NGC mini DVDs impression by view of an electronics technicia

[Vic_Viper]

(This text is a bit technical)

It's been a while companies like Datel(Action Replay/Gameshark) and FCD(Xploder/Codebraker/X-Terminator) promissed a cheat device for Nintendo Game Cube. The Matsushita midi DVDs are NOT manufacturated with same specifications as the ones used for standard DVD discs, which means that retail unit's drives being not capable of reading standard DVDs. If it can't read standard DVDs it makes really hard to put the code on discs a standard retail NGC machine can read. I doubt they are going to sink some hundreds of thousand dollars on a factory that can only make discs for the Cube.
Also, by it being a patented security technology, the only company that has rights to make such discs is Matsushita (Panasonic).
This is a legal issue that surely will make these cheat devices impossible to make and sell.

Also, I did some testing on the Cube with several types of discs, And no it cannot read anything else but it's own discs. It has only a single laser beam, while most DVD drives have two (one for CDs and other for DVDs, with diferent wavelenghts.) I wonder if even the laser used has a diferent wavelenght than the original spec DVD laser.

I'd like to call your attention to the fact that Nintendo NEVER liked people cheating on their games. They ever got code on some of their "blockbuster" games on the attempt to detect and disable cheating devices.



So it's just my two cents about the cheating devices on the Game Cube. I really DOUBT they will EVER get a cheat device out for it. For good !

[DJ_Monkey]

All I can say is: Way to go, Nintendo!

Factories cost way more than hundreds of thousands of dollars; factories just to create disks can run up into the millions.

I knew that the GameCube wouldn't be profitable for the cheating companies, but this just confirms it.

[Tavia]

The only disadvantages to such an exclusive format are the additional costs which must be footed by developers and, of course, the GameCube's inability to play anything other than its own game discs. This is nice, makes the system unique, and does keep out cheap disc cheat devices and such, but it also makes the system more of a bother to develop for.

The Nintendo 64 and the Dreamcast suffered in the same way. Look at what happened to them, and look at what's slowly happening to the GameCube. It's sad. It's not right. It's unfair. Unfortunately, it's reality. Not being mainstream hurts.

America is one of the most important countries in the world to videogame manufacturers when it comes to making a profit -- yes, even more so than Japan, despite what you may think. There is a massive civilization in the United States, and they sure love their toys. Sadly, America is also known for its large amount of uncouth gamers who think nothing of cheating. (Hell, they probably cheat in plenty of ways in their "real lives" as well, though I personally count videogames as part of that anyway.) Disgusting as it is, cheat devices are profitable. Very much so.

And people will play online on PSO and cheat because they just love it. It makes the game so easy, and they can lord over those who try to be legitimate. So goes the lust for easily gained power.

Ah, talk about getting carried away! That's enough thinking for me. I'm gonna go play PSO.

[Wewt]

On 2002-12-02 15:27, Tavia wrote:
The only disadvantages to such an exclusive format are the additional costs which must be footed by developers and, of course, the GameCube's inability to play anything other than its own game discs. This is nice, makes the system unique, and does keep out cheap disc cheat devices and such, but it also makes the system more of a bother to develop for.


The cost might be annoying to developers, but I seriously doubt that making these custom-made discs are that much of a hassle, and costly, for developers compared to the old carts. I doubt the cost is even close. Yeah, yeah, I know, DVDs are mainstream, so it'll be cheaper than the GameCube discs.

The PS2 is the mother bitch of them all to develop for, this is well-known, too. The GameCube is supposedly the easiest to develop for. Remember that the GameCube is a plain ol' games console, and not a multimedia machine like its competitors.

One thing for sure, developers should get their games, especially online titles, thoroughly tested for any kind of bugs that could be badly exploited, before releasing to the general public. Worry about the cheat-devices later.

[Tavia]

On 2002-12-03 02:47, WWWWWWWWWWWW wrote:

On 2002-12-02 15:27, Tavia wrote:
The only disadvantages to such an exclusive format are the additional costs which must be footed by developers and, of course, the GameCube's inability to play anything other than its own game discs. This is nice, makes the system unique, and does keep out cheap disc cheat devices and such, but it also makes the system more of a bother to develop for.


The cost might be annoying to developers, but I seriously doubt that making these custom-made discs are that much of a hassle, and costly, for developers compared to the old carts. I doubt the cost is even close.

No argument here. The only thing I meant to mention was that there is a cost difference, not necessarily an identical one. The case itself, however, is the same.

Yeah, yeah, I know, DVDs are mainstream, so it'll be cheaper than the GameCube discs.

The PS2 is the mother bitch of them all to develop for, this is well-known, too. The GameCube is supposedly the easiest to develop for. Remember that the GameCube is a plain ol' games console, and not a multimedia machine like its competitors.

Once again, agreed. It is ironic, in an amusing way, that the PlayStation 2, what with its primary processor and two vector units, is such a pain to work with. Why ironic? Ah. So many PSX fanboys loved to bash the Sega Saturn for its dual processor architecture.

That always entertains me.

One thing for sure, developers should get their games, especially online titles, thoroughly tested for any kind of bugs that could be badly exploited, before releasing to the general public. Worry about the cheat-devices later.

That seems to be approximately what SonicTeam is doing, as well. They could have waited until the FreeLoader seriously penetrated the market, but they released the newest version prior to that nonetheless.

However, PSO, as it is, is virtually bug free. As I've said before, the game is certainly solid, and there are many things that players take for granted. Yes, it is unfortunate that there are people who exploit these bugs... but players like that will always be out there. Furthermore, the patching of bugs will not fix countless players' lack of courtesy, willingness to steal, and generally unsportsmanlike behavior.

You'll always have bad players, no matter what you do. Nothing, no matter how many times it is tested or patched, is ever perfect.

[Wewt]

On 2002-12-03 09:45, Tavia wrote:
That seems to be approximately what SonicTeam is doing, as well. They could have waited until the FreeLoader seriously penetrated the market, but they released the newest version prior to that nonetheless.
True, but I think you're forgetting one thing here... they didn't properly test the product they released. The trial version of GC PSO was a lot different to the final release, according to what I've read. They did fix a lot of the problems that were discovered by beta testers for the trial, but fixing those opened the door for others to come through.

About the Freeloader, it's not going to happen. It's illegal to make the damn thing. Matsushita own the rights to the GameCube media, and they will not sell to anybody that Nintendo doesn't authorise. Unless Nintendo cave in and allow cheaters on their console.


On 2002-12-03 09:45, Tavia wrote:
However, PSO, as it is, is virtually bug free. As I've said before, the game is certainly solid, and there are many things that players take for granted. Yes, it is unfortunate that there are people who exploit these bugs... but players like that will always be out there. Furthermore, the patching of bugs will not fix countless players' lack of courtesy, willingness to steal, and generally unsportsmanlike behavior.
The game crashes at random...

[Tavia]

On 2002-12-03 16:46, WWWWWWWWWWWW wrote:
The game crashes at random...

This statement reminds me of all the times when people would tell me that the Sega CD was a shoddily made system. Frequently, my friends would say "mine broke years ago" when we discussed whether we owned one or not, while others would say theirs made funny noises.

I have the first model of the Sega CD, the tray-loading one, which is the most infamous. And it still works beautifully to this day.

I guess it goes to show that it really depends upon the person. I have been playing the GameCube version for roughly 140 hours now, and I have not experienced a single unprecedented "freeze." I did suffer two BSODs, but I knew they were coming, and I found out why they were happening. I've since remedied the problem. On the DC version, I experienced a freeze while piping, but only one.

I still wouldn't say the game is bug-ridden. If it were, I would be having a far more dismal time than this. Nothing is perfect, and a few flaws here and there are fine with me. Again, though, that's only my opinion.

[BigDaddy]

Did you just say that PSO is bug free? Please tell me you did not just say that. You do realize there is a serious dupe bug in both the U.S.A. and JP versions don't you?

BB isn't the problem, PPPoE DSL users are the ones getting shafted. But considering that a majority of DSL providers out there use PPPoE technology, it is quite ludicrous why this problem even exists. And yes, the problem does exist, it doesn't just "vary from person to person." It is one of the main reasons why there will be a JP ver1.1, aside from the fact that they're trying to fix the dupe bug.

The PS2 is the most difficult system to develop for, but its high userbase more than makes up for it which is why all the developers flock to it.

Looking at it disc per disc, no, the cost doesn't seem that much. However, games are shipped out in the hundred thousands, good games are shipped out in the millions. When you add the small dollars in between... they add up to a lot.

Datel and Pelican don't have to purchase the legal rights to manufacture Panasonic's special discs (Besides, Panasonic won't sell it to them anyway. Nintendo bought it for that reason that Panasonic would not sell it to anyone else in their market, so that no unofficial software would ever be released for the GC.) They can reverse engineer a disc that is readable by the GC but have nothing to do with Panasonic's format. I am assuming that that is exactly what they are doing right now, which is why the cheat devices are taking so long to release because this is not an easy task.

Why would it cost "millions" to open up plants? What is the GC userbase, like 5 or 6 million? They're not producing hardware here, it's software. Not a "huge" bulk of software either, just enough to satisfy the projected demand for the product. Think about it, why would a 3rd party developer open up a plant that can churn out 1 million pieces of software every month when the userbase they are selling the software for doesn't even have 6 million users? In addition, both Pelican and Datel have manufacturing plants already. It is why they are called 3rd party hardware/software manufacturers. All it is is just a matter of changing the technology on some branches to produce whatever new thing they need to produce.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BigDaddy on 2002-12-04 08:37 ]</font>

[Tavia]

On 2002-12-04 08:35, BigDaddy wrote:
Did you just say that PSO is bug free? Please tell me you did not just say that.


You're right -- I didn't.

[Wewt]

On 2002-12-04 08:35, BigDaddy wrote:
Datel and Pelican don't have to purchase the legal rights to manufacture Panasonic's special discs (Besides, Panasonic won't sell it to them anyway. Nintendo bought it for that reason that Panasonic would not sell it to anyone else in their market, so that no unofficial software would ever be released for the GC.) They can reverse engineer a disc that is readable by the GC but have nothing to do with Panasonic's format. I am assuming that that is exactly what they are doing right now, which is why the cheat devices are taking so long to release because this is not an easy task.
As stated above, the GC has a single laser, to read a single type of media - the GC discs that can only be obtained, legally, by Matsushita. So, no, they cannot just make these discs. That's pretty much piracy.


On 2002-12-04 08:35, BigDaddy wrote:
Why would it cost "millions" to open up plants? What is the GC userbase, like 5 or 6 million? They're not producing hardware here, it's software. Not a "huge" bulk of software either, just enough to satisfy the projected demand for the product. Think about it, why would a 3rd party developer open up a plant that can churn out 1 million pieces of software every month when the userbase they are selling the software for doesn't even have 6 million users? In addition, both Pelican and Datel have manufacturing plants already. It is why they are called 3rd party hardware/software manufacturers. All it is is just a matter of changing the technology on some branches to produce whatever new thing they need to produce.
You can't just "change the technology on some branches to produce whatever new thing they need to produce", not that easy. Either way, it's not the site where you'll be producing your product that's going to be the most costly, it's the machinery. Since you're saying they can just switch around their machinery, it's still a no. They can't make these discs. It is illegal.

[Vic_Viper]

On 2002-12-04 06:41, Tavia wrote:

On 2002-12-03 16:46, WWWWWWWWWWWW wrote:
The game crashes at random...

This statement reminds me of all the times when people would tell me that the Sega CD was a shoddily made system. Frequently, my friends would say "mine broke years ago" when we discussed whether we owned one or not, while others would say theirs made funny noises.

I have the first model of the Sega CD, the tray-loading one, which is the most infamous. And it still works beautifully to this day.


I own a japanese model 1 Mega-CD, which already had it1s problems.(remember it's a year older than yours and by that time, japanese machines were built with cheaper parts, because they usually trash damaged products instead of repairing.) But still as I am a technician, I had to trouble to fix it. It was a problem related to the dry weather of the region where I live that damaged eletrolythic capacitors inside the machine. Replaced the parts and the machine got the same good reading it had originally when bought. A exelent audio CD player also, the machine uses a 3-laser beam SONY optical pickup from 1990. At the time that part was used only on high quality CD players.
Most SEGA-CD problems I got when I worked on a SEGA repair center was caused by miss use and abuse on the hardware. Just to confirm what you said.
Usually SEGA machines are well built, but Nintendo ones are warcrafts ... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif They can take much more abuse than SEGA ones. Just think of the market Nintendo mainly targets to... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif (Kids from 5 to 14 yrs)

[Vic_Viper]

On 2002-12-04 15:51, WWWWWWWWWWWW wrote:

As stated above, the GC has a single laser, to read a single type of media - the GC discs that can only be obtained, legally, by Matsushita. So, no, they cannot just make these discs. That's pretty much piracy.

That is pretty much what I mean with this topic.
By how nintendo acted back in 1988 when Codemasters hacked into the NES with a piece of software/hardware (the game genie) they WILL DO ALL THE POSSIBLE TO DENY EXECUTION OF UNLICENCED SOFTWARE IN ANY FORM.
Since more than 6 months have passed since the cheat device makers promissed the AR and the Freeloader, you guys can probably assume it will not be ever finished. I feel bad for people who did pre order Freeloader or the Action Replay ... (LMAO)


You can't just "change the technology on some branches to produce whatever new thing they need to produce", not that easy. Either way, it's not the site where you'll be producing your product that's going to be the most costly, it's the machinery. Since you're saying they can just switch around their machinery, it's still a no. They can't make these discs. It is illegal.



That's why making a factory plant just to make mini DVDs that have no use but Gamecubes is a TOAL NONSENSE. Datel PS2 discs are standard CD-ROMs with the same special markings SONY does on their discs made for the PS2 console. They can make PS1 discs as well... They can even make pressed silver CD-ROMs that boot on the Pplaystation. But a CD-ROM factory can be used to make standard discs for PC or music discs as well. So there's a point on setting a CD or a standard DVD factory as they will be able to make standard discs. GC mini DVDs in other hand are not compatible with anything else but itself.

http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif
I never liked Nintendo, but this time they did it right ... Maybe too right ... lol

[Tavia]

On 2002-12-05 07:10, Vic_Viper wrote:
[quote]Usually SEGA machines are well built, but Nintendo ones are warcrafts ... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif They can take much more abuse than SEGA ones. Just think of the market Nintendo mainly targets to... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif (Kids from 5 to 14 yrs)

You're right about that, especially when it comes to the GameBoy. Most of the people here probably remember the stories in Nintendo Power and other various magazines where the systems were absolutely trashed, yet still worked somehow.

(I find this kind of funny, though, in an ironic way. Right above this is a post where I talk about how my Sega CD still works... but my first black and white GameBoy broke about a year after I got it.)

However, I think you may agree with me that the original NES -- not the Famicom, but the US' and some other countries' version -- was not so well built. If you took good care of it, of course, it would likely serve you well... but that loading tray seemed to be a nightmare for so many. One of my friends' NES only worked if you shoved one game in, pushed it down, and shoved another game in on top of it to keep it down.

Of course, something like that could be repaired... it probably consisted of no more than a spring mechanism. Still, I think that was very common.

[Wewt]

Nintendo's machines are fantastic. Out of all the ones I've had, only one has had a problem that wasn't my fault. My N64's reset button had stopped working somehow, I had no idea how or why, and it still doesn't work to this day, not that I care anymore. This is the only problem I've ever had with a Nintendo console. Even my 10-year-old GameBoy from Hong Kong is still in perfect-working condition.

[BonusKun]

On 2002-12-02 15:27, Tavia wrote:
The only disadvantages to such an exclusive format are the additional costs which must be footed by developers and, of course, the GameCube's inability to play anything other than its own game discs. This is nice, makes the system unique, and does keep out cheap disc cheat devices and such, but it also makes the system more of a bother to develop for.

In Comparasion to the Devlopment of Dreamcast Media such as the GDrom format the only thing I can fault this arguement with is the fact that once the code got broken, Pirated Dreamcast Software became easy to get ahold of and thus I would daresay that more money was lost to lack of sales due to the piracy of game sofware.

Generally most people are cheap and they use the old standby of why pay for it when i can get it for free?

The Gamecube Discs are smaller yes and the cost of making them is a lot more than a standard CDrom format but I would venture to guess that a lot of money was saved due to the Gamecube not being a console that you can easily pirate software for.

[TeamPhalanx]

To start..

What's this technician's background. I didn't see anything in the post that I didn't already know.

Second, making any type of CD/DVD based format is pretty damn easy and cheap. Why do you think there are several free demos out there? If you want a quote, I can find one from a stock market analyst who said that nintendo's early profits will lie in their cheap production of the discs.

There has been a cheat device for every major Nintendo system released, no?

I wouldn't bank on the disc hurdle to stop a cheat device from being released. Odds are, the developer and Nintendo are already in talks about releasing it on the system.

[Vic_Viper]

On 2002-12-05 17:26, TeamPhalanx wrote:
To start..

What's this technician's background. I didn't see anything in the post that I didn't already know.


Actually all I wanted to expose here is the dificulty the cheat device maker DATEL is having with
the Game Cube.

Second, making any type of CD/DVD based format is pretty damn easy and cheap. Why do you think there are several free demos out there? If you want a quote, I can find one from a stock market analyst who said that nintendo's early profits will lie in their cheap production of the discs.
There has been a cheat device for every major Nintendo system released, no?

Yes, I agree with you. But GC is NOT a standard format. You cannot make a disc for it using standard DVD pressing machinery. It also DOESN'T read CD-Roms as Dreamcast do, which makes impossible to boot the cheat device on a unmodified game system. The Dreamcast failure was caused by a
severe lack of security on the boot code, which allows the boot of software without checking the barcode ring on the middle of a original GD.
It's SEGA fault. Now that Nintendo didn't left the backdoor open, the only way for Datel to get bootable Action Replay discs is getting it licenced by Nintendo.

About the cheat devices on other systems, here goes a list:
Nes, Rom/flash. Copy protection 1a0n.(code chip on cartridge, easy to pass through.)
SNES, Rom/flash. Copy protection F411 (code chip on the cartidge. Same idea as NES)
N64, Rom/flash and smartcards. To make it run on the N64 they did the same they did other Nintendo systems.They hacked into the custom built BUS used on the N64 cartridge.
Playstation, ROM on expansion port or Disc. The ROM device is possible to use on any PSX units and don't require any fancy custom made disc. About 3 years ago
Datel stabilished a company called "Thin Ice Media" which is capable of manufacturing discs bootable on unmoded PSX machines. Same factory also makes PS2 bootable discs. Sony tries to ban Gameshark from the PS2 by adding a sort of "shitlist" on each new revision of the console.
Saturn, Rom only. There's no factory capable of reproducing the barcode on original SEGA Saturn discs.

Each of these hacks are achieved by reverse-engineering and hacking on the boot code of the machines. In result the game companies were trying to make systems more secure by building more complex boot up code for licensed software. Still SEGA had one of the best copyprotections arround (A custom disc system, the GD rom and a barcode to lock the disc.) and it let a backdoor on the bootrom. Using the backdor, a pirate could both boot the trojan to turn the dreamcast into a GD reader and make it latter run the pirated copies. What a pity.


I wouldn't bank on the disc hurdle to stop a cheat device from being released. Odds are, the developer and Nintendo are already in talks about releasing it on the system.

Again, as I said on my first post, I believe Nintendo will not allow a cheat device on their system, judging by the position they took in the past.

Let's wait and see ...

[Maverynthia]

Usually SEGA machines are well built, but Nintendo ones are warcrafts ... They can take much more abuse than SEGA ones. Just think of the market Nintendo mainly targets to... (Kids from 5 to 14 yrs)

You have no idea!! I have an original NES the big boxy ones that have the cartloader and the cover...IT STILL FREAKING WORKS!!! Even after mutiple soda dumps, crumbs, kicking and hitting said device in frustration, being dropped in transit and the DUST.... Not only that all my games STILL save...The controller works too...SO..you'd have to basically strap c4 to it to kill it...


I hated Nintendo for keeping a cart format...I felt that these games could never be like their CD counterparts...I was mostly right...since a CD could hold more than a cart...

You're right about that, especially when it comes to the GameBoy. Most of the people here probably remember the stories in Nintendo Power and other various magazines where the systems were absolutely trashed, yet still worked somehow.

I killed the sound partially and dropped my GB a few times...keeps working though it has blank line on the screen, I COULD do what my bro did to his Nokia and toss it into a puddle of water, put it into a convection oven and then toss it in the freezer to solve that problem....Yes his Nokia still worked...



Anyways back ON topic. I do feel safer knowing that the GC discs are secure...I tried to load it into my standard DVD player to see if I could find the images used in a game so I could make wallpaper from them..the damn thing Chooched my system into a lockup and my DVD-ROM player kept trying to read the disc and wouldn't eject it... So burning one of these thing seems impossible either...It's a new one so it can read any format out there...except GC...^_^

[BigDaddy]

The only thing Datel/Pelican would have to change in their factories would be what they're pressing on their minis. What is so difficult about that?

The delay of the Action Replay is because of Interact and Datel's squabble with each other, not because the GC is so "difficult to hack."

Yes, we know that the GC can only read Panasonic minis, but there's a way around everything... that's why it's called reverse engineering. The DC was only supposed to read videogame data off the GD-ROM format, look how that turned out. Regardless, from what I understand, Datel has already bought the rights to manufacture the Panasonic minis, so this argument is moot.

Nintendo sued back in 1988 and guess what? They lost, what makes you think they'll win this time around? That is why there has been a cheat device for every Nintendo system released (except maybe the N64DD and Virtual Boy).

[Wewt]

On 2002-12-19 05:53, BigDaddy wrote:
Yes, we know that the GC can only read Panasonic minis, but there's a way around everything... that's why it's called reverse engineering. The DC was only supposed to read videogame data off the GD-ROM format, look how that turned out.
The DC allowed you to read CD-Rs, so that pretty much screwed it up. The GC supposedly ONLY reads ONE type of media, so unless you get permission from Nintendo/Panasonic, you can't make these discs.


On 2002-12-19 05:53, BigDaddy wrote:
Regardless, from what I understand, Datel has already bought the rights to manufacture the Panasonic minis, so this argument is moot.

From what you understand? OK, so tell us where you got this information from. If not, your argument is invalid, or should I say "moot".

[BigDaddy]

"Welcome to Action Replay, the incredible new cheat system that unleashes the true power of your Nintendo GameCube. With Action Replay even a complete novice can become a real gaming guru overnight!"

This is the opening of the official item description given by Datel to AJG-Games in the UK. It continues...

"Action Replay is the only cheat system designed specifically for GameCube. Using Datel's advanced proprietary technology, the Action Replay cheat system can unlock even the very toughest games at the press of a button."

This is the statement which I misread. When I was skimming through it, I saw proprietary format and I took it as Datel having bought the mini-DVD rights from Matsushita. That is not the case. Datel has reverse engineered their own proprietary disc that is readable by the GC but having nothing to do with with Panasonic's minis.

You're not understanding. The main point about the DC was that the DC hardware was reverse engineered where it was able to read data that it should not have been able to read. The same exact thing is happening to the GC in this situation.

All the GC laser is doing is saying, "OK, you can only read this type of data format." What if you could mimic that data format? Again, this was done on the DC, this is what is being done here.

Reading on, here is probably the most devastating piece of news for PSO fans.

"You also receive a piece of hardware which must be inserted into your memory card slot before the Action Replay CD is loaded. This special card stores any new codes that you input (for example if you buy a new GameCube game), letting you build your own customised library of cheats."

You don't need to remove the Modem/BBA in order to use the Action Replay.

Lastly, I must repeat, the only reason we are seeing delays is because Datel and Interact had a distributing agreement here in North America. That distributing agreement Datel wants to end early, so as of right now, the two are not in good terms. Whenever it settles is the time the product will release. Again, betas of the damn thing are already out. If you go to the codejunkies site, codes are already out!

[Wewt]

First of all, do you mind showing me where you got this information from? I don't really believe something like this until I receive it from a source that I trust, or an official source. No offence to you, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Anyway...

Datel have made cheat devices and such, which was software. Now, they say they have created a disc format that is readable by the Nintendo GameCube, which supposedly ONLY reads Matsushita's patented custom disc? That does sound a little farfetched to me, I'll wait on more announcements before I comment on that again.

I do understand that the Dreamcast got reverse engineered so that people could put pirate games onto a regular CD. Thus the boot disc; Utopia, that "tricks" the Dreamcast into what it will be reading next, right?

So now there's a piece of hardware that you put into the memory card slot. The chances of it being able to use this thing online has just dramatically increased.

Funny how you say Datel and Interact dispute over distribution over North America. I live in the UK, so is there another reason as to why I don't see this thing in game stores?

I went to their site, there was a recent announcement, concerning the Freeloader and Action Replay products. This article can be found here (http://www.codejunkies.com/article.asp?c=GB&cr=GBP&cs=?&r=1&l=1&i=5210). Just something I thought you might want to read.

[BigDaddy]

On 2002-12-20 17:15, WWWWWWWWWWWW wrote:
First of all, do you mind showing me where you got this information from? I don't really believe something like this until I receive it from a source that I trust, or an official source. No offence to you, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I already gave you the source in my last post. If you want an exact link:www.ajg-games.co.uk (http://www.ajg-games.co.uk/gc-action_replay.html). This is the item description Datel has been sending UK/U.S. dealers, so ajg-games isn't the only site you'll see that info from.

"Our products are not officially licensed by Nintendo so they sometimes take longer to develop than we would like, and this has unfortunately been the case with these two GameCube products."- http://www.codejunkies.com

This statement tells you exactly what you need to hear. Nintendo has been rattling unofficial software developers since the NES days. Again, guess what? Time and time again, they've lost. Their biggest push was in 1988 when they went out and filed a lawsuit. If they want to make another big push and file a lawsuit, they will get the same exact result.

"The delay is due to some minor technical issues in duplicating the discs, which we are currently pouring all our resources into (so much so, that we've had to postpone all Xbox development until these have been resolved)."- http://www.codejunkies.com

You're misunderstanding this statement. They are having problems dupelicating THEIR proprietary discs. It's not that they're having problems trying to get a license to manufacture the Panasonic discs, why would they need to when they are using their own proprietary format?

Why is it far-fetched that they have reverse-engineered the GC to this extent? There is a way around everything. Again, all the laser does is tell the GC, "You can only read this type of data in this type of format." That's all it's doing, any good hacker can mimic that data, the difficult part is mimicking the format. Datel has already accomplished both.

Which pirated DC games needed a boot disc? None of them did. The only pirated games that needed boot discs were unofficial ported PC to DC games like Quake and pirated games that had been burned via the "old DC pirating method." In fact, if you used a Code Breaker, GameShark, or Utopia to boot more current pirated DC games, they won't load!


On 2002-12-20 17:15, WWWWWWWWWWWW wrote:
Funny how you say Datel and Interact dispute over distribution over North America. I live in the UK, so is there another reason as to why I don't see this thing in game stores?

Because Datel is not a large company. Interact is. Squabbling with Interact in a territory they have no idea about, you better believe is costly and time consuming. You're talking about totally different laws in two different countries. That's new lawyers they would have to hire and new PRs they would need to advertise and distribute the Action Replay. For a small company, this is not an easy task. Juggling between the product's release in your home country while negotiationg a settlement with a publisher to avoid a lawsuit in another country. Let's not forget the fact that they're having touble dupelicating their proprietary discs.

Conclusion: This product is going to be released no matter how long it takes.

Conclusion: PSO will always have cheaters as long as Offline Mode exists.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BigDaddy on 2002-12-21 07:22 ]</font>

[Vic_Viper]

I do understand that the Dreamcast got reverse engineered so that people could put pirate games onto a regular CD. Thus the boot disc; Utopia, that "tricks" the Dreamcast into what it will be reading next, right?


Actually, for the Dreamcast the thing was a little worse than that.
The Gigadisc media and drive were developed with the idea of becoming a multipurpose storage media for home entertainment (Dreamcast) and professional use (arcade). Since they used standard CD-ROM chips to build the original GD hardware. (In the original GD rom unit they used a OAK Technolgies OTI-9220 embbeded standard CD-Rom controller and a H8 microcontroller as drive CPU) Since GD-Rom is a sort of firmware hack plus a Yamaha custom chip (YDC-1222B) it doesn't take away the hability of reading standard discs out of the drive. The problem is that the drive don't require any type of disc authentication prior to allowing data access. All the security was supposed to be done by the system software. BUT the system software HAS a special boot up code for allowing a specially built CD-Rom disc to boot without any type of authenticity check. With that you are able to run a trojan on the system and then use the unit drive to read out data from legal discs. After this is done, you can use the same method used to boot the trojan to run the illegal copies on the Dreamcast.

It's SEGA fault on first place, for letting the bios available for dumping and for don't removing backdoor boot code on the rom. They did removed the code latter, but at that time pirates were making copies of the old bios on flashroms and soldering on the place of the fixed bootrom.

I think that if the pirates didn't got acess to run a trojan in the system in first place the DC was giong to be alive until nowdays.

So in the end it was SEGA's fault that the piracy killed the DC.


And a comment about game cube:
The GC bios, which is stored inside the flipper chip seems to remain undumped so far ... http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[Barubary6]

I have a lot to say here.

1. Dreamcast

Sega had a unique idea when they made the Dreamcast - they wanted to be able to make CDs that are like CD Extra disks on PC - in an audio player, they play music, but on a Dreamcast, they run a program. Several of these "DC Extra" disks were released in Japan. However, there was no copy protection on this format. It was through this mechanism that Game Shark for DC was made. As soon as Game Shark came out, pirates analyzed it like crazy, and figured out very quickly that they could use this mechanism themselves.

As for the GD-ROM format, it wasn't a whole lot different than a multisession CD-ROM with a higher linear density in the second (big) session. Also, the copy protection is exactly the same as the Saturn. You know the "PRODUCED BY OR LICENSED BY SEGA" thing on the bottom that is human-readable? That's the protection. Believe it or not, that data is computer-readable. It writes a million copies of the letter Y to represent the light areas and 0xA9 to represent the dark areas. Why the letter Y? Because most CD writers and mastering systems can't write long sequences of Y's. That's what "Amplify Weak Sectors" is all about in Clone CD. Try burning a wave file of Y's as an audio track then read it back...


2. Gamecube

Gamecube's custom format is actually not as complicated as you guys think. It's actually just a modified DVD format. They only use a different error correction algorithm. If you stick a GC disk into a PC DVD-ROM, it will say that the disk is 1.5 gigabytes. It can do this because the Table of Contents doesn't use the DVD error correction system.

Any company with a DVD mastering system and reverse engineering expertise can make Gamecube disks.


3. Xbox

The Xbox will probably never have a cheat device. This is because Microsoft has relied upon *mathematical* security, not because of any superior copy protection system. Microsoft's "DVD-X2" disks were cracked literally within a week after the system came out, since analysis started on the game disks 2 weeks before that.

Microsoft's "ingenious" (and cruel) idea was not to care so much about copy protection and instead concentrate on blocking unauthorized software. Their copy protection system is a joke. Hong Kong and Taiwan would easily be able to mass-produce illegal copies that boot without a mod chip, but they don't care because the Xbox isn't popular in Asia.

Microsoft's method makes it so that being able to reproduce games exactly doesn't get you *any* closer to making a cheat device. This is because of the digital signature system. Unless Microsoft digitally signs a program, it will never run on an unmodded Xbox, no matter how well you can make DVD-X2 disks. In other words, you can make as many illegal copies of Halo as you like that work on unmodded systems, but you will never make a Game Shark, at least for the next 20 years (until quantum computers come).

-- Barubary

[Castoth]

Great, hearing that you can store codes using the memory card means that some of the more malicious cheats can be used online again, mainly FSOD/RSOD eventually. Also considering Sega's lax attitude about the American servers as a whole, I doubt much will be done about it. While it won't be nearly as bad as DC PSO was (hopefully, no game ever becomes that bad off again), it could still become unplayable.

I really want to get the XBox version now at least but the facts that there still is no set US release date and no friends I know of on it put a dimmer on that idea. This is also not to mention that Microsoft would be running the servers so we might actually see some quality service on our shores for once compared to Sega. Really, that system does seem to have the potential to have the undisputable best version of PSO (not to mention the true sequel will require a HD so XBox would be in the running anyway) but with no one to play it with, what's the point?

*sighs*

Maybe it's time to play in open games again and hope some people are cool to play with, if I go the XBox route...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Castoth on 2002-12-22 03:00 ]</font>

[BigDaddy]

At this point in time, whether a cheat device releases for any of the systems is irrelevant, because as long as there is an Offline Mode, duping will exist in all versions in all platforms of PSO.

I have already abandoned the import version. The only way I'm playing PSO again is either if I somehow miracly find a way to get ver1.1 or if there are enough extra features on the XBox to warrant a final purchase. Most likely, the XBox version seeing as that it will be the last console to get a cheat device.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BigDaddy on 2002-12-22 01:54 ]</font>

[Castoth]

Duping doesn't bother me too much. It's just the fact that those kiddies that get a kick out of disrupting other people's fun now have an option of doing so. Once a lobby FSOD/RSOD code gets released again, all one can do is avoid crowded lobbies and, if unlucky, hope that no corruption occurs. And then a new passbreak code will probably get released as well and if it's like last time, it will take ST a month to finally patch it. I just have serious doubts now...

[BigDaddy]

There was never any doubt in my mind that PSO wouldn't be ruined. The minute I heard the Offline Mode would stick, right then and there I knew cheating would be rampant once again.

[rena-ko]

read this whole thread so far and barubarys post was (obviously) the most interesting one. seems like x-box is great when it comes to onlinegaming then.

somehow good and somehow bad to hear.
good is:
when i once shall overcome my personal aversion against microsoft, i'll purchase one of those teatables (thinking of, it would fit my apartement quite well since i dont have a table yet ^-^ - no honestly - size would be fitting) or its (claimed) smaller successor...
bad is:
not very much japanese and actually worse: not very much of those i know and actually play with would do as well and so one i think it would get boring soon...
no, this is no system-bashing, the only console i'm fan of will dead withing 3 months from now on, this is just a personal thought...

well, i made up my mind on that freeloader - i wont purchase it, even if it gets released in the near future and would allow me to play some long wanted imports, since i'd support any kind of action replay this way.

[Sol-Invictus]

On 2002-12-02 15:27, Tavia wrote:

The Nintendo 64 and the Dreamcast suffered in the same way. Look at what happened to them, and look at what's slowly happening to the GameCube.
Zuh? Dreamcast suffered because its storage media was TOO mainstream. Most GD-Rom games didn't use anywhere near the full size of the disc and because of it everyone and their grandma could pirate DC games onto burned CDs.

[Sedyne]

Well then if Datel or ActionReplay company wanted to buy rights to the disc they could simply do so by going through panasonic. I'm sorry but Nintendo can eat my a$$ they fukk ups.

[Jace_100]

However, I think you may agree with me that the original NES -- not the Famicom, but the US' and some other countries' version -- was not so well built. If you took good care of it, of course, it would likely serve you well... but that loading tray seemed to be a nightmare for so many. One of my friends' NES only worked if you shoved one game in, pushed it down, and shoved another game in on top of it to keep it down.

Of course, something like that could be repaired... it probably consisted of no more than a spring mechanism. Still, I think that was very common.



This is all because Nintendo of america was lazy. In Japan they found out about the problem with the 72-pin harness about 6 months after it was released and had a massive recall. They told the american branch and they just shrugged it off.

But other then the NES the machines are beasts. I work at an EB and ppl trade in systems all the time. Some guy tried to trade in an SNES that his son took into a sand box with him, the system is FILLED with sand, i tild him we couldnt take it so he told us to keep it. I decided to try it out and sure enough it still works http://www.pso-world.com/psoworld/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

but im getting off topic here.

Nintendo HATES cheating if you will recall back in 1982 they took Galoob to court for something like 2 years to prevent them making Game genie on there system, they won in Japan. Unfortunatley they lost in america.