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View Full Version : 360 Beta - Tons of Hunters, but my Force > them all.



Nestahima
Oct 15, 2006, 08:09 PM
I've been partying with random people, all of which seem to be hunters, and I noticed something.

My Force's damage > all of theirs.

Now, I realize the whole glass cannon mentality, but it seems like Forces are unreasonably powerful.

Personally, I refuse to make a Hunter because there are 9 billion of them. (Not to mention I hate melee combat.) My Ranger, however, seems incredibly lacking in power compared to my Force. My Ranger uses Dual Pistols, and my machine gun (the Autogun bought from the Clyez City Store) doesn't even work for some reason. It has no PP at all.

Irreguardless, my Force seems unreasonably powerful. I'll probably use a Force in the real version, but what are your thoughts on the balancing of classes?

darthplagis
Oct 15, 2006, 08:12 PM
it depends on the race aswell as the class as to wether you have the power to do what you may expect.

i personally am a HU but i'd love a force but since its only online for another couple o days im sticking HU till retail is out

adamgnome104
Oct 15, 2006, 08:13 PM
I love forces who resta everyone a lot!

Ether
Oct 15, 2006, 08:14 PM
Hunters get a lot stronger later on and pass force damage in most situations

Rizen
Oct 15, 2006, 08:15 PM
Well...I will say this, in almost any game, magic damage dealer usually do more damage than melees at first, but later on it evens out.
That said, enjoy it while you can. Hunters will start doing large amounts of damage as they get higher. And the fact that PAs can hit multiple times at multiple points (if the enemies is mult-layered) will help with there damage. Sure Forces will be hitting around 100-300 at first with spells while hunters are hiting 18-27 dmg, but when you add when a PA is used that hit 5+ times x 2 to 4 for each part of the enemy, it adds up.
Dont stroke your epeen just yet.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Rizen on 2006-10-15 18:18 ]</font>

Flamingo99
Oct 15, 2006, 08:15 PM
I haven't played force, only a little bit of ranger and hunter. If they truly are overpowered (which many people, including you, are saying) then I think Sega should tone them down a bit. Maybe the enemies elemental resistance is low in rack C or B missions? Maybe you won't do extreme amounts of damage when you get to A or S rank missions. Its just speculation though.

Numnuttz
Oct 15, 2006, 08:20 PM
when i tried playin as a force it was fun.i have a feeling my main is going to be force now because well resta is cheaper than a ton of monomates lol

Nestahima
Oct 15, 2006, 08:21 PM
True Rizen, very true.

I guess we'll have to wait until higher levels to really see, but remember, Forces get AoE spells too. All of the RaXXX spells are AoE and can be bought for 1500 mesta in Clyez. My Foie is hitting for 150+ damage at level 6, and my Rafoie hits AoE for about 115 or so. Hunters at that level with Swords and PA's really don't do as much. Thats where my concern came from.

darthplagis
Oct 15, 2006, 08:25 PM
yeah but i can normally wipe out a crowd @ lvl 14ish with my single dagger PA (lvl 13 now i think) but on B class forces own over HU and RA for sure

Rizen
Oct 15, 2006, 08:30 PM
On 2006-10-15 18:21, Nestahima wrote:
True Rizen, very true.

I guess we'll have to wait until higher levels to really see, but remember, Forces get AoE spells too. All of the RaXXX spells are AoE and can be bought for 1500 mesta in Clyez. My Foie is hitting for 150+ damage at level 6, and my Rafoie hits AoE for about 115 or so. Hunters at that level with Swords and PA's really don't do as much. Thats where my concern came from.t


Yeah true but Force AoE doesnt hit multiple parts of enemies sadly. You will notice if you fighting the dragon (if anyone able to fight it) Hunters will be hiting like 3 parts of it while Force only hits 1 part. Overall, the damage is very close.
Also, you have to factor in cast and recoil time.

Ryven
Oct 15, 2006, 08:33 PM
Well, like many have said, it usually evens out later on. But since this is a new game that we still practically know nothing about, it could be different. But, I think after DC PSO they realized that you couldn't just give HU's and RA's the max level techs and expect FO's to be happy with it. So they tried to iron that out in v2. And now, it seems they're about to get it right. Techs should be doing quite a bit of damage early on, because quite frankly they're supposed to be powerful single attacks. But with multi-hitting weapons I don't think they'll be far behind.

xzeekzx
Oct 15, 2006, 08:38 PM
I agree, i think it will even out in the end. Plus, hunters provide something for the monsters to attack... i mean so they might not do the exact damage or excell over the forces, but hey, their providing more than just numbers http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif they are the bait

Ninpo_Tamashii
Oct 15, 2006, 09:09 PM
I've only unfortunately been able to look at a multitude of videos...and from what I've seen there is a more "role" oriented flavor about game play this time around, which makes things a bit nicer IMO, as people can do 'what they do best' rather than "EVERYTHING UNDERTHE SUN" It gives individuality between people.

Rangers seem to now take a more supportive role with the status effects theri weapons can bring and the many diverse types that makes Hunters be more meat shields, knocking the enemies down whilst Forces appear to deal that distance damage like rangers but with more direct buff and Healing capablity.

Maybe its redundatn but it seems its more defined, A group of 3 good hunters, two well rangers and a force that is support based seem like they could rock any instance of enemy(ies) they could come across in this game. I'm looking forwards to it very muchso.

darthplagis
Oct 15, 2006, 09:29 PM
maybe a team of 2 HU 2 RA and 2 FO would be better as the HU can run ahead as meat sheilds with BIG weps while the rangers add covering fire with elemental status and one force as attacking and one as a buff/healer with the heal force as leader he can direct the taem more efficiently as he can chill from the action a bit and look at the bigger team based picture.

this WONT be effective in the beta as expert classes dont exist so the pure/forte classes wont be available

Tystys
Oct 15, 2006, 09:34 PM
Isn't there already a thread about this, -_-

Ninpo_Tamashii
Oct 15, 2006, 09:38 PM
@Tystys IF so I didnt' see it O.o, just a thread bytching about *lack* of forces, not that they were uber -shrugs-

Tystys
Oct 15, 2006, 09:41 PM
Do we really need another thread bitching about some feature in the game?

NiteOwl
Oct 15, 2006, 10:00 PM
In the beta, I'm playing a force and my friend is playing a hunter and we're playing together. We've both noticed that I'm doing a lot more damage at this point, but I've just got a feeling it's going to even out or go totally in the other direction later on, like it did in PSO. Once enemies start having more elemental resistances and such, my techs will probably start doing very little damage and I'll have to rely on support techs whenever they get into the game. I think there will eventually be a proper balance.

AlphaMinotaux
Oct 15, 2006, 10:24 PM
every single game Magic users will always do more dmg later on, and its fair like that, most people want to be melee anyway so its some sort of pursuasion to play a magic user.

oronll
Oct 15, 2006, 11:16 PM
lol no it doesnt .. your force may hit for 100 something everytime .. but my hunter hits for 80+ three times every combo and 4 160s with a lvl 15 rising strike ..


hunters can do more damage

CpwninOBrien
Oct 15, 2006, 11:17 PM
well see need to see max stats before we know for sure http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Blenjar
Oct 15, 2006, 11:27 PM
All I can say is been a force gets boring because all you do is heal and do attack from afar...been a hunter is stuff cause ur in the fight and beating the (insert bad word here) out of them and picking up w/e that drops.

The question is;
Do you want to fight afar and miss out on all drops unless you run through the fight and get hit by a random monster, etc etc...okay the point is hunter are fun.
Or be a hunter.

Alexandrious1
Oct 15, 2006, 11:29 PM
On 2006-10-15 21:27, Blenjar wrote:
All I can say is been a force gets boring because all you do is heal and do attack from afar...been a hunter is stuff cause ur in the fight and beating the (insert bad word here) out of them and picking up w/e that drops.

The question is;
Do you want to fight afar and miss out on all drops unless you run through the fight and get hit by a random monster, etc etc...okay the point is hunter are fun.
Or be a hunter.



Play with friends or random groups who has items set on random distribution, or make your own.

Problem solved.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Alexandrious1 on 2006-10-15 21:29 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Alexandrious1 on 2006-10-15 21:30 ]</font>

Spellbinder
Oct 15, 2006, 11:33 PM
Being Lv 54 on the Import, I can comfortably say things seem fairly balanced. Well equipped Hunters, to me, seem on par if not higher in damage than Forces, but then again Forces have a slight advantage against tougher enemies with high physical defense. There are also more techs to be released so time will have to tell us how the two really stack up to each other.

Arcturus
Oct 15, 2006, 11:41 PM
What about Rangers, Spellbinder?

Astarin
Oct 16, 2006, 12:14 AM
The casting and recoil time for Forces evens out the damage. TECNICS are slow. The time it takes my Force to use Diga once (say, 80 damage) is just slightly shorter than a Hunter using a full 3 hit saber combo (say, 20 damage). And the Hunter can add a photon art to that combo for more damage.

NiteOwl
Oct 16, 2006, 12:29 AM
Yeah. And because of their slowness, techs can be pretty hard to aim. Especially against those jumpy guys in the Sleeping Warriors mission. I hate those guys. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Krupp
Oct 16, 2006, 12:44 AM
Red Nanoblast damage ftw. It's probably because the HUbeasts aren't lvl 20 yet. If we are talking about the 360 version anyway..

parabolee
Oct 16, 2006, 12:55 AM
Hate to be the language police but not only is "irreguardless" not a word, but if it was a word it's spelt incorrectly.

Ryogen
Oct 16, 2006, 01:19 AM
You guys got to remember that people are experminting what they want to be. This won't be the outcome when the game comes out. People would prefeer levling up 1 or 2 to see how things go. I like using forces as well as being a hunter and ranger.

ProfessorZ
Oct 16, 2006, 01:35 AM
LOL do Mizuraki defense B and come tell me again that your force > hunters

FenixStryk
Oct 16, 2006, 02:50 AM
Forces do have punch but the time it takes to recast spells is fairly long. On the other hand, Rangers have no worries since they can always keep a steady stream of damage to stop foes in their tracks. Plus, with ice enchantments on Mechguns and Twin Handguns, you won't even have to backpedal! =]

UltraDeeDer
Oct 16, 2006, 03:53 AM
I like differnt spells for the Canes/Rods are better than the bullets you get. Just for variety.

Niki
Oct 16, 2006, 04:37 AM
On 2006-10-15 18:09, Nestahima wrote:
Personally, I refuse to make a Hunter because there are 9 billion of them. (Not to mention I hate melee combat.) My Ranger, however, seems incredibly lacking in power compared to my Force. My Ranger uses Dual Pistols, and my machine gun (the Autogun bought from the Clyez City Store) doesn't even work for some reason. It has no PP at all.

There are some excellent threads regarding the proper play of Rangers further back in the forum. Look in those dated 9.10-9.20, if I'm not mistaken. I'd be happy to back you up on a mission if you're curious.

Also, a Force's immense TAP exists to compensate for the fact that they can now be pwned by a single Rappy. I don't think there is a balancing issue there.

Nestahima
Oct 16, 2006, 05:26 AM
On 2006-10-15 22:55, parabolee wrote:
Hate to be the language police but not only is "irreguardless" not a word, but if it was a word it's spelt incorrectly.




Granted, it is spelled wrong.

Hate to break it to you, but it IS a word.

Irregardless:
regardless; a combination of irrespective and regardless sometimes used humorously

DurakkenX
Oct 16, 2006, 06:00 AM
forces are only improportionally powerful in a place like Hakura because the mobs have stupid high defense.

but at the high lvls forces do about 800-1000dmg per cast (not including some >.>) and with 10% ele twin sabers i do 150 a hit on reguluar which is 6 hits and then 300-400 with PA which is like a dozen or so more hits. So dmg wise Hunters are actually doing more dmg and i'd have to say Rangers are actually doing even more damage as they attack even faster than most Hunters and do 100+ a hit

Forces actually are shafted big time in this game if you really think about it right now.

Kent
Oct 16, 2006, 06:40 AM
Things seem pretty fair in the beta, so far. Against tougher enemies, Forces have the natural advantage, because they don't have to worry about Techniques missing (assuming the projectile connects to the target, that is), and they ignore physical defense on top of that. So, in B-rank missions, Forces will be at an advantage until the Hunters cope with that - my Hunter on the beta, though, tends to do quite a bit of damage with level 13 Rising Strike.

As far as Rangers go, I actually like having them around, this time (as opposed to early versions of PSO, where they were almost worthless, and later versions where they were overpowered). They're basically a support role, not a damage role; my Plasma Hit on my Handgun triggers fairly often as a Hunter, and Rangers seem to have status effects kick in a good bit when peppering enemies, and those effects sure do come in handy.

Mikaga
Oct 16, 2006, 07:21 AM
forces are only improportionally powerful in a place like Hakura because the mobs have stupid high defense.

but at the high lvls forces do about 800-1000dmg per cast (not including some >.>) and with 10% ele twin sabers i do 150 a hit on reguluar which is 6 hits and then 300-400 with PA which is like a dozen or so more hits. So dmg wise Hunters are actually doing more dmg and i'd have to say Rangers are actually doing even more damage as they attack even faster than most Hunters and do 100+ a hit

Forces actually are shafted big time in this game if you really think about it right now.
This is what I've been afraid of for a long time. In PSO (at least v2 and what I've seen of Blue Burst) Forces were the game's joke:

• They got absolutely no multi-hitting weapons
• Half the armour in the game was "For everything except Forces."
• Every single attack tech in the game (bar Razonde on De Rol and Vol Opt) was worthless once the Force hit level 10 and picked up their first Saber.
• Techs took as long to use as a 3-hit combo, each hit of said combo doing more damage than any attack tech could.
• The remaining techs (Resta/Anti/Reverser/Shifta/Deband/Jellen/Zalure/Ryuker) could all be cast more than capably by any non-android.
• Low HP.
• Laughable defense.
• Disastrous ATP.

Forces are the game's natural wussies. That's to be expected in Universe naturally. If what us non-importers have been hearing is correct, they're actually more squishy than their Online incarnation/s.

Thus, to compensate, they should be capable of alternate use, no? This time around, it looks like they do get exclusivity to the healing and support techniques, but if that was the only change, nobody would want to be the party's cure hoar.

Forces really should be dealing the same damage output as Hunters. Maybe more, but that would make the Hunters tanks and "nuke defenders" over damage dealers. They certainly shouldn't deal less damage in the same period of time. That is probably the biggest mistake ever made by Phantasy Star Online and (when it comes down to hit) most of the Final Fantasy series past the first thee hours.

Velocity_7
Oct 16, 2006, 08:26 AM
I would advise well against believing any class is the best, especially FO. Yes, PSU has made it easy on the beginners so that FOs have a serious advantage in the early stages, but much later their DFP takes a serious hit as well as END (endurance stat prevents status effects such as the infamous Megid insta-death). HUs and RAs start off weaker because they were overpowered back in PSO days.

And to anyone who's concerned about how FOs are putting out more damage than HUs/RAs, think about if it's usually possible for them to do it if the monster keeps hitting them. Right now, Fighgunners have twice as much HP as Fortetechers, and have more DFP and END. They'd be able to handle a lot of mobs, but once in a while they do need to heal and it's preferable to have someone with Resta rather than having to rely on dimates a lot.

On the other hand though, Fortegunners can deal with Megid guys, having a lot more opportunities to dodge. After the changes on 10/13, they use less ammo per shot, do the same amount of damage as HU/FO in the same time period, and inflict more status effects, thus making them quite versatile. This class would be the middle-man in terms of ATP and DFP, but because of that they aren't really guys who can solo.

And finally, Fortetechers can deal massive damage but they need someone else to keep the monster distracted because, when you're casting Foie or Zonde and some giant Megid ball of doom is headed your way, you can't cancel a tech just to dodge. Even if you do use Nosu techs to deal with enemies, PP usage must be pretty high, thus encouraging use of less PP-intensive techs.

The other thing to note is that I've only covered 3 expert classes that have been running so far; there are many more, and their attributes are different compared to these three. And sometimes these attributes make for better or worse classes, depending on how you use them.

If anyone is concerned about balance as it is right now, don't worry as the game has been modified extensively so that it would be possible to change class statistics on the server and have them apply to all clients.

TwilightSea
Oct 16, 2006, 08:32 AM
Maybe; but it would be nice if my bloody SE bullets would go off more often though. I would like to see a bit increase in damage for Ranger, but I'm sure this will be fixed in the expert classes.

Decurae
Oct 16, 2006, 08:48 AM
Forces should do massive burst damage, providing extra damage to the enemy from afar. Without a hunter or two to block the enemies, the force would have some trouble if it got caught between a few enemies. Every class has its "role," and if it balances out in the end, even better.

EnixBelmont
Oct 16, 2006, 09:07 AM
I love the balance in this game, thus far. I don't know how expert classes, especially protranser, will factor in, but the base class balance is great.

Cause_I_Own_U
Oct 16, 2006, 12:47 PM
MMO's have it all wrong, casters should not be out damage melee's by a ton, it should be even, casters may be a glass cannon but they have plenty of defenses to keep them at range, debuffs snares roots heal spells.........all that is equal to a fighters armor or in alot of cases more usefull

Id go as far as to say melee should out damage casters because casters always get more survivability from geting to attack from ranged and also more utility, althought this game is alot diffrent because mobs dont just sit on the tank, can you imagin ffxi or WoW if warriors didnt have any taunt mwahahha

So what i think they should do is give force a nice self only hp buff so they can take some hits because there is no warrior there to taunt stuff off him



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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cause_I_Own_U on 2006-10-16 10:59 ]</font>

Cause_I_Own_U
Oct 16, 2006, 12:51 PM
Seriously though welcome to asian online rpg's/mmo's

90% of them start out with casters doing way more damage then at the end everyone is equal, or the melee's are the best at everything

Beck
Oct 16, 2006, 12:56 PM
Force = healing mules

Cause_I_Own_U
Oct 16, 2006, 01:04 PM
On 2006-10-16 06:26, Velocity_7 wrote:
I would advise well against believing any class is the best, especially FO. Yes, PSU has made it easy on the beginners so that FOs have a serious advantage in the early stages, but much later their DFP takes a serious hit as well as END (endurance stat prevents status effects such as the infamous Megid insta-death). HUs and RAs start off weaker because they were overpowered back in PSO days.

And to anyone who's concerned about how FOs are putting out more damage than HUs/RAs, think about if it's usually possible for them to do it if the monster keeps hitting them. Right now, Fighgunners have twice as much HP as Fortetechers, and have more DFP and END. They'd be able to handle a lot of mobs, but once in a while they do need to heal and it's preferable to have someone with Resta rather than having to rely on dimates a lot.

On the other hand though, Fortegunners can deal with Megid guys, having a lot more opportunities to dodge. After the changes on 10/13, they use less ammo per shot, do the same amount of damage as HU/FO in the same time period, and inflict more status effects, thus making them quite versatile. This class would be the middle-man in terms of ATP and DFP, but because of that they aren't really guys who can solo.

And finally, Fortetechers can deal massive damage but they need someone else to keep the monster distracted because, when you're casting Foie or Zonde and some giant Megid ball of doom is headed your way, you can't cancel a tech just to dodge. Even if you do use Nosu techs to deal with enemies, PP usage must be pretty high, thus encouraging use of less PP-intensive techs.

The other thing to note is that I've only covered 3 expert classes that have been running so far; there are many more, and their attributes are different compared to these three. And sometimes these attributes make for better or worse classes, depending on how you use them.

If anyone is concerned about balance as it is right now, don't worry as the game has been modified extensively so that it would be possible to change class statistics on the server and have them apply to all clients.



Wait so you're saying fortegunners out damage Hu's and Fo's but also get awesome status effects? Doesnt sound very balanced to me

Akaimizu
Oct 16, 2006, 01:26 PM
Another thing, a lot of hunters don't use their special attacks enough, as well. Weapons and Weapon attachments are a big factor as they grow. Specials should be used regularly, just not as every attack so that your PP goes.

Sometimes a Hunter's weapon ability makes all the difference. Like using Raising Slash on a SEED mid-boss plant when it's starts to wind up for a 360 attack. A good proper timing to start the Raising Slash and put it down for a time, so everybody can have a field day with em. It also stops them from firing blue orbs at all the people who are trying to fight other monsters.

I still think it works well with Hunters being the typical single monster (or couple monsters in a clump) damage dealers. Rangers utilizing high accurracy and powerful weapons to do a little less damage (over time), but have the accurracy to have more hits hit harder (which is used for interrupting attacks, and stunning flying creatures, etc). Forces healing, doing area attacks, buffs, and debuffs. Those were my observations, with the playtime I put in. They seem to be viable methods.

I like the way you also have control on what you really want to specialize in. That means, you could try to go and be one of the mightiest Buff/debuffers, or go simply for damage dealing. It's not like you specialize more or less by luck, as to which spells the game decides to give you the higher technique levels, like in PSO.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2006-10-16 11:29 ]</font>

Mitz
Oct 16, 2006, 01:35 PM
Forces did 80 damage in forest while hunters and rangers did what? 30? It all balances out. Just wait and see.

Akaimizu
Oct 16, 2006, 01:44 PM
I normally don't count a single slash of a hunter compared to a single use of the wand from a force. I normally count what a hunter can do with a combination that consists of Slash, Slash, Special, since I figure the Hunters would pour it on with that kind of ferocity (at least). If the weapons+attachments are good enough to do decent damage from the regular attack, it's a pretty nice number when one single full combination is used. Not to mention, I find the specials affect monsters at a better rate than spells can. If a spell doesn't kill (at lower level force attacks), the monsters seem to keep coming fast. For a hunter, even with low-level Raising Slash, the monsters' are often disabled on their back, trying to get up.

I find that rangers tend to have the lower damage early game, with the weapons I've been able to experiment with. But they tend to hit hard (for their typical damage) often, interrupting a monster attack or momentarily stoppin them, a lot. I can forsee them as true *hunter* rescuers if they get in over their head. Especially with the ability to stop monster attacks from a distance where the same level force is highly likely not to stop the attack, if the damage isn't enough to kill them. The monster will generally still follow through quickly, unless the force gets lucky and something like barta freezes them.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2006-10-16 11:53 ]</font>

Velocity_7
Oct 17, 2006, 07:24 AM
On 2006-10-16 11:04, Cause_I_Own_U wrote:
Wait so you're saying fortegunners out damage Hu's and Fo's but also get awesome status effects? Doesnt sound very balanced to me



I said they deal the same amount of damage in a same time period, but I didn't say they outdamaged HUs and FOs. And usually though that'll depend on their accuracy a lot more, especially with machineguns. Otherwise, instead of dealing out a lot of 50s every half-second, they could be dealing 0s. 0s are not good at all for your health.

If I had to rate damage scaling, it'd be HU ~= RA < FO, but in terms of survivability rate (at expert levels), it'd be HU > RA > FO.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Velocity_7 on 2006-10-17 05:26 ]</font>