Stun Death; Team or Self's fault?

[DoubleJG]

I've noticed that if someone gets stunned, they usually end up dieing due to poor team coverage or healing. If someone was to die while being stunned, would you blame him or the team for the death (assuming they had no scape and the leader was a Die=Boot nut)?

Just curious.

[Garnet_Moon]

If I get owned to a Bil de Bears stun move and then their usual follow up Zangeif Move, then you damn well better believe i'm going to bite the Forces head off for being a girly man and not running in to save me.

I always come close when multiple ones spawn and they can't be separated, so if they ever crit on me i'm screwed. Somebody better have Sol Atomizers, Reverser, or Resta or I swear i'm gonna be emo right after I die.

[Kent]

That entirely depends on the situation.

If he ran off on his own, got mobbed, stunned, and subsequently killed? Then it's his fault.

If he was a moron, and died due to running in and getting himself mobbed, stunned, and subsequently killed before the Force could get to him... Still his fault. Hunters don't need to be stupid.

However, if the Force was in the immediate vicinity, had time to do the proper healing and decided he would be better nuking or something, then yes, it's the Force's fault this time.

...Yeah. The correct blame, depends entirely on the situation.

[Niki]

It's your responsibility to know how to fight and keep yourself alive, particularly if you're a Hunter. However, as a Hunter I always give Scape Dolls to Forces as a matter of habit, and if I am incapable of healing myself for some reason [which is probably my fault anyway], I expect my comrades to cover my ass.

While its never happened [yet], any Force who lets an incapacitated comrade die gets an immediate boot and blacklist from me and my brother.

[Garnet_Moon]

On 2006-11-20 00:18, Kent wrote:
That entirely depends on the situation.

If he ran off on his own, got mobbed, stunned, and subsequently killed? Then it's his fault.

If he was a moron, and died due to running in and getting himself mobbed, stunned, and subsequently killed before the Force could get to him... Still his fault. Hunters don't need to be stupid.

However, if the Force was in the immediate vicinity, had time to do the proper healing and decided he would be better nuking or something, then yes, it's the Force's fault this time.

...Yeah. The correct blame, depends entirely on the situation.


I haven't seen many Rambo or Chuck Norris', but yes. If the Hunter caused his own demise in such a fashion then he cannot blame anybody else. If it was a completely random occurance and the Hunter was with the group, then it'd be called on a case to case basis. Did he line himself up for it? Did the Force stand at the best place to stay out of danger while they cats, yet at the same time be in a spot that can get them close to whoever needs them?

Alot of factors I missed. Sorry, i'm sort of half awake. My last caffeine can just ran dry, so I won't be up much longer.

[Lorn]

I agree with Kent. I generally try to be on top of things when stuns, freezes, etc. go off, but there are times when someone has ran off well away from the group, and I can't get to them in time. Of course, there are rare occasions where it seems like just nothing could be done due to stun and then ludicrous immediate damage, at which point I'd have to throw up my arms and just call bad luck.

[Zaft]

I agree with the situational idea.

It's kinda odd...I don't think I've -ever- had luck on this game (well, the ingame luck that is) and yet every time I get hit by that when fighting Bil De Vears, I always come out with about 2 hp left >_>

[ProfessorZ]

It only pisses me off when they try to run off and solo. Other than that I've always apologized for not getting there sooner

[Garnet_Moon]

Fortunately the Forces i've partied with recently seem to know what they are doing. They Reverser Burn before it becomes a problem, as well as other status effects damn near instantly; they try to be the first one to the exit of the room to Resta everybody as they pass and keep them tapped off for the next room; and some have even volunteered to be janitor and pick up items everybody forgets. I'm starting to like Forces now.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Garnet_Moon on 2006-11-20 00:27 ]</font>

[Kent]

Caffiene? Bah, coughing up large globs of phlegm will keep you awake far better. :/

On topic: Unfortunately, I have seen some people that try to Rambo their way into fights. Needless to say, they ate a lot of Dimates... I even had a team split up at one point, because three of us wanted to go into one room for S-rank... And the others went into other rooms, without the one Force. From that astounding judgment call, you can probably guess what happened.

[Lorn]

Yeah, I'm one of those exit healcampers. Seems to be the best chance to get the most people cured simultaneously.

[JC10001]

I think it is the person who got stunned's fault if they die. They should have come prepared with a scape doll. I myself never start a mission without at least 4-5 of them.

[mogshaz]

Its kind of everyone's fault. If you get stunned its your fault, if the Fo doesn't reverser its his fault, if the ranger doesn't draw aggro on the monster pounding on you its his fault too. as long as you aren't some whack job go it alone guy teamwork usually helps in this situation.

[Mystil]

If I fall then so be it. I don't expect to be saved in these situations.

On 2006-11-20 00:22, Niki wrote:

While its never happened [yet], any Force who lets an incapacitated comrade die gets an immediate boot and blacklist from me and my brother.


That's a bit extreme there. A force being present does not mean death will not occur to anyone at any given time. All kinds of crap can happen between the force and said stunned player. I really think the ability to boot is the worst option in this game now.

[Bleemo]

Crap happens.

If you get stunned, it doesn't really mean anyone is at fault. No one can play perfectly. This is what Scape Dolls are for, and why they should be carried in abundance.

However, a healer would be wise to watch for status effects. I wouldn't blame anyone for a death by being stunned, but I certainly would wonder what that healer was thinking if I didn't get a heal tossed on me if he was near me.

[Flamingo99]

When i play force I try to use reverser to remove and SE a team member may have. People should not rely on Forces for everything. Everyone should bring their own sols and mates just incase a force cant get to you in time. You don't know how many times people with their HP down to yellow run around without even using at least a monomate, or beg for heals when they are about to die because they don't have any mates on them.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Flamingo99 on 2006-11-20 15:19 ]</font>

[ChocoboChad]

Agreed on the situation theory.

I'm a force myself, and I do everything I can to help out my party.

One day, a couple weeks ago, I was playin' grove of fanatics with a couple people.

I ran out of PP. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_eek.gif Yeah, a long time ago, really.

One of the ladies got stunned so I stood in front of her for a bit until she got out, using stars on the way.

That was fun. One of the funnest PSU moments for me.

[Ryo_Hayasa]

I don't know, personally.... I just...(i know everyone's going to hate me for this one) I don't like carrying scape dolls, i think it's just a massive massive waste of money (as in, this early in the game's content i'm wasting dolls at 5k a pop when i could be saving them up for something really serious) for the amount of missions i'll do and the amount of dolls i'll use, i'd rather die, get booted do another mission and be even more careful, then again i rarely die. I try to watch everyone's backs. (it's just how i am) I make sure to watch FOs if they get stunned then it's a problem a big one. I will gladly give my E-life in echange for someone who's stopped me from dying multiple times in a mission, Same for others. I've gotten my stats the way i want so i'm sure i can take a hit better than most. If i get stunned, then it's for good reason, either i got over my head, or i'm just unfortunately. Thankfully people are there to support me.

[Gamemako]

On VERY rare occasions, status effects cannot be avoided. In these cases, it's on the team to pick up the slack and pull through.

However, nine times out of ten it's the player's fault for getting himself smacked down. If everyone else is dancing around an opponent shooting him becuase he'll gibarta if you get close, don't run in and get frozen. You're a fucking idiot if you do, and that's nobody's fault but your own for not being aware of your opponent. You had it coming. If I see you do it (especially after I warn the team as I always do, even if we've done the mission before), you are relying on my good graces as a lover of S-ranks to keep you alive. If I'm not feeling peachy, you can enjoy your surrogate ninth circle of hell.

[Gazette]

Blaming the force isn't always viable.
I've run in to help stunned people only to get knocked back by other mobs.

With 3 Veal de bears jumping around, it's hard as hell to get anywhere near people sometimes.
I have had people die on my simply because I coulden't get close enough to the other person.

My take is that yeah, forces should try and help, but Hunters should expect worst case scenarios anyway.
Besides, kicking a force just because your butt was stunned half way across that map is just counter productive.
It won't make your run go any faster and it sure as hell won't up the rank if you died without a scape.

[Rhylsh]

Generally, i agree it's a situation by situation call. But i know i spam heals and reverser like crazy and i have YET to have anyone other than a force give half a rats ass about my condition. Healing is a two way street. If you want me to save your ass i hope to god that when i have 3 Vil de Bears contemplating which orafice to violate that someone uses a god damn Sol!

That being said the clueless get owned, i carry scape dolls.

[Niki]

On 2006-11-20 15:14, Silhouette wrote:
That's a bit extreme there. A force being present does not mean death will not occur to anyone at any given time. All kinds of crap can happen between the force and said stunned player. I really think the ability to boot is the worst option in this game now.

Perhaps more than a bit extreme. It's one thing if circumstances [creature behaviour + hunter stupidity + force proximity + whatever] dictate the inability of a Force to save the day. Understandable and point well-taken.

It's another if a nuke-happy Force is spouting 'lolnubz' while a Hunter is laying at redscreen as a result of trying to save his ass from a 1-shot.

While making allowances for a game's learning curve, one has to have standards. I hold Forces in the highest regard, and thus hold them to the strictest standard. It's my fault if I'm disappointed by being unrealistic, and I'm okay with that.

[Eskimo]

I find it odd how people try to justify not bringing scape dolls by saying they cost 5000 meseta, many player shops sell for 1000 or even less, so stop using that excuse! (unless your under lvl 20 or w/e) anyways i agree that it is definately situational, and while healing isnt entirely up to the force, relieving party members of Status effects should be since sol atomizers are much harder to find than mates, most areas with stun tend to have more Status effects than say, parum's De Ragan, so a force should be prepared, as should all classes I suppose.

Edit: @ the poll, ppl should carry scape dolls and sol atomizers/reverser...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Eskimo on 2006-11-20 16:47 ]</font>

[Blu_Swade]

On 2006-11-20 16:36, Eskimo wrote:
I find it odd how people try to justify not bringing scape dolls by saying they cost 5000 meseta, many player shops sell for 1000 or even less, so stop using that excuse!


Or you can do what I do and farm 'em, it's funny how common they are in the early missions, namely, Creature Discomfort (offline anyway, dunno' 'bout online...)

[Gamemako]

Online they're much more rare and more valuble -- an eight-star item.

[FenixStryk]

It's more of a mixed deal. You should ALWAYS have Scapes, so dieing in situations like this won't mess you up. However, a Forces job is to prevent things like this by using Resta and Reverser. It's a sad life, though, since I find myself casting Reverser more often than any other Force I've met. Sometimes I just have to say to myself, "I'm a CAST and I'm doing a better job than you? WTF!"

[Eternal_Drake]

Carry around scapes, forces arent obligated to Reverser you and few people actually have a Sol Atomizer on their tool palettte, and even then the chances of them dropping what they are doing to run over just to use the item they most likely dont have hotkeyed just so they might prevent the death that shouldnt disrupt s-rank because you should have scape dolls in the first place is unlikely, if that person who actually has them at hand even notices you are paralyzed.

[Laranas]

I'm a Force without Reverser (going primarily Wartecher, needed the spot for something else since I'm not a healbot) but I run in and resta spam until you're safe. The problem lies in what happens when the Force himself gets stunned and dies. Are other people responsible for not Star Atom'ing him? Is he responsible for running into the fray to save someone else?

[ryuartyi]

One of the things that I've noticed as being a force, is that there's very to no time that a status effect is in place, espically with two competeing forces for reverser levels.

[Ryo_Hayasa]

On 2006-11-20 16:36, Eskimo wrote:
I find it odd how people try to justify not bringing scape dolls by saying they cost 5000 meseta, many player shops sell for 1000 or even less, so stop using that excuse! (unless your under lvl 20 or w/e) anyways i agree that it is definately situational, and while healing isnt entirely up to the force, relieving party members of Status effects should be since sol atomizers are much harder to find than mates, most areas with stun tend to have more Status effects than say, parum's De Ragan, so a force should be prepared, as should all classes I suppose.

Edit: @ the poll, ppl should carry scape dolls and sol atomizers/reverser...



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Eskimo on 2006-11-20 16:47 ]</font>


-stands by his statement and starts up camp-

I'm saving my dolls for when we end up on the hive, or when we get Megid shooting enemies (because those bastards are annoying) So i'm stock piling, when i get over 10 in my bank then i'll start carrying them on me.

That and, i make sure not to die >.o

I wonder how people will change when megid is in the game, I can't count how many times i've been blind-sided by Megid offline and it just "habbit" to kill me instantly. will there still be a die = kick rule? Then again i can't stand that rule anyway.

[Laranas]

Megid has been in the game since day 1, but most people don't leave parum. There's a lot more monsters with it now since the update

[SolRiver]

Big fat IF and DEPENDS.

Stealing a bread for a starving friend and stealing a bread to leave the victim to starve is two totally different things.

[Niki]

On 2006-11-20 20:56, Laranas wrote:
Are other people responsible for not Star Atom'ing him? Is he responsible for running into the fray to save someone else?

2¢:

To the first question; yes they are, provided they were able to do so. The same applies to Sols.

The second question, not so easy; circumstantial at best, and it depends on the Force's range and how compromising a position the Hunter has gotten themselves into.

[Ryo_Hayasa]

On 2006-11-20 21:12, Laranas wrote:
Megid has been in the game since day 1, but most people don't leave parum. There's a lot more monsters with it now since the update



Day 1 eh? What baddies use Megid? I could've sworn that...unless i over looked them... Not counting the new missions (i haven't really touched Moatoob much at all)

Wait, the baddies on the line at A-rank used Megid didn't they? or did they...?
Ok what? Are you sure these guys have been online using megid and i've completely missed it?

[daylight129]

On 2006-11-20 21:14, SolRiver wrote:
Big fat IF and DEPENDS.

Stealing a bread for a starving friend and stealing a bread to leave the victim to starve is two totally different things.



You think so? I thought that if you got arrested for stealing bread, the judge wouldn't give a shit either way.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: daylight129 on 2006-11-21 02:06 ]</font>

[Cause_I_Own_U]

That is nobody's fault

Dont expect forces to be super ninja jedi's who can teleport on command to any group mate on his team and instantly heal you whenver you're stuned and in danger, thats more of a case of "shiet happens"

[Laranas]

On 2006-11-21 00:07, Ryo_Hayasa wrote:

On 2006-11-20 21:12, Laranas wrote:
Megid has been in the game since day 1, but most people don't leave parum. There's a lot more monsters with it now since the update



Day 1 eh? What baddies use Megid? I could've sworn that...unless i over looked them... Not counting the new missions (i haven't really touched Moatoob much at all)

Wait, the baddies on the line at A-rank used Megid didn't they? or did they...?
Ok what? Are you sure these guys have been online using megid and i've completely missed it?

A monster on B-rank Neudaiz mission (one of them in the forest) used megid. I think it was the miniboss of Rainbow Beast. And yes, I'm pretty sure it was Megid since people dropped like flies not expecting it.

And now there's monsters in Mad Beasts that use Megid and in Lab Recovery, both Parum missions.

[Nietzsche]

its going to happen, do enough relic runs as a hunter and its actually inevitable, that's why God made scape dolls
however there are exceptions, i had many wonderful forces in my Holy Ground runs yesterday that were johnny on the spot with reverser, and even if this had happened once or twice with them i wouldn't have blamed them, they had shown they were doing all they could for us, then we had one that never even cast resta..even once, nevermind reverser, if i had died with her in the group i don't care if i was being Rambo, Chuck Norris, or even William Shatner, yes i would have blamed her and cursed her ancestory...

[Natrokos]

It's everyones fault.

It's your fault if you don't have a scape or your hp is already pathetically low when you get stunned....It's also your fault for getting into that situation in the first place...(It happens yes, but i've seen some dumb people not even try to avoid an obvious stun attack.)

It's everyone elses fault for not healing the stunned guy if you are a force...Or trying to knock the mob down with rising strike if you are a hunter or ranger....(If the mob can't be knocked down try using a stun attack yourself.)

Accidents happen though and I don't flip out over deaths (Especially since i've been 10force for a looong time.)

[Reiichi]

Use dark weapons on the boss of Rainbow Beast. Fun times guaranteed!

[Shadow_Wing]

The Kaji...w/e the mini boss in Rainbow Beast can do Megid... pretty funny seeing it the 1st time

"I prolly should move...." *death*

It's very situational, I know quite recently I've done a stun death, got stunned then fire breathed by 3 of those mota fire breathing mobs, it was completely my fault for straying from the rest of the group accidentally but I still had a scrape doll, so it was all good.

Shit will hit the fan eventually, no matter how good the team is.

[Luno]

neither of your poll options answer the question.

[Pure-chan]

On 2006-11-21 10:04, Cause_I_Own_U wrote:
That is nobody's fault

Dont expect forces to be super ninja jedi's who can teleport on command ...and... instantly heal you whenver you're stuned and in danger



...what if your power level is above 9000 ...and you ARE a super ninja jedi force who can teleport on command..?



I agree that FO should make it a primary goal to offer support for their team, as much as tagging mobs and ducking one-shots. However... if FO are going to be held to such a high standard that they should never fail at support without being kicked, then HU ought to be held to the same standard as well.

Get stunned and die = Kick. Failing to step in front of an attack in which the FO is subsequently killed = Kick. Etc. ...I'm kidding of course, but expecting FO to play at a standard above that which you hold for your own play is pretty lopsided.

Having a FO in your party doesn't = PA's on autopilot. A good FO can hold your hand for you most of the time, but on the occasions where they are pinned down/healing someone else/already in the middle of a technic/trying to chase you down/etc. -- you should also know not to run out into the street in front of a moving bus.

[Arieta]

Semi on topic.

Hunters and Forces alike need to learn to use Animates (not even getting into the Sol ones), when they have status effects on them. I've seen hunters run around like a headless chicken when they get Parlazed. Same thing with forces when they get hit by silence. Why? Just use a animate and poof, there you go, status cured.

It's a good way to tell a good hunter IMO, since if they rely on the force 100% for everything they're just causing more trouble then they're worth. If I get low on health I'll pull back and heal myself or cure my own status. I'm not going to expect the force to rush in and heal me when I can do it myself. I like it when they do, but I'm not going to die relying on them. I actually had one force complain to me for curing my own status since he wanted to level up Reversa.

[Laranas]

You can't use antimates when you're stunned, sleeping, or paralyzed. If it were burns or poison there wouldn't be need for this discussion. In cases you can use antimates, there's plenty of time to heal.

[DoubleJG]

On 2006-11-21 12:47, Luno wrote:
neither of your poll options answer the question.



It's not supposed to have an answer, it's supposed to have oppinions. This is isn't a test, it's a poll.

[BooChan]

After doing a few Endrum remnant runs I live by one rule. If there is a force in the party I protect the force. Because at A rank without a force in your party your either masochistic,stupid,or an uber player. Even when I see my teamates stunned I got and rising strike the surrounding enemies.

[Reimiko]

As far as Sol Atomizer's go I don't understand why people don't sol their lone force when they get stunned. Frankly I've yet to see someone use a Sol so far. I find it very hard to believe that everyone I encounter and party with is that cheap. maybe it's ignorance I've soled stunned hunters and they don't even acknowledge that anything happened as if it wore off on it's own. and what's up with the idiots that join portal games and finish the trials is that more ignorance as well? shrug /rant off

[Arieta]

You can use Antimates when you're paralyzed actually, I do it all the time. Stunned and sleeping, well yea of course you can't.