because I had blade-envy, leveled him up too, but still RAmar was my favorite.

Then I read somewhere that RAmars were gimped characters with horrible stats. It messed me up and I made a RAcast because they were the best statistical rangers. I quit my RAmar. I missed resta. I also missed shifta/deband even though RAcast could do the same dmg without the weak RAmar buffs. I even made a HUcast because it was posted HUmars weren't efficient hunters. I became a stat whore. But truthfully, I got bored because I liked the numbers, not the character.

I remembered why I stuck with my gimpy RAmar so long. I liked him. I didn't know at the time he was inferior stat-wise. He was just cool and I put a lot of time into him. While number-crunching is a viable strategy, what makes a game maintain its longevity is the fun factor. If you're not having fun, why bother?

[Zinger314]

To those saying that FOcasts are better than FOnewm because they can survive damage...uh...Forces shouldn't be taking damage. That's why they are Range attackers (Don't bother using the Dam- techs as rationale. I hear they don't even cause status effects!). The only problem I had as a Force in PSO was obviously Dark Falz.

Also, Rendis and Dizas should also alleviate any...problems.


In addition, things can't kill you if they die first, which a FOnewm can do more efficiently. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zinger314 on 2006-10-10 13:35 ]</font>

[Pure-chan]

On 2006-10-10 09:35, DreamLocke wrote:
I remembered why I stuck with my gimpy RAmar so long. I liked him. I didn't know at the time he was inferior stat-wise. He was just cool and I put a lot of time into him. While number-crunching is a viable strategy, what makes a game maintain its longevity is the fun factor. If you're not having fun, why bother?




So you went back to your 'gimpy' RAmar because you liked him, which is great btw. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif I have to ask though, after you went back, did you only equip him with say... a lockgun +3, a lv. 5 mag and a giga shield, then go running down into Ult Seabed, or did you worry about the numbers?

...I'm guessing you took the numbers into consideration, since the alternative increases the chances of you dying every few seconds (which isn't most PSO'ers idea of a good time). Chances are you equipped some items appropriate for your level and went on about your business. IMO - that is the ideal mix. Playing what you like. Effectively.

The problem with purist viewpoint on stat analysis is the perception that people are only concerned about stats in order to stat-whore/exp-hog/etc. As often as not, the exact opposite is true.

If you look at the PSO character class selection screen, the classes/races are listed in order, basically from least to most complex. Hunter/Ranger/Force. HUmar/HUcast/HUnewarl/HUcaseal and so on. Since playing a HUcaseal is pretty different than playing a HUmar, you'll eventually need to understand how the stats factor in on some level unless you really, really like dying.

The game is based on numbers. Ideally, looking at them shouldn’t preclude enjoying your char. On GC I played a lot as a HUcl, a RAcl and a FOmarl. (Hardly the default protoforms for their respective classes) ...No my HUcl didn't do as much damage as a HUcast. ...No my RAcl didn't have the highest HP in the game. I played them because I liked them and thought that they were a good fit for how I enjoy playing. The nice thing is, with a good understanding of the stats for each class, you can often play a so-called "lesser build," without needing to worry about getting shafted by players looking to hog every kill.

It's inevitable that elitists will figure out exploits to get more kills and level faster. Discouraging FAQs and drop charts just limits normal player from fully understanding the potential of their chars. Likewise, failing to provide an alternate to obvious choices - ex. male beast HU -just encourages players to make that many more cookie cutter chars.

The nice thing about PSO was that you could play the game seriously when you felt like it, or casually when you didn't - often times with the same group. I'm hoping for more of the same with PSU.

IMO, topics that dump on people for their play preferences help to prevent that from happening by polarizing everyone into opposing groups. It’d be nice if we could drop the pretense on both sides and coexist.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pure-chan on 2006-10-10 13:36 ]</font>

[Skorpius]

Wait, so elitists are already fucking up the game?

[Mag_Launcher]

Well... PSU's new "mission structure" doesn't exactly encourage casual screwing around anymore. Seeing as every outing is now timed and ranked, other people will often want you to rush, and may get pissed off at you if you didn't know a certain place or something. And if you die, no longer will you get "hold on, I'll revive you" (or just instant reverser) but instead you'll get "AWWWW WTF, YOU COST US S-RANK, NOOB!!" and you might get kicked out of the game, since party leaders can now kick people out. Yeah, don't piss off the kid with the "kick player" button. Why the hell did they even add it? Sure, makes sense if a person came in being a dick, but more often than not, theres gonna be someone using that for his own purpose, like say, kick everyone out before a boss is killed so only he gets the exp and what it drops.

[DurakkenX]

please shut up till you play the damn game v.v

noone in their right mind would play S-Rank missions for the end mission Reward as far as we've seen. JXP and mst are so much easier to get via C-rank missions than it is to get them via A-rank. The rewards for doing A-rank just are not there and I can not imagine S-rank missions will be any different.

[Mag_Launcher]

Oh hey, guess what, I HAVE PLAYED IT, WHAT NOW? The S-Rank I refer to is the end-of-mission score tally that determines your your reward of meseta and job points. THUS, FOR EXAMPLE, GETTING S-RANK SCORE IN A C-RANK MISSION, THINK ABOUT THAT.

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/2741/youseenowls8.th.jpg (http://img183.imageshack.us/my.php?image=youseenowls8.jpg)

So maybe YOU should shut up before you play the game. Or, NO U.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mag_Launcher on 2006-10-11 23:35 ]</font>

[Saner]

On 2006-10-10 13:54, Skorpius wrote:
Wait, so elitists are already fucking up the game?



elitists corrupt themselves.



other people will still have fun with whatever they choose. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Saner]

On 2006-10-10 16:27, Mag_Launcher wrote:
Well... PSU's new "mission structure" doesn't exactly encourage casual screwing around anymore. Seeing as every outing is now timed and ranked, other people will often want you to rush,



missions are only timed offline, not online.

[Artorius]

I agree that it's up to the skill of the player, and how they work with other teammates.
Artorius(PSU Name: Nemesis Enforcer)
Apply today for Cobra Clan the adult only Xbox360 PSU clan.
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http://stepheng1964.spaces.live.com/

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Artorius on 2006-10-12 08:35 ]</font>