PSU's stages seem to be missing something? A bit of analysy

[IceBurner]

I just had a nagging feeling tonight that kept me up, thinking, and this is where it's lead:

The short version:
PSU lacks any equivalent to the entirely unique locations PSO had. The giant lava room, that orange/red-colored room and the S-shaped room midway through Mine, the Waterfall overlooking Seaside, that cliff halfway up Mountain, that room in Ruin 1, or that other room in Ruin 2, or the giant dam in Central Control... almost every single sub-area had at least one absolutely unique landmark. PSU barely has anything like this.

The long version:
Interesting to note is that PSO currently has more uniquely modeled playing areas, but has received two expansions. PSU may catch up and/or surpass PSO in that regard.

If PSU's current level design is any indication, what PSU will never have more of is unique and memorable "rooms" and unique vistas (scenery around rooms).

Counting variations in stage modeling such as Forest 1/2 and Raffon Meadow/Lakeside, but discounting different "dressing" (like retextures, particle effects, lighting) PSO has 21 distinctly 3d modeled play areas and PSU has 14.

Of these 21 distinct areas in PSO, all but 3 have at least one unique room, not reused anywhere else. Cave 3 comes close with 2 rooms only used twice. All of Temple and Spaceship is repeated, a lot. Excepting Ep4 Desert's sub-stages, each outdoor sub-stage has a unique sky/far-background. Unique vistas are present in every single room that has a unique 3d model, in addition to any far-background "skybox".

In PSU, there's currently far less than 1 unique room per distinct area. Rooms seem to have been broken down into smaller pieces and almost the entirety of them, including near-background scenery (such as the cliffs with waterfalls on Parum) are recycled between the different blocks on a mission and often even other missions. Like PSO, different missions in the same area are often "dressed" with a different sky and lighting, but most rooms not outdoors on Parum lack any near-background objects at all.

So despite how very much PSU is an evolution of its predecessor, if it feels that PSO's stages had something more to them, that may be just it. PSO currently has more uniquely modeled "rooms" and near-background scenery by a large amount.

[Kirip-san]

I thought the fact that the rooms didn't have the "uniform feel" of PSO made every room in PSU seem more unique. Or maybe I'm missing something here.

~nyo

[Callous]

Nice work! I actually mean that and enjoyed the read. Kirip has a point too, though. So it's not as easy as that.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Callous on 2006-11-26 05:09 ]</font>

[A2K]

This time around, I suppose, the "unique rooms" aren't in the actual levels--they're field lobbies. The Transfer Terminal, Aurorey Viewing Plaza, Raffon Lakeshore, Lake Denes, Kugo Hot Springs... that new campsite on Moatoob, et cetera.

[mananas]

Very true after reading it... the areas are a lot bigger but each one is pretty much the same. How sad! I feel this way too. Just kind of... blah.

[Rizen]

Hmm...I do see what you mean, but PSO and PSU both are guilty of recycling stages. In PSO's case, many of the stages just have you in a different location same map. In PSU's case, it uses the same maps at different times and location.

But yeah, I do miss some of the scenery in PSO's stages, but I think PSU's lobbies in between stages make up for it. I seen some of the newer lobbies in JP version and they are beautiful. I just hope they incorporate some of the scenery into the stages a bit more.

[Dj_SkyEpic]

Some areas do have unique landmark. such as Desert Terror with it's Crecent Moon rock. Not much but eh..

[KirinDave]

One thing that is kinda neat about PSU is that the stage design is a lot better. Each stage has its own feel and flavor to the map design.

For example, the Neudaiz missions have LOTS of circles. You tend to bubble around a main room getting keys. Parum missions are fairly linear, they feel like you're taking a hike out to the woods. The later Parum missions feel like you're cris-crossing a giant thicket, but later Neudaiz missions get more of a honeycomb'ed house-to-house feel. Moatoob missions are either mazes (canyons) or massive open gladiatorial confrontations like in the desert.

This is in sharp contrast to PSO where the only time I got a really different feel was from Ruins, which actually had a few hidden nooks and crannies. Levels did have their quirks (like Caves 3 had a lot of tuning-fork-shaped rooms) but...

[Zabot]

more and more people keep comparing this game to PSO, this game is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. the storyies arent even linked, stop comparing the games, if they were taht similar, this game wouldnt be what it is now would it???

Peace

[AkiraXxx]

On 2006-11-26 09:24, Zabot wrote:
more and more people keep comparing this game to PSO, this game is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. the storyies arent even linked, stop comparing the games, if they were taht similar, this game wouldnt be what it is now would it???

Peace



Phantasy Star Online/ Phantasy Star Universe

If SEGA and ST wanted to imply that this was a completely different type of game, they should have left "Phantasy Star" out of the title.

I do agree that the PSU levels arent memorable at all. I think the killer of it is the fact that there are blocks you have to travel through. All of which are extremely short. The levels in PSO were much bigger and while they were easy to get through, they were still longer, having to hit switches in certain areas, the floor buttons etc. It envovled some team work. Now people can just ditch you and run straight through all to the end while your sitting there trying to kill everything to get the S rank for everyone.

ST could have done a much better job with thier game then this.

I think removing the time element and introducing more monsters to spawns would have helped a bit. It seems everyone is just rushing through in order to get an S rank.

[Non-Toxic-Crayons]

On 2006-11-26 09:24, Zabot wrote:
more and more people keep comparing this game to PSO, this game is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. the storyies arent even linked, stop comparing the games, if they were taht similar, this game wouldnt be what it is now would it???

Peace



Like it or not, a sequel WILL be compared to it's predecessor.

I agree with the main point of this post completely. I actually made the exact same rant in another thread when the game first came out.

[AquaFlare7]

On 2006-11-26 09:24, Zabot wrote:
more and more people keep comparing this game to PSO, this game is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. the storyies arent even linked, stop comparing the games, if they were taht similar, this game wouldnt be what it is now would it???

Peace



People compare this game to PSO just like they compare it to older Phantasy Star games. Although the gaming engine is in fact new, it is undenyable that the world is not. Besides all of that, most of the psu fanbase comes from pso. Comparisons are allowed.

[Rubesahl]

The games are comparable because 1) Same Developers 2) It is VERY CLEAR that PSU is based a lot on PSO, which isnt a bad thing. Its like saying Zelda Twilight Princess isn't comparable to Wind Waker even though they look so different, the mechanics are very similar (if not almost exact XD) its what usually happens with franchises.

Iceburner, I also recognized what you said, and its very true. But I think PSO has this idea of a more contained enviroment, which helps making the pretty cinematic rooms and scenery you mentioned. Come on, who here doesn't love Jungle in Ep2? Its amazing, so much to see. But its a very contained area... PSU on the other hand is somewhat more open (Something PSO ver1 lacked since there was only one outdoor stage and Ep2 has the Central Control Area and Temple). Not just open in the 'outdoor' sense either, but the walking space too. Also, hills and ups and downs were also missing, which is something Ep2 started to change of course. I do miss the cinematic feeling of everything being perfectly arranged but as Kirin said, the level design is much more cooler now. Just by playing story mode a bit on Parum and then going online, you know that you see the same places sometimes but it feels different since the layout is different. Now the 'new' mission Mad Beasts took me by surprise. They put monsters you found in relics, they put some badasses that are pretty hard to kill >_> and the design was very entertaining. I still don't have a clear answer as to how fast I'll know each and every corner of a stage but its been more than a month for me (I imported) and I still don't feel like everything is annoying (btw I'm not saying you said that, I meant it for me since for me Caves was greatly annoying.... and temple too... despite the fact I liked Spaceship a lot and its more monotonous XD). Also as you can see I was talking about Parum only lol I've played all the other stages too and the whole variety itself and continuity in missions helps give an even more broader feeling instead of the simple teleporter.

My take on PSU is that its more 'expansive' approach is refreshing when compared to PSO. I recognize what you said and I also feel kinda let down. But at the same time I dunno if we would be playing PSU right now if they were to combine both approaches >_> It would've been awesome if they combined both but perhaps that's something best left to a next gen system.

[Para]

Meh I really miss the PSO days where they that those very memorable unique rooms for each area.

[SpishackCola]

The waterfall room in the caves was my fav

[Randomness]

On 2006-11-26 09:36, AkiraXxx wrote:

I think removing the time element and introducing more monsters to spawns would have helped a bit. It seems everyone is just rushing through in order to get an S rank.



What time element? The bit where it says how long you've been on the mission?

Time has nothing to do with your rank. Rushing comes because people want to get to the next area faster.

[Para]

I think he's referring to the time element that determines your rank at the end of the mission. Your performance is based on monsters killed, deaths and how long you've participated in the mission. If you joined during the mission instead of before the party leader started the mission, you cannot get S Rank rewards.

To think of it... the maps themselves in PSO had more of a story element to it. The Central Control Dome, craters in subterranean desert, West and East Towers. But even so that is no excuse to not produce beautifully crafted maps like Subterranean Desert and Jungle North. The water step stairs, the crimson pathway, the dank crater hole, the shifting sands on the sides of the walls, the long paths of flowing lava on the sides of the walls, the waterfalls on each of the sides, the underground lakes, the fishes swimming outside the window, the flooded seabed floors. PSU is lacking that charm... PSU's maps are beautiful too... but they're more landscape 'ish and lack the really unique elements to its own.

One could almost say that they cut a bit of the budget on map design...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Para on 2006-11-26 11:18 ]</font>

[IceBurner]

I began playing PSO on 'cube, so those who played through all of v1, v2, and beyond are probably far more refreshed by the change of scenery in PSU than I. Whatever your history, it's up to you to decide how you feel about the stages in their respective games.

I hope no one feels I'm attacking, or promoting anything. I just had this realization while I was extremely restless last night. I wound up thinking about how I felt there was something I looking for and not finding in PSU's stages. The levels can have more variations because they're made up of pieces smaller than a whole room. At the same time, this lends a certain uniformity to every area using the same "theme". It is a tradeoff.

It is my opinion that this tradeoff currently isn't being utilized very well as I've only seen about same number of mission variations. Hopefully the major differences between Agata and Raffon Relics layouts is an indication that we'll see this really put to good use in the future, before we even get the first PSU expansion.

The crescent rock prop is used repeatedly in some missions set in the Kugu Desert, though that corner you speak of, DJ, was a nice touch http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[StillOffline]

maybe part of it was doing the quests. I'm sure a lot of people online haven't touched story mode, but in PSU, most of the cut scenes and important things that happen aren't in the field, but in PSO there were rooms where you would remember fighting Kirik in and so on (the last room in ruins 3 where you help that hunter get his 10000 or whatever kills always brought a tear to my eye). these scenes did a lot to make some of these rooms unique, and since right now the story is completely offline, online loses that epic feel.

[Vhex]

On 2006-11-26 09:41, Non-Toxic-Crayons wrote:

On 2006-11-26 09:24, Zabot wrote:
more and more people keep comparing this game to PSO, this game is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. the storyies arent even linked, stop comparing the games, if they were taht similar, this game wouldnt be what it is now would it???

Peace



Like it or not, a sequel WILL be compared to it's predecessor.

I agree with the main point of this post completely. I actually made the exact same rant in another thread when the game first came out.



Its not a sequal. Otherwise it would be called Phantasy Star Online 5, and its not. Its a new game.

[IceBurner]

Actually, the numbered episodes were expansions to the same game. A sequel is a new game, and an expansion adds stuff to an existing one.

[AeraLure]

On 2006-11-26 11:40, IceBurner wrote:
I hope no one feels I'm attacking, or promoting anything. I just had this realization while I was extremely restless last night. I wound up thinking about how I felt there was something I looking for and not finding in PSU's stages. The levels can have more variations because they're made up of pieces smaller than a whole room. At the same time, this lends a certain uniformity to every area using the same "theme". It is a tradeoff.

I dont feel that way at all. Some do, unfortunately, but I'm a designer and frankly nothing escapes criticism when I am working. Its best if its constructive. My hope is actual good discussion and criticism, as well as praise, somehow through some channel gets back to SEGA for improvements down the road. Sometimes its tough to avoid ranting or venting a bit when disappointed, but that happens also.

This was one major piece I felt was missing and I posted about it more than once also. It may actually have been in Vhex's topic but I cant remember. It would be nice to see some more of these variations again, since we run the same ground so much, and it was by and large utilized so well in PSO. I enjoyed the progressive changes as one ran through the Ruins levels, changes level to level in Caves, environment changes in Forest 2, as well as the many landmark rooms (the Ruins Great Room, the rainbow room in Caves, the waterfall to run behind in Ruins and too many others to list).


On 2006-11-26 11:40, IceBurner wrote:
It is my opinion that this tradeoff currently isn't being utilized very well as I've only seen about same number of mission variations.

I agree. Not used much right now but they can create more rooms and add them as they go. Hope they do.


On 2006-11-26 11:45, StillOffline wrote:
maybe part of it was doing the quests. I'm sure a lot of people online haven't touched story mode, but in PSU, most of the cut scenes and important things that happen aren't in the field, but in PSO there were rooms where you would remember fighting Kirik in and so on (the last room in ruins 3 where you help that hunter get his 10000 or whatever kills always brought a tear to my eye). these scenes did a lot to make some of these rooms unique, and since right now the story is completely offline, online loses that epic feel.


This is the other big part of it that I miss a bit. I'm not sure why they dont have really anything like that yet online. A story mission comes soon, and then they trickle in, but it'd be nice to have a few NPCs and a few online quests using each of the areas we have presently (and as they are added) to provide both an alternate spawn/run experience (possibly with an NPC as well) and a little context. Would be nice for those who havent (or wont) play the offline Story mode. I truly have no desire to play it - its not at all why I got PSU.

I am aware that playing it would provide some of this context but still feel a little warmth and color would be brought online by including just a touch of these sorts of things online. Might be coming, sure, but it would really enrich things a bit to simply have a few online quests and NPC interactions.

[Shaia]

This is a great post. IceBurner really makes a fantastic point.

Regardless, I enjoy PSU for what it is.

[AeraLure]

On 2006-11-26 17:00, Shaia wrote:
This is a great post. IceBurner really makes a fantastic point.

Regardless, I enjoy PSU for what it is.


Same. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[Dihnekis]

I like how it is practically 2007 and sega still can't compete with the level design from 2000. Good work sega.

Oh well, I'm addicted anyway.