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View Full Version : Ranger: Dual Handgun vs. Rifle damage



Nestahima
Nov 7, 2006, 10:46 AM
I'd really, really, really, really, really, really, like to make a Newman Guntecher that specializes in dual pistols.

However, I have a 11 Newman Ranger with the 2k pistols grinded to 4, and a 10 Cast Ranger with the 2k rifle grinded to 6.

The Newman Ranger's pistols hit for around 25 per hit -- 50 total.

The Cast Ranger's Rifle hits for about 95 a shot.

This seems fairly unbalanced to me. AmI doing something wrong? I'd love to use the Newman Ranger with dual pistols, but if the damage is going to be horrible, I don't want that as my main character.

DrewSeleski
Nov 7, 2006, 10:49 AM
To be honest if you are going to use ranged weapons for damage you will be sorely dissapointed.

Nestahima
Nov 7, 2006, 10:51 AM
Not really. It might take up a little bit of PP, but I'm satisfied with my Rifles damage in comparison to my level 8 Hunter's. Sure, my Force's Diga hits for about 220 compared to the Rifle's 95, but I can easily shoot off two to three Rifle shots in the time it takes for that one Diga to hit. As long as I switch between weapons, I also never run out of PP. It is also much easier to hit with a Rifle shot (or Dual Handgun shot) than a spell on a single small target.

Ryven
Nov 7, 2006, 10:52 AM
It's all about the bullets, to be quite frank. With dual pistols you get 2 shots to inflict whatever status effect you have on the weapon, while with a Rifle, only one shot per attack. The Rifle's ATP is going to be significantly higher, but when I play as Ranger I always carry around my Dual Pistols to freeze everything in sight before I open up on them with the Rifle.

Nestahima
Nov 7, 2006, 10:55 AM
Yeah, I realized that the Dual Pistols were great at laying down status effects, but how is a Guntecher supposed to do damage if they only get S-Rank in Dual Handgun/Handguns?


EDIT: I just realized this.

Guntecher
Unique trait - Only class with S rank on Dual Pistols, Crossbows, and Machine Guns.
Photon Art Distribution - Level 10 Weapon Skills, Level 30 Bullets, Level 10 Techniques
Requirements - Job Level 5 Ranger, Job Level 3 Force

If they can only do Techs up to level 10, do you think I would be killing my potential if I made a CAST Guntecher?


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Nestahima on 2006-11-07 07:58 ]</font>

JamesKilton
Nov 7, 2006, 10:55 AM
No, Drew, I'm afraid your wrong. Rangers will not throw out OMGBIGNUMBERS damage, but that doesn't mean we DON'T do damage.

Rate of Fire and Damage over Time are the issue here. Besides the fact that you've got severely unfair comparison as well.

1) CAST have more ATP than Newman
2) Rifle is grinded +2 more than the pistols. That's HUGE.

Give your CAST +6 dualies and compare damage over time again. Then make your decision.

This is all besides the fact that Rangers are the masters of CC and Status effects, so you need to keep all of that in mind too.

JamesKilton
Nov 7, 2006, 10:59 AM
Guntechers look to be the best support class in the game. You can heal, dispell SEs, give out SEs, along with both tech and bullet damage on the side. You're not gonna be a damage powerhouse, but you'll be able to hold your own.

This game is not solely about damage...

klunka
Nov 7, 2006, 11:00 AM
On 2006-11-07 07:55, Nestahima wrote:
Yeah, I realized that the Dual Pistols were great at laying down status effects, but how is a Guntecher supposed to do damage if they only get S-Rank in Dual Handgun/Handguns?



Your comparison is moot because it's Cast vs Newman. These two classes will never, EVER match up in any category. Buy straight up 2k meseta twins and rifle. Put them no the same character. Use the same bullets or none at all. Hit the same enemy. Yes, the rifle will always be more, but not by the margin you're coming to. The twins make up for it with it's higher chance to cause status effects. Plus they're mobile weapons. Which is a HUGE bonus if you ask me. At the same time however, you can get a lot more shots off with the rifle.

In the end, I honestly do see it as a push.

Nestahima
Nov 7, 2006, 11:05 AM
All right, I understand that but back to my other question.

I just realized this.

Guntecher
Unique trait - Only class with S rank on Dual Pistols, Crossbows, and Machine Guns.
Photon Art Distribution - Level 10 Weapon Skills, Level 30 Bullets, Level 10 Techniques
Requirements - Job Level 5 Ranger, Job Level 3 Force

If they can only do Techs up to level 10, do you think I would be killing my potential if I made a CAST Guntecher?

klunka
Nov 7, 2006, 11:14 AM
I have no answer for you there. I've been debating Wartecher vs Guntecher (http://pso-world.com/viewtopic.php?topic=125777&forum=22&9) for weeks now for my Human (who's currently 5 hu, 5 ra, 5 fo). What we need to know, which we currently cannot, is will the 20+ bullet PAs make up for the absolutely miserable lvl 10 techs. You can heal yes, but at higher lvls I doubt anyone will even notice it with your pitiful healing. The only thing your techs will really be good for is reverser. Though we'll see how the support techniques work when they're released.

Nestahima
Nov 7, 2006, 11:17 AM
Well as a Guntecher and a Wartecher I think you'd be focusing on the buffing techniques for yourself and other party members rather than straight healing.

Sure you'd be able to drop a heal or two, but I don't think people would BRING you for healing.

klunka
Nov 7, 2006, 11:20 AM
I can't speak for this game, but having a lvl 200 HUmar in PSO. My buffs and debuffs were so pathetic at their max they weren't even worth wasting the TP to cast. And obviously I'll be much more efficient as a War/Guntecher spamming skills/bullets instead of offensive spells. We'll just have to wait and see I guess.

DrewSeleski
Nov 7, 2006, 11:27 AM
On 2006-11-07 07:55, JamesKilton wrote:
No, Drew, I'm afraid your wrong. Rangers will not throw out OMGBIGNUMBERS damage, but that doesn't mean we DON'T do damage.

Rate of Fire and Damage over Time are the issue here. Besides the fact that you've got severely unfair comparison as well.

1) CAST have more ATP than Newman
2) Rifle is grinded +2 more than the pistols. That's HUGE.

Give your CAST +6 dualies and compare damage over time again. Then make your decision.

This is all besides the fact that Rangers are the masters of CC and Status effects, so you need to keep all of that in mind too.


Basically my point was that status effects are much MUCH more important than damage and therefore what you should be worried about. I would say they do about the same damage as forces and quite a bit less than hunters. Not saying they are bad, just that you should be in it for status effects and not damage.

KazuKun
Nov 7, 2006, 12:22 PM
From my experience (again, it might have to do with the fact that I'm a Cast), the Dual Handguns are nearly as good as my rifle (and my Dual Handguns are the Arb Oba, the 3-star C-rank one, while my rifle is the Vullseye, the 5-star B-rank GRM rifle). I hit for about 120 ~ 145 on an enemy with my rifle, and about...90 ~ 120 -ish on my Dual Handguns on the same enemy. Then again, I have bullets equipped (ice on rifle and earth on dual handguns), so that might add to it. But still...I believe that Dual Handguns ARE on par with the rifle. Only major issue with it is PP. :



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: KazuKun on 2006-11-07 09:24 ]</font>

Genobee
Nov 7, 2006, 12:31 PM
Personaly I like dualies cause it feels liek the rifle always run out of ammo on me adn the duallies seem like they never do.

Nestahima
Nov 7, 2006, 12:31 PM
Thanks. My question is still however: Would a CAST Guntecher be a horrible idea?

Genobee
Nov 7, 2006, 12:35 PM
No becasue it will be just the oppiste of the new man, the cast sucks with techs but rules with guns, the newman sux with guns and the new rules with techs, so it comes down to what you like better, do you like guns or techs. I'm sure the damage dealing will even out.

Sitka
Nov 7, 2006, 12:37 PM
Another way of looking at it:

I do like the dual handgun setup with ferocious mobs like the hoppers and baby dinos that chase you into the hallways and nip at you. With dual handguns, you can dance around and freeze multiples pretty easily and take out the mob quicker than with a rifle, at least imho.

The rifle, however, is my weapon of choice for powerful single enemies, either buffed versions or tank enemies and of course it is THE weapon for the bosses.

meh

Ranger cast - I'm loving it.

KazuKun
Nov 7, 2006, 12:37 PM
I don't think it'd be a horrible idea, since your guns will do a lot more damage than say...a Newman Guntecher. Problem would be is that it'd be much harder for you to use any Techniques, with the low TP and whatnot. My advice to you is choose whichever you would like to be more of: a damage/status-dealer with low technique capabilities (CAST), or a status-dealer with high technique abilities to support? Your choice.

Edit: Genobee has a good point. You can still deal damage with spells after your guns are out of PP on the Newman and still deal a good amount of damage.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: KazuKun on 2006-11-07 09:38 ]</font>

DrewSeleski
Nov 7, 2006, 12:41 PM
Cast guntecher would probably be the best kind in my opinion. The techs won't be useful at 10 for anything but support anyways and those work well regardless of your tp stat. The fact that it's a cast would help make up for the stat loses it would get by being guntecher instead of fortegunner.
edit: Also wanted to add that you'll probably just want one uh.. rod? Whichever one of the force weapons is the big one. Just one of it and the rest ranged weapons.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DrewSeleski on 2006-11-07 09:44 ]</font>

KazuKun
Nov 7, 2006, 12:59 PM
I'd say maybe a rod and a wand, to hold all four of the buffs on the rod, and spells like resta or reverser on the wand. Besides, if you have the wand, you can equip something like a machine gun or a crossbow (whenever those come out) in the other hand. That way, you can take advantage of the S-rank machine guns and crossbows. And even handguns, if you like.

Edit: Wands, not canes. Bleh.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: KazuKun on 2006-11-07 10:00 ]</font>

DrewSeleski
Nov 7, 2006, 01:05 PM
Ah, I forgot about the buffs since we don't have them yet. Silly me :o

DMG
Nov 7, 2006, 01:10 PM
I'd say maybe a rod and a wand, to hold all four of the buffs on the rod

Just to clarify, Guntechers can't use rods.

klunka
Nov 7, 2006, 01:11 PM
I'm going to go opposite as most here and say Newman would be better. They have the best stats for the force in you, and if I remember correctly their ATA certainly isn't anything to laugh at. Where the cast's force stats are certainly laughable.

IceBeam
Nov 7, 2006, 01:20 PM
rangers do good damage... i do a average of 210-260 per rifle blast on A class levels its all about know the weakness and good weps.. down with shooter up with vullseye( i carry 4 & and b rank Machineguns(whateva) and a B rank D Pistols

Reeve
Nov 7, 2006, 01:35 PM
On 2006-11-07 10:11, klunka wrote:
I'm going to go opposite as most here and say Newman would be better. They have the best stats for the force in you, and if I remember correctly their ATA certainly isn't anything to laugh at. Where the cast's force stats are certainly laughable.



yet its pretty much a fact that a guntecher wont be using techs for damage cos when they only get up to level 10 they will just plain suck and as most people are saying they will only use the occasional resta/reverser and hopefully buff/debuff techs when they come out

most of the damage and general use will come from the gun side of things and cast excells in this over any other class

your right in saying a newman has good accuracy but it has no atp to back it up(cast has more anyway) and you want to be doing atleast reasonable damage plus newmans cant take hits either not like you will get hit much as a ranger but every little helps, as far as i see it there is only one sensible option for guntecher if you're that worried about effectiveness and that is a cast

klunka
Nov 7, 2006, 01:43 PM
On 2006-11-07 10:35, Reeve wrote:

yet its pretty much a fact that a guntecher wont be using techs for damage cos when they only get up to level 10 they will just plain suck and as most people are saying they will only use the occasional resta/reverser and hopefully buff/debuff techs when they come out

most of the damage and general use will come from the gun side of things and cast excells in this over any other class

your right in saying a newman has good accuracy but it has no atp to back it up(cast has more anyway) and you want to be doing atleast reasonable damage plus newmans cant take hits either not like you will get hit much as a ranger but every little helps, as far as i see it there is only one sensible option for guntecher if you're that worried about effectiveness and that is a cast



See, since the techs only go to 10, you'll need that extra bit of technique to make them useful at all. What good is an occasional lvl 10 resta going to do with almost no technique points to back it up? might as well be using monomates.

Also, I think it's a forgone conclusion guntecher is NOT the class you should go if you want large damage numbers. Guntecher is a support class through and through from what we know now.

I also definitely disagree with the cast being the only viable option for a guntecher. Being a Cast Guntecher is essentially just a Fortegunner who specializes in different guns.

Humans are perfectly suited for almost every hyrbid class (except figunner). Newman would make the best support Guntecher around. As beast goes ... I just don't see their ATA good enough for anything involving Ranger classes.

BloodDragoon
Nov 7, 2006, 01:50 PM
Rifles are currently the highest damage per hit ratio gun in the game and the longest range. However you're character stops moving if you fire while trying to strafe with it. Dual Handguns fire twice as fast for less damage but allow full strafing movement while firing.

Itsuki
Nov 7, 2006, 01:51 PM
Its a fact, guntechers have one of the lowest damage outputs in the game. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing. But comparing the damage potential of a guntecher is like asking "I wonder what has more killing potentiall.. the nerf bat or the nerf ball".

Also, newman guntecher techs aren't quite that bad. I still deal more damage in places like Hakura Temple with my techs than I do with my guns. So infact, I tend to use techs more than shooting in those places. They're far from useless, they're just not useful.

BUT, you have to remember, resta is based on TAP. I cast guntecher won't be able to heal effectively unless he has the biggest wands immaginable. My newman guntecher can barely resta. The people around me have 1000+ hp, the FFs can even break 2000 I think. And yet as a newman guntecher, I only heal for maybe 400.

Also, in early levels, rifles tend to deal more than dualies. GRM rifles just have such huge atp. Youmei on the other hand does more comparable damage. On the other hand, you have to consider, that as your level goes up, your atp goes up. And the atp of your weapons isn't going to go up much. This means that as time goes on, dualies start dealing more damage than rifles fast.

Genobee
Nov 7, 2006, 01:57 PM
but you guy act like ATA is a big deal, I'm a beast hunter and we have the worst ata, I just equip a tenora pistol and I maybe miss like once out of 20 rounds. SO imagine a Guntecher no matter what race will be fine with ATA

klunka
Nov 7, 2006, 02:06 PM
On 2006-11-07 10:57, Genobee wrote:
but you guy act like ATA is a big deal, I'm a beast hunter and we have the worst ata, I just equip a tenora pistol and I maybe miss like once out of 20 rounds. SO imagine a Guntecher no matter what race will be fine with ATA



I just assume Beasts missed more often than that. A pistol IS on the higher end of accurate guns however.

Just curious, have you ever gotten to equip a shotgun or twin handguns? I'm interested to know how often a Beast would hit with them

AfroSamurai
Nov 7, 2006, 02:08 PM
Rifles seem to go through pp about twice as fast as Twin Handguns aswell, from what I've seen so far anyways. Not sure why that is.

Genobee
Nov 7, 2006, 02:12 PM
On 2006-11-07 11:06, klunka wrote:

On 2006-11-07 10:57, Genobee wrote:
but you guy act like ATA is a big deal, I'm a beast hunter and we have the worst ata, I just equip a tenora pistol and I maybe miss like once out of 20 rounds. SO imagine a Guntecher no matter what race will be fine with ATA



I just assume Beasts missed more often than that. A pistol IS on the higher end of accurate guns however.

Just curious, have you ever gotten to equip a shotgun or twin handguns? I'm interested to know how often a Beast would hit with them



it's realy not, so much stuff gives you a ATA bonus, if you are realy worried about missing use Tenora high damage , high accuracy crap on PP but once you get into B grade weapons I don't think PP on wepaons realy matters anymore,

KazuKun
Nov 7, 2006, 02:15 PM
On 2006-11-07 10:10, DMG wrote:

I'd say maybe a rod and a wand, to hold all four of the buffs on the rod

Just to clarify, Guntechers can't use rods.



Ah, my apologies. I didn't realize that. I guess that would mean three wands? Youch.

Two buffs on two wands, and resta/reverser on another?

Itsuki
Nov 7, 2006, 03:15 PM
In S-rank and even some A-ranks as a newman guntecher, I still have some issues landing hits on certain monsters. For example, Linear Line S gives me a bit of trouble. I don't even think I hit 25% with shotguns in there, and I'm 10 levels over the requirement for the area. Certain monsters in endrum plant I have trouble with (mainly bugs, which everyone has trouble with, but even the mechs evade quite a bit).

I think too many people are basing their ideas of need of accuracy on C rank and B rank, where its least needed, and the beast lack of ATA is still very small. As levels get higher, beasts' lack of ATA gets bigger. 40% less ATA when you only have 100 isn't quite as noticable as 40% less ata when you have 300.