Unfair item distribution; all lies. [Archive]

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 02:34 AM

Okay this has been bugging me a lot for a long time, even since PSO days and I thought I'd lift it off my chest in to a good discussion. I hope I can atleast get that. No flames please. Not wanted.

Back in Phantasy Star Online, there was a commonly thrown around idea that it was more difficult to obtain rares are other items of any value in parties with hunters. This is presented by the fact that hunters specialize in melee combat, so they are indeed usually near the enemy as it perishes, most of the time granting them immediate dibs on any sort of item that the enemy might drop. I can't say I disagree with the somewhat of an advantage the hunters very obviously do have in this kind of situation but my opinion of the matter is quite contradictory. I've had people join and leave a game because I wouldn't put it on random item distribution. Now, to their credit, it's their choice to either leave or stay. I have no control in how they want to play their game, that's why the item distribution system was even created in the first place. But I want to address a few key points...

As Forces/Rangers, we are usually ranged from the fight, disallowing us any sort of immediate looting from the enemies that are being killed...
Maybe so, but there are ways to compensate. Get close to the enemy when you think he's going to die. Have a melee weapon yourself so you can walk up and give him a few wacks when you know his time is near. That way your chances are that of the hunter beating on it. Boxes are exempt from this, and boxes can contain items too you know. Any non-rare item that drops from an enemy in this game most likely can be found in a box just as well, and there are countless containers/haystacks/whatever all over this game. Use AOE spells - be in the middle of the action yourself if there are enemies abound that drop something of any kind of value to you. Rangers are said to almost be more efficient at swinging a melee weapon sometimes than a hunter, due to their ATA. Make use of that! Get in there and finish of the enemy if it drops something you are searching for.

I believe that these sorts of excuses are being used as a crutch. The item distrubtion systems that were implicated in this game eliminate that, but it's making all parties random distribution.

Random item distribution is most efficient because it's 100% luck who gets what, class imbalances hold no bar on the items that I can grab in my runs!
How can this not seem like it's taking a small element away? For some reason if I'm killing a monster alone in a corner, and I deplete my weapon's entire PP to kill it, it drops a rare and it gets jetted over to the hunter about 6-7 levels lower getting knocked down every 5 seconds by a Golmoro, I get ticked off. It doesn't discriminate by performance, which is the first flaw, and a huge one at that. Atleast with finders keepers, there is slight competition at some points in who can more quickly amp themselves to pick up the item or run to it. It adds a fundamental trait to obtaining items that to me was so key in making PSO what it was(the legit side of it). Secondly, although unlikely but possible, the same person can recieve an abundance of items over 1 run through this "luck".

My last point to get across is that Forces/Rangers shouldn't have much more room to complain based on the fact that their classes were not handed to them. They willingly chose the class, and should know the advantages and disadvantages of being that class, whether it be game fundamentals or an item picking up deficiency. In any case, I believe that the opportunity to obtain items is in every way just as simple as being a hunter, it just depends how you play. You can be a total looter and run around healing while letting the hunters tank the monsters while you nab all the items when they die. Don't get me wrong, I've played the other classes so I've had the experience to support what I say. So the next time you join a game and it happens to be finders keepers, instead of bitching at the leader to change it, do us all a favor and go make your own game.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-02 23:34 ]

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-02 23:53 ]

Ether

Nov 3, 2006, 02:37 AM

Altering your combat style to get your share of items is unefficient

Garnet_Moon

Nov 3, 2006, 02:40 AM

Last time I abandoned a target to try to get the killing blow and the rare drop off one of those rhinos in Relics, I cried. I ran over and it did that backhand move. It went right through the guys in front of him and nailed me(and only me, mind you) throwing me across the room. It died, but didn't drop anything cool. I guess I saw through to my evil greedy heart. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Garnet_Moon on 2006-11-02 23:41 ]

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 02:41 AM

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-02 23:42 ]

Altering your combat style to get your share of items is unefficient

And putting it on random ensures that everyone gets their "share"? I don't see much sense in that. I never said anyone had to alter their combat style either, it was just suggestions to those who really, honestly feel that they are disadvantaged by being their class. Putting it on turns doesn't do much justice to that cause either.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-02 23:43 ]

Apathy

Nov 3, 2006, 02:41 AM

Im sorry .. I cannot understand your logic in this.. please forgive me.

ChaosSentinel

Nov 3, 2006, 02:42 AM

I agree, actually. Though I always put item distribution ordered, rares random whenever I create a group (And I'm a hunter, I just find it more fair), I do agree that nobody should be allowed to complain about a game they choose to join. I don't mind PLAYING in give to finder groups at all... I just prefer the other way when possible. But, if it's your group, you should be able to do whatever the hell you want. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Mazoku

Nov 3, 2006, 02:43 AM

My main gripe with finders keepers is that there's always one guy who goes for the boxes before attacking the monsters.

Nani-chan

Nov 3, 2006, 02:43 AM

I guess the only other way to get the items you want is to either solo or play with trusted friends who give you the items you need.

At least there are alternatives.

Flunky

Nov 3, 2006, 02:44 AM

Ideally, each member of a party is contributing equally to a mission and thus their item earnings should be even (or at least even over time as random theoretically does). People in the party that are just 'wasting space', to put it rather undiplomatically, should perhaps be removed from the party. Also keep in mind that the fact that the monster you kill alone in the corner is just as likely to have a rare as the one everybody's pounding on... the fact that the monster you killed happened to drop a rare is random, as will be its distribution.

As for the part about joining a party then complaining about the loot rules, that seems silly. I don't join 'give finder' missions, hunter though I may be- it's the leader's right to pick what they want, and it's my right to decide I don't want to work with a 'give finder' party.

(Warning: biased opinion follows) I like it when the party can actually focus on the combat until things are resolved instead of always keeping one eye open to snatch up the precious loots. Thus I don't do 'give finder'. In the parties I join everyone seems to be working hard, and thus all deserve a chance at loot, rare or not. If I'm in a party where incompetence is rampant, I'll work with a different group.

Oh- I also don't bother with 'give finder' after hearing stories from the parties I've been in about mexican standoffs over boxes. Entire parties gathered around a box waiting for somebody else to break it open, all eager to yoink whatever pops out. Supposedly somebody had one such standoff for over a minute before. Now that's what I call teamwork!

[ This Message was edited by: Flunky on 2006-11-02 23:48 ]

Dj_SkyEpic

Nov 3, 2006, 02:45 AM

Look. All you got to do is set up a party. Have a 6 man team then lock up that room with the rare distribution set on either ORDER or RANDOM while normal items on order.

If you want to have a FAIR share, set it on ORDER so that you guys can all at least get 1 at a time.

Start grinding places and get to know one anothe, thats another good idea.

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 02:45 AM

On 2006-11-02 23:41, Apathy wrote:
Im sorry .. I cannot understand your logic in this.. please forgive me.

Then please try to keep this topic clean of "I don't get it" posts. They are just a tad meaningless. No offense meant, I just want a good solid reason what's more fair about random/turns?

Grimery

Nov 3, 2006, 02:45 AM

If you weren't a hunter you would not have posted this.

Stryfe1

Nov 3, 2006, 02:46 AM

Sorry, but I am a Hunter and very effecient at getting drops, yet I do believe in the Random Order parties. Before you flame, let me explain why...

If you too busy chasing boxes and worrying about when an enemy is going to die so you can get close to it (Forces - Rangers) your not thinking about...

Your Health,

Healing others,

and Fighting.

Hence putting the flow of a party in danger and screwing up a chance at an S-rank, $$$ and job points.

If you were a PSO vet you can see that people acted a lot like chickies scrambling for feed.

Garnet_Moon

Nov 3, 2006, 02:49 AM

Just set everything to random because there isn't a single rare worth fighting over right now. You can then decide how to set the distribution when we start seeing Seal J-Swords drop randomly.

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 02:49 AM

On 2006-11-02 23:45, Grimery wrote:
If you weren't a hunter you would not have posted this.

Negatory. Although my main on PSO and on PSU are and were indeed hunters, after he Max was maxed out in level my main character became a force. I played the game to a good level 160+ all online, in parties, and saw no issues despite the rubbish I felt was being said. I also am equally leveling a ranger and force character in PSU and really have no immediate complaints on the matter yet.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-02 23:50 ]

Apathy

Nov 3, 2006, 02:49 AM

Flunky wrote:

(Warning: biased opinion follows) I like it when the party can actually focus on the combat until things are resolved instead of always keeping one eye open to snatch up the precious loots. Thus I don't do 'give finder'. In the parties I join everyone seems to be working hard, and thus all deserve a chance at loot, rare or not. If I'm in a party where incompetence is rampant, I'll work with a different group.

This I agree with, a team effort, and equal chance to get a piece of pie. I dont like overtly greedy people and sore losers. Im not going to penalize a Force who is healing over a hunter who is swinging thier sword. It takes a team to survive, and a team to get S rank. I thank the powers that be we have these options. I find no fault in them. If you want to play in a Dog-eat-dog party... It is as simple as making one yourself.

daylight129:

Then please try to keep this topic clean of "I don't get it" posts. They are just a tad meaningless. No offense meant, I just want a good solid reason what's more fair about random/turns?

I hope that was more productive... again please forgive me.

[ This Message was edited by: Apathy on 2006-11-02 23:54 ]

Eli_Leviathan

Nov 3, 2006, 02:49 AM

Its very unefficient, but i do understand that when you kill something and someone else takes the item it gets frustrating....but i still share with stuff like boxes....to bad more ppl cant just learn to share.

I play a force btw and it is hard to get normal items...much harder to get rares...its pretty much a fact that random is fair...should be used more IMO

Killuminati

Nov 3, 2006, 02:50 AM

On 2006-11-02 23:34, daylight129 wrote:
Okay this has been bugging me a lot for a long time, even since PSO days and I thought I'd lift it off my chest in to a good discussion. I hope I can atleast get that. No flames please. Not wanted.

Back in Phantasy Star Online, there was a commonly thrown around idea that it was more difficult to obtain rares are other items of any value in parties with hunters. This is presented by the fact that hunters specialize in melee combat, so they are indeed usually near the enemy as it perishes, most of the time granting them immediate dibs on any sort of item that the enemy might drop. I can't say I disagree with the somewhat of an advantage the hunters very obviously do have in this kind of situation but my opinion of the matter is quite contradictory. I've had people join and leave a game because I wouldn't put it on random item distribution. Now, to their credit, it's their choice to either leave or stay. I have no control in how they want to play their game, that's why the item distribution system was even created in the first place. But I want to address a few key points...

As Forces/Rangers, we are usually ranged from the fight, disallowing us any sort of immediate looting from the enemies that are being killed...
Maybe so, but there are ways to compensate. Get close to the enemy when you think he's going to die. Have a melee weapon yourself so you can walk up and give him a few wacks when you know his time is near. That way your chances are that of the hunter beating on it. Boxes are exempt from this, and boxes can contain items too you know. Any non-rare item that drops from an enemy in this game most likely can be found in a box just as well, and there are countless containers/haystacks/whatever all over this game. Use AOE spells - be in the middle of the action yourself if there are enemies abound that drop something of any kind of value to you. Rangers are said to almost be more efficient at swinging a melee weapon sometimes than a hunter, due to their ATA. Make use of that! Get in there and finish of the enemy if it drops something you are searching for.

I believe that these sorts of excuses are being used as a crutch. The item distrubtion systems that were implicated in this game eliminate that, but it's making all parties random distribution.

Random item distribution is most efficient because it's 100% luck who gets what, class imbalances hold no bar on the items that I can grab in my runs!
How can this not seem like it's taking a small element away? For some reason if I'm killing a monster alone in a corner, and I deplete my weapon's entire PP to kill it, it drops a rare and it gets jetted over to the hunter about 6-7 levels lower getting knocked down every 5 seconds by a Golmoro, I get ticked off. It doesn't discriminate by performance, which is the first flaw, and a huge one at that. Atleast with finders keepers, there is slight competition at some points in who can more quickly amp themselves to pick up the item or run to it. It adds a fundamental trait to obtaining items that to me was so key in making PSO what it was(the legit side of it). Secondly, although unlikely but possible, the same person can recieve an abundance of items over 1 run through this "luck".

My last point to get across is that Forces/Rangers shouldn't have much more room to complain based on the fact that their classes were not handed to them. They willingly chose the class, and should know the advantages and disadvantages of being that class, whether it be game fundamentals or an item picking up deficiency. In any case, I believe that the opportunity to obtain items is in every way just as simple as being a hunter, it just depends how you play. You can be a total looter and run around healing while letting the hunters tank the monsters while you nab all the items when they die. Don't get me wrong, I've played the other classes so I've had the experience to support what I say. So the next time you join a game and it happens to be finders keepers, instead of bitching at the leader to change it, do us all a favor and go make your own game.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-02 23:34 ]

I agree with everything you said I have actually stood back as a hunter and watch people kill then go nab items. Now I say to myself if I can do it as a hunter why can't the foes or rangers do it. IMO they actually have a better chance of getting any item because all they have to do is hit all the mobs once which can be easily done when they first appear and just wait for the hunters to kill the mobs then run in and grab the items.

It really annoys me I was in this party with this fo and she was like "guys I am going to leave because I can't get any items". I'm thinking to myself well whos fought is that? The party leader then said he would change the drop system. i don't like playing with forces and would rather not play with them

Killuminati

Nov 3, 2006, 02:51 AM

On 2006-11-02 23:49, Garnet_Moon wrote:
Just set everything to random because there isn't a single rare worth fighting over right now. You can then decide how to set the distribution when we start seeing Seal J-Swords drop randomly.

Which will happen once every blue moon. I have never heard of anyone finding one on PSO and played it for a whole year.

Dj_SkyEpic

Nov 3, 2006, 02:54 AM

It really annoys me I was in this party with this fo and she was like "guys I am going to leave because I can't get any items". I'm thinking to myself well whos fought is that? The party leader then said he would change the drop system. i don't like playing with forces and would rather not play with them

That's too close for comfort. I play a force myself. I join any type of games wether it be finders or modded. But the actions of one type of person does not justify the rest. I garantee you will need a force in your PSU life time.

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 02:55 AM

Something I've noticed is that it doesn't really matter what item distribution it is on...people scramble to select anything basically on the ground. I doubt highly that the chicken scrambling for feed only happens in finders keepers. It just happens naturally, instinctively if you will. Just watch in your random and turned games...it's the same.

Flunky

Nov 3, 2006, 02:59 AM

Yeah, I suppose I've noticed a bit of the chicken scramble of random and ordered, too... but much, much less than I've seen in my brief experiences with 'give finder'.

The only real problem I've encountered with random/ordered is a laziness of picking up items- sometimes if there are some boxes in a nook or a corpse in the corner drops an item, nobody really want to go over and pick it up since it'll get randomly distributed anyways. Thankfully I've noticed less of this over time since release.

ChaosSentinel

Nov 3, 2006, 02:59 AM

On 2006-11-02 23:55, daylight129 wrote:
Something I've noticed is that it doesn't really matter what item distribution it is on...people scramble to select anything basically on the ground. I doubt highly that the chicken scrambling for feed only happens in finders keepers. It just happens naturally, instinctively if you will. Just watch in your random and turned games...it's the same.

Ah, but therein lies the difference... No matter how fast they scramble, or how much more of an item whore one person is over another, they get just the same as everyone else... so it doesn't really matter, does it?

Apathy

Nov 3, 2006, 03:00 AM

On 2006-11-02 23:59, ChaosSentinel wrote:

On 2006-11-02 23:55, daylight129 wrote:
Something I've noticed is that it doesn't really matter what item distribution it is on...people scramble to select anything basically on the ground. I doubt highly that the chicken scrambling for feed only happens in finders keepers. It just happens naturally, instinctively if you will. Just watch in your random and turned games...it's the same.

Ah, but therein lies the difference... No matter how fast they scramble, or how much more of an item whore one person is over another, they get just the same as everyone else... so it doesn't really matter, does it?

Random love for you dear <33... Very well put.

PandaMasterX4

Nov 3, 2006, 03:01 AM

Who the hell deletes pp on one enemy away from the rest of the party anyway. Random is fair.

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 03:01 AM

Stryfe1

Nov 3, 2006, 03:03 AM

On 2006-11-02 23:55, daylight129 wrote:
Something I've noticed is that it doesn't really matter what item distribution it is on...people scramble to select anything basically on the ground. I doubt highly that the chicken scrambling for feed only happens in finders keepers. It just happens naturally, instinctively if you will. Just watch in your random and turned games...it's the same.

Not Really, I notice the difference in my own gameplay and in everyone elses once they are aware it's random, everyone focuses more on their role, some even leave the drops.

Also after Dragon you can see most wait for one to go for the boxes.

I for one like it, makes my job easier and I don't have to put miles on my sneakers.

Killuminati

Nov 3, 2006, 03:04 AM

On 2006-11-02 23:54, Dj_SkyEpic wrote:

It really annoys me I was in this party with this fo and she was like "guys I am going to leave because I can't get any items". I'm thinking to myself well whos fought is that? The party leader then said he would change the drop system. i don't like playing with forces and would rather not play with them

That's too close for comfort. I play a force myself. I join any type of games wether it be finders or modded. But the actions of one type of person does not justify the rest. I garantee you will need a force in your PSU life time.

I SERIOUSLY doubt it. LOL

Stryfe1

Nov 3, 2006, 03:15 AM

On 2006-11-03 00:04, Killuminati wrote:

On 2006-11-02 23:54, Dj_SkyEpic wrote:

It really annoys me I was in this party with this fo and she was like "guys I am going to leave because I can't get any items". I'm thinking to myself well whos fought is that? The party leader then said he would change the drop system. i don't like playing with forces and would rather not play with them

That's too close for comfort. I play a force myself. I join any type of games wether it be finders or modded. But the actions of one type of person does not justify the rest. I garantee you will need a force in your PSU life time.

I SERIOUSLY doubt it. LOL

Hmm, my guess is he will change his mind if Shifta and Deband, not to mention Jellen and Zalure come out, either that or when his mates run out.

Darkchampion3

Nov 3, 2006, 03:17 AM

I dont see why it's so hard to play with items on ordered or random. All order does is distribute items equally, and random leaves it to chance. That means everyone gets a fair share of the loot without having to do mad dashes for items and boxes. The game changes from "ZOMG NINJA TEH RED BOXIS" to a team sport, where your main goal is to kill all the enemies, THEN loot the treasure. Do you honestly think that stressing over boxes is a fun part of the game?

But whatever, to each his own, although you wont find me in any of the games with "give hunter" loot option enabled.

Although I do find it funny that it is suggested for the paper forces to get closer to the enemies and melee so they can get drops. LOL. On A rank, the stronger melee enemies can drop a force in a couple shots. Hell, even the upgraded clawed guys on A dragon runs crit for 300. My FO has just over 600 hp.

[ This Message was edited by: Darkchampion3 on 2006-11-03 00:19 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Darkchampion3 on 2006-11-03 00:19 ]

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 03:19 AM

On 2006-11-03 00:17, Darkchampion3 wrote:
I dont see why it's so hard to play with items on ordered or random. All order does is distribute items equally, and random leaves it to chance. That means everyone gets a fair share of the loot without having to do mad dashes for items and boxes. The game changes from "ZOMG NINJA TEH RED BOXIS" to a team sport, where your main goal is to kill all the enemies, THEN loot the treasure.

But whatever, to each his own, although you wont find me in any of the games with "give hunter" loot option enabled.

Well I have great news, that's not one of the selectable options.

AquaFlare7

Nov 3, 2006, 03:20 AM

Daylight, we talked about this over vent.....hard to believe your still all worked up about it >.>

Darkchampion3

Nov 3, 2006, 03:22 AM

It's called sarcasm. "Give Hunter" ie "Give Finder"

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 03:23 AM

On 2006-11-03 00:22, Darkchampion3 wrote:
It's called sarcasm. "Give Hunter" ie "Give Finder"

Ha?

Apathy

Nov 3, 2006, 03:23 AM

I just think he is bent out of shape. "My kill, my find" .. to him it is a valid argument, as well as with many others. For me, this is just poor sportsmanship.. and I will not adhere to the concept.

Kindness begets kindness
evil begets evil
and selfishness promotes yet more selfishness

[ This Message was edited by: Apathy on 2006-11-03 00:25 ]

Darkchampion3

Nov 3, 2006, 03:25 AM

So i guess with that logic, healers get no loot since we dont do as much damage.

Obviously the only role that awards loot is the role of the damage dealer since all others are unimportant

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 03:25 AM

On 2006-11-03 00:23, Apathy wrote:
I just think he is bent out of shape. "My kill, my find" .. to him it is a valid argument, as well as with many others. For me, this is just poor sportsmanship.. and I will not adhere to the concept.

You are missing some very important items to this.

How is random or turns, any more fair than give finder? I can name flaws to all the systems. What makes finder any worse than the other 2?

And did you just say FO's don't do damage? Go play some PSU.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-03 00:26 ]

Apathy

Nov 3, 2006, 03:28 AM

On 2006-11-03 00:25, daylight129 wrote:

On 2006-11-03 00:23, Apathy wrote:
I just think he is bent out of shape. "My kill, my find" .. to him it is a valid argument, as well as with many others. For me, this is just poor sportsmanship.. and I will not adhere to the concept.

You are missing some very important items to this.

How is random or turns, any more fair than give finder? I can name flaws to all the systems. What makes finder any worse than the other 2?

And did you just say FO's don't do damage? Go play some PSU.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-03 00:26 ]

Okay then the argument to me has just died ... All are flawed, thus no point in me arguing anymore. There is no logic anymore, just emotion, hurt feelings, and a whole lot of useless banter.

Time for bed.

[ This Message was edited by: Apathy on 2006-11-03 00:28 ]

RoninJoku

Nov 3, 2006, 03:29 AM

Even with close friends I will always play order if I have the choice. With random at a close second. Maybe if this WERE PSO, where most items don't really have much value, and rares drop pretty rarely-and even less often worth while rares... But it's not PSO. Items have way too much value thus far in comparisson.

On PSO, there was no need to scurry around grabbing all the meseta and non-existant synthesis items. Basic weapons/armor were primarilly for selling anyway. And meseta in general didn't have much use unless you were addicted to charge weapons...

PSU is a different story! Even if you take rares out of the equation. Almost all items have a practical use. If not for personal use, then they are highly desireable to sell or feed to a PM. And with player shops, these "basic" drops become that much more profitable. And since everyone I know is still having meseta problems left and right, this is a real issue. I myself just blew over 20000 meseta on a Cane along with the grinders that broke it. The point is: Meseta is not easy to come by. Especially if you are doing pick-up groups where you join late and can't get full rank PLUS the looting is set to give finder and you are a force/ranger, or even just a generous person when it comes to item drops.

Aside from the meseta issue. My problem with "Give finder" also lie in the reasons stated about people focussing too much on getting their share rather than the actual mission.

Ryogen

Nov 3, 2006, 03:29 AM

I don't deal with Give Finder mode. Only Random or Order for rares and order for normal items. I'm a Ranger and I know there are a lot of item hogs out there, and I think that being fair and equal is always good for the party. I also don't like when people whine, becuase someone is getting all the good drops.

Miyoko

Nov 3, 2006, 03:34 AM

On 2006-11-02 23:37, Ether wrote:
Altering your combat style to get your share of items is unefficient

QFT. Playing on "finders keepers" is just dumb. I'm sure people in this thread have given enough reasons as to why that I don't need to repeat any.

By the way, Apathy... Nice sig picture! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Miyoko on 2006-11-03 00:36 ]

SonicTMP

Nov 3, 2006, 03:40 AM

Basically your trying to put up excuses that you think your method is better than what is generally accepted by the population.

With the massive content cap there is very little, if anything, exclusive that only a few people will have access to first. So while you argue about who gets that 7star rare, it's not even usable for another 2 months and maybe then some depending on what is unlocked for us.

You argue that that little guy 6-7 levels lower is getting knocked around and doesn't deserve an item. Why do let them stay if you feel that way and how do you expect them to ever get stronger if they don't get a fair share of the loot?

It becomes a matter of the overall view on things. If you leave it on give finder then people are more likely to act like a vulture. That little 6-7 level below you might just tag stuff and stay by you to grab the rare right as it drops. Granted is he's also not doing anything in a random/order setup and gets the rare its not cool either. But at the mentality in those games is more focused on fighting rather than loot this now.

Bottom line? Use the method you like best when you are the leader. If others don't like it they will either seek out another party or you can boot them. Likewise if you don't like how a party is setup, find a new one or make one yourself. It's that simple.

ChaosSentinel

Nov 3, 2006, 03:40 AM

On 2006-11-03 00:28, Apathy wrote:

Okay then the argument to me has just died ... All are flawed, thus no point in me arguing anymore. There is no logic anymore, just emotion, hurt feelings, and a whole lot of useless banter.

Agreed. It's pretty obvious that all this topic's going to do is run in circles...

One question, though. The overwhelming vote here seems to be for the ordered/random setup... so how come I always have a hard time finding parties that use it? I usually have to create my own... sad day. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

physic

Nov 3, 2006, 03:43 AM

this convo amazes me, there is no way a ra, or a fo should be running up on dying enemies, pick up is a bad way to play, if thats the case forces and ras shouldnt play with you, because it makes there job muc worse and changes the way thr game is played. Is random more fair? depends on the random generator, is ordered fair? maybe not, but finder is the least fair.

And for the dude who will never need a force? you may not have gotten far, healing is big later, and saves you money. dimates and trimates cost money. Beast also cant cure when in beast mode, then fos will get various buffs later. also some levels the enemies will ave high physical defence.

As for the nothing big will drop now, i dont know about that, i have seen 7 star boards for A class weapon, 6 star clothes, etc.

Dj_SkyEpic

Nov 3, 2006, 03:48 AM

On 2006-11-03 00:40, ChaosSentinel wrote:

On 2006-11-03 00:28, Apathy wrote:

Okay then the argument to me has just died ... All are flawed, thus no point in me arguing anymore. There is no logic anymore, just emotion, hurt feelings, and a whole lot of useless banter.

Agreed. It's pretty obvious that all this topic's going to do is run in circles...

One question, though. The overwhelming vote here seems to be for the ordered/random setup... so how come I always have a hard time finding parties that use it? I usually have to create my own... sad day. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

I use those and especially people who grinds. Grinding players know what they are dealing with and already know the party's item distribution before they enter.

I myself grind. lvl 48 now. You will see plenty of people in places like PARUM relics A and dragon A doing so.

SonicTMP

Nov 3, 2006, 03:50 AM

On 2006-11-03 00:43, physic wrote
As for the nothing big will drop now, i dont know about that, i have seen 7 star boards for A class weapon, 6 star clothes, etc.

But are they usable? are the craftable? Do all the mats drop to make them? Can you even equip them at the moment? Not likely due to the general content cap. And besides I meant the more more super rare stuff. Even those items mentioned will be unlocked for all to use.

Now if a lavis cannon dropped? Two words. Not pretty.

SpishackCola

Nov 3, 2006, 03:58 AM

lol, crying over (random) item distribution.

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 04:08 AM

On 2006-11-03 00:58, SpishackCola wrote:
lol, crying over (random) item distribution.

Yeah, if you don't want to hear it, refrain from posting anything even remotely disrespectful. I'd appreciate it.

In more meaningful matters...

The equal "share" that some of you speak of...can someone explain how randomizing itemization does this goal any sort of good? There is a very, very unreliable equivelant exchange in a random system.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-03 01:11 ]

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-03 01:22 ]

Marks

Nov 3, 2006, 05:05 AM

Hunter's are always killing stuff up close but they are also always swinging, it's easy for a hunter to kill something mid combo and have a force or ranger run up and take the loot while the hunter's combo is still going. Plus forces and rangers are generally pretty close to enemies anyway, how many rangers have you seen trying to snipe from across the field?

With that said if you are an advocate of "give finder" your opinion sucks and is wrong. And I hate you.

Stryfe1

Nov 3, 2006, 05:11 AM

What difference does it make?!

You killed the enemy, you were closest to the drop and the fastest to get to it, therefore it should be yours.

It's a team effort, would you have killed the mob if others weren't helping you?

Would you have killed it if a force wasn't healing you?

Would you have gotten that far if 5 others weren't in the group?

Random Order.

No fusses, drama free and regulates the greedster.

Mystil

Nov 3, 2006, 05:16 AM

Item distribution is flawed. I don't see a difference between random, or ordered. :/ As for me, I pick up whatever drops infront me.

RainBlue

Nov 3, 2006, 05:22 AM

I find that it is appauling you would want it on first come first serve. I'm force and i'm healing you. Tell the force people to stop healing you and i'll go in and melee for my fair share.

Honestly i always make my own groups. Anybody not of level gets the boot and any loot hungry people the same. Now, i have rare set to random, and regular set to in order. If somebody doesn't lik it tough

Btw, how often have you seen 6 rares drop in one run? In order doesn't pick off from the LAST perosn to recieve. if anybody leaves or joins it resets to the iniitial person. I found it to be like that. Maybe a big buggy i don't know.

Anyways i found it way more productive to not go running in combat to go after a drop while worrying about people's health.

I'm sorry but for the OP, it's people like this that make me want to black list them for being loot "you know what"

RainBlue

Nov 3, 2006, 05:31 AM

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 05:55 AM

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-03 13:40 ]

Honestly, is that split second that people are "whoring" for loot really negatively affectin the performance of the group in such a detrimental way you have to cry loot distro over it?

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-03 13:42 ]

Abeatron

Nov 3, 2006, 06:40 AM

I actually don't know what advocate means... in this context anyway....

Kanore

Nov 3, 2006, 06:48 AM

If you have that mentality then that means just about anyone can become a loot whore. I had an arguement with someone yesterday over 'Give Finder' and 'Random' (I was, of course, on the random side). He and his friends kept saying how loot whoring was good, so I eventually gave up.

Honestly, as a Force, I'm not damned at all to rush up and take items. Thus, I barely benefit whenever Give Finder is an option, especially when mindlessly grinding De Ragan. When I was a Hunter, however, I was fine with it since I was right up on the enemy's space and could rush up and take an item (though I still rarely did Give Finder and still hated Give Finder).

Arias

Nov 3, 2006, 08:03 AM

You should decide with your teammates what you do before bitching.
If 4 of you says: Random and one says Give finder, let him agree to the random terms, OR don't let him/her play wiht you.

Anywho, This is silly but...How do these terms work?
Give finder, how does it exactly work?
Same with random? :S sry

kassy

Nov 3, 2006, 08:05 AM

On 2006-11-03 05:03, Arias wrote:
You should decide with your teammates what you do before bitching.
If 4 of you says: Random and one says Give finder, let him agree to the random terms, OR don't let him/her play wiht you.

Anywho, This is silly but...How do these terms work?
Give finder, how does it exactly work?
Same with random? :S sry

Give to finder: who ever picks up the item gets it.
Random: No matter who picks up the item it is randomly given to someone in the party.

Stricker

Nov 3, 2006, 08:12 AM

I still think that "Set Order" is better. No matter what type i am I concentrate on killing and playing. Not rushing for the items.

Shinomaru

Nov 3, 2006, 08:26 AM

Rares Random Non- Rare Set in order is your average looting system for any mmorpg, even if its not built into the game when a rare drops in an mmo we /roll for it. WoW FFXI RF online etc etc even JP and KR games are like that

Shinou

Nov 3, 2006, 08:27 AM

How about we just stop talking about this. I mean its already in what.. two other topics? Just enjoy the game if you see a game that has finder/finder and dont like it. Then dont join it...simple as that.

Shango

Nov 3, 2006, 08:46 AM

Here's a new twist.. the default choice shold be order! The reason that everyone's games are finder is probably because most people don't care/think to change it.

KH_Sora_PSU

Nov 3, 2006, 08:48 AM

I dont have much of a problem getting the items that i want cause i have a constant static party (The Organization) but i can see where you are comming from. In Pso if a monster dropped a weapon or an item, and u or whoever happens to pick it up thats that, be it the "ranged class" or the "force class". I don't get why people trip over the fact that people set thier parties to "Give Finder" Insted of "Random" Or "Order", i dont know about you but i have had enough of those Settings from FFXI. This game has so much freedom, and as many stated before if u want an item FARM IT YOURSELF. Make your own team & try to find it, lock the game if you have to.. I like the give finder settings it gives me that classic Pso Feel.

[ This Message was edited by: KH_Sora_PSU on 2006-11-03 05:49 ]

AlMcFly

Nov 3, 2006, 08:59 AM

All my games are "Set In Order" no matter what. It's the fairest and most even of the choices. With "Give Finder", you see people running away from mobs to go break some boxes which is retarded (especially in a high rank mission). With "Random", the same guy could quite possibly get 3 or 4 things in a row while others get nothing. At least with "Set In Order" there is a completely equal distribution.

kassy

Nov 3, 2006, 09:00 AM

This is ridiculous, you can't just can't win competing against the hunter mentality >.>

You join a game, eventually tired of not getting items you ask the leader hunter to change to random and they say things like "if I can get the loot what's stopping you?", "this way is fair, who ever was fast enough to pick it up deserves it"

So you say "ok, I'll play by your rules" and with your force, you change your playstyle, fighting right up against the enemies, nabbing the loot effectively, then they bitch and kick you because you're beating them at their own game.

You just can't win with these types of players.

Parn

Nov 3, 2006, 09:05 AM

On 2006-11-03 02:16, Silhouette wrote:
Item distribution is flawed. I don't see a difference between random, or ordered. :/ As for me, I pick up whatever drops infront me.
The difference is that random is completely random in the sense that with two people, if 40 items and sets of meseta dropped, one person could get 30 items while the other gets only 10. Or maybe only 5 items while the other gets 35. Set Order would make it so both would get 20.

That's the difference.

Alpha-Hunter

Nov 3, 2006, 09:30 AM

I do think that people complaining about missions that they enter are stupid. but random and set order are the only ways to combat people leaving the fight to greed the boxes. also, random and set order allow a better change for everyone to come out of a session with a fair amount of loot; more so than give finder. though none are 100% fair and there is always someone that has more luck and someone on the short end set and random are better because it is much more "fair" than give finder.

Yoiyami

Nov 3, 2006, 09:44 AM

As far as drops go, I always make my own room and use the "Set in order" option. You won't always get what you want, but at least you'll get a fair share of our findings. That's better than one person monopolizing the items and rares, right?

Merumeru

Nov 3, 2006, 09:50 AM

XD regardless of class, whether you deplete your PP on some enemy or not, the whole basics of having parties are so that everyone does their share in the party to receive their share XD i dont think a restaforce or freezeranger or deathhunter deserves more than one another if they're all working together~

Shade-

Nov 3, 2006, 09:58 AM

It's been my observation that parties that are "set order" or "set random" make runs faster, have less deaths, and, most importantly, are funner than the "give finder" parties. "give finder" parties you do find people doing stupid things like running for boxes when the rest of the party is getting mauled, and waiting at the locked door for everyone else to clear the room, so they can get dibs on the next boxes. One person doing this ruins the party for everyone. First and foremost, obviously, they get a ton of items that are INTENDED to be split (at least slightly more evenly) about the party. Next, that's 1/6 people not fighting the enemies, this just slows things down.

The point has been made already, but I like it. In "give finder"s you promote a competitive atmosphere between the party members, something you dont want in a type of game that givs you a reward in the end based in the preformance if the entier party, NOT just you. Set random/order promotes a cooperative atmosphere where item priopity comes last to everyones survival, and clearing the rooms efficently, and sometimes even having a carefree chat along the way. I've never carried on a conversation in a give finder party. May this be because I avoid them like the plague? possibly, but my point stands.

You can set your parties to "give finder", but dont get all pissy if I join, enter a room and tag enemies, and then loot boxes and spam enter right at the feet of that enemy you killed all by yourself in the corner. Oh, and btw, with set order/random, every time that happens to you and the item sorts to the hunter across the room, it happens to the hunter across the room, and it sorts to you.

Random distributiuon is a logical choice for a game like PSU.

klunka

Nov 3, 2006, 10:02 AM

I run a simple solution when a Hunter demands all items to finder in a party.

First, he cannot the entire time request a heal from the force. The force cannot survive in the midst of battle trying to pick things up. If hunters cannot change to a form of distribution that favors no one, Forces should not have to waste PP healing you.

Second, the hunter should not expect the Ranger to freeze/paralyze/etc. those 2-3 monsters coming up behind the hunter as they are performing endless combos to that single monster in the corner. Rangers are not as effective if they cannot see the entire field of battle to offer support where needed.

After a few rounds of this, the hunter will start to appreciate others a little more.

P.S. Before anyone bitches at me. I have run into plenty of hunters who were more than fair. This is in the rare case where the hunter INSISTS finder is the completely fairest way to distribute items.

Jiga

Nov 3, 2006, 10:31 AM

On 2006-11-02 23:34, daylight129 wrote:

So the next time you join a game and it happens to be finders keepers, instead of bitching at the leader to change it, do us all a favor and go make your own game.

I still don't see what the hell this has to do with fairness of the RANDOM/ORDER system. If you go off on your own to kill an enemy, that's your choice to not move and work as a team. So don't bitch about me getting the drop if you aren't watching my back. I'm sure as hell watching everyone else's.

Sev

Nov 3, 2006, 10:38 AM

Alot of you are missing a key point here...

I don't believe that he's saying that all parties should run Give Finder, and you can correct me if I'm wrong... He's saying "Don't join my party, and then complain about the loot rules." What he's saying there, is completely valid... If you don't like the rules, don't join the game. It's just that simple.

On the other side... There's no reason for anyone to change their playstyle just to get drops. It's pointless and not needed, and it's also not efficient like Ether said. If everyone played like that, missions would take alot longer, there'd be alot more deaths, etc etc... Because you know that some people are simply going to take it to the extreme side of things. I do fine for myself in Give Finder parties, both on my Hunter and on my Ranger. That doesn't mean that everyone does though, and I don't think that everyone should play like me just to get a share. I agree that no one should join your team and complain about the options.

The leader chooses the loot options. Now if he were to join another game, I'd assume he wouldn't complain about their options either. If he didn't like them, he'd probably just leave... Like most people should. If you hate Give Finder games, then don't play them. And don't complain to those that like them, that their unfair... Obviously... They don't care. And obviously, you don't care if they think that Random or Order is "flawed" now do you?

If you do care, bless your heart. Because you my friend, are a way better person then I.

Alpha-Hunter

Nov 3, 2006, 10:44 AM

You are right Sev. the OP did start off with a good point. you can
t join a game then complain about the games preset dynamics. so true. the rest was a biased rant.

Sev

Nov 3, 2006, 11:47 AM

On 2006-11-03 07:44, Alpha-Hunter wrote:
You are right Sev. the OP did start off with a good point. you can
t join a game then complain about the games preset dynamics. so true. the rest was a biased rant.

Yeah, most of the rest is just his opinion. Only someone that's good at looting can really make this kind of statement, I'm very good at it... But I've seen the effects it's had on some parties. I'm not breaking away from the fighting for boxes, but when things hit the group they normally get picked up by me.

Even got kicked out of a Give Finder party while not box whoring and still doing my job. Not even joking, funniest thing that even happened to me in the game. XD

Lorsavasus

Nov 3, 2006, 11:53 AM

Interesting thread, and one I was just discussing last night. I'll try to elaborate in a way that I'm not seeing others doing.

I'm an advocate of Finder or Order, but not Random. Too many rooms where the same person got the majority of the items. Makes me wonder if Luck has anything to do with it.

Anyhow, as someone who has played all three classes rather extensively (no, this isn't me saying "more than YOU", but plenty), I'm seeing an ironic twist where a lot of people are naysaying the Hunter for not seeing the Ranger/Force point of view, when infact they haven't played as a Hunter, themselves.

As is, there is a reason Random or Order are the most popular. Rangers and Forces (making up 2/3 of the vote) -often- are playing passive, long-distanced roles. That is their choice to do so, just as Random or Order are ALSO in their passive favor. Unfortunate though, that a Hunter doesn't have much of a choice in playing an agressive role.

Rangers and Forces have the pure option of playing agressively or passively. Aggressive play will require more talent and judgement though... better spacing, better timing, better planning. What do they offer for such a risk? Rangers (if using weaponry that keeps them mobile) get to be the support class that they were intended to be - stunlock enemies so the Hunters can do their damage. Forces, while closer, will be in better range for support spells and can get to the injured quicker. Otherwise, what happens? Rangers get to play it safe from long range, relying more on tagging than true combat support, and Forces get to be lazier about support than they should. Often a Hunter does -not- have the time its going to take for the Force to run across the room, ontop of casting duration. About the only 'long distance' option a Hunter has is a Pistol... and their already expected to be doing the primary damage. A long distance Hunter is a bad hunter, and the same could be said about a long distance Ranger and Force... but people want to promote diversity in gameplay styles, so I guess balance is irrelevant?

I'm going to take a moment to touch on a basic principle from a recent fighting game, Guilty Gear. Many characters have projectile attacks, of which can can slaughter a slower character. If you can sit back and keep 'shooting', and its working, why try to do anything else? Fortunately that if you play too passively, the game will give you a Negative Penalty and remove your Super Meter. Additionally, each character has his or her own way of dealing with projectiles... so when they do finally get over to punish the projectile whore, the projectile whore isn't going to have any Super Meter for any sort of defense. Not to mention, the real damage (or reward) is going to be found in close combat. This sort of passive 'Turtling' is bad in any game with any sense of a combat system, so there must be counter-measures to ensure that a lame tactic cannot be relied upon.

It seems like PSO/U's combat system is in place to -reward- this sort of active, aggressive, party fighting. Close, cooperative play = item rewards. Though Rangers and Forces have the option of sitting on the side-lines, pegging enemies safely. These two classes have better long-range damage capabilites than a Hunter, and you know what? Enemies with projectiles are the minority, and do not fire anywhere near as fast as what a Ranger and Force has. In a fighting game, where the combat system is of the utmost priority, this sort of mentality would be what is considered "broken gameplay". Sure, close-range is risky for the Ranger and especially the Force, but if a Hunter has to know the timing on their weapons and special attacks, why shouldn't the Ranger and Force as well? Random or Order promotes 'diversity', but an imbalance for the Hunter, especially when Rangers and Forces are getting an alottment of Mono(Di, etc.)mates that they don't need nearly as desperately (if at all).

Idealy (and I stress this word), Finder is the choice of the perfect, tactical party. The broken factor is that it can allow for greedy individuals to hog all the items. Guys, this is what the Remove Player feature is for... Use it. This will also be the only setting that will allow for people to pick and choose what they pick up. Understandably, we ALL want the rares, but I have the choice to say "hey, that Hunter needs that Dimate the enemy dropped", or "I have no need for a dropped Rifle, since I'm a Force".

Order for rares is silly. No one is going to get their fair share of rares in one room, as there aren't enough of them to go around.

As is, ALL settings have their problems. Order Items is preferrable for newbies, so they can get some loot. Its also good if you have a friend who is just too box-hungry and you don't want to boot him since he's your friend. Finder is great for the advanced party, and that way everyone can get their share.

Heh, regarding the "mexican stand-off": yes, it -can- get that bad. But on the flipside, you'll have people who are going to exp-hog, if Random/Order is chosen. They'll leave you to go grab the boxes. Its yet another imbalance. Again, boot them.

Trying to cut this long-winded post short, the point I'm trying to make is to those people who see Finder as a stupid rule. You're seeing the situation from a passive point of view -only-, and simply put, there is no perfect solution to the matter (other than not joining what suits you best, or people learning how to play more aggressively). As is, Random Items and Order Rares are the two settings that have the most wrong with them, and really shouldn't be used due to fairness issues.

Alpha-Hunter

Nov 3, 2006, 12:20 PM

Lorsavasus you accuse people of looking at it only from a passive perspective while you only look at it from an aggressive persective.

you never explained why set order and random have the most wrong, you only explain your opinion that since hunters are in the fray the most they deserve the most loot. and if ranger and forces want more loot they need to alter their play style and risk the party success. the fact is hunter on average can take more damage and can inflict more in tight spaces more effeciently. hunters are made for that stuff. ranger are made to SE mobs and chip away mob health while forces have a really hard time in the trenches due to the awful defense and warm up on their attacks. they really only need to come in to heal the hunters and get back out and spam attacks. I'm a hunter and always will be. I understand the roles of the other classes and respect what they do to contribute to a mission. they deserve opportunity for loot while being as effecient in their job as I do. there has been a few good posts by pro order/random people and IMHO none by pro give finder. it's been all editorial.

and what does GGX have to do with PSO???

JaiBlue

Nov 3, 2006, 12:22 PM

Dammit now I'm forced to choose between my favorite things. Item looting or exp hogging GAH! this game just pisses me off.

It's all just a test of patience and it can kiss my friken @ss.

*snaps disk*

[ This Message was edited by: JaiBlue on 2006-11-03 09:25 ]

entropyboy

Nov 3, 2006, 12:32 PM

i am sorry, was i suppose to stop spamming heal on you because you are getting smacked around (not being able to manually dodge any hits) and looting everything because i am at range?

in the time it takes me to cast a spell, if i was in a give to finder group, all the items are gone. i would have to no cast anything to even have a chance at loot. and frankly that is ridiculous. no one make you change your play style to get loot. a well played force has no time to waste running to pick stuff up. that is why i love the new looting options, it lets other people pick stuff up for you in essence so you can concentrate on your job.

ninjaloot method is stupid, i cant believe anyone still condones this other then people who want to ninjaloot. all i see when i am in these parties is one guy running around looting everything while everyone else tries and fight.

the only fair method is set in order because of the number of items dropped it evens out. random for rares is good, cause you will probably only get 1 of those in a run. and seriously, if you are worried the rare is going to someone 'not worthy' in your eyes, they play solo or with friends. this is always going to happen in pick up groups.

Sorenia

Nov 3, 2006, 12:58 PM

Hey hey guys aren't you forgetting something. Give finder has a huge benefit. All the probably annoying people join give finder games (or create them).

It's like PSU has a filter right at the mission start screen. Litterally like a question pops up "Are you an annoying player?" and amazingly they all push yes. We can then simply ignore those games to our hearts content.

Of course if we are talking about someone who's a friend and he wants give finder the only correct answer is get a new friend.

In summary the OP is correct right? Do you any of you even remotely want to group with him? I doubt it.

JaiBlue

Nov 3, 2006, 01:02 PM

If your entire team dosen't mind items at all. =finder
If you all don't mind sharing.=order
if you or any of your teamates just dont give a @$%#.=random

Simple, and I think this topic was a rant to begin with, this should be moved.

AngelLight

Nov 3, 2006, 01:05 PM

Master Looter Option FTW.....too bad Sega didn't think of this.....

But still, yeah they took a step in the right direction with the 3 different option types. So kudos to them for trying to fix a flaw in the previous game (ST).

ellievyle

Nov 3, 2006, 01:06 PM

Alpha, he explained it in his post. PSU is using a balancing system very similiar to Guilty Gear, but in GG it's more obvious. It makes an excellant example of the negative penalty games take on you for "turtling" or "playing passively".

Whatever playstyle you choose has it's pros and cons. If you want to play passively, (pro) you won't get hit but (con) you won't get alot of items. If you play aggressively, (con) you endanger yourself but (pro)you can pick up items easier.

It is NOT FAIR for anyone to play passively, and get the same amount of loot as the person in the fray and in danger, no matter what damage you do. All characters are built to be played passively and aggressively and passive players are stealing the aggressive player's items by using Random or Order.

Alpha-Hunter

Nov 3, 2006, 01:16 PM

the game dynamics in GG has nothing to do with the PSU. that's the point. they are totally different. you can in no way compare a 1 on 1 fighting game with an online cooperative action RPG. I understand his points on the GGX system, but that logic doesn't applly in PSU. he only wants it to apply because he thinks it supports his biased views.

What's not fair is for aggresive classes like a hunter to get all the loot from classses that were designed and programed to be played passively. your arguement is a little stronger with the specialy classes, but pure ranger and forces (as we have them now) have no real reason to play aggresively. I see this and I don't even play force and never really touch my ranger (lv 5). My hunter is Lv 22!

Silver_Wyrm

Nov 3, 2006, 01:22 PM

it is my job to give support from the background, not sit in its face at pointblank range putting myself in danger (and using the forces heals more) so I can maybe get soem loot. As ether said, changing your playstyle to get loot is inefficient, I prefer random or set order so I can focus solely on contributing to my group and leave the picking up to the hunters whom it just drops on top of.

if your running off fighting things alone in a corner, perhaps you should rejoin your group instead, and even so that one item you may miss is not the same as the every single item I will miss.

I do not see any reason I should be eithin melee range unless Im using a shotgun, theres just no reason for it.

[ This Message was edited by: Silver_Wyrm on 2006-11-03 10:23 ]

GForce09

Nov 3, 2006, 01:23 PM

Rares: Set Random(or Order), Normals: Set in Order; or bust!

In pick-up parties that is. I can't help but give my two cents here...

Just because I've figured out how to aim for the De Ragan Tail box faster than everyone else doesn't mean the drops still don't deserve to be ballanced and the ranged fighters don't deserve a shot at them. I'm inclined to believe that Rangers and Forces shouldn't be gimping themselves by playing "aggresively", most FO seem to run out of PP fast enough as-is in tougher missions. All this coming from a Hunter too, but I guess I just like having that sense of ballance when I play.

Merumeru

Nov 3, 2006, 01:26 PM

XD last time i went to school, i heard that being aggressive is not better than being passive, and vice versa, so one type of playing style should not be rewarded more than the other XD im glad for the looting systems because i never think about picking up items anymore OR if i should leave this certain item for someone else to pick up, because the game does it for me x.x even as a hunter~

Silver_Wyrm

Nov 3, 2006, 01:27 PM

On 2006-11-03 10:06, ellievyle wrote:
Alpha, he explained it in his post. PSU is using a balancing system very similiar to Guilty Gear, but in GG it's more obvious. It makes an excellant example of the negative penalty games take on you for "turtling" or "playing passively".

Whatever playstyle you choose has it's pros and cons. If you want to play passively, (pro) you won't get hit but (con) you won't get alot of items. If you play aggressively, (con) you endanger yourself but (pro)you can pick up items easier.

It is NOT FAIR for anyone to play passively, and get the same amount of loot as the person in the fray and in danger, no matter what damage you do. All characters are built to be played passively and aggressively and passive players are stealing the aggressive player's items by using Random or Order.

its nto about passivce and agressive platsyles, when a hunter runs into mobs and I freeze their asses in front of his face, hes no longer in danger. HUnte rmay be getting hit but guess who coems ot heal him, the force does. Call it what you will, but its not like hunters are soloing these enemeis, not by a long shot, we all contribute, we all deserve the items.

AndrewLD16

Nov 3, 2006, 01:36 PM

On 2006-11-03 10:06, ellievyle wrote:
Alpha, he explained it in his post. PSU is using a balancing system very similiar to Guilty Gear, but in GG it's more obvious. It makes an excellant example of the negative penalty games take on you for "turtling" or "playing passively".

Whatever playstyle you choose has it's pros and cons. If you want to play passively, (pro) you won't get hit but (con) you won't get alot of items. If you play aggressively, (con) you endanger yourself but (pro)you can pick up items easier.

It is NOT FAIR for anyone to play passively, and get the same amount of loot as the person in the fray and in danger, no matter what damage you do. All characters are built to be played passively and aggressively and passive players are stealing the aggressive player's items by using Random or Order
LOL@you, and that's all I have to say because I would probably be banned for what I was going to write http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

ellievyle

Nov 3, 2006, 01:41 PM

They can be compared because GG and PSU punish the player for "turtling". If you "turtle" (blocking all the time) in GG you lose your tension, if you "turtle" (trying to kill an enemy from far away) in PSU you waste all your PP. Same message of "get your ass in there and do something".

And Forces and Rangers have an excellant reason to get in there and be aggressive. They get items. That's the reward. When you take away that reason/reward by using Random and Order, why would any smart person put themselves in that risky situation?

And because I disagree with everyone still fighting the "Force/Ranger vs Hunter" battle.....Each class has their own weak stat to worry about in battle, Forces obviously have little defense, Rangers don't have alot attack power and Hunters have a stunted evasion stat. No one class is made better for aggressive battle, but they have to work together to be able to fight in those conditions.

My argument is that Forces and Rangers WERE meant to be played aggressively, because all game makers want the player to be aggressive (thus the negative penalty in all games for "turtling".) Playing an aggressive character is harder, but the rewards are worth it. If a person can play, they deserve the items cause they worked for it.

Alpha-Hunter

Nov 3, 2006, 01:48 PM

there is no negative penalty. what are you talking about? PP is used in PSU regardless if you are in close or at ranged. you can't force a comparison. it doesn't work. get off it. turtleing is a fighting game term. you don't mention DPS or tanking (meat shield) in GGX do you? please, just make a game with your greed setting and people who don't like it won't join. and if they do join then they have no room to complain.

Reiichi

Nov 3, 2006, 01:49 PM

I play completely different as ranger if the loot is on finder. Instead of using shotgun for status spamming and rifle for range/damage I switch to twin pistols and get up real close to monsters. Being able to shoot and move allows me first crack at loot which hunters are still mid combo on. Unfortunately you will almost never see me use a shotgun or rifle. I try to avoid finder maps, but if I do, I will loot whore and do a good job of it http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

But finders keepers right? Sucks to be a slow spell casting force or having to heal. Sucks having to attack while standing still even though that's the only way to use shotguns or rifles. I still haven't heard any good arguments for finder. It slows things down and makes the parties inefficient (not un). Disputes arise over loot whoring and box camping.

Even when my friends play together we use random instead of finder because we each have a job to do that's more important than looting. Instead of worrying about everyone getting an even share I can pick up the loot as it drops and move on. I can focus on keeping half the room frozen while the hunter goes to work on the other half. The force doesn't have to get up close and personal and can focus on healing and nuking instead of looting.

I think looting should be only limited to rangers period. Firing guns is expensive. We can open crates from a distance and if nothing drops, not bother walking over to there. We also attack while moving and can loot while still attacking instead of having to disengage from a monster. Talk about efficiency! Having a hunter or force focus on looting is just a waste of time!

KirinDave

Nov 3, 2006, 01:55 PM

This seems really simple to me. If you are playing with friends, use give-finder. The honor system is nearly always better if everyone plays the game.

If you are playing with strangers, then in-order normals and random rares are the most fair, because it actively defeats people who would abuse "give-finder".

What's so hard about that?

ellievyle

Nov 3, 2006, 01:57 PM

Silverwyrm -
Getting items is the reward for staying closer to the mob. That's what we're all bitching about here.

Trying using a Duel Pistol or Mechgun to stay mobile when playing aggressively. That might help you not get hit. I hear Duel Pistols are very good with status ailments, so good luck.

Merumeru-
Sorry kid, but this is a game, not school. If you want a leisurely, passive PSU game where you still get items, play offline. Or, you know, start your own room. (hope that didn't come off as sarcastic...it's wasn't meant as such)

And both types are being rewarded. Play passively if you don't want to get hit. But don't expect the game to be handed to you on a silver platter, and that you still deserve (like it's a right) all the items too.

Silver Wyrm #2 -
If you freeze all the enemies, why are you worried about being hit? Besides, if you peg the enemy in between a Hunter's combo or a Force's spell, you'll stop the enemy from attacking. Then everyone benefits, and no one gets hit. You'll only see the timing of the other person's attacks if you're close though. It's kind of a shame that I have to explain how you can play your Ranger to get items. Really, you all should be experimenting to get the most out of the game without using a cheat system like Random and Order.

If a Hunter gets hit, yes, sometimes a very nice lovely Force will cure them (Forces are very nice people). But most of the time, they need to use a dimate. Use a dimate, pick up a dimate (or something you could sell for one). Really, "Give Finder" is fair.

JaiBlue

Nov 3, 2006, 01:57 PM

Shango

Nov 3, 2006, 01:58 PM

I'm gonna agree, haven't read any good reasons for finder yet (coming from a beast hunter) besides as another way to say "focus less on killing efficiency and more on items/loot".

Personally unless I'm specifically farming for a single item, I don't care what I find in a mission until it's over and I'm standing infront of that shopkeeper. I just want to enjoy the run without constantly evaluating whether or not it would be fair for me to pick up this box, or if hunter B is hogging the loot from ranger A.

I could understand always using finder if and only if you play with a regular group of people who have all actually communicated the time and inclination to only pick up the items they need. Outside of this optimal "honest" group setup, I can't see finder being useful at all.

Silver_Wyrm

Nov 3, 2006, 02:04 PM

On 2006-11-03 10:41, ellievyle wrote:
They can be compared because GG and PSU punish the player for "turtling". If you "turtle" (blocking all the time) in GG you lose your tension, if you "turtle" (trying to kill an enemy from far away) in PSU you waste all your PP. Same message of "get your ass in there and do something".

And Forces and Rangers have an excellant reason to get in there and be aggressive. They get items. That's the reward. When you take away that reason/reward by using Random and Order, why would any smart person put themselves in that risky situation?

And because I disagree with everyone still fighting the "Force/Ranger vs Hunter" battle.....Each class has their own weak stat to worry about in battle, Forces obviously have little defense, Rangers don't have alot attack power and Hunters have a stunted evasion stat. No one class is made better for aggressive battle, but they have to work together to be able to fight in those conditions.

My argument is that Forces and Rangers WERE meant to be played aggressively, because all game makers want the player to be aggressive (thus the negative penalty in all games for "turtling".) Playing an aggressive character is harder, but the rewards are worth it. If a person can play, they deserve the items cause they worked for it.

right give us long rnage guns and spells so we can sit in melee and die faster than hunter sin an attempt to get loot. set order/random isnt risky, it simply allows us to focus on our job. When you di ebecause ofcre is too busy trying to loot instead of hjeal you gg. when you get pummeled by three mobs because ranger is too busy looting to shock/freeze them, gg. Give finder does NOTHING for the group as a whole, all your arguemnt point that loot is only reason to pay this game, since its all about being rewarded with loot. I havent seen you mention teamwork or a cohesive group, so my advice is stick to your own kind of people who only go in for the loot. Not all of us play the same way, and I for one, will be paying more attention to the group as a whole rather than the boxes ont he ground. GG still doesnt make a good comparison to psu at all, the two game shave nothing in common.

PS: think neudaiz, all those aoe spamming robots who epxlode on death, you need a force to keep the hunters up from all taht damage, and a ranger to freeze as many as you can so they dont all spam aoes at once snd kill the hunters, if everyone is being "aggressive" then your all about to get your ass kicked by that circuitry in there.

Teamwork > Loot

EDITL typos, sorry I probably missed a few

[ This Message was edited by: Silver_Wyrm on 2006-11-03 11:09 ]

ellievyle

Nov 3, 2006, 02:06 PM

JaiBlue - I think we'd both agree that PSU is a great game when you get items. It's the only way to play really...with people getting items. The game makers set "Give Finder" as default. The game "punishes" you playing passively, by making it harder for you to get items. All three of those things signal to me that this game is supposed to be played aggressively.

But here's the thing I LOVE about PSU. Everyone can choose. PSU leaves it open for your to choose to guard your health, or risk going for an item. If you don't want items...play passively. Just stop expecting the aggressive players (the ones taking all the risks) to just give them to the passive players. It's still not fair to me.

Silver_Wyrm

Nov 3, 2006, 02:07 PM

Silver Wyrm #2 -
If you freeze all the enemies, why are you worried about being hit? Besides, if you peg the enemy in between a Hunter's combo or a Force's spell, you'll stop the enemy from attacking. Then everyone benefits, and no one gets hit. You'll only see the timing of the other person's attacks if you're close though. It's kind of a shame that I have to explain how you can play your Ranger to get items. Really, you all should be experimenting to get the most out of the game without using a cheat system like Random and Order.

If a Hunter gets hit, yes, sometimes a very nice lovely Force will cure them (Forces are very nice people). But most of the time, they need to use a dimate. Use a dimate, pick up a dimate (or something you could sell for one). Really, "Give Finder" is fair.

then find betetr forces, I never have problems with them healing, and as for the freezing, it doesnt last forever, and rather than run up to them and have it brea, I constantly turn targets to keep as many thigns frozen at once to maximize my utility to a group. You may have to buy some dimates, but I have to refill 4 guns with over 1000 PP, and fyi dual pistols and machine guns blow throguh their given PP very fast

Gavin_King

Nov 3, 2006, 02:07 PM

I disagree completly with the original poster... To me, running around trying to get be a ninja looter and get all the loot is not fun. The game is about teamwork, and if you're competing against eachother for loot instead of working together and against the enemy, it mess up the fun (for me at least).

Everyone, in theory, no matter what class they are, are equally contributing to the team, and therfore deserve and equal share of the loot.

I don't care if you're a hunter doing more damage and taking more damage. The ranger is keep the enemies back in a nice pattern so you can hit them, and getting status effects on them so that they don't damage the hunters as bad, and don't get to the forces. The forces are keeping the hunters and rangers healed and keeping status effects off them aswell. And also, doing big damage when they're not doing their support role.

Every class will run for boxes before creatures, which indangers the group as a whole, since not everyone is helping out killing the creatures.

If hunters start worrying about loot, they start playing sloppy. They won't worry about their health (so they die easier and endanger S-Rank), they will go in to kill as fast as possible to get the loot, which isn't the best strategy in a group.

If Rangers start worrying about loot, they will stop using their guns, and start going up for melee... which is fine, but they're going to get hurt more, and you also lose out on the benefits of having a ranger.

If a force starts worrying about loot, they will stop healing and supporting the rangers and hunters, who, since going after the loot as well, need more support than normal.

In my belief, setting the loot to give to finder endangers the bigger goal of getting exp from the creatures, getting an S-Rank from the mission, and also endangers having fun.

You are right in one thing, people have no right to complain when joining a give to finder room... They shouldn't join one in the first place.... I think all of us wish people realize you can change the looting options, so that there wouldn't be so many give to finder rooms... or I wish Sega wouldn't make give to finder the default option.

Oh and also, I set everything to "In order," since on random, sometimes it would give rare to the same person before anyone even gets one rare... It's also to note that friendly people play in rooms with "in order," and with those kinds of people, theres usually a general understanding of need before greed... so if a hunter weapon drops and a force picks it up,.... if the hunter is going to actually use it, the force should give it to the hunter... otherwise, foce can sell it or use it for his PM.

[ This Message was edited by: Gavin_King on 2006-11-03 11:11 ]

Silver_Wyrm

Nov 3, 2006, 02:11 PM

You are right in one thing, people have no right to complain when joining a give to finder room... They shouldn't join one in the first place.... I think all of us wish people realize you can change the looting options, so that there wouldn't be so many give to finder rooms... or I wish Sega wouldn't make give to finder the default option.

I agree, I dont like give finder so I just dont join the rooms, the choice is made before the room is made, no snesne arguing after, or making a scene for no reason.

Alpha-Hunter

Nov 3, 2006, 02:12 PM

your logic is crazy. yes, there are options. give finder, random and set or. not aggressive play and passive play. just because one is first does not make it the best or preferred method in the devs minds. we could just as easily (and more logically) assume that give finder is defaulted because that's the way PSO was. that makes more since then saying the devs think it's the best way so they made it the default.

we understand that you think any other option is unfair. you just have not done a good job of explaining why give finder is actually better.

[ This Message was edited by: Alpha-Hunter on 2006-11-03 11:13 ]

Cause_I_Own_U

Nov 3, 2006, 02:12 PM

Giver finder promotes ninja looting and box swipers

Random/set order promotes community and makes everyone focus on killing and not worrying about geting his fair share of loot

Give finder = noob

Shango

Nov 3, 2006, 02:14 PM

PSU leaves it open for your to choose to guard your health, or risk going for an item. If you don't want items...play passively. Just stop expecting the aggressive players (the ones taking all the risks) to just give them to the passive players. It's still not fair to me.

Do you really deny that the hunter has less "risk" going for the items than the force? Considering he's already at the item when it appears, has more HP than anyone else, and generally has better ways to handle upclose monsters?

If the rewards are the same, the risk should be the same. Ranger and Force going into melee is a substantially larger risk than hunter going into melee and thus should have a substantially larger reward. But there isn't one, because they are intended to be played as efficiently as possible (firing from a distance, away from the loot), not from within melee range.

Sev

Nov 3, 2006, 02:24 PM

Yeah, this has gone way out of control.

Hunters are up in front because...

1. They can't heal.

2. If they equip bullets their Handguns miss alot more. And they can only use Handguns anyway.

Why wouldn't a Hunter be up front? How can a Hunter play passively? It's not even possible right? To play passively as a Hunter and benefit the party? The reason that the loot options are the way they are, is simply because PSO made you pick Give Finder, so that's what everyone is used to apparently. You can change them of course, because it's more of a benefit to everyone that way. And even then, not all people are greedy in Give Finder games in the first place, sometimes they're just helping out and don't care about the items... So they don't pick them up. Simple.

Random I don't like so much, Order I do though. And Order should be what most people put there normal items on. If Hunters get rewarded for being what they are, then other classes should get rewards too. Everyone should get items, not just those in the front, but those in the back that are keeping the ones up in the front protected. Have you ever plaed a team sport? lol

Trinacepti

Nov 3, 2006, 02:26 PM

I will only play on Random/In Order.
That is the best combination. Other option is that if it is friends partying you can agree ahead of time who gets what rare if it drops. But in Pick Up Groups, I always do Random/In Order. I'll do the same when I become more melee oriented as a wartecher.

Neith

Nov 3, 2006, 02:31 PM

If people are stealing rares, join/make parties with 'Random' distribution. Then it doesn't matter who picks up what, it'll all get randomly assigned anyway.

JaiBlue

Nov 3, 2006, 02:32 PM

On 2006-11-03 11:06, ellievyle wrote:
JaiBlue - I think we'd both agree that PSU is a great game when you get items. It's the only way to play really...with people getting items. The game makers set "Give Finder" as default. The game "punishes" you playing passively, by making it harder for you to get items. All three of those things signal to me that this game is supposed to be played aggressively.

But here's the thing I LOVE about PSU. Everyone can choose. PSU leaves it open for your to choose to guard your health, or risk going for an item. If you don't want items...play passively. Just stop expecting the aggressive players (the ones taking all the risks) to just give them to the passive players. It's still not fair to me.

That's so biased, I can come in the middle of one of your fights and probably kill the monster before you do, if I just so happend to pick up the rare item that drops your gonna go off at the mouth about how you did the most damage and that you didn't need my help to kill it.

The term "help" is defined in many ways because there is no one way of helping someone. just because you take damage dosen't mean that I don't deverve anything if all I did was heal. The fact is I helped mabe not at the best of my ability, or mabe not as much as you wished I did, but I still did my part.

[ This Message was edited by: JaiBlue on 2006-11-03 11:39 ]

Thrash777

Nov 3, 2006, 02:48 PM

I've never had an issue with this sort of thing... mind you, I've always been a hunter, lol!

Lorsavasus

Nov 3, 2006, 02:50 PM

Is this a discussion, or just people listing off their opinions? I'll give this another shot, but I was hoping this would be more of an intelligible topic. Well, whatever.

I'm not intending 'Aggressive play' to be on the same terms of 'looting', so I'd like to make that clarification.

If my post was re-read, one might notice that I'm not looking at it from -only- an aggressive perspective, Alpha-Hunter. What I'm saying is that people aren't even considering this playstyle at all, and dismissing Finder as 'stupid', when infact it doesn't have to be. It has its purpose.

A passive, defensive combat style from Rangers and Forces puts more stress on the Hunters, and Random/Order can promote this sort of overly defensive playstyle while robbing the Hunters of much needed Mates (especially if there's no healing Force, or simply not one in the party at all).

Potential benefits per class, for using Finder with an aggressive party:

-Hunter: Receives potentially regular supply of Monos/Dis, etc. Receives support fire from mobile Ranger, potentially stun-locking the enemy. Recieves emergency Resta or stat buff from nearby Force more frequently.

-Ranger: Hunter holds the enemy at bay, and away from Ranger. Receives potentially regular supply of Monos/Dis, etc. Recieves emergency Resta or stat buff from nearby Force more frequently.

-Force: Hunter holds the enemy at bay, Ranger holds the enemy at bay, conserves PP from Resta use (since they now have Monos/Dis), can focus on buffs or elemental damage. FAR greater use to the party instead of being a Resta-Station. Why does everyone get to be lazy just cause a Force enters the party?

Tactical advantage: You're not thinning out your party by running to seperate corners. Actual benefit to each member of your team, instead of killing enemies by yourself in seperate corners.

Food for thought: Why get into close-combat and potentially harm yourself if you don't have to? Hunters don't have a choice. Finder can give incentive to aggressive play, offering what I listed above. But since no one wants to work with a Hunter and help THEM out, would you rather all Hunters play passively with just a Pistol?

There are people who aren't playing to the fullest extent of what they could do for their team, and that's fine, but I'm pointing out that Random/Order plays -specifically- to Rangers and Forces (jipping Hunters on much-needed items like I previously mentioned, since they will often get hit the most, along with not getting appropriate help from their team). Finder -can- be beneficial to all three classes, more than Random/Order ever could. If there's a looter, it breaks the benefits, obviously. I'm not saying its a perfect system.

Aggressive play (in the context I'm giving it in) doesn't mean "only Hunters get items". I've already stated (and now to state again) that if Rangers and Forces played in a closer-knit style with their Hunter counterparts, EVERYONE could get their fair share of items, on top of a possibly more balanced distribution of items that classes actually need. To recap one main benefit from above,(especially important for you, entropyboy) Hunters and Rangers could be better apt to take care of themselves, instead of relying on your Resta. Saves you money, and would also mean you wouldn't have to be JUST a healer. I'm not of the mind that is all a Force is good for... and I wouldn't consider one that healed me every time I lost 10 hp as a very efficient one.

I thought the rest of the thread touched on why Random Item and Order Rare were broke, but I'll repeat. Random Item can seriously screw some people over, or overly reward others (and make the whole mission near worthless for the former, if there was a bad ranking). Order Rare can be really horrible if there aren't enough rares to go down the list... of which there won't be, if you've got a six-person party.

To my own credit, I play a really good Ranger. I'm not going to pretend I do the most damage. Hunters love me because I allow them to complete more full combos and dish out damage quicker, and Forces love me because I can distract enemies momentarily so they have enough time to cast a spell. I don't have a single problem getting my fair share of items on Finder, and can leave plenty behind for the rest of my teammates. Oh, and I know how to use a Monomate. And for the record, I do enjoy both Finder and Order rooms. Random is my least preferred. I'm not hating on anybody's preference, so I don't feel that I should be labled a jerk for stating mine.

It's overly obvious that many people are posting without dedicated time behind all three classes, and are choosing to take a lot of this out of context. To that, I dunno what more to say.

Destin

Nov 3, 2006, 02:54 PM

Okay, I registered simply so I could reply to this abomination of a thread.

Your entire point is completely invalidated by the fact that putting the loot on order or random removes any actual drive to be a loot-whore since it doesn't matter who picks it up anyways.

That's nice if you went off and killed one solo mob and it dropped a relic edge... point is you're NOT assisting the majority of your group then. Much like if a force were to go solo something in a corner and everyone else died because he didn't heal, you wouldn't like that one now would you?

A team effort is what allows people to be able to go through most of the B and A rank missions SUCCESSFULLY. Hunters couldn't constantly be bashing mobs if they didn't have forces healing them and rangers debuffing and bringing down air mobs. It works in all ways, forces get rangers to slow mobs down and hunters to take damage. And rangers get forces to damage them, and hunters to keep distance between them.

Finders keepers is perfectly fine if you're just dragging someone along and they're okay with it, otherwise you're just being a blatant greedy jerk who doesn't have a single concept of what a team is.

You provide one of the most one-sided arguments I have ever seen, you have no clue what-so-ever what the heck you're even talking about at ALL. By your logic (and believe me, it's flawed to high heaven), forces and rangers should place themselves in harm's way when they think a mob is going to die, sit there, and then grab the item if one of the other 2 hunters doesn't get it first... right?

Seriously, think before you speak.

JaiBlue

Nov 3, 2006, 03:01 PM

On 2006-11-03 11:50, Lorsavasus wrote:

Aggressive play (in the context I'm giving it in) doesn't mean "only Hunters get items". I've already stated (and now to state again) that if Rangers and Forces played in a closer-knit style with their Hunter counterparts, EVERYONE could get their fair share of items.

This is the only statement I'am only concerned about as to why everyone keeps disagreeing with you.

As explained before by the other posters, your fighting style in a party shouldn't determind wether a item is yours or not. Besides it's not like if 4 people gang bang 1 monster there all are going to get something from it other than exp.

[ This Message was edited by: JaiBlue on 2006-11-03 12:02 ]

SonicTMP

Nov 3, 2006, 03:03 PM

wow this thread has become a massive uphill battle for the glory of the red de regan's brass balls.

RainBlue

Nov 3, 2006, 03:14 PM

I don't really care what your fighting style is. If i'm healing you that means, that i did my job. Not only did i do my job, i saved everybody money.

As for the argument that you use your PP to kill a mob, well guess what. My weapon recharge is probably more expensive then yours, considering that my wands + staves through a B or even A clear get use up way more PP 1k PP per rod, wands 550-650 PP then you. So don't compare PP sizes cuz on that note, i win, being force.

Another note, why should i a low health class have to venture in there and "Aggresively" as you so put it, endanger my group by running into mobs to pick up an item. i prefer a steady consistant group that will work together. I'll just run right in there and drop dead, by some means. What will my excuse me. Sorry, it was on Finder's keeper's loser weepers that's why we're not getting S rank?

If you wanna play finders keepers find some loot hungry people and join them ina party. While your at it, i wish they added name tags, so i could make sure to blacklist all of you people who are so damn loot hungry. Be fair, and respect. Period. It just comes down to that. Do you respect the other players your with? I don't care if they didn't do as much dmg, or healed you as much as you'd like. You have the choice to remove them from your party for not being competant, OR you could be a better person and ask them to switch a few things, to better suite the group.

Anyways, i'm done with this thread i've said my two cents and more

entropyboy

Nov 3, 2006, 03:21 PM

what the hell is 'passive' play?

last time i checked the enemies ran around and choose random players to attack, i always have enemies running at me as a force. and nuking enough to help party out, simply tag enemies before the hunters knock them into the air and kill them, or trying to raise my tech ranks, i consider this to be pretty offensive play style. besides keeping peoples life up and removing status ailments (for those 2% of you that play in neudiaz).

what exactly is 'passive' play??? just because i dont play a hunter doesnt mean i somehow avoid all risk because my 2second cast time spells happen to be ranged.

ellievyle

Nov 3, 2006, 03:25 PM

heh, you guys are a vicious lot!

For the record, if you get a looter/griefer in your room, for heaven's sake boot 'em. "Give Finder" isn't for the bad people, it only works with the good. If you have a bad person in your room, yes set it for Random/Order. I really can't believe you all think I'm some griefer because I want to play in a room that rewards aggressive players with items and passive players with health. If anything Random/Order is to be played with noobs and jerks.

Okay, Alpha, you love just talking about (ripping apart) the weakest part of that paragraph. Put all three points together, and there's my entire agrument. I'll respond fully, when you respond fully. Try not to take my words out of context next time. <3

-Shingo- Hunters can use their pistols, and peg enemies. Guns have status ailments and hit pretty well, especially if you're a Cast. They do very little damage and keep the hunter from getting hit. No character playing passively is effective. Forces and Rangers waste alot of PP by trying to kill an enemy from far away instead of being support (getting in closer and keeping an enemy from moving while their teammate's animation reset). Forces waste PP by not curing people while they're together in the mob, and time if they have to run in from standing along the sidelines.

But I think people have misunderstood me a bit. I'm NOT telling Rangers/Forces to get in a monster's face. (That's stupid and I certainly hope you won't do that if you're that class.) But you don't have to be sniping at the edge of a room either (which is what I usually see). Be closer (not stupidly close) and as a Hunter is finishing their combo's animation, snag the dropped item. Again, it's pretty sad I'm trying educate you all on how to get items and play your character aggressively. You should be experimenting and figuring this out on your own. Hunters have to dodge and Rangers and Forces should learn that skill as well.

As far as the team play aspect being the only reason to play... then the game isn't as fun as it could be. Yes, everyone loves playing with a good team, but if you're constantly getting jipped then it stops being fun (which is why threads like this keep getting made, Rangers and Forces keep feeling like they're being treated unfairly). I see alot of passive players complaining that the game isn't fun because they're not getting items. My advice would be that instead of stealing them from your aggressive teammates by putting it on Random/Order, please adjust your fighting style to benefit you and your team more.

Pengfishh

Nov 3, 2006, 03:32 PM

I don't know about you fools' experiences in 6 man parties, but the way I see it is everyone is killing everything and therefore no one can really claim a kill, kill stroke experience be damned. Therefore how can you claim an item other than snatching it off the ground? Then there's the convenience. Hunters are going to be right there in front of the items anyway, while Forces and Rangers will naturally have some distance.

So Hunters have a natural advantage to getting more items than the other types, which is unfair. There is also the item whore (bastards) factor to consider. Folks who rush around tagging enemies and snatching up items like grubby bitches. Since they can keep these items they yanked from other folks (bastards!) they're more inclined to join Give Finder teams, and why not.

I started to see my good friend become an item whore, snatching shit all over the place, rushing to boxes as soon as enemies die, bitching when someone beat him to a rare, etc. It was sad because generally I don't really care too terribly much until, as with my Force, I'm not getting a godamned thing because of, once again, grubby bitches.

So sure fella, let's all go melee or shoot monsters in the face with Rifles that are meant to hit shit from across the room or cast techs that have a natural distance of about 20 feet out RIGHT in front of everything just to snatch items. Let's all also take gobs of unnecessary damage (and subsequently spend an unnecessary amount of money on Mates) all so we can play on Give Finder because the Hunters want it.

In an unfair system, we have to go with the most fair way, but it really comes down to how fair you want to be. If we REALLY want a ton of broke ass Forces running around healing sparingly or Rangers playing gimped-to-shit melee because they can't afford to use their expensive weapons, let's do that. Otherwise, Random Distribution gives everyone SOMETHING.

Aberu

Nov 3, 2006, 03:41 PM

@OP.

If you have played lots of Rare: Set Random Non-Rare: Set in Order matches, you will see how fair and nice it is. No one complains about looting EVER. Everyone focuses intensely on just killing the mobs quickly and getting the dungeon over with. If you have played plenty of give finder, people loot while there is still a battle going on. Very rare to see that in the beforementioned mode. It isn't just because of item distribution, they set it up to make a better game overall as well. People play better when they aren't forced to be greedy to make it worth their while.

Give finder forces greed to get any items at all. In set random or set in order, sometimes people almost skip items and just don't care. Just want that s-rank.

JaiBlue

Nov 3, 2006, 03:42 PM

On 2006-11-03 12:32, Pengfishh wrote:
I don't know about you fools' experiences in 6 man parties, but the way I see it is everyone is killing everything and therefore no one can really claim a kill, kill stroke experience be damned. Therefore how can you claim an item other than snatching it off the ground? Then there's the convenience. Hunters are going to be right there in front of the items anyway, while Forces and Rangers will naturally have some distance.

So Hunters have a natural advantage to getting more items than the other types, which is unfair. There is also the item whore (bastards) factor to consider. Folks who rush around tagging enemies and snatching up items like grubby bitches. Since they can keep these items they yanked from other folks (bastards!) they're more inclined to join Give Finder teams, and why not.

I started to see my good friend become an item whore, snatching shit all over the place, rushing to boxes as soon as enemies die, bitching when someone beat him to a rare, etc. It was sad because generally I don't really care too terribly much until, as with my Force, I'm not getting a godamned thing because of, once again, grubby bitches.

So sure fella, let's all go melee or shoot monsters in the face with Rifles that are meant to hit shit from across the room or cast techs that have a natural distance of about 20 feet out RIGHT in front of everything just to snatch items. Let's all also take gobs of unnecessary damage (and subsequently spend an unnecessary amount of money on Mates) all so we can play on Give Finder because the Hunters want it.

In an unfair system, we have to go with the most fair way, but it really comes down to how fair you want to be. If we REALLY want a ton of broke ass Forces running around healing sparingly or Rangers playing gimped-to-shit melee because they can't afford to use their expensive weapons, let's do that. Otherwise, Random Distribution gives everyone SOMETHING.

OMG you just said everything I've been feeling at the bottom of my heart, I just could never put it to words.

I have nothing esle to say anymore since you already have,

Pengfishh just litterally closed this topic. Good job man I couldn't agree more.

[ This Message was edited by: JaiBlue on 2006-11-03 12:43 ]

Lorsavasus

Nov 3, 2006, 03:43 PM

JaiBlue - Unfortunately, I think people are taking the 'worst case scenario' route. Yes, Finder has the potential for causing looting problems. I've been in both types of rooms... where it works and where it doesn't. I'm not denying that it CAN suck. And hard. I've joined plenty of rooms with nice individuals who know how to leave items behind for the rest. Take what ya need is a nice way of playing (as opposed to the flipside of things which can be Random/Order alottment and hording). Just as Finder can promote looters in a random room, Random/Order can produce people who will horde what they get.

Destin - A bit more clarity next time would help, but I'll assume that shout out is toward me. I don't see how your argument is any less one-sided, but hey... apparently this discussion offends you. Not much I can say or do about that. First note, I never said anything about Rangers/Forces getting into melee range. Next off, explain how a Ranger getting the majority of Mates in a Random Item, Force-less room is fair the Hunter?

I think I'll just leave it at that, since this really isn't a discussion. I also never said that people couldn't try to convince me of otherwise (infact that's the whole reason why I posted was to exchange ideas). I seriously don't expect to convince someone so self-absorbed. Just as I assume you wouldn't expect me to see you as anything more than an emotionally enraged asshat. Videogames and winning the internet shouldn't be your whole life.

Alpha-Hunter

Nov 3, 2006, 03:44 PM

I'm done with this arguement. I hardly ever play in give finder games (as a hunter no less) anyway. On the rare desperate occasion that I do i'll just have to adjust. that's the way it is. and for the record a strong argument can't be ripped apart. notice how you never effectively rendered anyones arguement moot? and it's clear you don't know how the game works. or atleast how it works for someone other than yourself. a support char who stay close, but not that close yet swarms in as the hunters animation ends (mod attack or box break) and snags an item from him is no better than a loot whore. in fact they are indeed themselves a loot whore. in that manner order and random protects not only supports char but hunters as well.

and to say that people need adjust their play style to better suit the team based on loot distribution is a crazy notion. hunters are better equiped to take the damage. what difference does it make it rangers are across the screen or right in the mobs face as long as damage is being done and SE are being applied? and I, in my 30 plus hours of PSU have I ever seen a force just heal and not spam attack techs as well.

please feel free to reply and repeat the same biased, self serving stuff. it's fine really. it's a game and i'm sure you're a very good player of said game. but the fact of the matter here is that your every opinion seems to resolve around the notion of what's best for you. I just don't think that's what a cooperative game like PSU is all about. I'm a hunter and I apprecaite the roles that serve as the basis of the game mechanics. can they change, of course, but not for the reasons you're supporting. nice conversing with you though. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

ellievyle

Nov 3, 2006, 03:48 PM

Oh for heaven's sake, Penn how about some common sense. Cast your spell when you're behind an enemy. And if you're a ranger (couldn't tell) Use a rifle to run up on an enemy and your duel pistols when you get there. There is a way to play aggressively, don't dismiss it, because you don't know how.

But I am sorry you have to play Random/Order with your friend. I play with someone like that too, and it is sad. Looters/Griefers should be booted, but since that's your friend (otherwise a nice person), that situation is just really sad.

Sorenia

Nov 3, 2006, 04:07 PM

On 2006-11-03 10:55, KirinDave wrote:
This seems really simple to me. If you are playing with friends, use give-finder. The honor system is nearly always better if everyone plays the game.

That's rediculous I'd never play give finder with friends. That's the exact opposite of what you should do. If the honor system is so suited to you and your friends and someone gets something someone else needs then it's as simple as trading the item.

KirinDave

Nov 3, 2006, 04:13 PM

On 2006-11-03 13:07, Sorenia wrote:

On 2006-11-03 10:55, KirinDave wrote:
This seems really simple to me. If you are playing with friends, use give-finder. The honor system is nearly always better if everyone plays the game.

That's reidiculous I'd never play give finder with friends. That's the exact opposite of what you should do. If the honor system is so suited to you and your friends and someone gets something someone else needs then it's as simple as trading the item.

Why? Why go through the hassle at the end of each mission? With voice chat you just go, "Hey, didn't you say you needed nanocarbon? Here's some." Less work all around.

Sorenia

Nov 3, 2006, 04:17 PM

There is a way to play aggressively, don't dismiss it, because you don't know how.

Nobody is dismissing it because they don't know how. We're dismissing it because it's retarded and serves no purpose.

I still think this is a pointless argument though. I very much am glad give finder exists. It's like a fly trap. Sucking in all these morons away from my random/order games.

HOW can this possibly be bad? The only way I can figure is if the sheer mass of morons in give finder games congregate into a black hole and destroy us all.

Lorsavasus

Nov 3, 2006, 04:48 PM

Yet ironically people like Sorenia are the most unfriendly of all http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif Not a single unkind word was typed from me toward you, yet I'm labeled as a retard for talking. Glad I won't be playing with ya.

KirinDave's speaking common sense. Understandably there's a different type of game between Finder vs. Random/Order, but perhaps this is more an issue with being able to voice chat with your fellow team mates, which half of us aren't able to do.

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 05:01 PM

Ugh, some of you hold on to such dead weight excuses so dearly. It hurts my soul to read much more of it. I'm going to cross with the ones I think have been brought up most frequently...

Random/Turns prevents box theifs...
What? Are you forces and rangers now incapable of going after boxes? There is absolutely no leg for you to stand on in this. You are just as capable of breaking open a box before a hunter does and nabbing its loot. There is absolutely no arguement. It's a dog eat dog world, so go break the box before the hunters do. What? You have to range the boxes too? Please...

Random/Turns prevents people from running away from their mauled team to grab items and dick around while their party gets owned...
You can't be serious. Since when has one person running off in a party of 6 ever been such a detrimental moment that it costs the death of the entire team without the abilities of that one person? Honestly is that gap of 5 seconds that this character is not hitting on a mob really hurting the performance on the party on this one single advancement of enemies. And tell me the truth, how fast do you think enemies in this game are?! You can run circles around any enemy in this game no matter what rank the mission is. Honestly, I find this arguement weak as well.

It gets rid of the greedy people...
I would want to stand on "nice guys finish last" but that wouldn't get my exact point across as well as I would hope it would. Greed in a game like this gives you initiative. It's a dog eat dog world in the land of give finder and if you have any kind of competitive side and want to earn your keep, you want to pick the item up yourself.

You are working as a team, so no matter if you picked up the item and it goes to say a force, that force was healing you, so he in turn also earned it as much as you...
Random and turns can distribute loot to someone who could just stand there and do nothing at all. Fair share is not something that is calculated in this game. It just goes by the order, or in randoms case, rolls the dice. There's no "fair share" here because that is a measure of each individual player's performance so the idea that random and turns gives each player their "share" is so subjective and vague that it doesn't work in defending the means to use these systems.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-03 14:03 ]

Yoruichi

Nov 3, 2006, 05:06 PM

On 2006-11-03 14:01, daylight129 wrote:
Ugh, some of you hold on to such dead weight excuses so dearly. It hurts my soul to read much more of it. I'm going to cross with the ones I think have been brought up most frequently...

Random/Turns prevents box theifs...
What? Are you forces and rangers now incapable of going after boxes? There is absolutely no leg for you to stand on in this. You are just as capable of breaking open a box before a hunter does and nabbing its loot. There is absolutely no arguement. It's a dog eat dog world, so go break the box before the hunters do. What? You have to range the boxes too? Please...

Random/Turns prevents people from running away from their mauled team to grab items and dick around while their party gets owned...
You can't be serious. Since when has one person running off in a party of 6 ever been such a detrimental moment that it costs the death of the entire team without the abilities of that one person? Honestly is that gap of 5 seconds that this character is not hitting on a mob really hurting the performance on the party on this one single advancement of enemies. And tell me the truth, how fast do you think enemies in this game are?! You can run circles around any enemy in this game no matter what rank the mission is. Honestly, I find this arguement weak as well.

It gets rid of the greedy people...
I would want to stand on "nice guys finish last" but that wouldn't get my exact point across as well as I would hope it would. Greed in a game like this gives you initiative. It's a dog eat dog world in the land of give finder and if you have any kind of competitive side and want to earn your keep, you want to pick the item up yourself.

You are working as a team, so no matter if you picked up the item and it goes to say a force, that force was healing you, so he in turn also earned it as much as you...
Random and turns can distribute loot to someone who could just stand there and do nothing at all. Fair share is not something that is calculated in this game. It just goes by the order, or in randoms case, rolls the dice. There's no "fair share" here because that is a measure of each individual player's performance so the idea that random and turns gives each player their "share" is so subjective and vague that it doesn't work in defending the means to use these systems.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-03 14:03 ]

Wow someone is actually defending finder...priceless. Dunno what to tell ya, you seem so blinded by greed that you can only named one negative to fair looting that hinders the team. Yet you really can't dismiss all the negatives to give finder in your arguments.

Really and truely I think if you do some missions at the bare reqs or do S rank missions when they come your tone will change...or you will make S rank more difficult than it needs to be.

Jasam

Nov 3, 2006, 05:09 PM

On 2006-11-03 14:01, daylight129 wrote:
Ugh, some of you hold on to such dead weight excuses so dearly. It hurts my soul to read much more of it. I'm going to cross with the ones I think have been brought up most frequently...

Random/Turns prevents box theifs...
What? Are you forces and rangers now incapable of going after boxes? There is absolutely no leg for you to stand on in this. You are just as capable of breaking open a box before a hunter does and nabbing its loot. There is absolutely no arguement. It's a dog eat dog world, so go break the box before the hunters do. What? You have to range the boxes too? Please...

Yes, lets have half the team run off for boxes instead of killing the monsters, great idea (/sarcasm)

Random/Turns prevents people from running away from their mauled team to grab items and dick around while their party gets owned...
You can't be serious. Since when has one person running off in a party of 6 ever been such a detrimental moment that it costs the death of the entire team without the abilities of that one person? Honestly is that gap of 5 seconds that this character is not hitting on a mob really hurting the performance on the party on this one single advancement of enemies. And tell me the truth, how fast do you think enemies in this game are?! You can run circles around any enemy in this game no matter what rank the mission is. Honestly, I find this arguement weak as well.

Lets see, a force running into a fight to get items, instead of healing, and blasting, not only could easly cuase a detah, but slows down the party

It gets rid of the greedy people...
I would want to stand on "nice guys finish last" but that wouldn't get my exact point across as well as I would hope it would. Greed in a game like this gives you initiative. It's a dog eat dog world in the land of give finder and if you have any kind of competitive side and want to earn your keep, you want to pick the item up yourself.

Actully, it gets rid of people like you, co-operation in this game means S ranks, items for all and no fighting over drops, rathe then ninja looting, unnessassry deaths, and longer times to complete a level

You are working as a team, so no matter if you picked up the item and it goes to say a force, that force was healing you, so he in turn also earned it as much as you...
Random and turns can distribute loot to someone who could just stand there and do nothing at all. Fair share is not something that is calculated in this game. It just goes by the order, or in randoms case, rolls the dice. There's no "fair share" here because that is a measure of each individual player's performance so the idea that random and turns gives each player their "share" is so subjective and vague that it doesn't work in defending the means to use these systems.

Anyone who does nothing should already of been kicked. Any force who concentrates solely on the betterment of the party through healing, buffs and speel support, will come out with the least drops for the most effort.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-03 14:03 ]

Cerulean

Nov 3, 2006, 05:12 PM

I don't even join Finder teams anymore. I make and join (rare: Random, item: In Order) only. It lets me focus on playing and having fun and all the stress of missing out on rares (because I'm fighting instead of looting) is gone. Thank-you, Sega!

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 05:18 PM

On 2006-11-03 14:06, Yoruichi wrote:

On 2006-11-03 14:01, daylight129 wrote:
Ugh, some of you hold on to such dead weight excuses so dearly. It hurts my soul to read much more of it. I'm going to cross with the ones I think have been brought up most frequently...

Random/Turns prevents box theifs...
What? Are you forces and rangers now incapable of going after boxes? There is absolutely no leg for you to stand on in this. You are just as capable of breaking open a box before a hunter does and nabbing its loot. There is absolutely no arguement. It's a dog eat dog world, so go break the box before the hunters do. What? You have to range the boxes too? Please...

Random/Turns prevents people from running away from their mauled team to grab items and dick around while their party gets owned...
You can't be serious. Since when has one person running off in a party of 6 ever been such a detrimental moment that it costs the death of the entire team without the abilities of that one person? Honestly is that gap of 5 seconds that this character is not hitting on a mob really hurting the performance on the party on this one single advancement of enemies. And tell me the truth, how fast do you think enemies in this game are?! You can run circles around any enemy in this game no matter what rank the mission is. Honestly, I find this arguement weak as well.

It gets rid of the greedy people...
I would want to stand on "nice guys finish last" but that wouldn't get my exact point across as well as I would hope it would. Greed in a game like this gives you initiative. It's a dog eat dog world in the land of give finder and if you have any kind of competitive side and want to earn your keep, you want to pick the item up yourself.

You are working as a team, so no matter if you picked up the item and it goes to say a force, that force was healing you, so he in turn also earned it as much as you...
Random and turns can distribute loot to someone who could just stand there and do nothing at all. Fair share is not something that is calculated in this game. It just goes by the order, or in randoms case, rolls the dice. There's no "fair share" here because that is a measure of each individual player's performance so the idea that random and turns gives each player their "share" is so subjective and vague that it doesn't work in defending the means to use these systems.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-03 14:03 ]

Wow someone is actually defending finder...priceless. Dunno what to tell ya, you seem so blinded by greed that you can only named one negative to fair looting that hinders the team. Yet you really can't dismiss all the negatives to give finder in your arguments.

Really and truely I think if you do some missions at the bare reqs or do S rank missions when they come your tone will change...or you will make S rank more difficult than it needs to be.

I'm not blinded by greed. I don't know what you're talking about. You think I made this topic so that I could spread my parasitic plan across PSU to see more give finder games, so that I can go in and ninja all the items? Silly. That's not my point at all. And personally, I dismiss all the flaws of each system, because I believe they all have an equal amount of them. There's no imbalance of dismissal in the systems flaws.

Let's count it out...

Finders
1. People can be greedy. (I argue this)
2. Rangers and Forces can't get loot. (I argue this)

I am arguing the abundance of flaws for the so called ninja system, not comparing, so it matters not the comparison of how many flaws it has compared to your precious randomness. On the flip side, I could say the same to those...

Random/turns
1. People can do no work, and recieve.
2. Takes a competitive element away.
3. Can repeatedly gratify one person(In random).

So in my mind, the flaws of the random/turns outgo that of the finders, thus I present you with this topic. So don't try to label me as being "greedy" or something, because that's kind of silly at this point. I'm arguing the principle, not aiming for success at a grand master plan.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-03 14:23 ]

ChocoboChad

Nov 3, 2006, 05:31 PM

...

If you're for finder games, make/join them

If you'd rather play with ordered distribution, go ahead and make/join them.

If you prefer random distribution, play in games with this setting.

Problem solved. No use in arguing. - leaves thread-

ellievyle

Nov 3, 2006, 05:34 PM

Thank you Daylight. A lot of people on this thread think "Finder" supporters are horrible greedy people, and this simply isn't true. Infact, I think all 'finder' supporters here on the this thread have acted rather rationally and intellegantly, definately not the type to "loot".

Reiichi

Nov 3, 2006, 05:36 PM

Finders
1. People can be greedy

Maybe, but it's the hunter's role to judge what the 6 people in the party get. You have no idea how much everyone has looted or how much everyone has picked up. But at least you'll be sure that you get your fair amount since you're always right next to the loot.

2. Ranger and Forces can't get loot.

If the hunter leaves the scraps on the ground then yes they can. Rangers are better RANGED. It allows them to view the whole room, reapply debuffs where he can see them missing, more readily reapply the debuffs (hard to debuff 5 monsters when there is 1 in your face), and heck, shotguns don't spread at point blank. Forces are better from a distance since they can see the whole action being played out rather than in the middle of a fray. Sure they COULD run up to a monster as it's about to die, but that could be in a huge mob of monsters or otherwise dangerous location. Also in running up they aren't doing other useful tasks like healing, nuking, debuffing, killing.

For Random/turns
1. People can do no work, and receive.

Moot point, kick them.

2. Takes a competitive element away.

Lol? Chasing down loot and focusing on making sure you get an even share SLOWS down your killing rather than making your whole party kill faster. Sure you might not get as much of a rush trying to ensure you got that rare that just dropped, but you weren't going to save it for the force mid casting heal on you anyways.

3. Can repeatedly gratify one person.

Random in the long run will turn out even. Flip a coin, roll a dice.

Jasam

Nov 3, 2006, 05:40 PM

Lets see, for normal items

For finders:-

Encourages lazy Fo/RAs to play better
Brilliant for Hinters who are greedy

Aganst finders :-

Ninja looting
Longer Completion Time
Higher chance of death from fo/ra
Lazy Players are easy to kick
FO/RA gets almost no loot
Good players don't need encourgement to play activly, and support better anyway
Encourages competitive element, when you need to co-operate for higher ranks

All of those negatives are positives for the other style of play

The flaws in the other systems are

Ordered: can be manipulated, distribution isn't brilliant with meseta counting as a normal item
Random: Not as fair split of loot as ordered, but distribution can be better

For rares, all of the negatives for finders apply, and when rarer things come out, it will be of an even larger concern and cause aditional ninja looting.
Ordered.... Do i even need to point out that the first person always gets the first rare? and the 6th person won't get anything without 6 rare drops, its worse then finders!
Random is the only fair one here ^-^

Overall, ordered/random seems fairest and encourages the best overall party performance.

Sorenia

Nov 3, 2006, 05:55 PM

Not a single unkind word was typed from me toward you, yet I'm labeled as a retard for talking.
Sorry if you misunderstood something there. I labeled KirinDave a retard simply because he insulted people who don't "play aggresively" by acting like they need to "l2play" as a WoW player would put it.

This is the source of my retaliation you don't need to apply it to yourself. You also don't need to apply my comments on people who play "give finder" to yourself either. Im simply stating that lame people exist and they inevitably end up in give finder more often than random/order.

I am not generalizing though and claiming everyone who goes into give finder is like this. I sympathize with people who think they have a valid reason for give finder that don't happen to be jerks.

Pengfishh

Nov 3, 2006, 05:58 PM

But then we go back to what I said about MOST FAIR. Yes, random distribution can pander to an individual more than others, but it's a random chance and that individual is simply lucky -- they have the same chance as anyone else to get those items. Same thing could happen with finder, though. One person could get all the rares because they either happened to fall upon them each time, or they're grubby little bitches who nab up every primary color on the ground (green and yellow being primary in different areas).

To argue the following:
Random/turns
1. People can do no work, and recieve.
2. Takes a competitive element away.
3. Can repeatedly gratify one person(In random).

1. With finder, people can do a ton of work and recieve nothing.
2. This is not a competitive game. It is designed to be cooperative and having competition on the field nearly destroys the delicate balance. I certainly don't want to become snobbish about who I play with. I had plenty of that on PSO dealing with HUmars.
3. Like I said before, luck and nothing more.

It's really not even worth bitching about.

Yoruichi

Nov 3, 2006, 06:01 PM

Let's count it out...

Finders
1. People can be greedy. (I argue this)
2. Rangers and Forces can't get loot. (I argue this)

I am arguing the abundance of flaws for the so called ninja system, not comparing, so it matters not the comparison of how many flaws it has compared to your precious randomness. On the flip side, I could say the same to those...

Random/turns
1. People can do no work, and recieve.
2. Takes a competitive element away.
3. Can repeatedly gratify one person(In random).

So in my mind, the flaws of the random/turns outgo that of the finders, thus I present you with this topic. So don't try to label me as being "greedy" or something, because that's kind of silly at this point. I'm arguing the principle, not aiming for success at a grand master plan.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-03 14:23 ]

Wow, just stop trying now your just contridicting yourself.

First off If people get greedy in finders, they don't contribute just like people in orderly/random.

Whats competitive about screwing your teamates out of loot they helped earn? Whats competitive about forcing your newmen force into melee range to get slaughter with thier low hp just for a Wenciline.

Hmm One hunter repeatedly waiting for loot to drop repeatedly gratifies himself...

Your whole argument is flawed on rampant contridictions.

If your gonna be ignorant about it and not view both sides/classes of this argument just join what you enjoy http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Jasam

Nov 3, 2006, 06:06 PM

On 2006-11-03 14:58, Pengfishh wrote:
But then we go back to what I said about MOST FAIR. Yes, random distribution can pander to an individual more than others, but it's a random chance and that individual is simply lucky -- they have the same chance as anyone else to get those items. Same thing could happen with finder, though. One person could get all the rares because they either happened to fall upon them each time, or they're grubby little bitches who nab up every primary color on the ground (green and yellow being primary in different areas).

To argue the following:
Random/turns
1. People can do no work, and recieve.
2. Takes a competitive element away.
3. Can repeatedly gratify one person(In random).

1. With finder, people can do a ton of work and recieve nothing.
2. This is not a competitive game. It is designed to be cooperative and having competition on the field nearly destroys the delicate balance. I certainly don't want to become snobbish about who I play with. I had plenty of that on PSO dealing with HUmars.
3. Like I said before, luck and nothing more.

It's really not even worth bitching about.

This has been said twice already these two arguements for a flawed

1. People can do no work, and recieve. - this is what KICK is for
2. Takes a competitive element away. - this is a good thing and encourages co-operation, therefor fatser times and less deaths

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 06:12 PM

That's all subjective of course.

KirinDave

Nov 3, 2006, 06:14 PM

I want to re-inject my previous statement into this thread.

In pick-up games where you don't trust everyone, don't use Give Finder. You stop blatant and subtle gaming of the system, and it also spreads the cash around, which everyone needs.

In games with your friends, especially if you have set up a voice chat, give finder makes a lot of sense. It's the least overhead way, and if everyone is fair and adheres to the spirit of the party and tries to share the loot as people need it, then it's much less work.

This seems like common sense to me. I'm not sure why people are going through such esoteric logical contortions to try and prove the One True Distribution Method. Options exist for a reason. People are also using arguments like, "If you give out items randomly then the lazy forces will just sit in back and take all our items!" It's item distribution, not a solution to social problems. You still need to kick people who keep dying/drag the group down.

Kard

Nov 3, 2006, 06:14 PM

daylight129 wrote:

...personally, I dismiss all the flaws of each system, because I believe they all have an equal amount of them. There's no imbalance of dismissal in the systems flaws.

Let's count it out...

Finders
1. People can be greedy. (I argue this)
2. Rangers and Forces can't get loot. (I argue this)

I am arguing the abundance of flaws for the so called ninja system, not comparing, so it matters not the comparison of how many flaws it has compared to your precious randomness. On the flip side, I could say the same to those...

Random/turns
1. People can do no work, and recieve.
2. Takes a competitive element away.
3. Can repeatedly gratify one person(In random).

Well said. Each option is sufficiently reasonable to different types of players. Even so I also tend to gravitate towards random for a reason I will explain shortly. First though, random option supporters know that with each roll on an item the game provides some unknown chance for every person present to recieve that item. The 'give finder' is not as lenient, and instead gives way to a more 'competetive element' as you said, but unfortunately with this comes another flaw, and the reason for my personal bias:

Connection and latency issues can quickly diminish or completely eliminate any form of competetive elements in item looting. In a bad-to-worst-case scenario, superior connection speed/closer proximity to the server can obviously give certain fortunate players the kind of advantage that people on dial-up, or those who live in the middle of nowhere (such as myself) cannot match without some degree of luck. This can result in conditions being the same as or worse than the random option rewarding a single player repeatedly.

Otherwise I would simply stick with the safe (but true) argument that each looting option has its own advantages and disadvantages, and that some people are equipped and/or just inclined to favour one over the others.

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 06:26 PM

On 2006-11-03 15:01, Yoruichi wrote:

Let's count it out...

Finders
1. People can be greedy. (I argue this)
2. Rangers and Forces can't get loot. (I argue this)

I am arguing the abundance of flaws for the so called ninja system, not comparing, so it matters not the comparison of how many flaws it has compared to your precious randomness. On the flip side, I could say the same to those...

Random/turns
1. People can do no work, and recieve.
2. Takes a competitive element away.
3. Can repeatedly gratify one person(In random).

So in my mind, the flaws of the random/turns outgo that of the finders, thus I present you with this topic. So don't try to label me as being "greedy" or something, because that's kind of silly at this point. I'm arguing the principle, not aiming for success at a grand master plan.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-03 14:23 ]

Wow, just stop trying now your just contridicting yourself.

First off If people get greedy in finders, they don't contribute just like people in orderly/random.

Whats competitive about screwing your teamates out of loot they helped earn? Whats competitive about forcing your newmen force into melee range to get slaughter with thier low hp just for a Wenciline.

Hmm One hunter repeatedly waiting for loot to drop repeatedly gratifies himself...

Your whole argument is flawed on rampant contridictions.

If your gonna be ignorant about it and not view both sides/classes of this argument just join what you enjoy http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

How is my arguement full of "rampant contradiction"? And how am I being ignorant? I've adressed what pro-random people feel are the flaws of the finder system, just as much as I'm butting heads with the random/turn system. I'm simply debating those flaws because I feel they are not contrived from a very sensible idea that finder is unfair. I do know how the rangers and forces feel, and I've already made it clear that there is a disadvantageous placement to their class in looting, I stated that in my first post! You misunderstand so much it pains me to read your posts.

...

And forces and rangers aren't sometimes red handedly waiting for an enemy to die so they can nab the loot? You generalize too much.

I can break boxes and pick up loot with monsters on me too you know. It's not like if I'm breaking boxes that you must assume that automatically every monster turns their head to beat down the lowest level, lowest hp character in the area.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-03 15:29 ]

Cause_I_Own_U

Nov 3, 2006, 06:32 PM

Give finder could work in a team of decent minded people, but how many of them are in random parties, not alot....this is why people who play with friends keep it on give finder and random parties keep it on random/order, so they dont get ninjad

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 06:36 PM

On 2006-11-03 15:32, Cause_I_Own_U wrote:
Give finder could work in a team of decent minded people, but how many of them are in random parties, not alot....this is why people who play with friends keep it on give finder and random parties keep it on random/order, so they dont get ninjad

The only people insisting that you can "ninja" items in this game are the people themselves.

Yoruichi

Nov 3, 2006, 06:37 PM

Its a contridiction because everything you blame one side of doing your side has it to the same effect. The fact you ignored those tendencies showed ignorance. Yes forces and rangers do that, sacrificing thier utility and in newman cases, getting them hurt badly. The problem is when the healer runs to do that when captains or kings spawn with thier damage boost. Little scenarios like that hurt the team and the rank sometimes.

Wallin

Nov 3, 2006, 06:57 PM

Sorry, I'm not going through the last nine pages to see if this has been stated already, so if I say something you've already seen, then just ignore it.

On 2006-11-02 23:34, daylight129 wrote:
As Forces/Rangers, we are usually ranged from the fight, disallowing us any sort of immediate looting from the enemies that are being killed...

Your "solutions" to this just don't make sense. A ranger and a Force are generally meant to attack from far away. There is no reason for either of these classes to change their play styles simply because people are greedy - that's why they desire random or order loot. If someone is smart enough to gauge when an enemy is about to die so they can loot it:

1) Their efficiency just plummeted. Instead of the Force focusing on possibly healing someone, they're running straight into the fray with nothing on their mind except the loot. A "greedy" player like that is simply worthless. In turn, because there's a noted atmosphere of competition over loot, people either blame each other being loot whores, which pisses off the team as a whole, or EVERYONE becomes careless and the entire mission is not about survival, but how fast you can rape a set of boxes.

2) They're smart enough to know to also know that their class shouldn't jump into the middle of monsters that can stunlock them and blow them away along with the ranking in 2 hits.

On 2006-11-02 23:34, daylight129 wrote:
"It doesn't discriminate by performance, which is the first flaw, and a huge one at that."

This method is only good if you're SOLOING. Who is going to want to join a team where only the ones who do the most damage get the goods? What if I have a friend who is 5 levels lower than me, and is still using C rank weapons while I have B rank? They'll never be able to get any items because they'll never do more damage than me, EVER. I will get all the loot every time and continue to advance while they never get a dime and have to go back to playing C rank missions elsewhere and take over as the new loot whore in another team. This would just ruin every single team out there as likely only one or two people would be doing the most damage while everyone, especially SUPPORT classes, would only suffer.

And I have to leave work now, good night. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Wallin on 2006-11-03 15:59 ]

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 06:57 PM

I still don't see how your accusations against my person when I'm just trying to figure this out through a meaningful debate are justified. I have not ignored any of the facts here. If my question is, how is random/turns more fair than finder, then how can you accuse me of being ignorant when the answer to that question is almost completely relative to that persons opinion/class? I'm trying to level with people, say that finder is no less equal or fair to people than the other reamaining two.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-03 16:09 ]

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 07:07 PM

On 2006-11-03 15:57, Wallin wrote:
Sorry, I'm not going through the last nine pages to see if this has been stated already, so if I say something you've already seen, then just ignore it.

On 2006-11-02 23:34, daylight129 wrote:
As Forces/Rangers, we are usually ranged from the fight, disallowing us any sort of immediate looting from the enemies that are being killed...

Your "solutions" to this just don't make sense. A ranger and a Force are generally meant to attack from far away. There is no reason for either of these classes to change their play styles simply because people are greedy - that's why they desire random or order loot. If someone is smart enough to gauge when an enemy is about to die so they can loot it:

1) Their efficiency just plummeted. Instead of the Force focusing on possibly healing someone, they're running straight into the fray with nothing on their mind except the loot. A "greedy" player like that is simply worthless. In turn, because there's a noted atmosphere of competition over loot, people either blame each other being loot whores, which pisses off the team as a whole, or EVERYONE becomes careless and the entire mission is not about survival, but how fast you can rape a set of boxes.

2) They're smart enough to know to also know that their class shouldn't jump into the middle of monsters that can stunlock them and blow them away along with the ranking in 2 hits.

On 2006-11-02 23:34, daylight129 wrote:
"It doesn't discriminate by performance, which is the first flaw, and a huge one at that."

This method is only good if you're SOLOING. Who is going to want to join a team where only the ones who do the most damage get the goods? What if I have a friend who is 5 levels lower than me, and is still using C rank weapons while I have B rank? They'll never be able to get any items because they'll never do more damage than me, EVER. I will get all the loot every time and continue to advance while they never get a dime and have to go back to playing C rank missions elsewhere and take over as the new loot whore in another team. This would just ruin every single team out there as likely only one or two people would be doing the most damage while everyone, especially SUPPORT classes, would only suffer.

And I have to leave work now, good night. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Wallin on 2006-11-03 15:59 ]

To be honest, read it all. Because you did touch on matters that were not of any significance to my point.

A couple of you have stated that this is an uphill "battle". It's a pointless thread because no one will do it anyway. I will try to rephrase so that you can understand.

Random/Turns is no more fair than Finders has been, they all equally contain a variety of flaws that may end up rewarding people who A. Don't do their job or B. Are complete annoyances in a game.

When the lot of you that are huffing and puffing against the "ninja looters" or as I prefer, the "pro-finders", can just sit back and try and mentally process that...maybe what you post won't be a 100% opinion based on your class/level/past experience and we can get somewhere. I appreciate the posts in the thread that appeared to show great understanding...that the systems are all equally flawed and that finders still has a fair place in the scheme of things.

A few of you have stated clearly, that random/turns is absolutely without any sorta of thought, 100% more fair than finders, and that, is what I'm arguing.

The small list of things I said to the Fo's/Ra's in terms of compensating for their disadvantage, like going in to melee to get close, none of that has any make-do with what I'm saying. I was simply giving hints to those that refuse to deal with a finders game and won't just leave or feel they need to stay.

Someone posted earlier that all I simply asked is that if you don't like it, get out. Instead of trying to tell me why the other systems are better. He was right.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-03 16:11 ]

Yoruichi

Nov 3, 2006, 07:16 PM

"When the lot of you that are huffing and puffing against the "ninja looters" or as I prefer, the "pro-finders""

Ok that comment made me laugh, now I know this is a joke, but really who lets people into a game that just idle at the entrance and collect loot thats a broken party. Now who lets people scramble past mobs for boxes or just camp at mobs corpses waiting for loot to pop up? Everyone, its not exactly party breaking it just lowers thier efficency and puts rank in danger.

In short its accepted, not liked or prefered by the majored, that people scramble for loot ignoring the objective which isn't timed so its not to bad. But its not accepted to afk on purpose just for loot for any reason accepted agreed upon by the party. Do you get where I'm going with this?

I don't do my job I don't need to be in the party, I snatch everything up thats circumstances of the loot system.

Schubalts

Nov 3, 2006, 07:16 PM

Just end this topic already, sheesh...

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 07:23 PM

On 2006-11-03 09:58, Sorenia wrote:
Hey hey guys aren't you forgetting something. Give finder has a huge benefit. All the probably annoying people join give finder games (or create them).

It's like PSU has a filter right at the mission start screen. Litterally like a question pops up "Are you an annoying player?" and amazingly they all push yes. We can then simply ignore those games to our hearts content.

Of course if we are talking about someone who's a friend and he wants give finder the only correct answer is get a new friend.

In summary the OP is correct right? Do you any of you even remotely want to group with him? I doubt it.

The disrespect is also unwanted. I didn't come in here saying that people who play on random/turns are annoying, or are "noobs" even if I did think so.

Why would no one want to group with me? I have fun and I deck monsters in any game no matter what the item distribution is. I don't discriminate because I know every system is bad/good in their own ways. Just because of this topic doesn't mean I'm seriously some kind of greedy prick, I think I've already stated as to why in response to the person that called me ignorant and greedy above. It's not like I'm trying to hatch some kind of master plan to go in all the finder games and steal loot.

Yoruichi

Nov 3, 2006, 07:28 PM

On 2006-11-03 16:23, daylight129 wrote:

On 2006-11-03 09:58, Sorenia wrote:
Hey hey guys aren't you forgetting something. Give finder has a huge benefit. All the probably annoying people join give finder games (or create them).

It's like PSU has a filter right at the mission start screen. Litterally like a question pops up "Are you an annoying player?" and amazingly they all push yes. We can then simply ignore those games to our hearts content.

Of course if we are talking about someone who's a friend and he wants give finder the only correct answer is get a new friend.

In summary the OP is correct right? Do you any of you even remotely want to group with him? I doubt it.

The disrespect is also unwanted. I didn't come in here saying that people who play on random/turns are annoying, or are "noobs" even if I did think so.

Why would no one want to group with me? I have fun and I deck monsters in any game no matter what the item distribution is. I don't discriminate because I know every system is bad/good in their own ways. Just because of this topic doesn't mean I'm seriously some kind of greedy prick, I think I've already stated as to why in response to the person that called me ignorant and greedy above. It's not like I'm trying to hatch some kind of master plan to go in all the finder games and steal loot.

There you go getting stuck on one word and you miss used it. I said your actions were ignorant, I never personally called you an ignorant person.

Sev

Nov 3, 2006, 07:33 PM

lol, everyones taking everything out of context. What the hell does it matter anymore?

It's just gonna get locked eventually or forgotten.

If you don't want finder, don't play finder.

If you don't want random/order, don't play random/order.

They both have their problems... And people have their problems with them... And really. I don't care.

happy_cricket

Nov 3, 2006, 07:45 PM

In a perfect world, the Hunters that I have been chasing about healing would let me get some of the items and meseta, since I am the one who must constantly buy photon points, but in reality, that is the exception while the first come first serve paradigm is what I have experienced mostly. It's my choice to join a team though... when I am hunting for items, I generally make my own game. When I want exp, I chase other hunters around in thiers.

Garroway

Nov 3, 2006, 07:59 PM

It has been my experience that the item distribution method is irrelevant, and it has been more of a question of Party quality.

Silver_Wyrm

Nov 3, 2006, 08:37 PM

this post will not be about the loot system, but the passive/aggressive argument.

Passive and Aggressive gameplay, Im seeing aggressive as "your on the fornt line" and aggressive gets the loot, and guilty wars used as the example.

Passive and agressive in a fighting game vs. an rpg are entirely different, in a fighting game punish the people who are cheesy and sit in the bac spamming range, because its suppsoed to be up close and personal, tahst who they play.

In a game like this "Aggressive" is measured differently.

A hunter is not always "agressive" a hunter who sits ina mobs face swinging his weapon and soaking damage (and forces tp) is playing passively, and aggressive hunter will lock on and side step, try to predict and avoid atatck, not to mention hit that vulnerable backside and use certain PA's in certain situations, in doing so maximize damage and minimizing risk.

A passive ranger will pull out a rifle and shoot one enemy over and over, an aggressive ranger will switch weapons/elements for the situation or amount of enemies, such freeze one of those koltova, then switch taregts and try freeze another actively trying to lock down as many eneemies as possible, oh a caster spawned, pull out that silence pistol and keep hm from casting, polts spawned grab the shock shotgun.

A passive force will rarely switch weapons, spam one spell regardless, and hardly use resta, if its even on his main weapon. An aggressive force will have multipel wepaons for different purposes, try hit enemy weaknesses, or change spells depending on how many enemies are present, use reverser to keep rangers/hunters healthy and try top off eveyrones hp at once.

PSU is not a fighting game, passive and aggressive are differen tmeanings here beyond "be on the fornt line" and even hunters can be passive. Passive players arent much help no, but htere is no loot system ont he game taht will "bypass" passive players because that isnt something possible within game mechanics without being biased in one way or another (eg: highest damage gets more items, what about healing forces?) And "maximizing your risk" is not gonna get you more loot, because maximizing your risk is stupid and loses S ranks, even hunters dont have to be "maximum risk" just because they are in melee.

[ This Message was edited by: Silver_Wyrm on 2006-11-03 17:39 ]

singogreatest

Nov 3, 2006, 08:46 PM

MONEY SHOULD HAVE ITS OWN OPTION
THEN ILL BE HAPPY

Wallin

Nov 3, 2006, 08:52 PM

On 2006-11-03 16:07, daylight129 wrote:
Random/Turns is no more fair than Finders has been, they all equally contain a variety of flaws that may end up rewarding people who A. Don't do their job or B. Are complete annoyances in a game.

And again I disagree with you. If someone isn't pulling their weight or is being annoying, you kick them, plain and simple. The loot system is irrelevant, because someone can be a loot whore or someone can be doing nothing, and therefore the damage is equal to both, and the only solution is to kick them out.

So far, all of your points ONLY support hunters, and even though you may have played the other classes, as you clearly play a hunter you're also evidently biased.

On 2006-11-03 16:07, daylight129 wrote:

As Forces/Rangers, we are usually ranged from the fight, disallowing us any sort of immediate looting from the enemies that are being killed...
...
The small list of things I said to the Fo's/Ra's in terms of compensating for their disadvantage, like going in to melee to get close, none of that has any make-do with what I'm saying.

Then really, don't say anything at all because you just ruined your point. You originally put the topic in bold, you called it a key point, it was one of your defenses in your argument, and now you say that your suggestions had nothing to do with what you're saying. People are complaining about something, you say those people are wrong, but you just invalidated your support and got rid of your solutions to the 'excuses' as you put it as to why they are wrong, therefore you have offered no reason as to why it's fair and also no justification.

And again, you're talking about people who "don't do their job" but your solution is just that - to have Forces and Rangers go out of their normal job expectations and perform close combat, so your solution is wrong anyway.

The only reason order loot would be considered unfair is if people aren't pulling their weight, and if that's the case, then we go back to my first point: kick them.

Also in your first post:

Atleast with finders keepers, there is slight competition at some points in who can more quickly amp themselves to pick up the item or run to it. It adds a fundamental trait to obtaining items that to me was so key in making PSO what it was

The only 'fundamental trait' this is key for is greed. Again, this only supports the natural way a hunter plays, unsurprisingly considering you also wrote:

They willingly chose the class, and should know the advantages and disadvantages of being that class, whether it be game fundamentals or an item picking up deficiency... I believe that the opportunity to obtain items is in every way just as simple as being a hunter

You admit there that people who knowingly choose a class with an "item picking up deficiency", meaning you also acknowledge that this deficiency exists and labeling on your own that the Ranger and Force class have a handicap on the finders system, so all the 'fairness' just flew right out the window and no, it is not as simple as being a hunter evidently.

Your arguments have nothing to do with the skill or work of the player. Being able to be a better loot whore than other people is not a skill, it's a guy who should do everyone a favor and play offline mode.

If everyone is pulling their weight, you should have no problem using Turns, but for some reason you do.

You have yet to show any reason why finders actually has a fair place among the other loot options. How is it fair that a Force has to sacrifice healing or damage to charge in and steal loot? Same for a ranger. Finders loot means that it's the players who judge their entitlement to loot, and that itself is entirely flawed. "Gee, I used up 10 PP on this monster, I deserve this synthesis item." Why? How often do you take an item that drops? What if the Force hasn't grabbed one in the last eight drops, but is still pulling their weight? Finders is based strictly on a very narrow scope of personal opinion because you don't know how often people loot, you don't know how much work everyone has done, and yet you continue to grab items at your leisure anyway, and again the TEAM is just plain ruined by this.

What if a rare twin saber drops on a Pannon while the Rangers are all focusing on the tougher monsters and the Forces have to heal them, and are doing more work than you - you automatically deserve the rare weapon because you ran off to kill a weak little Pannon alone? Talk about slacking off, at least with the other two systems someone doing work actually had a chance at their fair share.

Your reasoning for using finders is apparently nothing more than personal greed. The scramble for loot that you find to be a critical part of the game is essential only to loot whores, and your idea of classes changing their style is just plain stupid. Please come up with a better 'excuse' next time of why people should universally accept this as fair.

Silver_Wyrm

Nov 3, 2006, 09:01 PM

there is NO fair system,
give finders bias's towards hunters or ninja looters who dont concentrate on enemies or group.

Random will randomly choose someone, and will bias by default *randomly* no telling who

Set order is the most "even" setting, everyone gets the same cut.

Largets problem with give finder is it mainly bias's to one class, giving them an advantage that many fo them will want, and it can directly effect group performance, whereas with random or order picking up the items soona s they drop wont be the main focus.

Apathy

Nov 3, 2006, 09:19 PM

This tread isnt dead yet?

KirinDave

Nov 3, 2006, 09:24 PM

On 2006-11-03 14:55, Sorenia wrote:

Not a single unkind word was typed from me toward you, yet I'm labeled as a retard for talking.
Sorry if you misunderstood something there. I labeled KirinDave a retard simply because he insulted people who don't "play aggresively" by acting like they need to "l2play" as a WoW player would put it.

Wait. I didn't say anything like that, at all. Go look at my post! I can't even see how anyone could infer a L2P message in my post. You didn't reply to my post with anything consistent with what you just said.

I said that if you trust your party (and maybe if you have voice chat, I'm not sure), give-finder is a very low-overhead way of distributing items. It sure worked well for me and my friends in PSO.

I think you owe me an apology, Sorenia. Clearly you made a mistake here, and confused what I was saying with what ellievyle said.

Yoruichi

Nov 3, 2006, 10:00 PM

On 2006-11-03 18:19, Apathy wrote:
This tread isnt dead yet?

Bump it more, mabey it will eventually die...

Apathy

Nov 3, 2006, 10:05 PM

On 2006-11-03 19:00, Yoruichi wrote:

On 2006-11-03 18:19, Apathy wrote:
This tread isnt dead yet?

Bump it more, mabey it will eventually die...

Stop it .. Im starting to like you :3

PALRAPPYS

Nov 3, 2006, 10:19 PM

On 2006-11-02 23:34, daylight129 wrote:
Okay this has been bugging me a lot for a long time, even since PSO days and I thought I'd lift it off my chest in to a good discussion. I hope I can atleast get that. No flames please. Not wanted.

Back in Phantasy Star Online, there was a commonly thrown around idea that it was more difficult to obtain rares are other items of any value in parties with hunters. This is presented by the fact that hunters specialize in melee combat, so they are indeed usually near the enemy as it perishes, most of the time granting them immediate dibs on any sort of item that the enemy might drop. I can't say I disagree with the somewhat of an advantage the hunters very obviously do have in this kind of situation but my opinion of the matter is quite contradictory. I've had people join and leave a game because I wouldn't put it on random item distribution. Now, to their credit, it's their choice to either leave or stay. I have no control in how they want to play their game, that's why the item distribution system was even created in the first place. But I want to address a few key points...

As Forces/Rangers, we are usually ranged from the fight, disallowing us any sort of immediate looting from the enemies that are being killed...
Maybe so, but there are ways to compensate. Get close to the enemy when you think he's going to die. Have a melee weapon yourself so you can walk up and give him a few wacks when you know his time is near. That way your chances are that of the hunter beating on it. Boxes are exempt from this, and boxes can contain items too you know. Any non-rare item that drops from an enemy in this game most likely can be found in a box just as well, and there are countless containers/haystacks/whatever all over this game. Use AOE spells - be in the middle of the action yourself if there are enemies abound that drop something of any kind of value to you. Rangers are said to almost be more efficient at swinging a melee weapon sometimes than a hunter, due to their ATA. Make use of that! Get in there and finish of the enemy if it drops something you are searching for.

I believe that these sorts of excuses are being used as a crutch. The item distrubtion systems that were implicated in this game eliminate that, but it's making all parties random distribution.

Random item distribution is most efficient because it's 100% luck who gets what, class imbalances hold no bar on the items that I can grab in my runs!
How can this not seem like it's taking a small element away? For some reason if I'm killing a monster alone in a corner, and I deplete my weapon's entire PP to kill it, it drops a rare and it gets jetted over to the hunter about 6-7 levels lower getting knocked down every 5 seconds by a Golmoro, I get ticked off. It doesn't discriminate by performance, which is the first flaw, and a huge one at that. Atleast with finders keepers, there is slight competition at some points in who can more quickly amp themselves to pick up the item or run to it. It adds a fundamental trait to obtaining items that to me was so key in making PSO what it was(the legit side of it). Secondly, although unlikely but possible, the same person can recieve an abundance of items over 1 run through this "luck".

My last point to get across is that Forces/Rangers shouldn't have much more room to complain based on the fact that their classes were not handed to them. They willingly chose the class, and should know the advantages and disadvantages of being that class, whether it be game fundamentals or an item picking up deficiency. In any case, I believe that the opportunity to obtain items is in every way just as simple as being a hunter, it just depends how you play. You can be a total looter and run around healing while letting the hunters tank the monsters while you nab all the items when they die. Don't get me wrong, I've played the other classes so I've had the experience to support what I say. So the next time you join a game and it happens to be finders keepers, instead of bitching at the leader to change it, do us all a favor and go make your own game.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-02 23:34 ]

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-02 23:53 ]

I agreed with everything you said SO much that it's not even funny. I totally understand your post. I love it. I really hate the random drops. I mean, I'm a force, and I like to be a force, so I try to grab all the items I can get. Honestly, I might even be an item hog! >_> After the hunters combo that enemy, I rush up to it quickly while they're finishing their attack, and steal the money! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif Ah, and I found some Omega Acid today, and it went to someone else. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif Despise that retarted random drop...

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 11:00 PM

On 2006-11-03 19:00, Yoruichi wrote:

On 2006-11-03 18:19, Apathy wrote:
This tread isnt dead yet?

Bump it more, mabey it will eventually die...

Go kill someone else's topic. That stuff isn't welcome in mine.

I didn't ruin any of my points Wallin. I gave some ideas for Forces and Rangers to play against the system they think is evil if they feel they can't just leave and make their own game. My overall point being that all the systems are equally fair, those suggestions have nothing to do with it. This is what I meant by those points having nothing to do with what I mean to convey. The bold text states an issue that pro-random people speak of, and the normal text states what you might be able to do to overcome that. But at the end of the post, I say pretty clearly that above all else, if you aren't gonna go by the loot system, then get out of the game.

There is no contradiction in what I've said.

Saying that I'm biased is a cop out in result of not being able to formulate a real reason as to why you believe so intuitively in the random/turns over finders, and so is calling me ignorant.

And wait, wait, wait, wait...wait! Where at all did I say that this was an issue of fairness? I'm trying to say that all the systems are equally as ungratifying and pleasing at the same exact time. Neither nor of them are better than the other, they all can give items to someone who doesn't deserve them. But finders to me, is the only system, that when it comes to who deserves it, the power is put in to that of the player. This way whoever gets it didn't jip anyone but that of their own time to pick it up, and those who did not get it did not put forth the effort to. Most of you say that not going for the items makes games run smoother and faster, and it makes things more efficient...but tell me this. If you are honestly noticing a difference in your s rank times between your friend groups, and the really high level pug groups with 1 guy who goes and loots stuff, then you are being kind of nit picky.

I argue against the reasons much of you provide that finders is not fair...can someone quote me and explain to me how I might be wrong? I am completely open to others opinions, and I'm glad that there have been no flames thus far, but nobody has held up more than a burnt out candle as to why finders is less fair than random/turns.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-03 20:05 ]

Yoruichi

Nov 3, 2006, 11:39 PM

I was being sacastic at someones attempt to revive a topic just to end it...thats the kind of blindness to irony I was talkign about.

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 11:40 PM

I know you were being sarcastic. I'm not that dense. I just said don't kill my topic.

Yoruichi

Nov 3, 2006, 11:47 PM

Long as there are people like you around to compete against the obvious, these topics will never die...trust me doll.

daylight129

Nov 3, 2006, 11:48 PM

If it was thought obvious I wouldn't be here ranting about it >_<

Yoruichi

Nov 3, 2006, 11:49 PM

Theres black theres white and theres grey in the end none are right and grey is normally not possible. We just picked the lesser of the evils

daylight129

Nov 4, 2006, 12:13 AM

Good to know your opinion. That's what I'm looking for.

Gavin_King

Nov 4, 2006, 02:38 AM

Long, but the original poster wants some constructive discussion and arguements about the flaws and solutions for the loot systems.

Normal Items:

A. Random/order:
Flaws:
(1a.) Mates are given to non-hunters,
(2a.) Class-specific items are given to wrong class,
(3a.) Bigger money drops can be constantly given to one person unfairly
(4a.) People not doing their fair share of work, are given the same reward as people doing their share, or more than their share.
(5a.) Takes a competitive edge away from the game

A. Soultions/Arguments:
(1a.) People need mates other than just for healing. Rangers/Forces need them for selling, for feeding, and for emergencies. You might say that hunters need them for the same reasons, plus need them for healing, but if the Forces are doing their job with heals, or rangers doing their job with status effects, you won't. If they're not doing their job, you boot them, if you don't have one in your group, then all the mates are going to a hunter. In a co-operative game, like PSU, if you're low on mates, because you find you're using them... ask for some. I would be shocked if a ranger/force in the group didn't give you some.

(2a.) Kind of same as last point of 1.... Ask for them. Need before greed is a general rule no matter what item distribution you use. If a weapon dropped and you need it, no matter random/order/flaw, if someone else, who isn't going to use it, got it, ask for it, and they will drop it. If they don't, then they are a greedy person, i.e. not a team player, and should be booted.

(3a.) Same thing can happen no matter what item distribution happens. Even still, it's random... Over the course of playing a mission, it should be roughly even. Sure it will deviate a little, but on the average, it will be equal by person.

(4a.) If they're not doing their fair share of work, boot them. Simple as that.

(5a.) It's a team game... you're on the same team.... it's cooperative, not competitive. There's still competition, but it's in how well you help the group, and being the best team member you can. People can take pride in that. I don't see how people can take pride in running after loot instead of helping out their team. Taking the competitive edge away from the game, improves the cooperative side of the game, since people will be working as a team, and not going after individual loot.

Give to finder:
B. Flaws/arguments:
(1b.) Hunters have an advantage to getting loot, since they're on the front line.
(2b.) Hunters deserve more loot since they're at more risk
(3b.) Players focus on loot over exp, going through the mission fast and efficiently, and getting S-Rank
(4b.) People can be greedy

B. Solution/Arguments:
(1b.) Solution would be for Rangers/Forces to be closer to the front line... But I don't think anyone has said they should be as close to the action as a hunter is. A hunter is face to face, someone said that obviously forces/rangers shouldn't be "stupidly close.".... So.... even if Rangers/forces play closer, the hunters are even more closer, and still have that advantage.

(2b.) How are they at more risk? They have more health, and more defense than any other class. So they take a lot of hits, but have stats to take a lot of hits. Force/Rangers take less hits, but their stats are designed to take less hits. They have the same risk. Even if Hunters are at more risk, that's where Forces and Rangers come in for support. It a balance. Hunters protect Forces/Rangers from not taking hits, by taking the hits. Forces/Rangers help protect the hunters by causing them to get hit less (SE effects from rangers) or by healing them when they do get hit (forces). It's a team effort, and since S-Rank is based on anyone dieing, it's every one's risk.

(3b.) Someone keeps saying that 1 person running after boxes/loot in a team of 6-players isn't going to kill the whole group. Yeah, that's probably true, it won't.... it'll hurt the team a little bit, but not much.... But the one thing you're forgetting is that it isn't just 1 person, it's the whole team.

If there's boxes on the left side and right side of the room, and creature in the middle. Two people might battle it out for boxes on the right, two on the left, and two might go kill creatures in the middle. The people who went after the boxes, get their loot, and turn around to kill the creatures, and all 6 people fight over the loot... Who gets screwed in this situation? The people doing the most work, the people who stayed behind and decided to fight... They have to battle it out for the loot with 4 people who already got loot, and who haven't done as much work. I don't see how anyone, on either side, can say that isn't fair.

If you say that, well, those two people should be aggressive and go after the loot... so now we have a situation where there's creatures and boxes, and no one is going after the creatures. Something bad is going to happen, and I don't think anyone needs me to tell them that.

(4b.) Simple solution actually, boot them.

Rare Items:
Order
C. Flaws:
(1c.) Last person in group doesn't get a rare until 6 rares drop
(2c.) People not doing their fair share of work, can get the same reward as people doing their share, or more than their share.

C. Solution:
(1c.) Put it on Random
(2c.) Same as 4a., boot people not helping the group as much as they should

Random:
D. Flaws:
(1d.) Some person might get more rares than someone else
(2d.) People not doing their fair share of work, can get the same or better reward as people doing their share, or more than their share.

D. Solution:
(1d.) Same as 3a., over time, and on the average, everyone will get an equal number of rares
(2d.) sames as 4a., 2d., boot them.

Give to Finder:
E. Flaws:
(1e.) Some person might get more rares than someone else
(2e.) People can be greedy

E. Solution:
(1e.) Unlike with in random... there is no on the average equalness. Someone who is more focused on loot than killing WILL get more rares on the average. The only solution to stop this is for the other party members to match their focus on loot. As pointed out in 3b., this is going to lead to trouble.

(2e.) Simple solution boot them, but by the time you notice they're greedy, they might have already got a bunch of rares.

In summary, the flaws of random/order can all be solved by being a team player/communicating (need before greed), over time with averaging, putting it on random for rares, and booting people who don't do their fair share of work or aren't a team player.

All the solutions to give to finder have other flaws. Booting greedy people can only happen after you find out they're greedy and have taken a bunch of items common and rares. Moving forces/rangers up closer to the front line, doesn't actually help them get more items (since hunters are closer yet), and causes them do do less work and endanger the team's s-rank. Only one person going after items doesn't endanger the group, but the group loses out on the rewards. Everyone going after items first is going to hurt the team, since everyone is ignoring the creatures.

In my opinion... yes everything has flaws, some worse, some better.... But having rares on random and common on in-order in combination with some of the above solutions weeds out almost all if not all the flaws, where as the solutions for "give to finder" still has flaws left over or new flaws from their solutions.

SonicTMP

Nov 4, 2006, 02:41 AM

hmmm which psu mob is equlivant of a horse? We need to stab it more... with bullets.

Wallin

Nov 4, 2006, 04:57 AM

Yes, perhaps all of the systems are equally crappy, but you also need to remember that "some are more equal than others". http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Your suggestions are well-intended, I'm sure, but they're also a joke. Telling Forces and Rangers to go melee for loot is like telling Hunters to restrict themselves to ranged weapons so that they never take damage because Forces refuse to heal them. Implausible solutions are just a poor defense for your argument. The moment people actually want their Forces to run in and loot instead of healing is the day they should shut down the game.

On 2006-11-03 20:00, daylight129 wrote:
But finders to me, is the only system, that when it comes to who deserves it, the power is put in to that of the player. This way whoever gets it didn't jip anyone but that of their own time to pick it up, and those who did not get it did not put forth the effort to.

Your opinion of the finders loot system condones the following apparently:

On 2006-11-03 19:19, PALRAPPYS wrote:
I agreed with everything you said SO much that it's not even funny. I totally understand your post. I love it. I really hate the random drops. I mean, I'm a force, and I like to be a force, so I try to grab all the items I can get. Honestly, I might even be an item hog! >_> After the hunters combo that enemy, I rush up to it quickly while they're finishing their attack, and steal the money! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif Ah, and I found some Omega Acid today, and it went to someone else. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif Despise that retarted random drop...

Palrappys pointed out very nicely how finders does not reward by performance, or perhaps the the type of performance you were referring to was unclear. You referred in your original post that you could work your butt off and your entire bar on a monster only to have it be wisked to someone else by random loot, yet here we have someone who doesn't even do anything but run in and steal the loot. If that's your definition of how to perform in the Finders system, then by all means, have fun with that.

Finders doesn't favor people who deserve it, I still don't understand how you come up with this which is why I said you are biased and favor hunters. What part of Forces and Rangers falls into this 'deserving' category? They could use up their entire PP bar to kill a monster solo and have a guy who did nothing rush in and steal the loot under the Finders system. In other words, the only 'performance' that people are doing is when they rush in to grab loot. Saying that Forces and Rangers are in the wrong and deserve nothing for playing the way that they were designed is sad. Again, being a loot whore is not a skill.

Most of you say that not going for the items makes games run smoother and faster, and it makes things more efficient...but tell me this. If you are honestly noticing a difference in your s rank times between your friend groups, and the really high level pug groups with 1 guy who goes and loots stuff, then you are being kind of nit picky.

The difference between finders and order/random is that people don't have to purposely devote time to stealing loot.

This is even about more than just rank times. If your group is focused only on the loot, you're much more likely to see someone drop dead, blowing the whole rank entirely. The fact that everyone on the team has to concentrate on loot above all else using the finders system means there's very something wrong.

Palrappys' post is an agreement to this. The Force isn't healing or attacking, it's waiting to steal the loot. Meanwhile if the team has another Force(s) or ranger(s), they're also doing the same thing. No one is watching their own health or anyone else's, all they care about is the loot.

Then the monster dies, right in the middle of 4 others, and everyone rushes in. Now one person actually got the loot, the rest are trying to figure out if they got it, the healers are in the middle of the mess and can't properly cast without choosing to run away first or take severe damage, meanwhile anyone who was not getting the loot is off somewhere else trying to solo and has no one to heal. This is just an endless spiral of chaos.

That doesn't even include the losers who intentionally run away in a new room to go loot every box while everyone else is doing something. I suppose that once again they 'deserve' it for their overly l33t whore skillz. It's not about being nit picky, it's just plain rude and disrespectful to the group. It's like someone going AFK in the middle of a fight just because they feel like they don't want to fight those particular monsters. Now if you were solo, it wouldn't matter. If you were grouped with people who didn't mind being your dogs and picking up table scraps, then Finders is fine. But in the context of a loot system that affects multiple people, this is about the team, and finders does not support the team, it supports the greedy individual. It clearly invokes competition among players, which is not a team trait. You may get people more active and you can also have fun with seeing who gets to whore the most, and if your game is to see how much you can steal from other people it's fine. But healers shouldn't have to focus on where the items or going to end up, or how they're going to pay for recharging their staves, they should just be able to focus on healing.

I would say that most of the players who complain about Finders loot that you tell to GTFO of the games aren't asking because they want to leech, but because they know they have better things to do in the party, like focusing on their job, and want to get a just reward for doing that instead of paying 300 on the recharge station and having to dig into the mission fund every time. All you're doing is driving the Forces and Rangers away, so be it. High levels won't be pretty when only trimates will make a difference.

Yes, Random or Order may promote laziness, but that's what the kick is for. The view of Finders that's out right now is that only the crafty and the greedy are rewarded, so who are you going to favor for that? The people who do the work to make the loot appear and complain they don't get anything, or the people who only do the work to make the loot disappear?

And BTW...

And wait, wait, wait, wait...wait! Where at all did I say that this was an issue of fairness?

My overall point being that all the systems are equally fair, those suggestions have nothing to do with it.

Your topic is "UnFAIR item distribution; all lies." It kind of has a LOT to do with fairness, or lack thereof, now doesn't it? LOL http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Wallin on 2006-11-04 02:04 ]

daylight129

Nov 4, 2006, 05:11 AM

On 2006-11-04 01:57, Wallin wrote:
Yes, perhaps all of the systems are equally crappy, but you also need to remember that "some are more equal than others". http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Your suggestions are well-intended, I'm sure, but they're also a joke. Telling Forces and Rangers to go melee for loot is like telling Hunters to restrict themselves to ranged weapons so that they never take damage because Forces refuse to heal them. Implausible solutions are just a poor defense for your argument. The moment people actually want their Forces to run in and loot instead of healing is the day they should shut down the game.

On 2006-11-03 20:00, daylight129 wrote:
But finders to me, is the only system, that when it comes to who deserves it, the power is put in to that of the player. This way whoever gets it didn't jip anyone but that of their own time to pick it up, and those who did not get it did not put forth the effort to.

Your opinion of the finders loot system condones the following apparently:

On 2006-11-03 19:19, PALRAPPYS wrote:
I agreed with everything you said SO much that it's not even funny. I totally understand your post. I love it. I really hate the random drops. I mean, I'm a force, and I like to be a force, so I try to grab all the items I can get. Honestly, I might even be an item hog! >_> After the hunters combo that enemy, I rush up to it quickly while they're finishing their attack, and steal the money! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif Ah, and I found some Omega Acid today, and it went to someone else. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif Despise that retarted random drop...

Palrappys pointed out very nicely how finders does not reward by performance, or perhaps the the type of performance you were referring to was unclear. You referred in your original post that you could work your butt off and your entire bar on a monster only to have it be wisked to someone else by random loot, yet here we have someone who doesn't even do anything but run in and steal the loot. If that's your definition of how to perform in the Finders system, then by all means, have fun with that.

Finders doesn't favor people who deserve it, I still don't understand how you come up with this which is why I said you are biased and favor hunters. What part of Forces and Rangers falls into this 'deserving' category? They could use up their entire PP bar to kill a monster solo and have a guy who did nothing rush in and steal the loot under the Finders system. In other words, the only 'performance' that people are doing is when they rush in to grab loot. Saying that Forces and Rangers are in the wrong and deserve nothing for playing the way that they were designed is sad. Again, being a loot whore is not a skill.

Most of you say that not going for the items makes games run smoother and faster, and it makes things more efficient...but tell me this. If you are honestly noticing a difference in your s rank times between your friend groups, and the really high level pug groups with 1 guy who goes and loots stuff, then you are being kind of nit picky.

The difference between finders and order/random is that people don't have to purposely devote time to stealing loot.

This is even about more than just rank times. If your group is focused only on the loot, you're much more likely to see someone drop dead, blowing the whole rank entirely. The fact that everyone on the team has to concentrate on loot above all else using the finders system means there's very something wrong.

Palrappys' post is an agreement to this. The Force isn't healing or attacking, it's waiting to steal the loot. Meanwhile if the team has another Force(s) or ranger(s), they're also doing the same thing. No one is watching their own health or anyone else's, all they care about is the loot.

Then the monster dies, right in the middle of 4 others, and everyone rushes in. Now one person actually got the loot, the rest are trying to figure out if they got it, the healers are in the middle of the mess and can't properly cast without choosing to run away first or take severe damage, meanwhile anyone who was not getting the loot is off somewhere else trying to solo and has no one to heal. This is just an endless spiral of chaos.

That doesn't even include the losers who intentionally run away in a new room to go loot every box while everyone else is doing something. I suppose that once again they 'deserve' it for their overly l33t whore skillz. It's not about being nit picky, it's just plain rude and disrespectful to the group. It's like someone going AFK in the middle of a fight just because they feel like they don't want to fight those particular monsters. Now if you were solo, it wouldn't matter. If you were grouped with people who didn't mind being your dogs and picking up table scraps, then Finders is fine. But in the context of a loot system that affects multiple people, this is about the team, and finders does not support the team, it supports the greedy individual. It clearly invokes competition among players, which is not a team trait. You may get people more active and you can also have fun with seeing who gets to whore the most, and if your game is to see how much you can steal from other people it's fine. But healers shouldn't have to focus on where the items or going to end up, or how they're going to pay for recharging their staves, they should just be able to focus on healing.

I would say that most of the players who complain about Finders loot that you tell to GTFO of the games aren't asking because they want to leech, but because they know they have better things to do in the party, like focusing on their job, and want to get a just reward for doing that instead of paying 300 on the recharge station and having to dig into the mission fund every time. All you're doing is driving the Forces and Rangers away, so be it. High levels won't be pretty when only trimates will make a difference.

Yes, Random or Order may promote laziness, but that's what the kick is for. The view of Finders that's out right now is that only the crafty and the greedy are rewarded, so who are you going to favor for that? The people who do the work to make the loot appear and complain they don't get anything, or the people who only do the work to make the loot disappear?

And BTW...

And wait, wait, wait, wait...wait! Where at all did I say that this was an issue of fairness?

My overall point being that all the systems are equally fair, those suggestions have nothing to do with it.

Your topic is "UnFAIR item distribution; all lies." It kind of has a LOT to do with fairness, or lack thereof, now doesn't it? LOL http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[ This Message was edited by: Wallin on 2006-11-04 02:04 ]

I never said that people who pick up loot in finders deserve it. I just said that atleast the person who picked it up put forth some kind of effort to get it, if not 0 effort that is ascertained to a random distribution.

Yes the word unfair is in the topic title, but then if you read one word later after the semi colon, it says "all lies".

Jesus christ, I didn't tell the forces and rangers to go melee it was a damn suggestion if they cannot deal with a finders game and won't leave.

Looting is done by simply pressing one button, there is no unwritten law that deprives players of their abilities while waiting for an enemy to die. A force who is good at looting doesn't run up next to a hunter killing an enemy, just standing there and watching not moving a finger. They will heal the hunter, cast a spell or whatever, just being in range of the dead enemy so they can nab the item. There is no such thing as ninja looting in this game, there is only a bad looter.

It's a farkin' game, and you act like it's so difficult to get near some of the enemies in this particular one. The monsters are all dumb as cheese, and you can outrun them like Roadrunner vs Franklin..I don't get what is so challenging about a force being pit up against a bunch of mental retards for the 3 seconds some lamer went to open some boxes.

I just want to say that yes, they may be disadvantaged to a certain extend but it's hardly anything worth bitching about and nothing that can't be compensated for. The situations you all present in favor of randomness are all so unreal and fake. It never happens like you say. Never in my entire playing of PSO or PSU when I ran off to open some boxes and say, and left a Force against 3-4, maybe even 5 enemies, did the FO go "OMG IM OVERWHELMED" and die. It's just not realistic to say that any of the parties abilities are hindered by people paying attention to loot. It is not realistic at all.

[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-04 02:25 ]

Sev

Nov 4, 2006, 09:27 AM

On 2006-11-04 02:11, daylight129 wrote

I never said that people who pick up loot in finders deserve it. I just said that atleast the person who picked it up put forth some kind of effort to get it, if not 0 effort that is ascertained to a random distribution.

Putting forth effort to take items isn't the kinda effort that I want in my party. I want more effort put forth for KILLING the monster and getting S Rank. Not just "Oh it's about to die, I better get ready to go in."

Yes the word unfair is in the topic title, but then if you read one word later after the semi colon, it says "all lies".

What are you trying to say here then? That Finder being unfair is all lies? Because if Finder IS unfair... Which just about everyone but a few people seem to agree that it isn't fari (Hunters who supposedly benefit from finder and other classes alike), the what in the hell does any of this matter? That just means that it's not all lies... It's just about the truth if we're going by the majority.

Jesus christ, I didn't tell the forces and rangers to go melee it was a damn suggestion if they cannot deal with a finders game and won't leave.

Frustration. You didn't tell them to melee, but you did tell them to get closer to the action which essentially puts them in the way of harm. Also, there was an actual suggestion for Rangers to melee. There doesn't need to be any suggestions, most of us agree that if they don't like the options, they should leave. Most of us also still agree, that the option isn't fair.

Looting is done by simply pressing one button, there is no unwritten law that deprives players of their abilities while waiting for an enemy to die. A force who is good at looting doesn't run up next to a hunter killing an enemy, just standing there and watching not moving a finger. They will heal the hunter, cast a spell or whatever, just being in range of the dead enemy so they can nab the item. There is no such thing as ninja looting in this game, there is only a bad looter.

If you have ESP or a good bit of information on the mob HP, the ability to count it, all while still healing those that need it and dealing damage yourself then go for it. Fact is, I don't know any of these people. Waiting for the enemy to die when there's another member fighting a monster somewhere else... Obviously isn't helping anything. It's all just theoretical, you can't assume that every situation will come out the same when monsters are dying. You never know who's in need of what support, nor does anyone really know when a monster is going to die unless they've been there the whole time. They just have a good idea sometimes, that's about it.

It's a farkin' game, and you act like it's so difficult to get near some of the enemies in this particular one. The monsters are all dumb as cheese, and you can outrun them like Roadrunner vs Franklin..I don't get what is so challenging about a force being pit up against a bunch of mental retards for the 3 seconds some lamer went to open some boxes.

It is a game, and you have an opinion, so why don't we just stop the nonsense now. If you don't know what the problem is, I don't know what to tell you. You're level 35, obviously you've played against A-Rank monsters. They're fast, and they hit hard, and Force's don't take too well to hits.

What's not to get here? That it doesn't happen all the time? GREAT! That's what we want, we want it to not happen. And we definately don't want it to happen while someones box whoring. But ya know what...

Just because you haven't experienced it... Doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

I just want to say that yes, they may be disadvantaged to a certain extend but it's hardly anything worth bitching about and nothing that can't be compensated for. The situations you all present in favor of randomness are all so unreal and fake. It never happens like you say. Never in my entire playing of PSO or PSU when I ran off to open some boxes and say, and left a Force against 3-4, maybe even 5 enemies, did the FO go "OMG IM OVERWHELMED" and die. It's just not realistic to say that any of the parties abilities are hindered by people paying attention to loot. It is not realistic at all.

It's disadvantaged all the same, that makes the system unfair. The parties abilities can be hindered by tons of things... That's the truth. SO WHY ADD IN ANOTHER!?

That's why people don't like Finder, it's not just about fairness and advantages.

Mystil

Nov 4, 2006, 10:13 AM

On 2006-11-03 23:41, SonicTMP wrote:
hmmm which psu mob is equlivant of a horse? We need to stab it more... with bullets.

Even though it's a Centurian, I'd say Chaos Bringer is close enough http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif.

To the OP, I now see what you see with this and the settings can be just as unfair as those who go into greed mode when it is give finder. But you just can't win.

Zalinian

Nov 4, 2006, 10:36 AM

I refuse to ever join a game that has any loot on give finder, and yes I am a hunter. Reason being is becuase when its set to give finder, I have to worry about grabbing loot as it drops if I ever want anything myself. Putting loot on give finder just distracts people. Everyone is so worried about getting loot rather then killing stuff. My loot settings are RANDOM for rares, and ORDER for non-rares. That way it dosen't matter who picks it up, and people can focus on killing/healing, and not looting.

physic

Nov 4, 2006, 11:23 AM

truth is, hunter was made to be close range, ranger is meant to be ranged, fo is meant to have many tasks.
The idea that finder is a reward for being aggressive is incorrect, if you play ranger you know rifle, one of the more high powered weapons with higher chance of inflicting a stronger effect, is best used in first person mode, which means you will be zoomed out firing shots an unable to move,
fo has to concentrate on its postioning to be effective, there is no auto lock or auto aim for fo, they have to find the spells proper range and get in the right position to be effective, this is true for every spell whether dmg or heal.
point is playing agrresive for a fo and a ra, dont mean being next to the enemy, and it doesnt help you beat the level faster,
also consider you can have 1 person get the boxes while you go around killing stuff to faster finish the level when your not on finder.
Finder maybe something you like, or find fun, but its not something that benifits team play. This much is obvious. I have been in finder because sometimes i solo and forget to put a pass, i can tell you most ra or fo cant even compare.
Also this idea that you take more risk so deserve the items, is bull in this game there is no loss personally for dying, you risk nothing except the time and rank of everyone in your party by dying. You waste moon atomizers and Srank rewards. You going off by yourself isnt a danger to the 5 maybe, but your risking blowing thier whole game.

You can do what ya want, but im sure everyone knows that their is no native benifit to give finder, the one guy talking about some ideal situation of speedyness, doesnt consider, Ideally when you super on point, you may send 3 people one way and 3 people the other, or send a fo to pick up some items. Sure it can be efficent, but it could be efficient to simply have your mono and di on your charachter, and deal with loot after mission ends, or discuss who needs what long term after.

Miphesto

Nov 4, 2006, 11:26 AM

you know what, rangers and techers have a HIGHER chance than hunters in this game now, because they can stop shooting alot faster than you can stop swinging a sword....i've played up to job lvl 6 hunter, and now i'm job lvl 2 ranger and i can tell you that rangers and forces have a better chance at grabbing shit than a hunter does

Mitz

Nov 4, 2006, 11:48 AM

On 2006-11-02 23:49, Apathy wrote:

Flunky wrote:

(Warning: biased opinion follows) I like it when the party can actually focus on the combat until things are resolved instead of always keeping one eye open to snatch up the precious loots. Thus I don't do 'give finder'. In the parties I join everyone seems to be working hard, and thus all deserve a chance at loot, rare or not. If I'm in a party where incompetence is rampant, I'll work with a different group.

This I agree with, a team effort, and equal chance to get a piece of pie. I dont like overtly greedy people and sore losers. Im not going to penalize a Force who is healing over a hunter who is swinging thier sword. It takes a team to survive, and a team to get S rank. I thank the powers that be we have these options. I find no fault in them. If you want to play in a Dog-eat-dog party... It is as simple as making one yourself.

daylight129:

Then please try to keep this topic clean of "I don't get it" posts. They are just a tad meaningless. No offense meant, I just want a good solid reason what's more fair about random/turns?

I hope that was more productive... again please forgive me.

[ This Message was edited by: Apathy on 2006-11-02 23:54 ]

You do not have to apologise for his insulting behviour.

Jasam

Nov 4, 2006, 11:58 AM

On 2006-11-03 23:38, Gavin_King wrote:
Long, but the original poster wants some constructive discussion and arguements about the flaws and solutions for the loot systems.

Normal Items:

A. Random/order:
Flaws:
(1a.) Mates are given to non-hunters,
(2a.) Class-specific items are given to wrong class,
(3a.) Bigger money drops can be constantly given to one person unfairly
(4a.) People not doing their fair share of work, are given the same reward as people doing their share, or more than their share.
(5a.) Takes a competitive edge away from the game

A. Soultions/Arguments:
(1a.) People need mates other than just for healing. Rangers/Forces need them for selling, for feeding, and for emergencies. You might say that hunters need them for the same reasons, plus need them for healing, but if the Forces are doing their job with heals, or rangers doing their job with status effects, you won't. If they're not doing their job, you boot them, if you don't have one in your group, then all the mates are going to a hunter. In a co-operative game, like PSU, if you're low on mates, because you find you're using them... ask for some. I would be shocked if a ranger/force in the group didn't give you some.

(2a.) Kind of same as last point of 1.... Ask for them. Need before greed is a general rule no matter what item distribution you use. If a weapon dropped and you need it, no matter random/order/flaw, if someone else, who isn't going to use it, got it, ask for it, and they will drop it. If they don't, then they are a greedy person, i.e. not a team player, and should be booted.

(3a.) Same thing can happen no matter what item distribution happens. Even still, it's random... Over the course of playing a mission, it should be roughly even. Sure it will deviate a little, but on the average, it will be equal by person.

(4a.) If they're not doing their fair share of work, boot them. Simple as that.

(5a.) It's a team game... you're on the same team.... it's cooperative, not competitive. There's still competition, but it's in how well you help the group, and being the best team member you can. People can take pride in that. I don't see how people can take pride in running after loot instead of helping out their team. Taking the competitive edge away from the game, improves the cooperative side of the game, since people will be working as a team, and not going after individual loot.

Give to finder:
B. Flaws/arguments:
(1b.) Hunters have an advantage to getting loot, since they're on the front line.
(2b.) Hunters deserve more loot since they're at more risk
(3b.) Players focus on loot over exp, going through the mission fast and efficiently, and getting S-Rank
(4b.) People can be greedy

B. Solution/Arguments:
(1b.) Solution would be for Rangers/Forces to be closer to the front line... But I don't think anyone has said they should be as close to the action as a hunter is. A hunter is face to face, someone said that obviously forces/rangers shouldn't be "stupidly close.".... So.... even if Rangers/forces play closer, the hunters are even more closer, and still have that advantage.

(2b.) How are they at more risk? They have more health, and more defense than any other class. So they take a lot of hits, but have stats to take a lot of hits. Force/Rangers take less hits, but their stats are designed to take less hits. They have the same risk. Even if Hunters are at more risk, that's where Forces and Rangers come in for support. It a balance. Hunters protect Forces/Rangers from not taking hits, by taking the hits. Forces/Rangers help protect the hunters by causing them to get hit less (SE effects from rangers) or by healing them when they do get hit (forces). It's a team effort, and since S-Rank is based on anyone dieing, it's every one's risk.

(3b.) Someone keeps saying that 1 person running after boxes/loot in a team of 6-players isn't going to kill the whole group. Yeah, that's probably true, it won't.... it'll hurt the team a little bit, but not much.... But the one thing you're forgetting is that it isn't just 1 person, it's the whole team.

If there's boxes on the left side and right side of the room, and creature in the middle. Two people might battle it out for boxes on the right, two on the left, and two might go kill creatures in the middle. The people who went after the boxes, get their loot, and turn around to kill the creatures, and all 6 people fight over the loot... Who gets screwed in this situation? The people doing the most work, the people who stayed behind and decided to fight... They have to battle it out for the loot with 4 people who already got loot, and who haven't done as much work. I don't see how anyone, on either side, can say that isn't fair.

If you say that, well, those two people should be aggressive and go after the loot... so now we have a situation where there's creatures and boxes, and no one is going after the creatures. Something bad is going to happen, and I don't think anyone needs me to tell them that.

(4b.) Simple solution actually, boot them.

Rare Items:
Order
C. Flaws:
(1c.) Last person in group doesn't get a rare until 6 rares drop
(2c.) People not doing their fair share of work, can get the same reward as people doing their share, or more than their share.

C. Solution:
(1c.) Put it on Random
(2c.) Same as 4a., boot people not helping the group as much as they should

Random:
D. Flaws:
(1d.) Some person might get more rares than someone else
(2d.) People not doing their fair share of work, can get the same or better reward as people doing their share, or more than their share.

D. Solution:
(1d.) Same as 3a., over time, and on the average, everyone will get an equal number of rares
(2d.) sames as 4a., 2d., boot them.

Give to Finder:
E. Flaws:
(1e.) Some person might get more rares than someone else
(2e.) People can be greedy

E. Solution:
(1e.) Unlike with in random... there is no on the average equalness. Someone who is more focused on loot than killing WILL get more rares on the average. The only solution to stop this is for the other party members to match their focus on loot. As pointed out in 3b., this is going to lead to trouble.

(2e.) Simple solution boot them, but by the time you notice they're greedy, they might have already got a bunch of rares.

In summary, the flaws of random/order can all be solved by being a team player/communicating (need before greed), over time with averaging, putting it on random for rares, and booting people who don't do their fair share of work or aren't a team player.

All the solutions to give to finder have other flaws. Booting greedy people can only happen after you find out they're greedy and have taken a bunch of items common and rares. Moving forces/rangers up closer to the front line, doesn't actually help them get more items (since hunters are closer yet), and causes them do do less work and endanger the team's s-rank. Only one person going after items doesn't endanger the group, but the group loses out on the rewards. Everyone going after items first is going to hurt the team, since everyone is ignoring the creatures.

In my opinion... yes everything has flaws, some worse, some better.... But having rares on random and common on in-order in combination with some of the above solutions weeds out almost all if not all the flaws, where as the solutions for "give to finder" still has flaws left over or new flaws from their solutions.

This post should of ended almost everything already. So far the only people I have seen trying to arguee for finders compared too the other two are either

a) Greedy
b) Greedy Hunters
c) Hunters
d) Only playing with a set group of friends who perfer to share loot afterwards

I myself have a habit of being greedy when playing. But I still will not justify finders as anywhere near correct compared to the order/random setup.

In truth the only question about which is best for encouraging a good party and fair distrabution, should be between the random/random and ordered/random setup.