Ok I am convinced twin weapons are useless.

[Marks]

Twin weapons attack twice as much as their single counterparts, but do half as much damage. That is already enough reason to throw them out. Even if they did the same damage per second, isn't it better to have a gun in your offhand than nothing? Regardless, it goes further. Now it is debatable that twin weapons do slightly more damage overall than their single counterparts, but I have yet to see this happen. First of all let's compare how long it takes to do 3 hits with a saber as opposed to 6 hits with a twin saber, it seems the single saber does it slightly faster. This is assured by the wonderful "hit delay". Everytime you hit something with your weapon, your character freezes for a split second. Well guess what twin weapons get twice as many hits per combo, and twice as many delays, making the combo pretty long. So there you have it, single weapons do MORE damage, and they do the damage FASTER, and to top it all off you get a gun in your offhand for fun.

And the halting enemy attacks by more hits is also invalid. You MIGHT be able to delay the enemy long enough to finish your entire 6 hit or 7 hit combo and then some PA, but after that you get hit. In comparison, a single weapon will do a 3 hit combo and PA that does more damage, in less time, which means lower chance of being hit or at least the same chance.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marks on 2006-10-29 23:06 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marks on 2006-10-29 23:19 ]</font>

[Bibberz]

dont the multiple hits 'stun' enemies at a higher rate (halt their attack). I thought that in order to stop an enemy attack you had to hit them a number of times while they 'prepped', but this is just how I thought it worked.
I use Knux anywho so this doesnt apply to me =P

[Pengfishh]

There's a thread around here, someone will post it soon enough, that details the clocked times it takes to execute a combo with each weapon type. Twin daggers were the fastest by far, which means most damage per second.

But! It's all up to preference. I like having a gun in my offhand and using a single dagger, but I also like using spears and will eventually get around to PROBABLY using some of the twin weapons. Preference. Besides, it's not much of an issue in a party of six where the main focus is tag shit before shit dies.

[Marks]

I read that topic, and I am not exactly sure if those times are between combos or actual hits... but either way I look at it those charts still favor single handed weapons in terms of damage per second. Yes Twin daggers do more attacks per second than anything else, but they have almost half the atp of single daggers, and single daggers attack pretty fast anyway, making single daggers have more dps than twin daggers.

Also I don't know if the guy who did those tests took into account the delay of hitting something, I think he was testing just on air. With double delays for twin weapons, single weapons do even more dps! There is just no hope for twin weapons...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marks on 2006-10-29 23:29 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marks on 2006-10-29 23:31 ]</font>

[DoubleJG]

On 2006-10-29 23:10, Pengfishh wrote:
it's not much of an issue in a party of six where the main focus is tag shit before shit dies.


So true.

[Ryogen]

Heh your wrong man. Did you do any research to back this up? When I mean "research" I mean good detailed ones. Are you using weapons of the same Grade? What kind? Etc. It seems you ran off your last topic asking the question if they are useless. Not trying to diss you are anything, but your off on many points concluding that they are useless. I would show you why now, but I need to get some sleep. If it's not already done by the time I wake up, I will do a test and give you results on anything why you think they are useless and try to prove you wrong.

I wouldn't be worrying about which is better anyway. All weapons drop down to what you like and not necessarly how it does compaired to 1 weapon vs Duel weapons. Remember this is PSU, you play what you like. Ping does sorta have a point too.

Anyway if there is no one to explain to you in about 7 hours, I'll work some info up for you marks. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif I'm not saying it's better, I'm not saying it's for worse, I'm just saying that nothing is useless and they all have their advantages.

[Killuminati]

On 2006-10-29 23:05, Marks wrote:
Twin weapons attack twice as much as their single counterparts, but do half as much damage. That is already enough reason to throw them out. Even if they did the same damage per second, isn't it better to have a gun in your offhand than nothing? Regardless, it goes further. Now it is debatable that twin weapons do slightly more damage overall than their single counterparts, but I have yet to see this happen. First of all let's compare how long it takes to do 3 hits with a saber as opposed to 6 hits with a twin saber, it seems the single saber does it slightly faster. This is assured by the wonderful "hit delay". Everytime you hit something with your weapon, your character freezes for a split second. Well guess what twin weapons get twice as many hits per combo, and twice as many delays, making the combo pretty long. So there you have it, single weapons do MORE damage, and they do the damage FASTER, and to top it all off you get a gun in your offhand for fun.

And the halting enemy attacks by more hits is also invalid. You MIGHT be able to delay the enemy long enough to finish your entire 6 hit or 7 hit combo and then some PA, but after that you get hit. In comparison, a single weapon will do a 3 hit combo and PA that does more damage, in less time, which means lower chance of being hit or at least the same chance.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marks on 2006-10-29 23:06 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marks on 2006-10-29 23:19 ]</font>


I have to agree. I would also like to add that using twin sabers can cost you experience not only in time delay but also for the fact your not able to use your gun.

A gun with one saber will get you more experience faster then twin sabers if you know what your doing.

[Bahamut89]

Multi-hit weapons add your own base ATP more often. The higher your base ATP, the less it matters how much ATP the weapon has. So, twin weapons will start to shine at high levels when weapons start contributing less to your overall ATP.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bahamut89 on 2006-10-29 23:45 ]</font>

[Marks]

On 2006-10-29 23:37, Ryogen wrote:
Heh your wrong man. Did you do any research to back this up? When I mean "research" I mean good detailed ones. Are you using weapons of the same Grade? What kind? Etc. It seems you ran off your last topic asking the question if they are useless. Not trying to diss you are anything, but your off on many points concluding that they are useless. I would show you why now, but I need to get some sleep. If it's not already done by the time I wake up, I will do a test and give you results on anything why you think they are useless and try to prove you wrong.

I wouldn't be worrying about which is better anyway. All weapons drop down to what you like and not necessarly how it does compaired to 1 weapon vs Duel weapons. Remember this is PSU, you play what you like. Ping does sorta have a point too.

Anyway if there is no one to explain to you in about 7 hours, I'll work some info up for you marks. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif I'm not saying it's better, I'm not saying it's for worse, I'm just saying that nothing is useless and they all have their advantages.



I hope I am wrong seriously, I am level 20 and I have been using twin daggers since level 1 because they are my favorite style to play. I love how they look, and I love how the combo looks, and I really love the PA it's my favorite PA in the game. My twin dagger PA is level 20 and it is the one I leveled the most obviously. However there is one thing I love more than twin daggers, and that is actually killing the monsters. I see people with single weapons doing an unevenly higher amount of damage than me, yes with same rarity and manufacturor. Killing monsters faster with fast weapons (single daggers are pretty fast!) just might make up for the style of twin daggers. Now before I went out and threw away my level 20 PA, and sold my twin daggers, in order to buy some single dagger and gun and level up the PA for that, I made this thread in hopes of someone proving me wrong.

[Marks]

On 2006-10-29 23:43, Bahamut89 wrote:
Multi-hit weapons add your own base ATP more often. The higher your base ATP, the less it matters how much ATP the weapon has. So, twin weapons will start to shine at high levels when weapons start contributing less to your overall ATP.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bahamut89 on 2006-10-29 23:45 ]</font>


This makes sense, I hope it's right. This, and the lack of hit delay is what made me go dual weapons in PSO. At least I am pretty sure there was no delay... or I haven't noticed it in all my years of pso...

[Ryogen]

Well man you never know what they did to their weapons or what they got. I mean they could have grinded it up and stuff. Well I'll be back here soon.

[Realmz]

i had a one handed sabre (three stars) and a twin sabre (two stars)
my twin sabre did around 200 a full combo
ony one hander did 180

twins do do more damage, it's jusst not exactly huge, but it is higher. you lose the gun, but twins are more about downing monsters (twin sabres) slashing a ton of them (daggers) or smashing through them (fists)

i personally, use both twins and one hand /gun why pick one when you ccan have the best of both?

[Marks]

On 2006-10-29 23:50, Realmz wrote:
i had a one handed sabre (three stars) and a twin sabre (two stars)
my twin sabre did around 200 a full combo
ony one hander did 180

twins do do more damage, it's jusst not exactly huge, but it is higher. you lose the gun, but twins are more about downing monsters (twin sabres) slashing a ton of them (daggers) or smashing through them (fists)

i personally, use both twins and one hand /gun why pick one when you ccan have the best of both?



What was the company of the sabers? Did the single saber finish it's 3 hit combo before the twin saber finished it's 6 hit combo?

[Yoruichi]

Depends on damage/stat cap, if lets say a cap and your a male beast who hits 999 wether or not your weapon adds 38 or 547 doesn't matter, only how many and how fast you can get hits in. As of now its a style and situational prefrence.

The PA's are different dagger is mobile twin daggers are stationary at rank 1. Single and twin both launch but single moves you in the are and tosses them where twin stays on the ground while spinning slapping them around.

[Killuminati]

Only other good use I can find for twin sabers is when I'm soloing.

[Yoruichi]

Really I hate twin sabers with a passion, the only hope I have for them is better PAs past rank 1 but I'm not gonna give them the time of day. My final class won't have the S class anyway. My favorite so far is twin daggers, plenty of uses...long as you have decent armor or you will get maimed with its low range and best use in the middle of a crowd.

[Wallin]

I don't think you're looking at the right damage numbers, honestly.

The only people who truly, undeniably outdamage twin weapons are sword users, spear users, and Force technics, and that's because their speed or area of attack is vastly different.

In my experience it is VERY rare for me to see anyone wielding a one-handed weapon full-time. Unless you're a ranger, why would you ever need to wield a gun except against flying units, in which case there's five other weapon slots to put other weapons in.

I think you're viewing the game way too close to harshly. You're going to drive yourself into hating this game really fast if all you do is focus on "what's the coolest compared to everyone else". Raising your partner machinery will be nothing but suffering and punishment, you'll freak out over whether or not your class was best suited to your race, whether your clothes match your hair, whether or not your hair looks cooler today than it did yesterday, if your partner machinery still likes you... PLAY THE GAME BECAUSE IT'S FUN. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

And it's actually fairly depressing when you're doing research on reasons why you might suck. -_-

If you think twin daggers rock, then rock on!... yeah, anyway, if people didn't think twin daggers were cool or held a candle to their single counterparts, no one would use them, and people would actually reinforce not using them. But players do use them, LOTS of them. So use them because you want to, not because of the numbers flashing by on your screen.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Wallin on 2006-10-30 00:59 ]</font>

[Aberu]

Every weapon does it's own thing respectively. The large long swords personally leave you too open and don't stun often enough, and many creatures can get an in. You can actually combo very well with twin daggers for instance, high damage output on single targets. Once they close in on you, you pa and run away. Switch to your ranged weapon and wail on em, run in and fight when you can't run anymore. I only use the long swords when there is a group of very small and slow moving creatures that don't generally mini-stun or stun me too often, so I can afford to get hit when waiting for that thing to swing. Doing one hand saber could be seen as weak since it doesn't mini stun as easily as two hander, but it has it's versatility aspect as well with a handgun readily accessible for combos once they are on the ground.

[Sev]

This is why your Action Pallete holds multiple weapons...

Saber/Handgun combo = Tag
Twin Saber = Make things die

That's how I do it at least.

[Zato-2TWO]

Twin weapons carry the same advantages as any fast-hitting weapon in an MMO:

On one hand, while your damage per hit is lower than the single hitters, your longer combo gives you more chances to land crits.

On the other hand, that same combo also gives you more chances to miss.

In the end it really comes down to preference of playstyle, and not just sheer numbers. If you like calculating the best stat/gear/ability combos, go play WoW. PSU is more than that, and above all it's fun. I personally don't play MMO's to watch numbers pop out of monsters, I play them to make a cool character and do cool stuff, and PSU gives me just that.

[Kaply]

A spear HU spamming PAs all day, even with a lower grade weapon will get more xp than all the rest just because the probability that they will get the killing blow increases by a lot due to the amount of damage that weapon+pa can do.

[Marks]

Some of you guys are dragging off of the topic and are not reading the first post or the first few posts.

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

lolwut?

Renkai Buyou-zan is about the best PA ever, in terms of tagging and dealing crazy damage.

[wildstar]

I love twin weapons. I currently have a HU that is using Seva Sata + Handgun (1-hand + gun) & the same level/grade/cost Twin Saber set (forget the exact name, but also cost 2000 meseta and looks like you have two Seva Sata's in your hands).

It is so awesome for crowd control and exp-tagging in Relics. At first I hated it, but once I got used to NOT locking onto my targets and, instead, spreading around the damage it totally changed my opinion of Twin Saber types. I love it so much I spent just about every meseta I have on the 9300 meseta synth recipe for the top B-grade twins (and the materials I was missing). Once I get my synth chance up a little higher I'm upgrading!

[RadiantLegend]

I have a twin dagger with PA lv 16

It owns!

[Bast]

I really just solo most of the time. Would anyone recommend the twin weapons vs. the saber/hangun combo for solo?

[Polenicus]

Bah, okay I can see that twin sabers aren't getting any more love in PSU than they did in PSO.

That's fine. Fewer people using them just makes me all the more unique http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

However, I WILL note that Twin Sabers work best when you use them with a particular style of fighting. If your style doesn't suit using Twin Sabers, then you likely won't like them.

First off, as far as PSO weapons go, forget figuring out comparitive damages. DoT is meaningless if you're getting smacked around and interrupted. People got obsessed with this in PSO, and you saw just about everyone running around using a J-sword. Bleh, unoriginal. First off play with the weapon types and find one you like and you work well with. Develop your style. Keep in mind you'll need a few different types for different situations and party setups.

Now, keep in mind I'm only level 12 so far. I'm hardly an expert, but a lot of my old PSO experience seems to translate fairly well.

Now, with Twin Sabers (And doublesabers, if they play anything like they did in PSO), it's all about dancing and positioning. Luckily, Rising Crush makes this a HELL of a lot easier.

First thing to remember is, only three enemies can attack you from the front... the others will bunch up, turn around and basically trip over each other. So the goal is to keep them bunched up... this reduces the chance of them getting behind you... though with PSU, you have ways of dealing with that now.

Now, in PSO charging head-on into a mass of mobs with a multi-hit weapon was stupid and suicidal, unless you were high enough above them to simply carve through them and come out the other side unscathed. With PSU however, you have a nifty tool called Rising Break. Rising Break, even at it's earliest stages, will fling up to two mobs into the air and drop them for a short time. This is a GOOD thing!

So now you can charge the main group and attack head on. You could use your Photon Art right off, but you wanna get some licks in first. Do the first two hits of your combo, and then finish with Rising Break (I'm assuming as Rising Break develops, you get more hits with it, at which point you'll replace one of the regular combo hits with Rising Break). Now, you can technically do a full 3 hit combo and then go into Rising Break, but with most enemies, they'll be in your face by then and will interrupt.

The multiple hits of the twin sabers will basically stun-lock the first mob, while the other two take a second to get around him to attack you, and any others mill about and wait their turn. Ideally, when your Rising Break hits, it will pop two of the mobs your fighting into the air, leaving you to only deal with one.

Now, you back off, and get out of range of the counter-attack. The mobs should be more scattered now, in ones and twos. The best policy is to attack them from the sides rather than head on, and keep and eye out behind you. If someone should sneak up behind you while you're whaling on their friend, pull the analog stick towards that mob and hit Rising Break. It'll knock them back, likely before your other target unstuns enough to get you before you can dance back and out of the way.

It's not as easy as bulling in with a greatsword and just hacking and slashing the whole group, but in a party it's GREAT crowd control, and two people with Rising Strike or Rising Break can blow apart a clump of mobs very quickly. One on one twin swords can stagger just about any mob, especially if you get them from the side, meaning you can get your licks in and get out without a scratch.

It's not for everyone, and screwing up can get you dead VERY fast, especially if you get surrounded. But nothing makes you feel quite as badass as dancing around a whole herd of mobs, cutting them down and sending them flying until they're all dead, without taking a scratch.

Just my 2 cents.

[Thrash777]

Also, with twin or long combo weapons; each attack they do is calculated with ATP and the DFP of the enemy ON EACH HIT, so thats 6 or 7 times calculated, whereas single or 3 hit weapons only have that calculation done 3 times, meaning that they are more effective against enemies with high DFP...

You need to consider loads of factors to compare each type of weapon... they all have their advantages and disadvantages, and situation where some are better than others...

[Tomeeboy]

I personally use the saber/gun combo most of the time. I like to fire off some shots from a distance as I move in closer to the enemies (which also let's me 'tag' them all when I'm grouped). The gun is also nice for when you are getting pushed back by enemies and want to keep attacking while retreating. The Rising Strike PA is fantastic, especially once you get it to level 11 for the added combo move, so the saber is great for close combat.

However, I do like the style of some of the dual weapons, such as dual sabers. I would probably try using more dual weapons, but I don't have the money laying around just yet to buy an equally powerful dual weapon w/ PA. Besides, it's nice to have higher level PAs from using the same weapon types all of the time. Rather than using both saber/gun and dual sabers, I'd rather be using saber/gun and saber/gun (2nd set being the most recent set I upgraded from). This allows me to always be raising my two primary Photon Arts, which results in higher damage and efficiency. When your primary weapon's PA is 4 or 5 levels higher than you are, it can really make quick work of tough enemies or bosses http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Ffuzzy-Logik]

On 2006-10-30 09:17, Polenicus wrote:
a bunch of stuffYeah, or you could just do Renkai Buyou-zan over and over and hit 4 (at least) targets each 3 times (6 times at level 11).

Spears also work well on bunched up enemies. Swords, however, are lolwtf slow.

[SephYuyX]

I use sword for most of the time (cant wait for axe) and then switch to twin sabers to go after a single mob.

[mechatra]

Don't get your hopes up for the axes if you like Swords. Axes only hit one target, much like sabers, daggers, ect.

[SephYuyX]

Yeah, meant it as a replace for my sabers.

[Guilty-Mirage]

Someone already sort of explained it, but...

A 50 ATP weapon that hits twice as fast as a 100 ATP weapon is far, far, far, far, far more powerful. As someone mentioned, your base ATP is applied to the base weapon damage... which means if you had a base ATP of 100, the "lower ATP" weapon is hitting with 150 ATP twice in the time it takes the "stronger" weapon to hit with 200 ATP once.

Anyone who played oldschool EverQuest will remember this, from when they implemented the main hand flat attack bonus (regardless of weapon speed) will remember this. It made a 10 damage / 20 delay the main hand weapon of choice over a 20 / 40 weapon, or even a 25 / 40 weapon.

Now, as someone mentioned... when you're in a group that's wussing out and grinding XP on crap way too weak for the party, your main concern isn't max damage per second... it's "how many things can I tag before they die?" But even there, twin sabers (or daggers) win simply because they can hit more targets per combo. Unless you want to tag with a handgun. Sometimes that's fine, particularly for use as you rush in before switching to melee.

But seriously, if you're a hunter primarily using a handgun, dancing around the enemies taking shots from all sides... just quit the type and play a ranger. Stop sucking it up in groups.

[Jasam]

It almost always comes down to situation.
You have to note, that, taking a broken example from PSO, you have a double/twin saber with 1atp, and a saber with 100atp

At lower levels, your gonna hit for 2-3 damage with the double, and 50-60 with the saber over a combo anagnst stronger enermys.

However, level up a lot, fight a weaker enermy, and suddenly its 5-6hits of 600 compared to 3hits of 640...
When this situation arises, you can often kill the enermy in one combo and move stright onto the next one, while earlier, it would be suicidal to use it.

Now PSU plays by slightly diffrent rules, but you will probably find, depending on the enermy, the enermys attack styles, the number of enermys and your level, that the better weapon switches a lot.

Of course there is always the opinion of, the cooler looking weapon is obviously better....
I like that one a lot ^-^'

[Zalinian]

How about using twin sabers becuase they look cooler then a 1-handed saber? Ever think of that?

[SephYuyX]

On 2006-10-30 12:09, Zalinian wrote:
How about using twin sabers becuase they look cooler then a 1-handed saber? Ever think of that?

Didnt you get the message?

Apparently PSU is now a full fledged MMORPG, so its all about the %, the dmg and the OMG MORE DOTS, not looks or fun.



Oh wait, lol @ the people who are trying to say this weapon is better then the other. PSU is fun game, and meant to be fun, if I wanted to play for stats damage calculations and have the best gear just too look like everyone else, ill stick to playing just FFXI.

Fun > stats/dmg/w/e in this game.

[KiteWolfwood]

"I like apples but you like oranges, so you have to like apples too".

[Guilty-Mirage]

I'm sorry, but "fun" has never and will never be an excuse for bad game design, and ridiculously unbalanced weapon types (y hallo thar PSO) are one example of it. Relatively balanced weapons where each has a role and purpose and a friggin' reason to exist in the first place... that's important. Being able to pick what you want style-wise and not suck ass is a key thing. Diversity and uniqueness is pointless if you're worthless in a group because you wanted to pick one type of weapon that just happened to be poorly implemented.

If you don't like discussions about game balance issues... don't post in the thread.

Kthx.

[Arias]

On 2006-10-30 01:18, Sev wrote:
This is why your Action Pallete holds multiple weapons...

Saber/Handgun combo = Tag
Twin Saber = Make things die

That's how I do it at least.



I think I'll be playing the same way
Plus i have an uberfeeling I'll take the Spear with it too, it just rules http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif
And since I played God Of War recently, and loved the Blades Of Chaos, the twin sabers DO seem to look alot like them, certainly with the Rising Strike/Crush thingie.

And seriously guys, Wallin has one HECK of a point there, play the game because it's fun, don't act like that.

And the game is well-based on all sides, so that Twin sabers and One-handed Saber + Handgun are equally good, it just depends on one's gameplay.

This topic should be closed sometime soon

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Arias on 2006-10-30 14:21 ]</font>

[KirinDave]

On 2006-10-30 13:58, Guilty-Mirage wrote:
I'm sorry, but "fun" has never and will never be an excuse for bad game design, and ridiculously unbalanced weapon types (y hallo thar PSO) are one example of it. Relatively balanced weapons where each has a role and purpose and a friggin' reason to exist in the first place... that's important. Being able to pick what you want style-wise and not suck ass is a key thing. Diversity and uniqueness is pointless if you're worthless in a group because you wanted to pick one type of weapon that just happened to be poorly implemented.

And you would be right were it not for the fact that PSU's obviously been tuned such that multi-handers do reach a sort of balance with one-handers. People have posted why numerous times, and PSU is not the first game to do this. They may not be excellent weapons early in a character's life cycle, but that really doesn't matter if they end up working well in the long run.

Anyone who says Twin Daggers are useless early on hasn't bought the PA yet. It's absurdly strong. Likewise the Twin Saber art is noticeably better than the saber art.



If you don't like discussions about game balance issues... don't post in the thread.

Kthx.



Likewise, pleae don't pollute the PSU community with toxic WoW mentalities. I left WoW because I wanted to get away from people bullying others with elitists mentalities and logic about "game imbalance." Let's not strip this game of all fun an originality in a mindless attempt to crunch content with all the enjoyment of a bag of glass for dessert. PSU is not an MMO, it's like Diablo. All that matters is if you can beat a mission with an S-rank or not. Anything beyond that is purely a matter of taste.

[Guilty-Mirage]

And you would be right were it not for the fact that PSU's obviously been tuned such that multi-handers do reach a sort of balance with one-handers.

Duh. I explained that already if you'd bother to read the thread.


Likewise, pleae don't pollute the PSU community with toxic WoW mentalities.

Oh please. Get over yourself. Do you seriously think people who care about game balance are "OMG LOL LEET DOODZ DPS IS ALL THAT MATTERS WUT IS FUN??!?!?! I PLAY TO WIN!! KILL BORZ 4 LEET XP!" Seriously. Game balance matters. Anyone who says they'd pay to play a game where one class did 20 points of damage per hit, another couldn't do any damage and ran at half speed, and another did 300 points of damage per hit but randomly exploded is a liar.

Though that random explosion thing sounds amusing.


I left WoW because I wanted to get away from people bullying others with elitists mentalities and logic about "game imbalance."

Oh yes, because everyone's bullying you with their "elitist mentalities" here, and that's clearly why you decided you had to write a flame post about "toxic WoW mentalities." Oh wait, no they're not. People are just explaining to someone how mathematics work and why the twin weapons don't suck.


PSU is not an MMO, it's like Diablo.

That's a rather pointless statement.

People in Diablo and Diablo II focused on what worked the best in the shortest amount of time. That's why Meph runs and Bloody Foothill runs existed. That's why people did the cow level ad nauseum. That's why Burizons existed.

Same **** as the stuff you decry, different game.

No offense, but save your "crusade to save 'fun' in games" for a thread where it's actually appropriate. Nothing in this thread and nothing about game balance somehow prevents people from having fun. Game balance matters to everyone, whether they like to admit it or not.

Would you rather your preferred weapon suck, or would you prefer that it not suck?

If you answered "not suck", then you're in favor of game balance.

If you answered "suck", you are silly.

If you don't like conversations about game balance - for whatever reasons you have - then do what I said and don't read (or post in) the thread. No one's forcing you to talk about game balance. No one's coming up to you and slapping you because you'd rather not talk about it.

If you're going to troll, then leave.

Any game with numbers, combat, and has a large time requirement is going to have people figuring out what works best and whether or not the options provided for playing the game are remotely well balanced. That not some "toxic WoW mentality", that's common sense.

Again, if you don't like discussing it... then don't participate.

That's not exactly hard to figure out.

I don't particularly find model train building to be fascinating... hence, I do not visit forum threads about it.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Guilty-Mirage on 2006-10-30 15:06 ]</font>

[KirinDave]

On 2006-10-30 15:04, Guilty-Mirage wrote:


[quote]Likewise, pleae don't pollute the PSU community with toxic WoW mentalities.

Oh please. Get over yourself. Do you seriously think people who care about game balance are "OMG LOL LEET DOODZ DPS IS ALL THAT MATTERS WUT IS FUN??!?!?! I PLAY TO WIN!! KILL BORZ 4 LEET XP!" Seriously. Game balance matters. Anyone who says they'd pay to play a game where one class did 20 points of damage per hit, another couldn't do any damage and ran at half speed, and another did 300 points of damage per hit but randomly exploded is a liar.

Game Balance does matter. And–by your own admission–the weapons are balanced, albeit in a way that may not be immediately understood by everyone.

So let's leave it at that. Let's not debate the exact %s by which a given weapon is superior. Let's not agonize over how to shave 13 seconds off our time killing De Ragan. Let's not throw out any "per second" mathcraft that's largely inapplicable in reality.

The point I was trying to make is that, beyond a certain threshold (S-Rank), the only value in making yourself stronger is in your head. Your stance (minor game balance issues matter) and the poster who said, "Just use what's fun" are equivalent. As long as you both make S-Rank, his stance and yours are equally rewarded. Taking that even further, the "fun" of a game is part of its balance. As you so plainly put it, no one wants to play unbalanced classes. You and the previous poster were talking about the same thing from different perspectives.

WoW actually has a very similar situation. So much of the theorycrafting of that game is utterly pointless, but people talk about it with a level of fervor that I'm surprised there isn't a game balance gospel somewhere, and it's easy to let yourself get sucked into that trap, because we all want to be "good" at the game.



I left WoW because I wanted to get away from people bullying others with elitists mentalities and logic about "game imbalance."

Oh yes, because everyone's bullying you with their "elitist mentalities" here, and that's clearly why you decided you had to write a flame post about "toxic WoW mentalities." Oh wait, no they're not. People are just explaining to someone how mathematics work and why the twin weapons don't suck.

Someone said, "Just use the weapon because it's fun." You them jumped on them and said "Don't post here." That's, by any reasonable definition, bullying. And as I've put forth above, your reasoning and his reasoning are equally valid in terms of the game's reward system.

Please, stop acting like you've got more right to talk, or that your opinion about how a game should be played, has more weight because you've applied math to a game. It clearly does not, and PSU even has specific mechanics (the ranking system) to clearly show us where "good enough" is.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: KirinDave on 2006-10-30 15:55 ]</font>

[Zato-2TWO]

I think what he meant to say was that games like WoW stress optimizing one's characters the way 500000000 other people do and ultimately turn everyone into cookie-cutter copies of one another all doing the same thing because it produces the best results. In a game like WoW, that's important because the game is geared toward hardcore gamers who HAVE to get the best results lest they gimp the party. I honestly tried to steer from the path and play the way I wanted, but ultimately it resulted in me not being as good as everyone else, and I eventually had to conform to a mold I didn't particularly enjoy just to 'do my job right'.

I believe PSU to be more free-form on how your playstyle is: it doesn't matter if you use a double dagger or a single dagger or twin sabers or single saber or whatever, all of them work towards the same degree. But on the other hand, anyone who tells me "WTF Y U USE SINGLE DAGGER U GIMP L2P NOOOOOOOB LOLOLOLOL" needs to calm the hell down and let people play the game.

I'm not taking sides here, I'm saying there needs to be a balance between these two extremes as it concerns PSU. All you number-crunching stat-breaking guys, good for you. SOMEONE'd have to figure out how the game works, and you guys are doing a bangup job of doing it so other people can get some reassurance on how the game's mechanics work. All you 'play for fun!' guys, good for you. You know how to to enjoy the game without depending on numbers and stats.

But PLEASE people, don't declare war on one another! I view myself as a play-for-fun dude, but I don't diss out any number-crunchers because I also benefit from their studies and breakdowns just as much as they do; not so I can conform and become a carbon copy of everyone else who's optimizing, but so I understand what direction I'm going in this open-ended game. I've seen what happens to people who blow off number-crunchers and shoot off to enjoy the game on their own, then complain when they suck! It's not healthy!

Please people, just enjoy the game in any way you wish. If you like to analyze and share your secrets, that's wonderful. If you like playing the game however you damn well want, that's wonderful too. Please don't have disputes over it just because your views are different.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Zato-2TWO on 2006-10-30 16:06 ]</font>

[Cause_I_Own_U]

I believe the twins PA's can hit 3 whill the 1handers only hit 2, ive noticed my sabers second combo of rising strike only tags 2 mobs and sends them flying but rising crush can tag 3

[Guilty-Mirage]

On 2006-10-30 15:51, KirinDave wrote:
So let's leave it at that. Let's not debate the exact %s by which a given weapon is superior. Let's not agonize over how to shave 13 seconds off our time killing De Ragan. Let's not throw out any "per second" mathcraft that's largely inapplicable in reality.

... I didn't.

Seriously, what in the hell are you talking about?


Your stance (minor game balance issues matter) and the poster who said, "Just use what's fun" are equivalent.

... and what makes you think I believe otherwise and need you to tell me this?


As long as you both make S-Rank, his stance and yours are equally rewarded.

Though I personally don't care about rushing to the level cap or any of that, what you're saying is fundamentally incorrect. Getting S rank is the easy part. But a group that focuses on maximizing efficiency will get many more S ranks in the same period of time as a group that's just "playing for fun."

While I'm not part of that group, I do understand them. That is part of the "fun" to them. It's enjoyable. It's not like it's some kind of job. It's not like they do it to irritate other people. Some people just like to do things as efficiently and quickly as possible.

So, in short... you're wrong. Someone who isn't focused on maximizing their efficiency isn't going to get as much XP / mission points / whatever in the same time frame as someone who is.


WoW actually has a very similar situation. So much of the theorycrafting of that game is utterly pointless,

Prove it.

Things like the Hunter 10 second cycle had drastic effects on how much actual damage a Hunter can deal. I really fail to see why you feel the need to talk smack about people who focus on the mathematics of a game, particularly when you make silly claims like "so much of (it) is utterly pointless."

It's not utterly pointless. It does matter. It does make someone a more efficient and more "capable" gamer.


Someone said, "Just use the weapon because it's fun." You them jumped on them and said "Don't post here."

Uh, no... I did not. You seem to have gotten all pissy because you completely misunderstood the person to whom I was responding. You might ask for clarification in the future before acting snotty. I wasn't replying to Wallin (the person you seem to think was the object of my post.) I was replying to SephirothYuyX, who decided to get smartassed and make some snide comments about "going back to FF XI" if he was going to have to listen to talk about math. I explained that no one made him read or post in the thread.

He also said that PSU was "supposed to be about fun." I responded to that as well. Nothing about discussing whether or not twin sabers suck or not... takes any enjoyment out of the game for anyone. People who don't like to read such threads shouldn't click on them.

Wallin and I basically agreed, as you pointed out. Yet somehow, you decided to assume that I was arguing with the person you also said I was agreeing with. How you even got the idea in your head that I was talking to Wallin in that post is beyond me.


It clearly does not, and PSU even has specific mechanics (the ranking system) to clearly show us where "good enough" is.

S-rank has nothing to do with "good enough." Everyone has a different defintion of "good enough." Some people have fun goofing off and doing kamikaze melee runs as a Cast Force. If that's how they enjoy to play solo and with people who also like that style of play, more power to them.

The "ranking" is nothing more than a game mechanic for assigning points. It has nothing to do with how good or bad you did beyond the most fundamental level, because all you have to do to get an S-rank is A) not die, and B) kill everything.

You can suck total ass by most peoples' standards and still get an S-rank.

[KirinDave]

Zato-2TWO, you got it.

WoW is so frustrating to me because people have decided that numerical strength is more important than enjoying yourself, and then the game devs ran with it. That's why so many MMORPG endgames fail so badly.

FFXI was a failure in many ways, but it was a brilliant success in its job system. It provided a level of replayability that you seldom see in an MMORPG, because you could build a lot of different kinds of characters without losing anything, and they all worked pretty well if you played to their strengths. PSU seems to have gone that route with Advanced Classes, but has a much more permissive style of gameplay.

[Garnet_Moon]

I'm using a 200m twin knife and each single hit matches everybody elses single-saber or single-dagger strike. I wonder what will happen if I buy the 8,600m one. Hmm. >_>

Of course, I love my attack slot and atk boost items, so yeah.

Whether or not they all have shit for equipment I don't know. I know mine is but it's doing the same damage per hit that everyone else is doing with single weapons.

Now, what irks me is the price I paid for my Dual Slashers. 5 star rank B Twin Sabers, and they do less damage than my GRM Brass Knuckles. Of course, they are unmodded but I sunk about 25k m into them so I don't wanna tempt fate.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Garnet_Moon on 2006-10-30 16:14 ]</font>

[Guilty-Mirage]

On 2006-10-30 16:03, Zato-2TWO wrote:
I think what he meant to say was that games like WoW stress optimizing one's characters the way 500000000 other people do and ultimately turn everyone into cookie-cutter copies of one another all doing the same thing because it produces the best results.

No offense, but having played WoW since release, that's complete bollocks. Everyone is not some kind of cookie-cutter. People do tend to use what works instead of random-ass crap like playing a Warrior who only uses a bow, but there are many, many, many, many different, valid options per class that all "work" very well.

People "like him" (as you said) are scaring themselves silly over some conspiracy to make everyone conform that doesn't exist. For an Arms Warrior, Sword spec is probably the best due to the mechanics behind how it works and how rage generation operates. Yet, do you see plenty of Arms Warriors in raiding guilds that aren't Sword spec'd? Hell yeah.


In a game like WoW, that's important because the game is geared toward hardcore gamers who HAVE to get the best results lest they gimp the party.

No, it really isn't. I'm sorry if you found some low level moron who thought it was his job to read forums and then (mis)quote high level advice out of context like it was gospel to lower level folks, but that's not what the average WoW gamer is like.

Unless you're doing something totally stupid (like nuking as a priest when people are dying, or refusing to tank as a warrior when the monster's eating a mage's face off), most people really don't care about mathcraft. Long as the instance run gets done and loot gets distributed, the vast majority of WoW gamers are thrilled.

And WoW? Geared toward hardcore gamers?

Just... no. WoW is extremely oriented toward casual gaming compared to most MMORPGs.


You know how to to enjoy the game without depending on numbers and stats.

But PLEASE people, don't declare war on one another!

Ok. I'm going to go on a mini-rant here.

I don't personally hate you.

I don't even think you're aware of what you're doing when you say things like that, but... here goes.

That's the kind of junk that starts these arguments. Could you possibly drop the condescending bull **** for one minute? Could you possibly realize that people who don't focus on stats and numbers are focusing on something else no less or more valid for a source of entertainment in a game? Could you possibly realize that EVERYONE plays "for fun" and that the people who do focus heavily on numbers and such ARE playing "for fun" just as much as you?

Oh, I know. You'll say "when I say 'for fun' I mean something else, you're taking it the wrong way..." But every time you contrast "for fun" players against "stat" players indirectly or directly, you're suggesting - whether intentionally or not - that anyone who doesn't play "for fun" (as you define it) is some kind of joyless malcontent heartlessly slaving away at the game like it's some kind of Herculean toil.

You're trying to play peacemaker, but you're playing favorites and just contributing to the myth that starts this kind of crap in the first place.


On 2006-10-30 16:09, KirinDave wrote:
WoW is so frustrating to me because people have decided that numerical strength is more important than enjoying yourself,

Wrong.


FFXI was a failure in many ways, but it was a brilliant success in its job system.

That's a matter of perspective. It was well done in some ways, and horribly done in others. Being something of a pioneer in the field, though, it can be forgiven for its failures... and was a good game overall.


It provided a level of replayability that you seldom see in an MMORPG, because you could build a lot of different kinds of characters without losing anything, and they all worked pretty well if you played to their strengths.

I'm sorry, but there were a ton of job / subjob combinations that were utterly and horribly worthless. The vast majority of combinations had absolutely no point and were almost totally useless in a group or solo. It has nothing to do with powergaming or theorycraft or anything.

Subbing Summoner to Dark Knight does nothing for you. It just... sucks.

[KirinDave]

On 2006-10-30 16:08, Guilty-Mirage wrote:

Your stance (minor game balance issues matter) and the poster who said, "Just use what's fun" are equivalent.

... and what makes you think I believe otherwise and need you to tell me this?


Your responses. Especially your next paragraph.



As long as you both make S-Rank, his stance and yours are equally rewarded.

Though I personally don't care about rushing to the level cap or any of that, what you're saying is fundamentally incorrect. Getting S rank is the easy part. But a group that focuses on maximizing efficiency will get many more S ranks in the same period of time as a group that's just "playing for fun."

While I'm not part of that group, I do understand them. That is part of the "fun" to them. It's enjoyable. It's not like it's some kind of job. It's not like they do it to irritate other people. Some people just like to do things as efficiently and quickly as possible.


Now this is all cool, but watch where you go with it...


So, in short... you're wrong. Someone who isn't focused on maximizing their efficiency isn't going to get as much XP / mission points / whatever in the same time frame as someone who is.

Here we go. Right here. You assume the metric of success is "more S-Ranks". By that logic, playing more often is also success. But that doesn't make a ton of sense, since there's obviously only a weak relationship between how much someone plays and how good they may be at the game.

If you like getting more S-ranks, great! If someone else likes playing with Twin Daggers, great. You are both equally justified in your opinion, and quite frankly you both are succeeding at your goals so there is no "better" player here. You say you understand this, but act like you don't. It's very confusing.



WoW actually has a very similar situation. So much of the theorycrafting of that game is utterly pointless,

Prove it.


There you go again. Do I have to prove that we still clear MC and AQ40 every week, even though we have things like Druid and paladin tanks? Do I have to justify that we use use non-standard tactics in Naxx? Why should I have to justify my enjoyment to you? If we have fun, what's it matter if we could have done it 20 minutes faster, or with 2 less deaths?

You seem to be willing to accept that people have different ideas of what "success" is, but then you're unwilling to actually act on that socially.



Someone said, "Just use the weapon because it's fun." You them jumped on them and said "Don't post here."

Uh, no... I did not. You seem to have gotten all pissy because you completely misunderstood the person to whom I was responding.

Consider quoting or at least addressing your posts. If you're going to play this card, look at the context of your post. If I misunderstood you, I apologize, but someone says something about fun and coolness , and then your post 2 entries later starts with "I'm sorry, but "fun" has never and will never be an excuse for bad game design," isn't exactly helpful.

I'm not the only one who misread what you were saying.


You might ask for clarification in the future before acting snotty.

And you might try being clear before being snotty? Recriminations aside, let's live and learn. I'm not going to escalate this any further with responses. If I misinterpreted you, I apologize for that.

[KirinDave]

That's the kind of junk that starts these arguments. Could you possibly drop the condescending bull **** for one minute? Could you possibly realize that people who don't focus on stats and numbers are focusing on something else no less or more valid for a source of entertainment in a game? Could you possibly realize that EVERYONE plays "for fun" and that the people who do focus heavily on numbers and such ARE playing "for fun" just as much as you?

See, this is the whole point we're trying to make. The way you act, it's like your fun is a whole heck of a lot more important than anyone else's. This is not a game mechanics thread. It's a thread about the relative worth of twin weapons, and "fun", "style" and "cool" can and must play a part in that.

You're arguing you shouldn't be persecuted, but then persecuting at the same time. You're arguing that you have a right to theorycraft, but then acting like anyone who says that theorycraft isn't important is somehow incredibly stupid.

There is a clear and obvious disconnect between the position you say you hold, and the one you obviously feel.

[Guilty-Mirage]

On 2006-10-30 16:35, KirinDave wrote:
Here we go. Right here. You assume the metric of success is "more S-Ranks". By that logic, playing more often is also success.[/quote

No... that's not what I assumed at all, nor is it even remotely what I stated. Efficiency is measured in time spent vs objectives achieved... not how often you play. Please do not make logical fallacies and then attempt to use them against someone's statements on top of putting words in my mouth.

"Success" is measured in having fun.

Some people have fun via efficiency and how well they can "beat the game at its own game." In that case, being able to do six S-ranks in an hour instead of four (making numbers up here) is clearly more fun for that person.

[quote]There you go again. Do I have to prove that we still clear MC and AQ40 every week, even though we have things like Druid and paladin tanks?

Most raiding guilds do. You later say that you're "non standard", but I really fail to see how you're not like everyone else... merely convincing yourself that you're somehow "outside the box" and "not cookie cutter." I've talked with guilds that have done MC with nothing but Druid tanks, and I know of at least one MC raid back in the day that was nothing but Druids... most of whom were the hardk0re players so greatly disdained (indirectly) by some people in this thread.

Primarily playing for efficiency doesn't mean these same people don't goof off now and again.


Consider quoting or at least addressing your posts.

I'm still not sure how you simutaneously said that I agreed with someone (and felt the need to point this out to me), and yet somehow also thought I was arguing with them. That makes no sense to me.

I see the context of my post. I also see that almost immediately before my post, someone went on a short "PSU is for people who play for fun, not FF XI cretins" rant.


I'm not the only one who misread what you were saying.

I haven't noticed anyone else.

Apology accepted, though.

I'll try to use the quote feature more in the future. As it is, I spend most of my forum time on GameFAQs, which has no quote feature and has to be manually done.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Guilty-Mirage on 2006-10-30 16:45 ]</font>

[-Break-]

On 2006-10-29 23:10, Pengfishh wrote:
There's a thread around here, someone will post it soon enough, that details the clocked times it takes to execute a combo with each weapon type. Twin daggers were the fastest by far, which means most damage per second.

But! It's all up to preference. I like having a gun in my offhand and using a single dagger, but I also like using spears and will eventually get around to PROBABLY using some of the twin weapons. Preference. Besides, it's not much of an issue in a party of six where the main focus is tag shit before shit dies.


There's link to it in my sig. I need to update some of the info however.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Break- on 2006-10-30 16:53 ]</font>

[Zato-2TWO]

Whoa whoa WHOA, hold on there fella, I wasn't trying to incite ANYTHING, but you just up and lashed out at me. Lemme catch up on a few points here:


On 2006-10-30 16:23, Guilty-Mirage wrote
No offense, but having played WoW since release, that's complete bollocks. Everyone is not some kind of cookie-cutter. People do tend to use what works instead of random-ass crap like playing a Warrior who only uses a bow, but there are many, many, many, many different, valid options per class that all "work" very well.

People "like him" (as you said) are scaring themselves silly over some conspiracy to make everyone conform that doesn't exist. For an Arms Warrior, Sword spec is probably the best due to the mechanics behind how it works and how rage generation operates. Yet, do you see plenty of Arms Warriors in raiding guilds that aren't Sword spec'd? Hell yeah.

I apologize if I made a blind assumption, but that was what I picked up from my time playing WoW. Personally, my warrior got by just fine with a DW Fury Knuckle spec (which was, on my server, totally unheard of), and while I DID get a lot of raised eyebrows every time I drew my weapons, no one questioned me when they saw my Rage bar full in the blink of an eye.

It's just the experience I had with certain people made me feel that going against the tide was a punishing experience. Again, I apologize for the blind assumption.


On 2006-10-30 16:23, Guilty-Mirage wrote
No, it really isn't. I'm sorry if you found some low level moron who thought it was his job to read forums and then (mis)quote high level advice out of context like it was gospel to lower level folks, but that's not what the average WoW gamer is like.

Unless you're doing something totally stupid (like nuking as a priest when people are dying, or refusing to tank as a warrior when the monster's eating a mage's face off), most people really don't care about mathcraft. Long as the instance run gets done and loot gets distributed, the vast majority of WoW gamers are thrilled.

I was indeed a gamer who played as I like, but I wasn't stupid about it. If the group didn't have a tank, I'd put down my knuckles and get my 1H sword and shield. As a priest, I hardly even *dealt* any damage, because I was constantly on watch to make sure everyone was healed (don't get me wrong, I loved playing that way). But in my time I DID get a LOT of people giving me crap for not being optimized or playing the way I did. In every PUG there was always at least ONE person that had a problem with anything I did, ESPECIALLY ungrateful warriors that had a problem with me 'healing too much'. Again, I apologize if my assumption appeared to cover the entire expanse of WoW players. I have met a certain few who didn't mind (and sometimes were appreciative) of how I chose to play the game, but with most people I felt I was pressured to conform to a molded build.

In general though, I cannot STAND people who say "Learn to play, noob!", because hell, I AM playing the game. When it came down to that, it was like I was being made to feel that making my own decisions isn't what was called 'playing the game'.


On 2006-10-30 16:23, Guilty-Mirage wrote
And WoW? Geared toward hardcore gamers?

Just... no. WoW is extremely oriented toward casual gaming compared to most MMORPGs.

It could just be me then, and if you picked up the wrong message I apologize again. I just felt that I couldn't just grind for an hour and then get back to work because I never quite feel that I accomplished enough. One of the things I disliked about WoW was that it was SO geared towards end-game content that I felt I wasn't really 'getting the WoW experience' unless I was lvl 60, and that getting to lvl 60 was just an unecessarily long and agonizing journey. I never even HAD a lvl 60, because I couldn't keep myself satisfied with the game on a casual level.


On 2006-10-30 16:23, Guilty-Mirage wrote
That's the kind of junk that starts these arguments. Could you possibly drop the condescending bull **** for one minute? Could you possibly realize that people who don't focus on stats and numbers are focusing on something else no less or more valid for a source of entertainment in a game? Could you possibly realize that EVERYONE plays "for fun" and that the people who do focus heavily on numbers and such ARE playing "for fun" just as much as you?

Oh, I know. You'll say "when I say 'for fun' I mean something else, you're taking it the wrong way..." But every time you contrast "for fun" players against "stat" players indirectly or directly, you're suggesting - whether intentionally or not - that anyone who doesn't play "for fun" (as you define it) is some kind of joyless malcontent heartlessly slaving away at the game like it's some kind of Herculean toil.

You're trying to play peacemaker, but you're playing favorites and just contributing to the myth that starts this kind of crap in the first place.

Condescending? I'd NEVER condescend someone I don't even know, and I apologize again if you took it the wrong way.

Fact is, I HAVE seen the two extremes of this scale between statistical players and casual players. I won't deny that there is a gap between the two different kinds of people, but I don't mean this specifically about you. The point I was trying to make is that there IS a middle ground between the two. In fact, I advocate that statistical players and casual players try to enjoy what the other does! Of course you can have fun breaking down the game's mechanics, I understand. There ARE people who like watching big numbers pop out of monsters, and frankly I find it's a bit rewarding myself to see my character kicking so much ass on a statistical level. And of course a casual player can benefit from having a statistical look into the game's mechanics and finding out what exactly the things they do actually do. It's like art; you'll find people who prefer form and discipline to understand their craft and work along (or around) those lines to paint their masterpieces, and you'll find people who prefer to be freeform and overflow with creativity, but sometimes it's more beneficial to have a bit of each.



Again, I mean no offense to anyone here. I just wanted to say something a bit more expansive than "To each their own", because I feel that the middle ground of gamers' mindsets often goes ignored. Guilty-Mirage, I hope you understand that this is not a personal attack, but a response with which I intend to understand your stance and hopefully reach a compromise of ideas.

[Sorenia]

But PLEASE people, don't declare war on one another!
This is hard to stop. Usually you've got people from both sides getting annoyed at the rude/immature people from the other side and then becoming rude in turn to everyone associated with said rude person. Resulting in mass flames between people who are probablly usually pretty polite.

Game balance needs to happen though. The only people who won't benefit from balance are those people who want some class/combo to suck just so they can pick it to stand out. In respect to the need for balance though people should chill with the "just do whats fun" stuff because obviously such threads already imply "fun" isn't happening.

[Sorenia]

This is not a game mechanics thread. It's a thread about the relative worth of twin weapons, and "fun", "style" and "cool" can and must play a part in that.


See that's exactly NOT what this thread is about. It IS a game mechanics thread. The problem you are having understanding this situation is that to you fun isn't linked to effectiveness.

You need to sit back and understand that for the topic starter though clearly "fun" isn't going to happen with an underpowered weapon. That will allow you to ignore the thread without trying to tell them that their idea of fun is somehow wrong.

[Divanti]

For me personally, there's something very satisfying about slashing an enemy up and then blasting him in the face with your handgun before he can hit you back...

[-Break-]

On 2006-10-30 16:51, -Break- wrote:
[quote]On 2006-10-29 23:10, Pengfishh wrote:
There's a thread around here, someone will post it soon enough, that details the clocked times it takes to execute a combo with each weapon type. Twin daggers were the fastest by far, which means most damage per second.

But! It's all up to preference. I like having a gun in my offhand and using a single dagger, but I also like using spears and will eventually get around to PROBABLY using some of the twin weapons. Preference. Besides, it's not much of an issue in a party of six where the main focus is tag shit before shit dies.


There's link to it in my sig. I just finished updating it.

EDIT: Damn it. Hit the quote button instead of the edit button agian. >.<



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Break- on 2006-10-30 23:49 ]</font>

[Shiro_Ryuu]

well, I just started playing online with my human hunter and I have to say that I was using twin sabers and they're not half bad at all in an environment in which there are other people playing. the only problem I had is when some guy of a much higher level came and just hogged all of the kills for himself, not picking up the keys or setting up the checkpoints, just running ahead of us and taking hogging the EXP. back on topic, Twin Sabers FTW.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shiroryuu on 2006-10-31 04:20 ]</font>

[Alisha]

i have to agree that twin sabers suck and twin daggars. in fact the only twin weapon i really care for is twin claws,although even though i like twin claws the single claw pa dominates the twin claw pa in damage output the only pa's that compare to it are tornado dance and that single daggar pa where you flip with kicks and such.

[Zarbolord]

Although I haven't played yet, I'm sure each version of the weapon, be it dual, double, or single can be effective in it's own ways. Also, they still have to unlock stuff, so don't say they're useless.

[Pure-chan]

I haven't played too much with twin sabers as of yet, but I like the twin dagger PA so far. They do a decent job of sweeping out swarms of weaker enemies and are quick enough that they don't get interrupted much. They aren't my primary hu wep, but they seem to fill their role well enough. Why is everyone so down on them vs. non-twin weps?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pure-chan on 2006-10-31 10:33 ]</font>

[Alisha]

why use the twin daggar pa when you could use tornado break and for more damage?

[Kjeldor]

It has to do with preference and how you want to attack.. it doesnt mean you can automaticly shut down twin weaps and think you can do away with them your not a game creater

[Pure-chan]

On 2006-10-31 10:46, Alisha wrote:
why use the twin daggar pa when you could use tornado break and for more damage?



That's sort of like asking 'why use Talim, when you could use Nightmare?' http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

I'm not down on Tornado Break at all. It's a strong PA. The larger attack radius and higher damage are both great selling points vs. twin daggers.

The main reason I prefer the twin dagger PA for sweeping out smaller enemies is the advantage in speed. In areas like the ruins, you end up facing droves of annoying enemies that hop in and out of range. The wind-up for Tornado Break takes too long for my tastes - allowing enemies to either hop back out of range or jump in and interrupt your PA before you can pull it off. Daggers on the other hand, allow you to target and stunlock jumpy enemies, due to the much higher rate of fire and the forward motion of the attack, which lets you jab at enemies trying to backpeddle.

Also, the knockback from Tornado Break PA seems to push enemies away, meaning that you have to run after anything that you don't kill, then charge up for another sluggish swing. Daggers do the exact opposite - trapping swarms into a steady stream of hits.

I think that they're both very good PA's and that it mainly boils down to preference. If you like hammering everything with a car-bumper sized slab of photon, go for it! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif For myself, I enjoy twin daggers a little bit more in this situation.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pure-chan on 2006-10-31 19:29 ]</font>