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Mikaga
Nov 12, 2006, 04:09 PM
This has been asked a couple of times in the past, but not in so long that I decided to start the conversation anew.

There's something seriously wrong with Wartechers, I feel. They don't get level 30 techs, S-rank wands or rods at all. This makes them little better than basic Forces, who could grind a B-Rank rod and make an arguably better magic user.

"But that's to be expected, it's a hybrid class." has been argued for some time now, and I would like to dispel that claim.

For starters, Wartechers are Force 5, Hunter 3. This should make them more Techer than War, and considering an almost inability to actually use technics alongside their level 20 technic limit, this doesn't seem to be the case.

That said, the main component of my problem is that the other two hybrid classes don't suffer these issues:

• Figunners get their own weapon! Not only that, but player reaction shows that the double saber is much coveted. In addition, Figunners get level 30 skills.
• Guntechers can use just as many ranged weapons as Fortegunners, are equally capable with traps as Fortegunners, and can use level 30 bullets.

I shall summarise most of the "Wartechers are in trouble" argument with the following image:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y38/mikaga/psu/classtable.png

As you can see, there is absolutely nothing going for the class. Nothing.

Now, I would rather this thread did not degenerate into "no u" or "stfu", and thus would request that all replies intending to make contribution do so with a little thought and justification.

Who knows, maybe I've missed something crucial that "redeems" Wartecher as a class. Heck, perhaps my source of some information is wrong.

LocGaw
Nov 12, 2006, 04:21 PM
Doesn't a Fortecher get L30 bullets. If not then why give them S-Rank access to a bow?

As for point of discussion, I am not sure. I guess that no other class brings such a high mix of weps and techs... Although that seems like a weak excuse I believe that it hits the nail on the head.

Maskim
Nov 12, 2006, 04:22 PM
Actually, I think what the wartecher has going for them is they are pretty much a full basic force and a full basic hunter. They don't get unique s ranks, but they do get s rank daggers and twin daggers, along with a slew of A ranks. They get the current lvl 20 spells and PAs, although nothing new, I would think that a character who is basically an improved FULL hunter, and improved FULL Force (basically the 2 base classes with some s and a rank choices) is going to be far from gimped.

That's just my thoughts on it though. I havn't put too much thought into it, as I'm probably going Figunner. Don't want anything to do with the doublesaber, but I do like dual swords. The real reason though, is even though their only A rank, Figunner gets both my favorite weapons.. swords and twin handguns.

ZiG
Nov 12, 2006, 04:22 PM
That's kinda disturbing... lol...

entropyboy
Nov 12, 2006, 04:23 PM
do you want us to call the cops so that the person holding a gun to your head making you choose wartecher will back off?

jeez, just dont play one

EDIT: for constructive sake
personally i think they sound cool. None of the other advanced classes can get L20 techs other then going full force. plus you get a good selection of weapons, L20 skills and L10 bullets. i dont think that it is a race to what classes can use S rank weapons and how many. all the classes are balanced for what they can do. you also have to take into account stats.

i dont know what adv.classes i want to play yet, but this one is closer to the top of my list then the bottom



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: entropyboy on 2006-11-12 13:27 ]</font>

Flamingo99
Nov 12, 2006, 04:25 PM
Although I see your point, I don't exactally agree with you. Wartechers can gave lvl 20 Technics and Skills along with level 10 bullets. This makes them generally balanced. They are literally a Force and Hunter put together. They can use S rank Twin Daggers and S rank Daggers, along with many different A Ranks like Spears, Handguns, and Cards. Its true that they may not the the strongest class possible class, but they are far from useless.

entropyboy
Nov 12, 2006, 04:28 PM
i think their combination and ability to heal and buff/debuff will make them amazing solo characters, for people who like that kind od challenge

they just seem very self sufficient to me

Ffuzzy-Logik
Nov 12, 2006, 04:29 PM
Renkai Buyou-zan and Buten Shuren-zan are extremely powerful PAs, yes? Now imagine using them both with S-Rank weapons, after you have cast buff techniques on yourself, and debuffs on the enemy. And then you can heal yourself with Resta.

Yeah, Wartecher sucks.

Cause_I_Own_U
Nov 12, 2006, 04:29 PM
I always wondered why they didnt get 30 tech, i suppose its because buffs are suppose to make up for it, a figunner cannot buff his atp and ata but a wartecher can etc etc

Also that is a nice chart, i didnt know fortefighters had -20% PP usage, that would work so great with tenora works weapons or grms


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cause_I_Own_U on 2006-11-12 13:31 ]</font>

Kupi
Nov 12, 2006, 04:31 PM
Resta.

No, seriously. Resta. The ability to cast at all gives you access to a tank of low-cost heals that can be used either on yourself or the rest of your party. That in and of itself is a powerful asset that a Figunner isn't going to have.

Let's not forget support techs. With just Agtal (I think that's what Shifta's called this time around), you can enormously increase the damage output of your entire party. Let's say there's already a Fortefighter doing a mission, and you've got someone else joining him. If that "someone else" is a Figunner, that's fine. They've got someone else to smack the enemies around. If that "someone else" is a Wartecher, you not only get another meleer (A-ranked Spears and Dual Sabers and S-ranked Dual Daggers are nothing to scoff at), but you also see a rise in the efficiency of the meleer who was already there.

(Granted, a Fortecher might out-support the Wartecher, but hey, that's hybrids for you.)

I guess my point boils down to this: sure, a Wartecher doesn't look all that great on paper when directly compared to other classes. However, you may be underestimating the power of support techs. Being a Wartecher isn't about being the strongest yourself, it's about making everyone else even stronger, then joining in on the front lines. The only other class I can think of with a similar job description (deal damage through your teammates) is the Fortecher, which, surprise surprise, is the other Force-based class.

Does that help?

Mikaga
Nov 12, 2006, 04:32 PM
On 2006-11-12 13:22, Maskim wrote:They don't get unique s ranks, but they do get s rank daggers and twin daggers, along with a slew of A ranks. They get the current lvl 20 spells and PAs, although nothing new, I would think that a character who is basically an improved FULL hunter, and improved FULL Force (basically the 2 base classes with some s and a rank choices) is going to be far from gimped.
Actually the "some S rank choices" *is* Daggers and Twin Daggers. That's it. There is nothing else. They don't even get an S-Rank offhand if they decide to use a Single Dagger. Furthermore, Figunner gets BOTH Single and Twin Dagger as well.

I never said I was going Wartecher. I just took notice of what appears to be a quite horrible mix of weapons, stats, photon arts and others.

Kanore
Nov 12, 2006, 04:38 PM
Resta 20's a great subsitute for lack everything else.

LocGaw
Nov 12, 2006, 04:39 PM
I think everyone has put it better than I did! Alot of people will look at paper stats but when it comes down to it the Team without a Fortecher but has a Wartecher will be heads and shoulders above one without either...

Maskim
Nov 12, 2006, 04:41 PM
I know they only get daggers and twin daggers for their s ranks. That's what I wrote. Nothing's stopping you from using their A rank choices too, if you prefer them. However, daggers and twin daggers are awesome, and probably a great choice for S ranks.

Figunners specialize in fast attacking, multiple hit weapons, like the twin sabers and daggers, of course they have S rank in them too. The difference is the Figunner cannot heal or buff himself through the use of technics, nor can he blast damage dealing spells. The Wartecher will probably do fairly well in a group, being a jack of all trades character, but be a soloing machine.

Fortefighters don't get a S rank off hand weapon either, being able to only use handgun at A rank. What's more, Figunners, who actually take ranger levels, don't get S rank guns either, given just a few gun choices all at A rank level. Soooo..why would a wartecher, who has no training in firearms get s rank in one again?

Scallop
Nov 12, 2006, 04:43 PM
what i dont get is that figunner gets lv 30 pas.

Mwabwetumba
Nov 12, 2006, 04:45 PM
Im brainstorming myself to find a vision of my afro-CAST being a WarTecher.. and I see it now.. spinning around with his daggers and spears, and when the need arises he grabs his funky stave and heal himself and other nearby him with a shiny disco-move..

Maskim
Nov 12, 2006, 04:53 PM
On 2006-11-12 13:43, Scallop wrote:
what i dont get is that figunner gets lv 30 pas.



Figunners stil get 30 PAs because they're still a focused hunter. They do no get the PA casting reduction that a fully focused hunter does (Fortefighters use PAs at 80% cost). So, they can use lvl 30 PAs, but not as many of them, because it costs them more, in addition to dual weapon PAs seem to cost more than single weapon PAs to use anyways.

I think most of my arguments can be summed up easily though. We can complain and wonder aloud why things weren't done differently, but in the end Sonic Team had years to make this game. They playtested it, even after all the time spent to get it right... I think it's probably pretty balanced.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Maskim on 2006-11-12 13:53 ]</font>

Itsuki
Nov 12, 2006, 05:08 PM
• Guntechers can use just as many ranged weapons as Fortegunners, are equally capable with traps as Fortegunners, and can use level 30 bullets.

Actually online right now, Guntechers and fighgunners can use the same amount and fortegunners can use as many traps as protransers. But that doesn't really have anything to do with the current arguement.

When you look at it, Wartechers are the only other capable technic user. Sure guntechers can use techs, but that doesn't mean that they can actually do much with them. I use some sparing techs here and there. The main use I've found now has been for debuffs. Wartecher techs actually deal damage.

You really have to consider their stats aswell. Weapons and what you get s-ranks in aren't everything. You can look at a protranser and can say "Oh, it must suck because it can't use any s-ranks", or you can look at its stats and say "They will never get high enough stats to meet the minimum requirement of s-rank weapons".

Wartechers have almost equal hp to fortefighters. For all intensive purposes, I'd say they're tied for highest HP in the game. They have 2nd highest DEF, 2nd highest EVA, 2nd highest TP, 2nd highest MST. They're dead center for ATP (higher ATP than Protransers, Guntechers, and Fortechers) making them reasonable at melee. If anything, this is telling me they're meant to be a High survivability force.

Mystil
Nov 12, 2006, 05:10 PM
Wartecher sounds like the dragoons of FFXI. Very little to offer and anyone can do the same thing better. Just how it sounds to me. But being able to heal without blowing money on mates(and buying full set of monos' and di's cost fuck load more than PP recharges. Rangers/forces excluded of course.)

Flunky
Nov 12, 2006, 05:15 PM
I used to be more of a wartecher fan, but in my opinion the real point of frustration is that you can only use wands to cast. Wands don't have too much PP for a full run, and you only ever have it out if you're buffing or healing. There's no way you can have both melee and casting available at once, and this means that there's no way you'll be regenerating PP for both casting and melee at the same time.

Second: One wand won't be enough PP for a mission unless you like to either plink with an off-hand ranged (right...) or take a couple of trips back to the lobby throughout. So take a couple of wands... but then unless you like to do a lot of preset changing your melee choices have just been shot. As a hunter I keep a melee weapon of each element on me- I use multiple weapon types, but I don't try to have each weapon in each element. I chose each weapon's element based on the sorts of enemies I tend to fight with that element. As a ranger, I chose my bullets PAs based on the same thing- freeze rifles for boss damage, lightning uzis for quick blankets of paralysis, etc. If I want more than resta and ONE buff, I'll need to keep at least two wands in my quick select. To get a fair number of buffs while only keeping resta on one wand, I could easily have from 3-5, even 6 wands. How much melee ability does that give me? Not too much.

I think that if wartechers either get some way to not have so little PP or more techs per quickslot (rods, perhaps, reduced PP usage, or even -gasp- an offhand casting device just for them) they'd be quite nice. As it is, not so much.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Flunky on 2006-11-12 14:16 ]</font>

-Shimarisu-
Nov 12, 2006, 05:17 PM
YES MY WARTECHER ON JP JUST FUCKING SUX NOW WHY DID I MAKE THAT CHAR. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

Seriously, you should put 5 Force on your hunter just for the simple reason that at later levels switching class costs penny change to you, especially if you are planning repeat runs with friends and lack a force.

Hell I'm a BEAST wartecher. Now my biggest problem is ATA. But once again that isn't such a big deal later on, I can hit most of the time on A rank (I'm only in the mid 30s). It's also a fantastic solo class.

I haven't tried buffs yet, but I'm sure she'll rock with them. Staying on US till I get both my US chars in A, however.

Edit: And preset changing is something you are just going to have to deal with as a Wartecher I'm afraid.

Who gives a shit.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2006-11-12 14:19 ]</font>

-Ryuki-
Nov 12, 2006, 05:21 PM
...Great, now I don't know what I want to be. First, I thought WarTecher, but that chart shows that they got shafted. Then, I pondered ForteFighter, but compared to others, the only thing I'd be benefitting from it is just the S-Rank Spears. So then, I thought.. "maybe FiGunner?" It seems to be the best, accoridng to the chart, due to 40% melee PP recharge per tick, S-Rank Sabers, etc.

As I see it.. what do you guys think I should be? To help you out, I'm a HUmar who is loves wielding the Spear. In PSO, I used to use buffs and Resta, as well as switch to Handgun to snipe. In PSU, I only switch to the handgun to snipe the Dragon, and I can't use buffs or Resta YET. Any suggestions on what class I should be?

Flunky
Nov 12, 2006, 05:21 PM
Since there aren't much in the way of buffs yet (I think, right?) I suppose the wand number situation isn't so bad. About how much PP consumption are you experiencing for healing and whatnot as a wartecher, Shimarisu? Am I just being silly claiming that PP's an issue? (Honest question, not being sarcastic).

Maskim
Nov 12, 2006, 05:29 PM
If you wanted to be a Wartecher, Ryuki, be a wartecher. I don't think they're getting the shaft at all, and from the sounds of it, neither do people who play wartechers. It depends on your playstyle. If you like being very self sufficient, then the wartecher should be great for you. If S rank spear is what's most important to you, then fortefighter might be he way to go, especially since you rarely use a handgun. Just look at what's most important to you in your character's concept, and choose that way.

-Ryuki-
Nov 12, 2006, 05:32 PM
Arigatou~

That was a rather quick and easy decision. I should be content with how I am. The only times I really get hit, anyway, are during boss fights. S-Rank Spear <3

Maskim
Nov 12, 2006, 05:40 PM
Good deal, now if they'd just make further advanced classes, like 5 lvls of fortefighter, and 5 lvls of figunner lets me get a class that can use both s rank twin weapons, and s rank swords, I'd be in PSHeaven.

As to being the fortefighter, remember the get some nice bonuses to ATP DFP and HP, along wih a 20% reduction in PA costs, and the two handed weapons they specialize in cost less to use the pa, and get bigger grind bonuses as well. I grinded my sword to only +1 last night, and 1 less ATP in that one grind than in 3 or 4 (can't remember, it was too late at night) grinds on my dual swords. +24 atp from one grind is a nice thing for a fortefighter.

-Shimarisu-
Nov 12, 2006, 05:44 PM
On 2006-11-12 14:21, Flunky wrote:
Since there aren't much in the way of buffs yet (I think, right?) I suppose the wand number situation isn't so bad. About how much PP consumption are you experiencing for healing and whatnot as a wartecher, Shimarisu? Am I just being silly claiming that PP's an issue? (Honest question, not being sarcastic).



There is zero problem with PP consumption because force weaps get silly PP, seriously.

Also as a beast my ATP is much higher than my TP so I only really use support techs and Diga/radiga.

And yes, you do have to keep switching palette. It's just the way of the Wartecher I'm afraid. It isn't a problem at all.

Flunky
Nov 12, 2006, 05:48 PM
Thanks fer the response.

By switching palette do you mean switching the gear you have preset to make use of more than 6 different weapon sets? Or just working within your presets?

In any case, it's good to know that PP consumption isn't an issue... I tried to emulate wartecher a bit with a force and a fluorescent bulb, heh, and wand PP was always an issue. I suppose using the B-rank and A-rank wands is better than the 800 and 2000 meseta wands I was using.

-Shimarisu-
Nov 12, 2006, 05:51 PM
You just grind the wands up, but really I only use 2. Actually I have 3 synthed, but I grind them one at a time and make a new one if they break on the way.

Yes I meant switching the gear you have preset. Almost everything you can equip is right handed only. I don't use anything in the other and bar ONE gun, to break boxes. Once again, her ATA is just terrible, and she has Diga to hit aerial targets anyway.

Flunky
Nov 12, 2006, 05:54 PM
The whole switching presets is the only thing turning me off right now, then... suppose that's just something I'll have to get used to doing when I try it out.

I'll probably be using a cast wartecher if I do, so at least pistols will be able to do something.

Glad to hear positive info about wartechers! I had all but abandoned them before reading your responses.

EphekZ
Nov 12, 2006, 05:59 PM
like parn's guide said, Wartechers are closest to a Melee FOmar(which was a one man army). Like in PSO, FOmars didnt have the best FO stuff or the best Hu stuff, but they still did good dmg and was able to fully support the team. Now, if there is S/D/J/Z in this game then it'll be the same case. Since you wouldnt be teching much, just supporting, then a decent Yohmei corp. wand will do fine as they have high PP.

A rank, IMO, is good enough. they still get to use claws, which for some reason everyone is going crazy about, Bows, fists, the works.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: darkgunner on 2006-11-12 15:01 ]</font>

Itsuki
Nov 12, 2006, 06:01 PM
If people are complaining about having to manually switch their palette, they need to be welcomed into high level play. I hold as many as 15 weapons on me at one time as a guntecher and switch all the time. Hell, we have a Fortefighter that brings 15 weapons in with her. You better believe that even a fortefighter has to manually switch out weapons mid level. I don't think theres anyone we play with thats 50+ and doesn't manual switch out weapons save rod using forces (though then again, many of our forces choose to go wands instead, rods for buffing/healing).

-Shimarisu-
Nov 12, 2006, 06:15 PM
Well yeah, I switch out on all my chars. I switch out on US already. But on Wartecher, I switch out a lot more. I mean on my Fighgunner I can actually hold stuff in both hands that's usefull, so it's double the PP and less to switch out.

The only things wrong with wartecher are the right handed weapons issue, and shit for ATA. Both are easily overcome.

Also Wartecher is easily the most variable class depending on race. I think it's because it's so balanced. It might SEEM more FO, but it's not. It's a true 50/50. As a beast you'll be more like a HUne, as a newman more like a melee FOnewearl. As human, more like a FOmar/marl. I went more the HUne route. I have the lowest ATA of any class/race hunter combo in the game though. You have to decide if that's worth getting past.

I also have a power based nanoblast and deal a LOT of damage in it. My high defence means I'm not particularly vunerable. I've died ONCE during it dsue to Bil-de-Vears, but who hasn't?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2006-11-12 15:19 ]</font>

-Shimarisu-
Nov 12, 2006, 06:26 PM
I just also want to add that I have a ranger PM on my wartecher because it helps the shit ATA during soloing.

Kent
Nov 12, 2006, 06:35 PM
Eh, I'm getting kinda antsy, waiting for the update, so I can start playing Wartecher. I don't think it looks bad, by any means, and I do a lot of palette-swapping, and PA-swapping, anyway. Of course, access to Rods or some form of left-handed casting weapon would be really nice, and is certainly on my wishlist, but that's about it.

Mikaga
Nov 12, 2006, 07:38 PM
On 2006-11-12 14:08, Itsuki-chan wrote:When you look at it, Wartechers are the only other capable technic user.

{Following paragraph cut for space:} Wartechers have almost equal hp to fortefighters. For all intensive purposes, I'd say they're tied for highest HP in the game. They have 2nd highest TP, 2nd highest MST. If anything, this is telling me they're meant to be a High survivability force.
This is my fear. Wartechers aren't even half as good a Force as Fortechers. Instead of S-Rank Rods, Wands and Offhand with Level 30 Techs and impressive stats to back it all up, you've got *no* Rods, A-Rank Wands and fewer offhands, at best A-Rank. AND level 20 maximum techs. AND stats that - yes, second highest in the game - are NOTHING compared to Fortechers.

There's a difference between being "second best woo" and "35% to 45% worse on just the stats", and if players in-game are going to believe like most of the posters in this thread that Wartechers are going to be suitable "We'll take one if there's no Fortecher around." then the class doesn't have a lot to look forward to.


Weapons and what you get s-ranks in aren't everything. You can look at a protranser and can say "Oh, it must suck because it can't use any s-ranks"
It's clearly arguable that Protransers are meant to be the "boring" class that has very little unique about it. They have redemption in the form of Skills they can combo that third time, *and* level 30 bullet techs. Their weapons, while - yes - only A-Rank, are numerous and nicely varied in nature.

By the sound of it, Wartechers don't even get that, and alongside Protransers will never have a single weapon in the game that only they can use. At least Protransers have an excuse, and alternate merits.

Maskim
Nov 12, 2006, 08:06 PM
Time will tell, and since you're unwilling to listen to those who PLAY wartechers, like Shimarisu, who have told you they are good and fine, what's the point of continuing this discussion. 'Your experience says it's a fine class, but my tables and files say it's horible on paper. Lord knows nothing's ever turned out better or worse than it looked on paper.'

-Ryuki-
Nov 12, 2006, 08:29 PM
It just sounds like FO's seem to be the most dominant in Expert classes.

Mikaga
Nov 12, 2006, 08:38 PM
since you're unwilling to listen
Not that you seem to care, but I'm not prepared to stick around if I'm gonna be insulted like this.

Clearly I should apologise for voicing my doubts about a job class I will likely never bother myself with. I hereby apologise for trying to discuss some of the finer elements of the game (zomg how dare i?), and for supposedly not listening to people whose speculation, off-hand comments and (on occasion) limited experience is clearly more so much valuable than posts which have taken some thought, that mine are obsolete and simply the act of posting them is the most unholy of insolence.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mikaga on 2006-11-12 17:43 ]</font>

-Shimarisu-
Nov 12, 2006, 08:42 PM
On 2006-11-12 16:38, Mikaga wrote:
]
This is my fear. Wartechers aren't even half as good a Force as Fortechers.



That's because they AREN'T a force. In fact the only stupid lack of balance with them is the fact they aren't 5 Hu, 3 Fo, because for any race OTHER than Newman, they are best used PREDOMINANTLY as melee.

That's a melee char which can damage melee resistant enemies by the way.

Lnin0
Nov 12, 2006, 08:55 PM
The trade off of the Wartecher is you get solid melee character combine with the healing/ranged powers of a force but do less damage than the other classes. Basically a paladin which is generally a very strong class by virtue of what it combines.

Wartechers have an HP bonus per level consistant with a Fortefighter. TP and EVP bonus second only to Fortechers. Not completely gimped considering they have powerfull ranged attacks, resta and the health to jump in and go toe to toe with anyone.

Figunners have powerfull ranged and melee attacks with great ATA and ATP bonuses so they will be damage dealing machines. However, they have zero tech and worse health.

Gunnertech have techs but gimped at level 10. They have the smallest HP bonus aside from Fortechers and a choice of only two melee weapons - both of which are single handed. With level 10 skills and the second weakest HP bonuses they are not designed to take damage.

Fortechers might have S class rods and level 30 techs but they have the HP of an infant. Good luck in a mob because even if they can dish out massive damage one hard smack will put their lights out.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Lnin0 on 2006-11-12 18:00 ]</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Lnin0 on 2006-11-12 18:02 ]</font>

Varon
Nov 12, 2006, 09:47 PM
Although I do see where you stand on this consider it from a hunters perspective if they went wartech they would gain magic instead of S ranks which is somewhat understandable

HolyCecil
Nov 12, 2006, 09:54 PM
Try it. You might like it. There's only one way to find out. Right?

-Ryuki-
Nov 12, 2006, 09:54 PM
ForteFighter FTW then >.>;

Vorpal
Nov 12, 2006, 09:55 PM
Yay fun!

I play it Wartecher style in Story Mode.

Anyways...
HP: Highest with Fortefighter, great.
ATP: 4th in the ATP section, but Shifta should help.
DEF: Same with FiGunner, second place.
ATA: 2nd Worst. Armor slots, and the zonde buff skill. Too bad it will be harder to equip bows.
EVA: Second highest, great, unless your in a PA, but still it's a life-saver.
STA: Not a important stat, unless you dread status effects.
LUCK: ???
TP: Second highest, high enough to make spells worth casting instead of only buffs.
MST: Second Highest again.

Wartechers are a GREAT solo machine. Master of nothing, failure of nothing [Except maybe ATA >.>] They're second best in a lot of things, and etc.

I might of repeated other people though.

If a class needs a fix, Guntechers would need a slight fix, having only .09 more TP than fighgunners.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Vorpal on 2006-11-12 18:56 ]</font>

-Ryuki-
Nov 12, 2006, 10:00 PM
Hmm.. I might try it, just so I can buff and Resta.. But other than that, they don't get access to S-Rank items, or have unique items.

I want my Spears. I'm a Dragoon. It's a given.

Neith
Nov 12, 2006, 10:01 PM
I think Wartecher sounds quite good actually, after reading up about it. I'm currently raising a Newman Female to be one.

I was a bit annoyed that they couldn't use S-Rank Claws, but I've remedied that by making my Beast a Fortefighter (when expert classes are released).

I think that yes, they do have their flaws. However, the ability to be able to take down damage-resistant, AND be able to melee enemies has to be great.

Yeah, sure, their Healing/Nuking power isn't going to be like a Fortecher, but they're clearly not meant to be for the same purpose. The way I see Wartecher is- HUnewearl/FOmar. You can hold your own in melee combat, and keep yourself (and team) going with support techs. HUnewearl in PSO may not have had the Resta strength of say, a FOnewearl, but it did help in a team.

I see Wartecher being the same kind of deal. Yes, they're limited in equipment, but if you can overlook that, you're looking at a potentially very useful class (probably a hell of a solo class too)

-Ryuki-
Nov 12, 2006, 10:04 PM
WarTechers can be good, if you're capable of getting your hands (or paws) onto high-grinded equipment, be it weaponry or armor. That's how I see it, after reading Uriko's post.

KiteWolfwood
Nov 12, 2006, 10:04 PM
Why the hell is everyone talking as S rank in both twin and single daggers is nothing. "Oh boo hoo I don't have S rank in every single freaking weapon class". If you want buffs and resta and S rank in daggers then you will love Wartecher. If you don't then who cares. Like you said they are better then the basic force. And it seems to me that they are better then the basic Hunter. Are either of these two classes weak in anyway? Wait isn't force and hunter the two damage dealing classes in the game? Hmm a force with the hp an defense of a hunter. Hmm a hunter with buffs and heals. Such a terrible class alright.

_Deliverance_
Nov 12, 2006, 10:44 PM
You can't call a job gimp if you haven't seen nor played it. Seriously, get a grip on yourself.

Shiro_Ryuu
Nov 12, 2006, 10:50 PM
wow, is that a typo or do figh gunners get 40% pp regen on melee weapons? if so, it just makes them even more appealing to me.

-Ryuki-
Nov 13, 2006, 12:03 AM
Yeah, FiGunners make me want to jump on them and be one myself, but see.. What good will that do, if they don't get S-Rank Spears? XD;

BigKevSexyMan
Nov 13, 2006, 12:46 AM
The Daggar/Wand combo sounds like it'd be pretty sweet. Blast a couple spells to severely reduce your enemies HP, then finish them off with a great buffed daggar combo.

If ATA is a big concern, then why not be a fortehunter for a while and when you're comfortable with your ATA switch to a Wartecher.

Gamemako
Nov 13, 2006, 12:48 AM
Considering that there are only 3 classes that get technics at all and Wartecher gets 20 (second only to fortetecher), what are you whining about again?

And hey, you can also wade into a mob of foes with twin sabers, toss 'em all on the ground, and toast 'em yourself with a gifoie. What other class can do that? None. You can cast any spell you want up to level 20, which is the level of a full Force.

The real question is: what CAN'T a Wartecher do? He can heal and buff and deal elemental damage like a Force, but he fights like a Hunter. He can be a Force without the liability. He doesn't get wasted by big attacks. He can play a more active role in taking out mobs. He can heal when the team Force isn't nearby (or there is no team Force).

Figunners aren't really all that hybrid. They're specialized fast-attackers. They get to use guns, but so does just about everybody else (except Fortefighters and Fortetechers).

Guntechers get level 30 bullets, which don't do anything new. Technics and skills actually change. Giving Wartechers the technic ability reserved for Fortetechers or the skill-using ability of Fortefighters is utterly insane. If they did, we'd be talking about how insanely overpowered Wartechers are. Furthermore, Guntechers only get level 10 techniques, which means the gi-series skills are pretty much useless because of their limited range. That makes them a gimped Fortegunner with a stick for healing and pretty much nothing else -- but that makes them quite valuble, doesn't it?

And as for palette-switching, well, how you guys go about it is your business, but I tested my own cheap little way to instant palette switch with a keyboard macro (Logitech G15 keyboard). Although it can be a pain when you get new weapons and have to redo everything or set in dummy items to take up space because you're too lazy to do it all over. Oh well, convenience comes at a price. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

-Ryuki-
Nov 13, 2006, 01:15 AM
I'll stick to something simple.

Like Spears.

Itsuki
Nov 13, 2006, 01:23 AM
Guntechers get level 30 bullets, which don't do anything new.
I'd argue that being able to freeze everything that isn't a true boss is something new that 21+ bullets can do. In agata relics you can freeze a svalatus while the rest of the group takes out the other ones or something similar.

And to add to the thread:

This is my fear. Wartechers aren't even half as good a Force as Fortechers.
You twist my words. Many of the stats I named make them second best in hunter categories. Maybe they're half as good at being a force, but a newman wartecher is still better in pretty much every way over a cast fortecher from a stat perspective.

Also, they're not "half the force". They can still deal 3/4ths the damage with techs. Also, as I've stated before, inability to use rods isn't much of an issue. Even with mei/quick, the speed of rods is just too slow in many of the A rank and S rank missions. Making many fortechers not even bother with rods except for with buff/debuffs.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Itsuki-chan on 2006-11-12 22:34 ]</font>

Genobee
Nov 13, 2006, 02:24 AM
Wartechers suck because they are paladins and paladins are for noobs.

BigKevSexyMan
Nov 13, 2006, 02:31 AM
This isn't WoW. I imagine a wartecher will take much more skill to use than a fortefighter or even a figunner.

Maskim
Nov 13, 2006, 02:42 AM
On 2006-11-12 17:38, Mikaga wrote:

since you're unwilling to listen
Not that you seem to care, but I'm not prepared to stick around if I'm gonna be insulted like this.

Clearly I should apologise for voicing my doubts about a job class I will likely never bother myself with. I hereby apologise for trying to discuss some of the finer elements of the game (zomg how dare i?), and for supposedly not listening to people whose speculation, off-hand comments and (on occasion) limited experience is clearly more so much valuable than posts which have taken some thought, that mine are obsolete and simply the act of posting them is the most unholy of insolence.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mikaga on 2006-11-12 17:43 ]</font>


Wow, over-react much? You aren't seeming to listen. There are folks here who have played the class, and you're prefering pure speculation to their advice on the subject. Nothing wrong with speculation, mind you, but experience definatly outweighs it. Since we don't have first hand experience, we take the word of those who do. I say you are not listening, because you obviously 'heard' them (for lack of a better term), but failed to comprehend their meaning, as someone told you that you had misconstrued their post.

I apologize that you felt I was being an a$$, or whatever, but there was no personal attack in which to take such great offense to. It's not like I said 'Stop making baby Jesus cry with your stupid opinion!'

-Ryuki-
Nov 13, 2006, 02:45 AM
Why are people always sounding as though they're trying to start debates all the time?

BigKevSexyMan
Nov 13, 2006, 02:47 AM
Because at times, it's more fun than the game. Who doesn't like a little drama?

-Ryuki-
Nov 13, 2006, 02:51 AM
Drama's everywhere, that much I can admit, but if people play games to escape the drama, why bring it to the games?

Maskim
Nov 13, 2006, 02:52 AM
If it's everywhere, by you own admission, then it is inescapable, especially in a game, where people congregate... or something like that. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

BigKevSexyMan
Nov 13, 2006, 02:53 AM
To mindlessly pass time.....

LTrav2k
Nov 13, 2006, 02:53 AM
After reading this, I'm still looking to be very happy with wartecher. They get the boost in both PA and Techs, can take a hit and actually live to heal themselves well, plus deal reasonable amounts of damage. Being second best in a lot of areas can really shine when that moment comes around that shows a different type to be deficiant. If they were any better they'd be literally the best at everything.

Oh, but I appreciate that chart... very nice http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: LTrav2k on 2006-11-13 00:04 ]</font>

-Ryuki-
Nov 13, 2006, 03:17 AM
Inescapable.. a word? Maybe you meant "inevitable". Bound to happen, being the preferred definition, right?

I still want my S-Rank Spear, so WarTech, will never happen, unfortunately.

Maskim
Nov 13, 2006, 03:33 AM
Nope, I meant inescapable.

inescapable  / Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-uh-skey-puh-buhl]
–adjective
incapable of being escaped, ignored, or avoided; ineluctable: inescapable responsibilities.
[Origin: 1785–95; in-3 + escapable]

As in 'The irony of starting an internet debate over the properness of a word, while complaing people debate on the internet is inescapable.' http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Maskim on 2006-11-13 00:35 ]</font>

-Ryuki-
Nov 13, 2006, 03:36 AM
i just like the word "inevitable", so with a good given opportunity, I enjoy using it XD

Maskim
Nov 13, 2006, 03:40 AM
I like the word 'inconceivable' because of the bald guy and Andre the Giant in Princess Bride.

"INCONCEIVABLE!!"
"I do not think that word means what you think it means."

-Ryuki-
Nov 13, 2006, 03:51 AM
XD!

That movie's funny =)

Magician
Nov 13, 2006, 06:58 AM
I like melee, I like techs; wartecher's where it's at.

I can't wait to be a buff/debuff force and then get into the mix after casting.

galaxy
Nov 13, 2006, 11:42 AM
ok after a certain point i stopped reading the responses (im in a rush), but i had an idea that might get people to play wartecher more (or at least change the opinions of those who don't like it).

What if they allowed wartechers, and wartechers alone, to put wands in the offhand? that way, they could be carrying a dagger and a wand on the same palette? i don't know if this changes any game mechanics or anything, but i think it would be a great solution.

some might say its absolutely useless, since if your capable, switching from one weapon to the other on your palette cycle takes no time at all, but in the heat of battle, that switch might cost someone their lives...also, if you just needed to get everyone off of you immediately, a gibarta or something immediately at access would be extremely useful.

thoughts?

Lyrise
Nov 13, 2006, 11:47 AM
On 2006-11-12 19:50, Shiroryuu wrote:
wow, is that a typo or do figh gunners get 40% pp regen on melee weapons? if so, it just makes them even more appealing to me.



It's definitely a typo. Fighgunners only get 125% regeneration. The only classe that gets 140% regen is Fortegunner on shot weapons.

klunka
Nov 13, 2006, 11:48 AM
On 2006-11-13 08:42, galaxy wrote:
ok after a certain point i stopped reading the responses (im in a rush), but i had an idea that might get people to play wartecher more (or at least change the opinions of those who don't like it).

What if they allowed wartechers, and wartechers alone, to put wands in the offhand? that way, they could be carrying a dagger and a wand on the same palette? i don't know if this changes any game mechanics or anything, but i think it would be a great solution.

This is a balancing issue as what would prevent me (as a Wartecher) from putting a wand in each hand? I could fill up my palette with double wands and have a near limitless amount of TP to use. It would make Wartechers more useful casters than Fortetechers in situations where it was not intended.

Feelmirath
Nov 13, 2006, 11:55 AM
Until Shifta/Deband/Zodial/Retial arrive, Wartechers won't have much going for them. But they can resta, and everybody likes resta.

Itsuki
Nov 13, 2006, 12:01 PM
On 2006-11-13 08:47, Lyrise wrote:

On 2006-11-12 19:50, Shiroryuu wrote:
wow, is that a typo or do figh gunners get 40% pp regen on melee weapons? if so, it just makes them even more appealing to me.



It's definitely a typo. Fighgunners only get 125% regeneration. The only classe that gets 140% regen is Fortegunner on shot weapons.



Fighgunners definately don't get 140% regen. But I know for a fact guntechers do get 140% regen on shot weapons. I'm unsure about the fortegunner bit, I've seen it listed both ways for them on the japanese sites. Some say 125%, some say 140%. Either way, if they did, it still wouldn't be "only fortegunner"

galaxy
Nov 13, 2006, 07:02 PM
On 2006-11-13 08:48, klunka wrote:

On 2006-11-13 08:42, galaxy wrote:
ok after a certain point i stopped reading the responses (im in a rush), but i had an idea that might get people to play wartecher more (or at least change the opinions of those who don't like it).

What if they allowed wartechers, and wartechers alone, to put wands in the offhand? that way, they could be carrying a dagger and a wand on the same palette? i don't know if this changes any game mechanics or anything, but i think it would be a great solution.

This is a balancing issue as what would prevent me (as a Wartecher) from putting a wand in each hand? I could fill up my palette with double wands and have a near limitless amount of TP to use. It would make Wartechers more useful casters than Fortetechers in situations where it was not intended.



ok, well then you'd limit it. you can only have one wand in each palette slot. clearly this wouldn't be allowed. its the same exact thing with handguns...you can't set 2 handguns in one palette slot, you have to actually equip a dual handgun weapon. so, the same thing would occur...granted it might take some reprogramming, but i don't think thats a huge problem.

i dunno, i just see this as being a great way to boost wartechers up.

Gamemako
Nov 13, 2006, 07:53 PM
Damn man, Wartechers don't need a boost. Look at their stats on PSUPedia: they are the kings of defense, with a tie for the best HP, tie for second best DFP, second best EVP, and second best MST, and resta to boot. They have element-matching techniques as well as disabling skills. They can do buffs and add status effects with spells. Seriously, they're like Kratos/Zelos from Tales of Symphonia. A fully-featured warrior/magician (or as Kratos' title says, "Magic Swordsman"). And it doesn't hurt that Kratos and Zelos are arguably the strongest characters in the game.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gamemako on 2006-11-13 16:54 ]</font>

HUnewearl_Meira
Nov 13, 2006, 08:24 PM
Personally, I compare the Wartecher to the HUnewearl. You won't have the highest of anything, and honestly, some may consider it a challenge. The advantage though, is that you've got a high rate of survival-- keep your mates in reserve for emergencies, and use Resta when you've got the time. This class has a lower cost of operation.

Here's why I'm going with the Wartecher, though: I don't like casting, but I've gotta have that Resta. Just to have a meleer with the ability to cast Resta, that is enough for me. The fact that I'll get buffs as well is simply a bonus. I've been using a HUnewearl for what, five or six years? I've gotten used to having decent melee with good buffs, debuffs and heals. I'm gonna do it again.

Cause_I_Own_U
Nov 13, 2006, 09:51 PM
ill get my PM to be my heal bot

uber pun 4tw

Mikaga
Nov 13, 2006, 10:13 PM
Just posting quickly to refute Kratos/Zelos as an argument.

Kratos and Zelos work because they do have unique things. The Lightning Blade and Light Spear families MAKE their combat style, and the useful Demon Spear and fantastic Hell Pyre only add to this. Sure, their spells are either borrowed (Judgment, all Genis' low-mid level spells) or worse than someone else's (Healing Stream < Revitalize in every way, much like Wartecher Resta < Fortecher Resta...), but Kratos and Zelos are more fighter than mage, another reason they don't make a good likeness to Wartechers.

Edit: Oh yes. And Zelos' regular attacks hit enemies surrounding - and even behind - him. The combat style of most other fighters is to stand still and stab forwards only.

So yeah. When the complaint is that something has zero uniqueness to it, you can't really provide an example of "something that worked" when the something had plenty unique that in turn made it work.

Gamemako
Nov 13, 2006, 10:19 PM
I'm going Wartecher because that's what my HUnewearl was all the way to Ult mode -- pow/mind mag and all. Of course, in ult I just spammed gibarta and hacked away at the icicles...

Meira, the thing is, Wartechers actually do have the best of something -- they have the best overall defensive stats. They are the most hardy class in the game just from stats, not to mention the addition of Resta and buffs. A tougher tank does not exist in PSU, and that's not even your job. Now take the tough tank, wade into a mob of 6 or 7 with no fear of death and.. GIFOIE. To quote Millenia from Grandia II: "Deep fried goodness!" Use your imagination, kids -- when you're a Wartecher, you've got the Universe at your fingertips. Abysmal pun intended.

//EDIT: To respond to the fellow above me:

Actually, Light Spear series and Healing Wind were his only unique attacks. Lightning thrust can be acquired with Lloyd by using lightning weapons and sonic thrusts. Demon Spear is just a combo of Light Spear and Demon Fang. Hell Pyre was pretty crappy unless you were fighting ice enemies because it left you quite vulnerable. Now, I found Healing Wind extremely effective -- it was basically a less powerful version of Healing Circle, but it had a VERY fast cast. My Kratos spent as much time using spells as he did physically attacking -- but that's what was so great about him. No wasted spot for Genis or Raine -- I could use Lloyd, Sheena, Presea, and Kratos. Now, as for hitting behind him... what the hell? Kratos' six-hit combo (EX gem level 4 effect) hits ahead of him and slightly around. Otherwise, he hits ahead of himself and... slightly around (depending on directional presses). In no case does he attack behind himself. Only his Light Spear / Victory Light Spear / Demon Spear attacks hit enemies behind him. The only person I know of who has an attack for enemies to his rear is Lloyd's neutral attack.

Truly, there is very little unique about Zelos and Kratos in ToS except for their balance of skills.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gamemako on 2006-11-13 19:32 ]</font>

Zorafim
Nov 13, 2006, 10:37 PM
If I'm not mistaken, doesn't a HUney with lv20 shifta and deband have more attack and defense than a HUcast without either? Isn't that what made them rock? I don't think buffs quite work well enough anymore to make melee mages that good. Heck, offline I never touched wands because it wasn't worth the effort to pull them out and wait for them to work.

Princezach
Nov 13, 2006, 11:56 PM
Man having Shifta and Deband plus the new stats up will def make a wartecher Worth the time i think. I mean resta level 20 buffs for the group and for yourself your making urself a frontline fighter with good DPF and Hp i hear its like a Paladin

Mikaga
Nov 14, 2006, 12:05 AM
{Filler "defense" talk} A tougher tank does not exist in PSU, and that's not even your job.
What good is a tank in a game without any kind of hate system, attack drawing or hit shielding? You can't stand in front of another party member and shield them from damage. You just get hit as well as them.


Lightning thrust can be acquired with Lloyd by using lightning weapons and sonic thrusts.
Lightning Thrust (Lloyd using Sonic Thrust with a lightning-imbued weapon) is (a) fiddly to achieve due to needing an item or a Sheena technique (b) barely half as strong as Lightning Blade, let alone Super Lightning Blade.


Demon Spear is just a combo of Light Spear and Demon Fang.
Oh noes?


Hell Pyre was pretty crappy unless you were fighting ice enemies because it left you quite vulnerable.
I could use it. Looks like we'll need to agree to disagree on this one.


Now, I found Healing Wind extremely effective
Another one we'll have to disagree on. In battles that are intense enough (read: Mania without 10x) to require repeated and precision castings of a technique that only heals 30% life, I always found it was easier to just take Raine for Revitalize spam and use three dedicated damage-dealers.


Now, as for hitting behind him... what the hell? Kratos' six-hit combo (EX gem level 4 effect) hits ahead of him and slightly around. Otherwise, he hits ahead of himself and... slightly around (depending on directional presses). In no case does he attack behind himself.
I never said Kratos could hit enemies behind him. This entire paragraph was moot.


The only person I know of who has an attack for enemies to his rear is Lloyd's neutral attack.

Truly, there is very little unique about Zelos and Kratos in ToS except for their balance of skills.
Have you ever used Zelos? He's considered "high tier" due to his attack patterns and the fact that he actually attacks a little FASTER than Kratos. That he's got a killer Title, no need to use the Judgment he doesn't get and the availability of a certain combo-forever trick are all small bonuses in comparison.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mikaga on 2006-11-13 21:07 ]</font>

-Shimarisu-
Nov 14, 2006, 12:50 AM
Fucking nerds.

Maskim
Nov 14, 2006, 12:53 AM
lol

BigKevSexyMan
Nov 14, 2006, 12:59 AM
lol^2

Zorafim
Nov 14, 2006, 01:01 AM
Did he just, um, call somebody a nerd, while visiting a forum for an online game?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irony

Maskim
Nov 14, 2006, 02:08 AM
That's part of the funny.

-Shimarisu-
Nov 14, 2006, 02:12 AM
Fucking human beings.

-Ryuki-
Nov 14, 2006, 05:11 AM
ForteFighter, FTW!

Doh42
Nov 14, 2006, 09:56 AM
Hello~ Long time lurker here, and this is my first post..

I would like to point out one thing that made me "swallow the pill" for wartecher, because I was also very dishearthened (sp?) seeing they couldn't use PA30s or Tech30s.

Some weapons, including my currently favourite single-handed dagger, the PA never gets a 3rd step at PA21 (some actually seem to have only 1 step, such as the charged fist attack, or the spinning double-saber move), meaning the 10 additional levels for that PA are only used to get a 10% attack and accuracy bonus (I can live dealing less damage than a fortefighter; I mean, I will have resta)

Single-handed claw, single-handed dagger both seem to have 2 PAs (at least), and one of them have only 2 steps (Correct me if I'm wrong; the current online dagger PA is 2 steps, and the claw-attack that ends with a big jump _looks_ like 2 steps only) Knowning this, I felt like Wartecher's main turn-off (no level 30 PA) was diminished, at least for me.

Having Resta and the AoE 4 buff-combined-in-one is the main appeal to me; it's like people have said before, while the Wartecher will never out-do a fortecher (especially not at nuking, but even at support they will be weaker), having a wartecher in a all-melee party (hunter, rangers, etc.) is still ways better than not having one.

Wartecher, unlike figunner & fortefighter, won't perform as well if you have more than one in the party, however. So if most people find them to be too generalists, and not specialized enough, they will probably be happy when one join their group; It's like FO right now; not my cup-of-tea (to play them), but I am happy when I have one beside me.

Oh, and about the A/S rank on weapons, I don't see why it's a big deal to everyone. I played hunter a lot (It's sitting at rank 10 atm) and I never used any B rank weapons except the pallasch I found (drops). I had plenty of C ranks of many elements, because they're so cheap to make, and I would swap them around based on my hunting grounds. In many case, the 20-40% elemental damage is better than the ATP boost you get from one rank above. Of course, if you have a B rank weapon of every element, you have the best of both worlds, but that's a major money investment.

P.S. I wasn't using B rank weaponry, but I was still doing the best damage of my little group is more the point, so don't start shouting "Gimped".

Hope I made sense ^-^

AngelLight
Nov 14, 2006, 10:04 AM
On 2006-11-12 13:21, LocGaw wrote:
Doesn't a Fortecher get L30 bullets. If not then why give them S-Rank access to a bow?



There's some confusion on the US side of things since PSUpedia made their change on their site. Problem is, all the Japanese sites still show it to be Fortetechers at 30 bullets and 30 techs...the trade off being that they only can use S bows, S Cards, and A handguns.

Me personally, both tend to agree with each other (US and JP sites) but when on the rare occasion they dont, I tend to go with the JP sites. So I do believe it's still 30 bullets and 30 techs for forte. Of course none of us are really going to know till expert classes get released on the US servers (and someone works up their handgun, bow or card skills to past 20....most likely it will be handgun that will prove this first given that no one else uses bows but forces, that it's only at 10 atm, and that cards are not out yet).