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View Full Version : So...what's the point of playing a Force again?



Shazbot
Nov 12, 2006, 02:00 PM
I was really hoping the addition of buffs/debuffs would make a difference but, they've actually made being a Force more difficult. As everyone has probably now noticed, raising their levels only increases duration. Wanna know by how much? About 40 seconds extra for level 11. Wow, huh? Oh! Wait, wait. Now you wanna know what it's like for level 21, right? ...Add 1 more minute then. In case this actually sounds good to you I should tell you that from level 1 to 10 there will be no change in your buffs. Same goes for 12-20. However, the number of castings to raise 1% becomes phenominal. For "Deband"
level 15 it was about 5 casts/1%. For level 21 it was 7 casts/1%. Do the math. So while all the hunters and rangers are out actually killing stuff, earning money/exp/items, and leveling their new newly available skills as they go, Forces wanting to flesh out their support ability get to spend their time next to a PP cube casting the same tech 500 times (which, btw, isn't cheap) in order to gain a single tech level that will be no stronger or different than the previous level or the next. And all just to give your teamates a longer lasting "Deband" which is apparently so weak that most can't even be bothered to stop for one.

I've done more runs of relics, De Ragen, Temple, and Onma Goug than I want to admit and I've noticed patterns in the way people are playing. Every massive killing machine team I've ever joined has been made of hunters and rangers--usually Figunners. Once a game starts to get too many Forces in it (more than one in my experience) people start coming up with reasons to leave at the end of the mission. I don't blame them for leaving either. I've noticed it too b/c when the last hunter/ranger in the team leaves, and it's just about 3 or 4 Forces the next round of New Deaz relics (or anywhere) is gonna be everybody trying to run around the monsters while adjusting to aim their magic properly--which don't actually aim that well to begin with (Ra-techs, for example). Add to this that a group of Forces can do shit-all to the bosses in the game because all the bosses either fly (Ranger time!) or have multiple target points (Hunter time!) which can not be hit using spells.

Before you respond, Yes, I'm complaining. What's your point? Complaining is what people do when something isn't right. And, No, I don't care about how special/different/independant/amazing/skilled you are with your Force. Yeah you're good, whatever. The point is there's 10,000 other people out there half as good as you are who are playing a hunter or ranger, killing harder enemies faster and with greater ease all the while being regularly provided with a much more varied and available choice of weaponry compared to your red, yellow, and blue blobs of shooting color. I don't hate your Force, but I'm starting to hate mine for simply not being of comparable worth to the other jobs.

Wallin
Nov 12, 2006, 02:03 PM
I'm assuming you're playing the Japanese servers or something because we don't actually have the buffs on the American servers, and therefore no one here can really give you a decent answer because most of us wouldn't know squat about buffs or buff timers or that most people play Figunners since we don't have expert classes either...

Xbob
Nov 12, 2006, 02:04 PM
Fotecher + Resta = Required for correct pwnage output. Any other class using resta is gimped.

Neith
Nov 12, 2006, 02:08 PM
Damage and support, focusing on support in multiplayer games.

No other class hits 100 damage at Level 1 http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_lol.gif , and Resta is a godsend to Hunters. If there's no Forces, being a Hunter in some places would suck hard.

DizzyDi
Nov 12, 2006, 02:09 PM
Well when it comes to buffs and debuffs, you know you don't HAVE to spend all day next to a cube. How about you just level them the normal way: CASTING THEM ON PEOPLE! Don't be so obsessed over leveling the buffs and just let the levels come naturally.
And Bob had a great point. Its damn hard doing missions without a force to heal.

Xbob
Nov 12, 2006, 02:10 PM
I find if you think too hard and analyze about all the little things too much, you come to enjoy things far less, if at all. Be happy! You're playing PSU!

FenixStryk
Nov 12, 2006, 02:11 PM
Maybe you didn't notice, but you have the strongest nukes AND your spells never hit for 0, unlike my guns and blades. Not to mention Resta. Learn to aim and you're the best class in the game!

PaladinRPG
Nov 12, 2006, 02:13 PM
I would almost never consider doing any high rank runs without a Force... it's simply suicidal, or at least, kiss all your mates goodbye.

Randomness
Nov 12, 2006, 02:27 PM
He'd probably suggest leveling Resta the same way. Support techs level fine from use.

Genobee
Nov 12, 2006, 02:44 PM
lol the people who complain about being a force oviously never ran grove.

ThatOneGuy
Nov 12, 2006, 02:47 PM
Uh, in case you hadn't noticed, higher TP stat = increased potentcy of spells.... much like resta recovers more HP as you level it, AND as you get a better wand to put it on.... So the support spells only become more potent when you put them on a better staff? Am I the only one who doesn't see anything wrong with that?

entropyboy
Nov 12, 2006, 02:51 PM
my suggestion: stop playing force and leave it to the people who want to play it

Sanjuro-san
Nov 12, 2006, 02:57 PM
On 2006-11-12 11:51, entropyboy wrote:
my suggestion: stop playing force and leave it to the people who want to play it



Word.

BydoEmpire
Nov 12, 2006, 03:47 PM
I didn't play a force much on PSO for DC & GC. I finally made one as my last character on the Cube a Force, but only went to level 30. So when I started PSU I was determined to make a kick-butt Force and stick with it. What's satisfying about them (and will be even more so when more powerful technics are available) is taking out an entire room of enemies with one massive Radiga blast. That's fun. I also like having Resta and Reverser available at any time.

Zalana
Nov 12, 2006, 04:15 PM
On 2006-11-12 11:44, Genobee wrote:
lol the people who complain about being a force oviously never ran grove.



I got burnt by the robots! Reverser gogogo!

Mystil
Nov 12, 2006, 06:17 PM
Yes Neudaiz is the best place for FOburn groups.

While your concern for the buffs not getting stronger with leveling up is appreciated - it is just as appreciated when you use them period. ATK UP and DEF UP helps a WHOLE lot, even if it's just a 3% increase! Btw we do have the buffs on the american version just not in tech form.

HolyCecil
Nov 12, 2006, 10:10 PM
I find if you think too hard and analyze about all the little things too much, you come to enjoy things far less, if at all. Be happy! You're playing PSU!
_________________

Correct.

Muffin
Nov 12, 2006, 10:39 PM
I think many people who play Forces tend to become dazzled by Hunters, not because of their actual damage, but because of their bravado. They run in, attack rapidly with numbers flying, and blast the enemies across the room. It looks like they're slaughtering the entire area before their very eyes. However, the reality is that Forces do more damage than Hunters do. It's not flashy, but a single hit of 600-800 damage or 3 enemies hit for 400 outweighs 5 hits doing 50 each or 3 for 150.

As for people leaving because too many Forces join...I think you're imagining things. ^.^; I've played quite extensively as well and this sure as heck has never happened. What *has* happened often though is people cheering when a Force joins due to their needed abilities. And the games I've been a part of consisting of all Forces has always cleaned house.

The shifta/deband stuff I'm not familiar with, as I do not play the Japanese version, but it seems like you're crying over spilled milk. Even if what you say is true and the time increases aren't that big of a deal, so what? Shifta and deband are not the sole reason to play a Force, it's just a bit more icing on the cake.


Purun~~

ViciousXUSMC
Nov 12, 2006, 11:16 PM
Hmm, going from what you said about how the shifta/deband not gaining power from levels but only duration increase from its level you can bet that its the same power level as the buff items. If thats the case than thats great as I use them once in a while and they do give a pretty big boost in power. So if lvl 1 s/d is as strong as that than so be it.

However one thing that doesnt make much sence is that at 11 and 21 the range doesnt increase. Following the pattern of what seems like every spell so far they get bigger at those levels and support spells always get a range increase. So unfortunatly I cant take your word as the truth untill more people agree or I see it for myself.

Ceresa
Nov 12, 2006, 11:25 PM
Lvl 1 is 12% stat increase, 2 minute duration, Lvl 11 is 15% boost, 3 min duration and increased range, focusing on damu so I don't have the numbers for lvl 21 buffs yet.

3% of my 1700 tp is 51...going from 8star rod to 9star rod was 47 tap and cost me nearly 300k per rod.

Buffs look pretty good to me.

HolyCecil
Nov 12, 2006, 11:33 PM
Forces suck. I don't see the point of getting healed, reversed, and having someone help me kill things much quicker.

<--former force level 25. Playing hunter for the simple need to be in the fray and pick up a weapon or two. Forces are an amazing class. It was hard to put it down due to this fact, however, I fell back on my old love: fun melee classes.

Play what you want to play, don't be so hardcore on the stats. SEGA didn't release this game with the ultimate secret that one player would soon find: Forces suck and everyone that plays them is SCREWED! Sucks to be you!

Remedy
Nov 13, 2006, 12:18 AM
On 2006-11-12 11:51, entropyboy wrote:
my suggestion: stop playing force and leave it to the people who want to play it

Quoted for unspeakable amounts of truth.

ryuartyi
Nov 13, 2006, 12:29 AM
I enjoy playing my force a lot, and have a VERY hard time playing as any of my hunter characters. When the new spells come out, I'll just love it even more.

waluigi1
Nov 13, 2006, 12:32 AM
I don't think you can lvl Resta by casting it over and over can you? So why would you be able to with buffs?

DarkSeph
Nov 13, 2006, 12:38 AM
So Like, No Offense Dude, but being a Force is the Coolest thing since the Klondike Bar http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif HAHA I can waste groups of enemies in 1 spell and Heal like there's no tomorrow.....What's not to LOVE about being a Force http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif Granted I do like the hunting part but being a force I can still use a Bow and Pike type weapon, So I'm happy http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Itsuki
Nov 13, 2006, 12:59 AM
So the support spells only become more potent when you put them on a better staff? Am I the only one who doesn't see anything wrong with that?
They don't become more powerful with TP. Using a bigger better rod just means spending more PP to recharge it.


Lvl 1 is 12% stat increase, 2 minute duration, Lvl 11 is 15% boost, 3 min duration and increased range, focusing on damu so I don't have the numbers for lvl 21 buffs yet.
Do those numbers yourself? I haven't tested it extensive, but other than duration, my buffs don't seem to have any difference in power when compared to other forces 11+ and 21+ buffs.

Perhaps it'd be more noticable with higher numbers on something like digga.

Also, It really depends on WHERE you level. More than anything, fortechers are a liability in Agata Relics. Sure you want atleast 1 in your party, but you don't really need more. In other areas though, such as Hakura, Endrum, Deima, etc. More than one force is a good thing. I don't think many groups even consider Hakura without atleast 3 forces, but thats an extreme example.

Flunky
Nov 13, 2006, 12:59 AM
While I'm not playing the JP version with expert classes and whatnot, I can say that at level 36 if I'm looking to join in a group I won't join any that don't already have a force (I'm a hunter). Sure my breakdancing dagger moves look impressive and can cause some good damage, but to pull it off well I've got to have cover, in the form of both offensive and defensive spells.

While I'm not a huge fan of playing a force (I don't like big PP recharge bills, they irk me for some reason), I'm a huge fan of playing alongside one.

Bahamut89
Nov 13, 2006, 01:22 AM
On 2006-11-12 19:39, Muffin wrote:
It's not flashy, but a single hit of 600-800 damage or 3 enemies hit for 400 outweighs 5 hits doing 50 each or 3 for 150.

Er... my level 30 Newman Force hits three targets for 200 with each Radiga, while my level 20 Beast Hunter's spear PA hits 5 times for 150, on two targets. Assuming Radiga hits twice as often, that's 1200 vs 1500, with the hunter at an advantage. And the force has a better wand than the hunter's lance...

Your numbers are rather off, I'd say. I like forces (Resta is awesome) but I wouldn't say they're exceptionally powerful.

Ceresa
Nov 13, 2006, 01:58 AM
Of course I tested it myself, that's why it's accurate.

http://pages.prodigy.net/bienb/xoxobuffs.JPG

Anyways, my avg dmg goes up by about 20 on pannan, and down by about 20 on centarns due to mob stats obviously.

So if you're in a group, using guns that do rather small dmg, and no way to tell if you have l33t LV11 buffs or crappy lvl 1 shit while fighting various random mob types, you probably won't notice a difference just eyeballing it.

Shazbot
Nov 13, 2006, 07:12 AM
Thanks for the comments so far. I appreciate the constructive input from the people who didn't take offense just because their favorite class is getting ragged on. I'll do my best to give some feedback as well.


you know you don't HAVE to spend all day next to a cube. How about you just level them the normal way: CASTING THEM ON PEOPLE! Don't be so obsessed over leveling the buffs and just let the levels come naturally.a force to heal.

How often do you think you'll cast the 4 buffs in a single mission? Let's say 10 times in a 20 minute mission. That's about 2% points. Now do 50 missions. Congratulations! You've just raised your buffs 1 level! There's nothing natural about that. Why do I have to explain this to you? If you can type at a computer, you should be smart enough to have understood this just by reading the first post.



my suggestion: stop playing force and leave it to the people who want to play it

I think I just might do that. Tell you what: I'll go start playing my Fortefighter and Figunner again and if we ever happen to come across each other in a game, I'll let you heal me with your Force--if I need it. But try to keep up because my non-Force teamates and I are gonna be killing stuff pretty fast. I've actually got my own LV 50 Attack Up tech now that I think about it. It's called "Asking your Force side-kick pal, Sanjuro-san, to leave so that another Figunner can join". One of you is enough. Oh and my suggestion: if we're doing any missions involving a boss like Onma Goug, please go somewhere safe and hide--we're used to S-Ranking our missions and I'd hate for you to mess that up by dying in one hit.


I think many people who play Forces tend to become dazzled by Hunters, not because of their actual damage, but because of their bravado...[brevity sake] people cheering when a Force joins due to their needed abilities. And the games I've been a part of consisting of all Forces has always cleaned house.
.

No, it's pretty much the damage. It's better. Not only that but the variety of PA attack animations are just soooo varied and fun. I don't think anyone here is thick enough to argue that standing still and repeatedly throwing big, orange rocks and red blobs can beat the sheer fun factor of going ape shit with 5 different triple combo PAs. I think it's pretty clear where the developers spent most of their energy when you look at the available attack animations for each weapon; Hunters.

As for people cheering, yes, people cheer when a force joins, not 3 or 4, and only when there isn't already one in the game--because one is enough. However, would 3 Forces cheer if 3 Hunter/Rangers joined a game of equal level enemies? I think so.


However one thing that doesnt make much sence is that at 11 and 21 the range doesnt increase.

The range increases only at level 11 and level 21. Sorry if that was unclear.


So Like, No Offense Dude, but being a Force is the Coolest thing since the Klondike Bar HAHA I can waste groups of enemies in 1 spell and Heal like there's no tomorrow.....

No offense taken and I appreciate your easy-going response. But, what B or A Rank missions are you doing where you can waste groups of enemies with a single spell? You meant after 10 casts, right?

Bleemo
Nov 13, 2006, 07:59 AM
This actually is quite a reasonable argument if you get past trying to defend your class.

I've been a Force for quite a while since I've started the US release. Before even reading the OP's analysis, I have become to notice roughly the same things.

Forces are not accurate. When you cast a spell, though it may hit hard, you rely on the monster being at a certain position when you cast the tech. Because techs have such slow casting speed compared to monster movement speed and other player activity, it stoops down to simple luck if you hit something or not. This can get quite annoying and frustrating, as you often waste loads of PP whizzing your rock baseballs past the mob each cast.

Other classes can hit far more accurately as they can lock on and their attacks set off very quickly. Summing up damage will clearly shift toward Hunter and Ranger.

In six member parties, I have gotten used to just being a Resta and box opening whore. Mobs are flying all over the place, it's quite difficult to land any attacks unless you're in the mob's face. Even then, a simple step out of the way from a mob will screw it up entirely because of slow casting speed. Forget AoE in six member parties, it's usually just a waste of PP. If we can hit something, we will deal a lot of damage. It seems the more members in the party, the less accurate you become, thus resulting in the lesser damage dealt.

Hunters and Rangers can deal a constant amount of accurate damage. They have Photon Arts that give crowd control, and most can deal more sufficient, reliable amounts of damage than Force techs. We have slow casting inaccurate attacks that do not work well when partying with other players. Killing those few big, slow targets are the only thing we can fully utilize our damage against.

The more members in your group, the less damage you will deal.

Yoiyami
Nov 13, 2006, 08:15 AM
On 2006-11-13 04:59, Bleemo wrote:
This actually is quite a reasonable argument if you get past trying to defend your class.

I've been a Force for quite a while since I've started the US release. Before even reading the OP's analysis, I have become to notice roughly the same things.

Forces are not accurate. When you cast a spell, though it may hit hard, you rely on the monster being at a certain position when you cast the tech. Because techs have such slow casting speed compared to monster movement speed and other player activity, it stoops down to simple luck if you hit something or not. This can get quite annoying and frustrating, as you often waste loads of PP whizzing your rock baseballs past the mob each cast.

Other classes can hit far more accurately as they can lock on and their attacks set off very quickly. Summing up damage will clearly shift toward Hunter and Ranger.

In six member parties, I have gotten used to just being a Resta and box opening whore. Mobs are flying all over the place, it's quite difficult to land any attacks unless you're in the mob's face. Even then, a simple step out of the way from a mob will screw it up entirely because of slow casting speed. Forget AoE in six member parties, it's usually just a waste of PP. If we can hit something, we will deal a lot of damage. It seems the more members in the party, the less accurate you become, thus resulting in the lesser damage dealt.

Hunters and Rangers can deal a constant amount of accurate damage. They have Photon Arts that give crowd control, and most can deal more sufficient, reliable amounts of damage than Force techs. We have slow casting inaccurate attacks that do not work well when partying with other players. Killing those few big, slow targets are the only thing we can fully utilize our damage against.

The more members in your group, the less damage you will deal.



Now you see what I was whining about. T.T

kammera
Nov 13, 2006, 08:28 AM
I really enjoy force and I'm having a lot of fun playing it. I might be missing something but sitting at 46, when I get 5 other people that know how to play their class(and sometimes not even http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif ) then things die pretty quick be it a forces, hunter, or a ranger. Some of the best pts I've had was where there were 4 or more forces all hitting aoes and the hunter, if there was one, wasn't slinging everything around so you normally hit the 3 for about 250-500 which adds up pretty fast.

Carlo210
Nov 13, 2006, 08:58 AM
1-2 hit kills = why I stopped playing force.

Tedia
Nov 13, 2006, 08:59 AM
You don't get XP by casting Resta on others.

Sychosis
Nov 13, 2006, 09:11 AM
Keep in mind the most accurate techs (Nos, Dam, and Gi levels) have yet to be released in NA. And as far as a Force's dying problems are concerned, we are atill awaiting Jellen, Deband, Retier, Zoldeel, Dizas, and Rentis.

Yoiyami
Nov 13, 2006, 09:19 AM
For now, it sounds like it's best to just wait to play a force. They're pretty nerfed at the moment. I plan on saving up on my hunter so when I get my force, money (and cute outfits) won't be much of an issue.

Mystil
Nov 13, 2006, 09:23 AM
On 2006-11-13 05:58, Carlo210 wrote:
1-2 hit kills = why I stopped playing force.


Forces shouldn't be getting hit...

..but provoke doesn't exist in this game and I find it extremely hard and nerve racking when a schlew of mobs run after a force -.-.

Sexy_Raine
Nov 13, 2006, 02:23 PM
We weren't meant to be the best in damage. Too many people think that. We are the party's support and keep the hunters from dying. And you know what's funny? I never played a force in PSO, but I absolutely love being one in PSU. Playing a hunter seriously isn't as great as it use to be in PSO(I used to love using them too). I'm sick of this pointless force bashing.

Yoiyami
Nov 13, 2006, 02:30 PM
On 2006-11-13 11:23, Sexy_Raine wrote:
We weren't meant to be the best in damage. Too many people think that. We are the party's support and keep the hunters from dying. And you know what's funny? I never played a force in PSO, but I absolutely love being one in PSU. Playing a hunter seriously isn't as great as it use to be in PSO(I used to love using them too). I'm sick of this pointless force bashing.



Forces can be support or they can be damage dealers. They can be the star atomizer or the nuke. It's up to the person playing the force to decide their role. It's in the job description. No one reads it.

Both roles have their annoying ups and downs.

Vorpal
Nov 13, 2006, 02:37 PM
I enjoy forces more than hunters for some reason. But I still like to play hunters.

I like how forces have so many techniques, and strategys to do things, while hunters get a variety of weapons, but they always end up smacking them to death. [Forces will usually nuke things to death though.]

Plus, it's enjoyable to watch hunters fly around the room and hearing that grunt when they get hit by a explosion in Grove of Fanatics.

Eli_Leviathan
Nov 13, 2006, 02:39 PM
On 2006-11-13 04:59, Bleemo wrote:
This actually is quite a reasonable argument if you get past trying to defend your class.

I've been a Force for quite a while since I've started the US release. Before even reading the OP's analysis, I have become to notice roughly the same things.

Forces are not accurate. When you cast a spell, though it may hit hard, you rely on the monster being at a certain position when you cast the tech. Because techs have such slow casting speed compared to monster movement speed and other player activity, it stoops down to simple luck if you hit something or not. This can get quite annoying and frustrating, as you often waste loads of PP whizzing your rock baseballs past the mob each cast.

Other classes can hit far more accurately as they can lock on and their attacks set off very quickly. Summing up damage will clearly shift toward Hunter and Ranger.

In six member parties, I have gotten used to just being a Resta and box opening whore. Mobs are flying all over the place, it's quite difficult to land any attacks unless you're in the mob's face. Even then, a simple step out of the way from a mob will screw it up entirely because of slow casting speed. Forget AoE in six member parties, it's usually just a waste of PP. If we can hit something, we will deal a lot of damage. It seems the more members in the party, the less accurate you become, thus resulting in the lesser damage dealt.

Hunters and Rangers can deal a constant amount of accurate damage. They have Photon Arts that give crowd control, and most can deal more sufficient, reliable amounts of damage than Force techs. We have slow casting inaccurate attacks that do not work well when partying with other players. Killing those few big, slow targets are the only thing we can fully utilize our damage against.

The more members in your group, the less damage you will deal.



I disagree...Its not luck when you cast a spell its skill...if you cant learn the enemys movement then your screwd especialy if your playing a force...you have to watch how they move and cast based on that..thats what i do atleast.

AngelLight
Nov 13, 2006, 02:43 PM
What is up with the role pigeonholing? We are not Healbots....we're not Battle Mages....We're casters...guess what? That means we can do healing AND offensive casting. Wake up people, if you're a heal bot you're:

a) Stagnating your character, cause you're not getting exp.
b) Stagnating your character, cause you're only leveling 2 or 3 skills total out of a potential 36.

If you dont heal then you're only playing half of your class, if you only heal you're still only playing half of your class with the added benefit that you're not boosting your own survivability.

For the life of me I dont understand why people can't figure that out...it shouldn't take rocket science to see that if you're doing nothing but healing you're not getting exp.....and then some will say (well, I'll tag with debuffs)....that's great except we dont have debuffs now and besides that, you have built in debuffs in your attack spells that you're ignoring...and that crap about how hunters do more damage...is just that, crap....there's no proof that hunters do more then forces and plenty of people on both sides of the fence who say that we're equal. If you're a force and you're having problems hitting things, that doesn't mean you are not ment to hit things...that means you need to work on your personal skills more. Trust me, hunters have their own problems to deal with that forces dont. It's balanced that way.

Pure-chan
Nov 13, 2006, 03:17 PM
On 2006-11-13 11:39, Eli_Leviathan wrote

I disagree...Its not luck when you cast a spell its skill...if you cant learn the enemys movement then your screwd especialy if your playing a force...you have to watch how they move and cast based on that..thats what i do atleast.



True and false. It's skill when squaring up on a group of enemies. It's luck when hunters rush in spamming PA's that knock enemies all over the map (i.e. twin saber/dagger/fists/etc.) before you can get your tags in. ...Hopefully, Gi techs will help balance that out. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pure-chan on 2006-11-13 12:20 ]</font>

Shadow_Wing
Nov 13, 2006, 03:21 PM
On 2006-11-13 04:59, Bleemo wrote:
This actually is quite a reasonable argument if you get past trying to defend your class.

I've been a Force for quite a while since I've started the US release. Before even reading the OP's analysis, I have become to notice roughly the same things.

Forces are not accurate. When you cast a spell, though it may hit hard, you rely on the monster being at a certain position when you cast the tech. Because techs have such slow casting speed compared to monster movement speed and other player activity, it stoops down to simple luck if you hit something or not. This can get quite annoying and frustrating, as you often waste loads of PP whizzing your rock baseballs past the mob each cast.

Other classes can hit far more accurately as they can lock on and their attacks set off very quickly. Summing up damage will clearly shift toward Hunter and Ranger.

In six member parties, I have gotten used to just being a Resta and box opening whore. Mobs are flying all over the place, it's quite difficult to land any attacks unless you're in the mob's face. Even then, a simple step out of the way from a mob will screw it up entirely because of slow casting speed. Forget AoE in six member parties, it's usually just a waste of PP. If we can hit something, we will deal a lot of damage. It seems the more members in the party, the less accurate you become, thus resulting in the lesser damage dealt.

Hunters and Rangers can deal a constant amount of accurate damage. They have Photon Arts that give crowd control, and most can deal more sufficient, reliable amounts of damage than Force techs. We have slow casting inaccurate attacks that do not work well when partying with other players. Killing those few big, slow targets are the only thing we can fully utilize our damage against.

The more members in your group, the less damage you will deal.



I can agree on this analysis, playing as a full time Ra most of the time, with a Fo alt, I notice that I'm unable to hit mobs as reliably on Fo than when I'm a Ra. When the mobs start flying all over the place, it becomes difficult to tag or deal damage to mobs due to our slower casting time.

When mobs stop flying around Fo dish out the damage, by a considerable amount. I found that a 1 Ra and 5 Fo party just kills any mission http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime2.gif

AngelLight
Nov 13, 2006, 03:26 PM
then all that says is that hunters are just playing by themselves and not as a team.....yes if a Fo can't hit something cause the HU sent it half way across the screen out of range of all of his or her's teammates then they might as well be soloing with an NPC. Now, if you can get a timing down and coordinate attacks between your HU and FOs with RAs on control....then you'll see real results.

Shadow_Wing
Nov 13, 2006, 03:39 PM
I didn't say I didn't hit it cause it went flying across the screen, I stated it was just more difficult, I of course compensate for the mob flight. I may have missed my initial atk spell cast but that doesn't mean I didn't hit successfully the next time.

The only reason why 5 Fo and 1 Ra team is deadly is mainly due to the fact that mobs tend to cluster up and thus get hit multiple times by high dmg spells.

AngelLight
Nov 13, 2006, 03:40 PM
um....the post wasn't implying directly to you, but in general. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Shadow_Wing
Nov 13, 2006, 03:46 PM
lol I just figured since it was after me XD

Sexy_Raine
Nov 13, 2006, 03:51 PM
AngelLight, I'm glad to see people like you truly defending forces. We are the few, but proud. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif
Just wait till we get lv 30 techs..



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sexy_Raine on 2006-11-13 12:52 ]</font>

Yoruichi
Nov 13, 2006, 04:06 PM
its not about the 30 techs raine, its about getting more of the same spells for different uses. Other the the elements your missing the current spells all do the same thing. Most if not all the monster elemental abilities you see forces get including buffs and flamethrower like moves.

DizzyDi
Nov 13, 2006, 04:12 PM
On 2006-11-13 04:12, Shazbot wrote:
Thanks for the comments so far. I appreciate the constructive input from the people who didn't take offense just because their favorite class is getting ragged on. I'll do my best to give some feedback as well.


you know you don't HAVE to spend all day next to a cube. How about you just level them the normal way: CASTING THEM ON PEOPLE! Don't be so obsessed over leveling the buffs and just let the levels come naturally.a force to heal.

How often do you think you'll cast the 4 buffs in a single mission? Let's say 10 times in a 20 minute mission. That's about 2% points. Now do 50 missions. Congratulations! You've just raised your buffs 1 level! There's nothing natural about that. Why do I have to explain this to you? If you can type at a computer, you should be smart enough to have understood this just by reading the first post.



There is something natural about that. You're raising the buffs like they're sopposed to be raised. Not by powerleveling them by spending your day next to a refill cube and constantly casting on yourself. If you're that anal about buffs then, sure, go for it, have fun with it. But I'd rather raise my buffs slowly but while having fun, gaining xp, meseta, and also raising other spells. If my buffs level after 5 missions, thats great. If they don't, I'll live, and I think you will too.
Forces are a great addition to any party. Just last night I was on some Dragon A runs and the forces will giving great support with thier Barta AOE (I forget whats it called, Rabarta?), freezing enemies left and right and doing some good damage. A rank Dragon is hell without a force.

Sexy_Raine
Nov 13, 2006, 04:28 PM
On 2006-11-13 13:06, Yoruichi wrote:
its not about the 30 techs raine, its about getting more of the same spells for different uses. Other the the elements your missing the current spells all do the same thing. Most if not all the monster elemental abilities you see forces get including buffs and flamethrower like moves.


Yeah, we don't even have half of what is given right now. We're pretty limited, for now.

AngelLight
Nov 13, 2006, 04:36 PM
On 2006-11-13 12:51, Sexy_Raine wrote:
AngelLight, I'm glad to see people like you truly defending forces. We are the few, but proud. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif
Just wait till we get lv 30 techs..



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sexy_Raine on 2006-11-13 12:52 ]</font>



Hehe well ty for the kind words. Its appreciated.

I dont know how much of WoW you know about Raine, but to give you an idea...my main is a Druid on there...and I choose that class for all around utility rather then the prevailing "healbotting" that people like to do to others. Druids were easily the most beat down upon class in that game...but as a result of that it created druids who were the biggest complainers this side of any MMO. It was a vicious cycle of death, destruction, and small furries.

Having been the creator of a raid guild, as well as a part of "hybrid friendly" successful raid guilds in the past, I can tell you that being flexible is for sure the best way to go to have fun...but by that same token, it's not for everyone. You have to play on your A-Game all the time. Mistakes stick out in people's minds quicker then you could imagine. Couple that with a class that was broken already by blizz and it creates alot of stress for most people and that creates less interest......thus why the high influx of hunters and rogues. But I found it a rewarding experience....cause at the same time people counted on you more cause you took care of several roles.......and so too are Forces.

Now, skip a few mmos and online type games to FFXI (I know I'm a glutton for punishment). My main there was a RDM (Red Mage). That game had an overall broken system dynamic (being very solo unfriendly as well as forcing you to regulate your leveling pace with others in your static groups). While I would always be on top of buffing (including the all important mana regen spell, I forget what they called it then, as every time I think of it, Wow's "Innervate" pops into my mind, guess I'm brainwashed huh? LOL) I was also spot on with Chaining spells....even more so then the BLMs to which I've had the honor of playing with some of the best at the time. I knew if I wanted to be more then a mana battery or Backup healer I had to be on my A-Game and prove that I could be useful in other regards. So I found something to go with and I ran with it.

My point to all of this is that Forces are easy to throw into "healbot" role, just as it's easy to throw Druids into "healbot" role.....just as its easy to thru Red Mages into "Backup Healbot" or "Buffbot" roles. But the saving grace to Forces are that, they are in fact excellent sources of other things too...and unlike the other examples where it's an issue of a broken class design or broken game enviroment design or a lack of tools to use, PSU has none of that. Every class is equally being held back by the lack of skill and weapons content. Every class has been put on the same playing field. But Forces have wonderful tools to use, and most of the time....those forces who are "healbotting", are doing so cause there's a lack of party dynamics going on and not because the content is heavily skewed to implying that role (healing) as the only successful role. I've met very few PSOW people online, but the handful that I've played with have been decent. The randoms I see however, show a bad trend in what I like to call the "One Button Salute"...or hammering one button thru an entire run doing the same thing over and over even if it's not adventageous to do so. Hunters are not easy-mode if played properly, but it is easy-mode for a crappy player to be a hunter. There's a difference. Its for those who dont do anything to become better players that stay hunters that partly feel that they need to draw others in to compensate for their weaknesses...when in fact you should be drawing in people to capitalize on strengths.

There's no shame in healing others....it's important and a noble job. There's also no shame in humbling a hunter who thinks they are the top of the food chain.

But the greatest honor is to play with people who care about others in their group...those who say "Hey are you able to tag everything? No? Ok I'll tone it down a bit so you can all help out". Protransers will be the ultimate class to demostrate teamwork mechanics and if they're even remotely as effective as they were in Guild Wars, then all protranser parties will be the ultimate way to go. But all that aside, if I can help even one new force down the path to being a good team player and not a slave to others defeciencies and at the same time not a freaking glory hound or crazy person with recklessness....then I've done a good thing that day.

Forces are both damage dealers and healers. Embrace them both and work hard to do both well.

P.S. AngelLight for PSOW President, '08
Campaign Promise: "A Drakee to everyone who votes for me" http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/drakee.gif

Cause_I_Own_U
Nov 13, 2006, 05:06 PM
OMG a asian game where the melees arent the gimps and the casters arent the overlords of the universe god forbid

SonicTMP
Nov 13, 2006, 05:11 PM
Question: how many forces out there actualyl use wands for faster casting and use something else besides the giant flaming rock of wiff? This is what i see the majority of forces use. Staff + diga. Aren't wands suppost to be faster casting? Aren't any of the other spells faster?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SonicTMP on 2006-11-13 14:13 ]</font>

Yachiru
Nov 13, 2006, 05:28 PM
Lol, about the inaccurate comments. You can aim your skills pretty easily.. it's not that hard to detect the enemies movements. They move the same way everytime, they're stupid. I never gave Force a chance, so I started one in PSU and I LOVE Force now. I'm not defending "my class", I'm just stating things from my expierence. Even if we are inaccurate, wen we do hit it's for a decent amount of damage. As Felix stated, we can nuke all we want, and we never hit for 0 damage.

I don't see what all the complaining is about. You don't like some qualitys that a Force has, whether it be to your advantage or not. Good for you, just leave it to the people who want to play it.

AngelLight
Nov 13, 2006, 05:30 PM
In my opinion, wands are the way to go if you're using offensive casting spells that require a cast time of sorts (I expect that channelled spells wont need the fast cast as much, but we'll wait and see). As someone pointed out, you're less mobile casting spells then you are firing a handgun as an example. This is a game that you can't just stand around all the time and hit a button (as a force). While its sometimes possible to be static in one spot (creating a kill zone of sorts), in reality...especially against bosses, you have to be always moving. As such I always use my wands (I keep 3) for any and all nuking I do. The added potential TP boost from a rod, is IMO not worth the added survivability of being less of a static target to something while attacking. Wand cast times are like half a sec or something close. Rods are like 2 or 3 I believe. Now I will say that I intend to use a rod for all support and healing (as I do now with my current healing rod). Two reasons for that: If I'm healing myself, then I'm first running out of an immediate danger area to heal (I'm not likely to zerg rush anything as a force ;P ) so I can give myself that time....and also because I want to make sure that I heal everything possible the first time and not have to recast it over again (and make myself a static target to be hit again). In parties, you're not the frontal focus of most targets if you're using a talented Ra to keep things nice and neat. So you can throw it on your rod and do what I like to call "Drive By Healing". Basically just do a big arc into the combat area and get as far away as possible from your ally but still in range to heal, fire it off and then run back out to the outside ring of the combat area and go back to fighting. Heal hard, heal once and make it big the first time. Its less risk to you and it chases trailing mobs that might be following you back into the area of battle where other hunters or rangers can pick them up (and get free backshots). Additionally, if you can anticipate the direction of exit for someone who might potentially have to evacuate an area (for example someone caught up in the fire breath of a Regan by accident) then you can already be on the move to where you're anticipating the "cleanse" spot and be already there (this implies you're not going to have a hunter run away from you while you're trying to help them).

So, to sum it up:
Wands - Offense
Rods - Defense

One more thing...take a bow with you...they're alot better then some people lead others on to believe. Keep your bow skills up to par just like your spells and be ready to pull it out for flying things or situations where you're trying to stay at an extreme range of battle (for whatever reason, it sometimes occurs).

again that's my opinion.

AngelLight
Nov 13, 2006, 05:37 PM
On 2006-11-13 14:11, SonicTMP wrote:
Question: how many forces out there use something else besides the giant flaming rock of wiff? <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SonicTMP on 2006-11-13 14:13 ]</font>


Forgot to answer this, while diga is the highest dmg spell out now...it's not as easy to hit things with as say foie and the difference between diga and foie is roughly 10% dmg at max level of both...assuming the same gear and loadout. Targeting is one of those skills you just have to build up.....however, if you're just not having any luck whatsoever, then switch over to foie and it should get easier. I dont usually have problems hitting with diga but I can appreciate the fact that diga isn't for every time...sometimes you need an AoE like barta, zonde, or the Ra spells. Sometimes you need something that goes out faster like foie.....even if diga does more damage, if you're not hitting and you're still doing it then you're failing as force.

But I do recommend practicing your targeting on a regular basis so that you can, again, be on your A-Game.

Btw, your description of Diga made me LOL http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif