A veteran's OPINION on: The Best Weapons (for each base clas

[FenixStryk]

We all know people have preferences for weapons, and that's OK. However, I prefer to go by the numbers, since they have no emotion, and thus don't lie... at least, that's what I tell myself before I go to sleep. ;p So, as a Lv49 CAST, Lv10 Ranger, Lv7 Force, and Lv6 Hunter, I think I've used everything enough to really give you a fairly informed decision. So, here goes!
_____ _ _

Hunters:
2h: Twin Dagger = Spear > Gloves** = Twin Sabre >>> Sword.
1h: Dagger = Sabre

=> Spears are, simply put, godly. They do unparalleled amounts of damage and can hit multiple opponents in a line regardless of PAs. It is also a fairly fast weapon, pretty much as fast as Sabres, maybe faster by a fraction of a second. If you had to choose only one weapon, this'd be it.

=> Twin Daggers are a Spear's rival. While weaker than Spears, they are much faster, and hit more often. Their combo is a 7-chain instead of 3. The main catch, however, is their PA. It hits every single enemy that is next to you 3 times per spin, and only uses 12 PP. Simply a must-have.

=> Gloves** are a mix betwen Spears and Twin Daggers in every aspect, but that's not the lure. Their real purpose is their above average accuracy.

**Hold it-- I'm getting some info that Sabres do more damage than Gloves and only take a slight ATA nerf compared to them. This might be worth noting, or maybe worth nothing. Consider yeself warned.

=> Twin Sabres aren't as good as you'd think. While their combo is a 6-hitter, it goes in a 1-2-3 fashion, which is rather inconvenient. It also doesn't do a whole lot of damage. However, it has one distinct advantage: crowd control. This sucker will knock opponents up and across the room like a fierce gas from Granny Anne. Worth a look-see if you're into that.

=> Finally, swords. I honestly don't see why anyone would want one. While it does hit multiple opponents without the use of PP, it's so goddang slow that you'll lose more HP than that PP is worth. Also, the PA for it is worse than the Twin Dagger PA in every aspect, no question about it. If there's one weapon you shouldn't waste your meseta on, it's this.

Sabres vs. Daggers:
=> I've tried both, and I honestly can't decide which one wins. The dagger is technically less powerful and less accurate due to its slightly lower ATP/ATA ratings, but it has a 4-hit combo compared to a 3-hit combo, and it hits faster. The PA is also 4-hits instead of 2, so it hits more often per PA use. So, technically, one could say the Dagger is better for offense, and this is true.

=> However, Sabres are still very viable weapons. While they may technically be lacking in speed, thus less damage per second, their slightly higher ATA makes them more useful against high EVA monsters. Also, the PA does its 2 hits quickly and ends with a big knockback throw into the air. This PA makes Sabres a perfect defensive weapon, and you know what they say: the best offense is a good defense.
Honestly, it all comes down to preference. I personally find Sabres more attractive, especially for Beasts... but it all comes down to what you like.

Hunter's Conclusion:
My personal preference for my palette:
1) Spear (damage/linear attack),
2) Twin Daggers (speed/circle attack),
3) Gloves (accuracy/good hybrid)
4*) Sabre/Handgun combo (defense/range)

*I personally use Sabre/Handgun over having Twin Sabres and Dagger/Handgun since it doubles as a substitute for both. However, splitting the Sabre/Handgun combo into Twin Sabres and Dagger/Handgun is also a viable choice. It all comes down to preference. Remember, this is just my opinion.
_____ _____ ___ ___ _

Now that that's out of the way, we just got to tie loose ends, aka Rangers/Forces. Yes, Rangers/Forces may be outnumbered by Hunters, but they shouldn't be left out entirely! Fortunately, I have good news! I'm covering all 3 base classes!

Ranger:
2h: Rifle = Twin Handgun >>> Shotgun
1h: Neither >>> Handgun > Mechgun

Rifle vs. Twin Handgun
=> Ah, the Rifle vs. Twin Handgun debate. It can go on and on, to be honest. Both sides have good arguments, yet each swears that their one weapon can do both jobs. Y'know what?

YOU'RE BOTH ****ING WRONG!
I used to be a Twin Handgun Fanboy, and to an extent I still am. Compared to Rifles, they take a hit in almost everything. Less ATA, less PP, less range, and weaker Status Effect levels. What could possibly be going for it?

Well, it has a better Status Effect apply rate, and since it hits twice per shot instead of once, it is actually stronger. (What does more damage, a 500 damage Rifle that hits once, or a 300 damage Twin Handgun that hits twice?)

Strangely, neither of these advantages are what make Twin Handguns a good weapon of choice. The main reason is... *drumroll, please*... ... ...STRAFE SHOOTING! You can shoot and strafe at the same time, which gives you the power to not only shoot at range, but stay at that range instead of standing still and watching enemies limp closer! This makes Twin Handguns by far the best weapon for mobs of monsters.

So, you're probably thinking, "Hey that's a good trade-off! It does more damage AND you can strafe, so why shouldn't I use it for bosses, too?" Well, I can tell you why. Strafe Shooting is not a big advantage for bosses. In fact, you might as well not have it. You see, most bosses are gigantic monstrosities of muscle and metal that lumber around the arena. This means that:

A) You can focus on them and only them. You don't have to worry about things like "Crap! Someone's gonna hit me in the back if I keep standing still and shooting!"

B) You're going to need to use 1st Person view most of the time, most notably on Onmagoug-type and Dragon-type bosses... y'know, things with wings. Wing things ;p. You can't move in 1st person, so strafing is worthless and better range can greatly impact your performance.

So, there you have it. Don't pick either or, pick both! You're going to need each one for clearly different situations.
_____ _ _

Now, onto the guns that are pretty much entirely useless. Yes, I went there.

=> Shotguns. I honestly want to defend this little guy, but it's got nothing going for it. It does very little damage, even IF you have 5 pellets and every single one hits the same person. If this is the case, the Rifle STILL does more damage over time.

Crowd Control? Not so much. While it does have multiple pellets that go in different directions, rarely will enemies line up in such a way for all pellets to contact flesh/robotics. Also, the attack animation locks all of your controls for about a second after firing, so monsters will tend to get too close too often. For less damage than a rifle and less control, it's not really worth it.

The one single thing this has going for it is its ammo efficiency. Its PP clip usually lasts 2 to 3 times as long as a Rifle. However, I honestly don't think its because it's efficient. It's more likely because it shoots so god-damned slow that your party kills the enemy before you use enough PP to do any real damage. It's that bad. No, really. It is. Stop defending it.

=> Handguns, while they are a good last resort weapon, they aren't that strong. They do little damage and their Status Effects are weak and rarely actually take effect. They are, however, very ammo efficient, and their 1st Person aiming ability gives them an advantage.

=> Machineguns are a disgrace to all Mechgun lovers of PSO. They may shoot a constant stream of bullets... but sadly, this is its very downfall. You'd think that shooting so many bullets would give it an advantage since it would thusly do a lot of damage and apply Status Effects very often. Not so much. It misses so much that any possible damage it could do based on your base ATP is negated, and it only beats the Handgun by a slim margin in terms of Status Effects.

You'd think it'd at least have a decent clipsize. Sorry, but it fails there too. It fires so much so fast that it runs out of ammo in less than a minute of use. You'd think its quick recharge rate would make that less noticable, but it only regens when you're NOT firing. I thought I could counter even that by using 6 Machineguns, but it would still run out before I finished a block... I'll go into the advantages of 6 Machineguns over 1 Machinegun some other time, and only if someone asks.

You'd think I'm an asshole with the attitude I've had throughout this section of the post, and you're right. Unfortunately, that's probably the only thing you've gotten right within the last 3 paragraphs. Machineguns suck. They do not meet even the lowest of requirements, and should be evaded like the PLAGUE. DON'T DO IT!

*smacks Beast Figunner's hand* I SAID NO!

Ranger's Conclusion:
Your arsenal should include:
1) Rifle (range/bosses)
2) Twin Handgun (strafing/mobs)
3) Spear (last resort)

I honestly think you should avoid Handguns and Mechguns, despite the fact that if you combo them with a Sabre they recharge faster. Their lack of damage simply isn't worth it. If you run out of ammo, go to town and recharge once you reach the next block. There is no shame in doing so.

Don't bother with the Shotgun. If you still want to use it even after my explanation, I'm upset with you. I may be arrogant, but I have most of my facts straight. Please reconsider.
_____ _____ ___ ___ _ _

So, we've gotten to the last class. Forces. You've wanted it, you've begged for it, and now you're gonna get it! Free advice for Forces! Yaay!

Just kidding.

I don't know a lot about forces, because I was a FOcast and pretty much abandoned TECHs like a redheaded step-child, instead using bows. I can, however, give you a vague guideline for what to do.

0) Before you even start Forcing it in PSU, you have a shopping list, and it's pretty extensive. You need every single magic spell in the game, every bow bullet, 4 rods, a wand, a sabre, and a bow. That's about 20k if you get the cheapest of everything. Get to it!
_____ _ _

1) Use rods over wands for almost everything. They have much more PP and hold more spells, so this makes them more versatile, more reliable. The slight slowdown in casting time is, in my opinion, not worth going to wands for.

2) Don't be foolish; bows are still something you need, especially for flying bosses. Have at least one on you at all times. Consider buying all 4 bullets for it too, at least until you run out of Photon Art slots, so you have the advantage there for flying bosses.

3) Stick to one spell element per rod/wand. This increases the effectiveness of all the spells mapped on the weapon, and makes it easier to pick which spells you want since it color codes your rods.

4) Don't avoid elements. Use them all. Each element has distinct advantages and disadvantages. Use each type so you gain the elemental advantage. I don't care if Diga does more damage against ground-types compared to Zonde! USE ZONDE AGAINST GROUND TYPES!

5) Heal your party often. They will love you. Besides, if they die, you get a lower mission rank. You might as well be helping yourself with that heal, because they're helping you, after all. As the saying goes, "Help me help you!"

Force's Conclusion:
My personal preference for my palette:
1) 4 Rods (switch elements accordingly)
2) 1 Bow (flying baddies)
3) 1 Sabre/Handgun combo -or-1 Spear (last resort)

There aren't really any weapons to avoid as a Force, so... yeah. Go get'um, Tiger! Oh, and heal your party when someone gets under 50% HP. Be the nice guy!
_____ _____ ___ ___ _ _

So, yeah. I'm done. Go do your thing now. Oh, and remember, even though I am a veteran (been playing since PSO DC), this is mostly opinion, and is open to interpretation. Don't take this as fact. Read it with a grain of salt. ... yeah.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: FenixStryk on 2006-11-28 16:51 ]</font>

[Pandatron]

The tiny force section makes me said. I'll type up a rant in a bit or edit this post and say my thoughts on it xD.

[FenixStryk]

On 2006-11-28 15:40, Pandatron wrote:
The tiny force section makes me sad. I'll type up a rant in a bit or edit this post and say my thoughts on it xD.LOL, yeah, it was short, but it's somewhat understandable. Funny thing is, it's still about as big as the Hunter section. Go Forces!

[Lashiens]

I disagree with your spear assessment, but that's just me, and I'll tell you why.

When I study a weapon, I could care less about it's "up front" DPS. What I'm more concerned about is min/maxing. Minimizing possible in coming damage to me, and maximizing out going damage to the enemy. The spear has just too much animation lock up during it's hits, and we know that trying to pull that off in a swarm of enemies is just bad news, much like the Sword.

I mostly play solo, so my experiences with most weapons are based on that. That's about the only thing I didn't agree with, but other than that, good jaerb. Jorb. Job.

[AlieNxxxxxxxx]

9/10 of what you say is totally false and is based on your opinion, not the numbers.

[Gazette]

1 Sabre/Wand combo.

We can't equip both at once...
But I agree a melee weapon is needed just in case.

[FenixStryk]

On 2006-11-28 15:46, AlieNxxxxxxxx wrote:
9/10 of what you say is totally false and is based on your opinion, not the numbers.Yeah, you're right. I don't know why I put that "go by the numbers" thing on the top. However, I still stand by what I've said.

[FenixStryk]

On 2006-11-28 15:47, Gazette wrote:
1 Sabre/Wand combo? We can't equip both at once... but I agree a melee weapon is needed just in case.

o_o
What in god's name gave me the idea to put that? Let me edit that out NOW. Goes to show you how much I completely spaced out.

[Lashiens]

On 2006-11-28 15:46, AlieNxxxxxxxx wrote:
9/10 of what you say is totally false and is based on your opinion, not the numbers.



I can't vouch for the rest (Ranger/Force stuff), but I can say that her assessments are NOT false in the Hunter category. I've put in over 250 hours into a single Hunter character, without changing types, and her assessments are 90% correct, in my opinion.

And I'm more than willing to provide proof to back up my claim.

[Ravennittes]

Many forces would disagree with you. If you are to have a wand combo, have a handgun. Most of my friends carry extra wands, though I just carry 5 haji's and a Baybari...

[AlphaMinotaux]

sounds about right. nice post

[-Shimarisu-]

You're wrong, and I'll tell you why you're wrong.

Each weapon is good for differenct apllications.

"Twin Sabres aren't as good as you'd think."

Yes they are. They flip shit. A lot better than a saber. They are VITAL on high ATP monster swarms, and for tipping large enemies. Anyone wanting to be a figunner should carry them. Anyone not wanting to be a figunner should carry them for support. The PA does not fling shit right across the room, it flings it up where FOs can still hit it. Only the third combo flings, and that is still useful on big enemies. Three chances in one chain to flip a big fucker right the hell over? You better believe it.

They aren't my favourite weapon, but here you are telling people not to carry them and that they aren't great. Your post made me weep, by god.

Sabers are also pretty terrible against daggers, because yes, twin sabers NEGATE them.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2006-11-28 15:55 ]</font>

[Gazette]

On 2006-11-28 15:51, Ravennittes wrote:
Many forces would disagree with you. If you are to have a wand combo, have a handgun. Most of my friends carry extra wands, though I just carry 5 haji's and a Baybari...



Pretty much, people are split on Wands/Rods.
For now the Tomirod is the undisputed champion of TAP for a Fo, but how many of us really have a whole bunch of Tomi's?

I'm more apt to believe the standard is a well ground Haji or a 5 star wand.

[Lashiens]

On 2006-11-28 15:53, -Shimarisu- wrote:
You're wrong, and I'll tell you why you're wrong.

Each weapon is good for differenct apllications.

"Twin Sabres aren't as good as you'd think."

Yes they are. They flip shit. A lot better than a saber. They are VITAL on high ATP monster swarms, and for tipping large enemies. Anyone wanting to be a figunner should carry them. Andone not wanting to be a figunner should carry them for support. The PA does not fling shit right across the room, it flings it up where FOs can still hit it. Only the third combo flings, and that is still useful on big enemies. Three chances in one chain to flip a big fucker wright the hell over? You better believe it.

They aren't my favourite weapon, but here you are telling people not to carry them and that they aren't great. Your post made me weep, by god.

Sabers are also pretty terrible against daggers, because yes, twin sabers NEGATE them.



The only reason I carry a saber or a set of twin sabers is purely for emergency weapon purposes, and nothing else. Can't stand using them versus normal enemy types (saber is okay, but I prefer to manueverabiliyt of a single dagger instead), twin sabers are just a primary tankers liability weapon, combo-wise.

I'm not a fan of getting beat on by 5-6 monsters at once.

Against single creatures, not as bad.

However, as she stated right in the very beginning of her post, this is her OPINION, and is not hard coded "fact." So I don't think you should tell her she's wrong, but that you just disagree with her opinion.

and that's my opinion. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Lashiens on 2006-11-28 15:58 ]</font>

[FenixStryk]

On 2006-11-28 15:53, -Shimarisu- wrote:
"Twin Sabres aren't as good as you'd think."

Yes they are. They flip shit. A lot better than a saber. They are VITAL on high ATP monster swarms, and for tipping large enemies.The PA does not fling shit right across the room, it flings it up where FOs can still hit it. Three chances in one chain to flip a big fucker right the hell over? You better believe it.Funny you edit out the rest of that paragraph, since I didn't entirely bag on Twin Sabres. I personally don't prefer them, but what you say is true.

I honestly feel that you can substitute Twin Sabres for a Sabre, but you think otherwise. The difference, in my opinion is not major, but to you it is, and all that really matters is what you think.

[-Shimarisu-]

Oh and this is wrong.

Hunter's Conclusion:
Your arsenal should be comprised of:
1) Spear (damage/linear attack),
2) Twin Daggers (speed/circle attack),
3) Gloves (accuracy/good hybrid)
4) Sabre/Handgun combo (defense/range).

Who are you to tell the community what they SHOULD carry? Oh, you have 10 levels in hunter? I have 40 cumalative baby, and I don't tell people what their entire arsenal should be, because I think the ONLY non-essentials are sword and saber. All the rest have decent applications. And it depends what expert class you are going for too. Why would a fighgunner be concentrating on spear? Why would wartecher - I actually barely touch spear as either of those characters. Sure it's good and all, but say, on wartecher dagger is faster, so you can switch to a tech more quickly.

It depensds what your play style is, what expert class you're going for, and which weapons you just PREFER. I'm not telling anyone what to equip. And why no love for single daggers, my god.

[Pandatron]

Commentary on Force Section:

0) Initially Forces being expensive i can concur with that, though most of us forces in the society typically just grab one AOE spell and proper rod and spam the living crap out the spell. This should keep ya set for tagging purposes and until you can afford resta which at that point everyone is happy xD. Plus in most cases typically long as you tag people don't care that your using Fire against Fire in most cases it'll be treated as a joke or your trying to max out that skill (though they really don't realize your hoarding up monies to buy all your necessary needs in the future which will run you a bit x.x). Starting a force initially not so bad in terms of cost, switching over to one the cost can be a bit of a shock sense most people don't really ease into forcedom.

1) Agreed i mean wands, with half the cost and a slightly less power it's really nice but not worth it even for the faster cast speed (not yet anywayz zomg cards ^_^). But ya always gotta go rods cause once you go rods you'll never go back.

3) { I dunno what happen to 2 in your first post but ok xD}. Forces should only melee when there in the mood or just wanna make fun and goof off. No seriously, seeing how most forces want the 4 basic elementals and a heal spell that's 95 lvls of tech raising why would you punish yourself with more... that's just crazy talk. Anywho, ya if your going to melee i'd only suggest it that if your so low on your wand that all you can do is heal with it, tag stuff if you can and run in fear. Forces are squishy, and no one likes a squishy mess.

4) Personally i carry 2 bows with me just so i could lvl the techs faster and i feel safter with two bows, though alot of people typically go 1 which is a must regardless. I personally bought all 4 elementals to give me something to lvl to pass the time, not sure how it'll effect my the 36 PA cap but will see.

4) {hehe sweet twice the 4s for twice the fun xD.}. It's weird cause this is one thing i don't do. Cause say for example i'm playing on GOF (Groove of Fantastics) and i have my 'zon' staff, having just one 'zon' staff your going to run out fast so typically i customize accordingly based on the sitution of where i'm going or where my future party wants to go, saves me time and hassle and don't have to worry about using cold on earth or something. One might think it's more hassle but once you get it down its a snap and saves you hassle. Doesn't apply anymore though seeing how i'm trying to spam to lvl techs now x.x.

5) {Back on track ^_^}. Agreed... what that's all i have to say for once.

6) There's 2 things that most people i know on my PC list remember me for; Random conversation, and no one dropping below 50% (unless there's a megid... or there feeling chuck norrisish for some reason.

Force's Conclusion Response?

1) Agreed minus the 3 elements in a single mission...*thinks* no wait nevermind your right my bad xD. Once again i beg to differ all my rods carry one of the property or whatever is needed for that sitution along with Resta and Reverser. I must have these on my each rod i don't want the reason for someone dying due to the fact i couldn't find my 'resta rod'.

2) I don't use it personally comes down to perference.

3) I still carry 2 cause bows are fun to use ^_^.

Hm... weapons to avoid ya know it's funny you say that because the one weapon you did avoid during this discussion is the pistol. I personally think your better off using a pistol then a sword as a force but that's just me.

Heal party when ya can we over 4k PP at end game you know it's not a problem (dear lord not 1% of my PP i can't sacrfice that) pif whatever xD.

I'm done feel free to comment look forward to your feedback.

La ta

Last thought, after refershing the thread no you go edit good times xD.

Edit: dear god the typos x.x *edits*.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pandatron on 2006-11-28 16:12 ]</font>

[-Shimarisu-]

I editted that paragraph because I'm hopelessly dyspraxic, and it was typoed all the hell and back.

Twin sabers are not a main weapon. NOR are they a tanking weapon. They are a SUPPORT weapon. If you don't want to support your team by carrying earth twin sabers and flipping up a vahta swarm or a Poly....what the fuck ever in relics, that's up to you.

But a saber doesn't cut it as a replacement, here's why.

1. Only hits two targets.
2. Only has 2 combos in chain.
3. Flings stuff right across the room on second combo, where FOs/RA/your tanking HU next to you can't get at it.

Wheras twin saber:

1. Hits 3 targets.
2. Has three combos in chain.
3. The first two attacks fling stuff directly into the air, where everyone can hit it.

3 targets and two chances to fling into the air, followed by one chance to send it flying.

vs.

Half the chances to fling into the air on 2/3rds the targets followed by one chance to send it flying.

And on large enemies, that equates to 3 chances to flip it vs. 2.

Now you factor in that dagger is much higher damage than saber, and why are we using saber again?

Give earth twin sabers a try on those vahra leader swarms.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2006-11-28 16:09 ]</font>

[Neith]

Twin Sabers are great. Doing an area like Hakura? Rising Crush. If it kills a robot, it'll explode harmlessly in mid-air, or just as it lands (which doesn't hurt anyone).

If you're against 5-6 monsters, Rising Crush to scatter them, pick a small group, and take a Sword to them.

I use Twin Sabers as my main weapon, I personally find them FAR more useful than Twin Daggers, which don't have any crowd control at all until the Lv21 PA, from what I've heard. Renkai Buyou-zan is an efficent PA, but I think a HU's role in PSU revolves heavily around crowd control now.

Twin Sabers are far more useful than a lot of weapon types, hell, even if only for Rising Crush.

Oh, and Sword is good too. High ATP, (Tenora B-Rank has what, 378?), good crowd control with Tornado Break Lv1-20. I use one a lot. Yes, I prefer Spears, but if a mob is a bit spread out, trying to hit multiple enemies with one is hard- Tornado Break and Sword attacks have a wide-arc swing. If you're getting hit too much, something's wrong, or you're trying to be clever using one against fast enemies.

Slow weapon against fast enemy= http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_disapprove.gif

Used right, Sword and Twin Saber are way up the list.

[Tetsuro]

Rods do not do more damage than wands, my Canara has about the same Tech points as my Hajirod. The only reason rods are better is due to the fact that they have more PP and can hold 4 spells. However, once cards are introduced, it will all be a matter of preference.

[FenixStryk]

On 2006-11-28 16:00, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Oh and this is wrong. ... ... ...god.*sigh* What part of the title, "A veteran's OPINION" don't you understand? Okay, so I used the word "should". You got me. But to go so far as that? That's really not something I was expecting... at least, not from the average PSOW user.

Guess you're the exception.

In the Sabre vs Dagger section, I said it was a tie and came down to preference. You took the word should way out of proportion and thought my words were supposed to be set in stone and obeyed like the laws of science. All I'm doing is giving my opinions and backing them up with why I feel that what I do is right.

There's always two sides of the coin. Day and night. Love and hate. To say that me picking night gives you the right to shun me and try to show me the light might as well make you God. ARE you God?

[Kaloa]

I don't like the whole one element per rod deal. I'm sure it works well for some people, but I do alot better and feel alot better having everything I need for a particular area on one rod. I wouldn't like having to change rods multiple times per room, plus, I like having resta and reverser on all my rods. If I'm attacking with diga or something and I see somebody on my team take a big hit, I want to be able to heal them as soon as I recover from casting diga. I don't want to have to wait to finish, then have to go into my palette and select a new weapon, and wait another second or two for it to load before I can heal. By then my teammate could very well be dead.

I've also never ever had any use at all for a saber or a handgun. It hit flying enemies with my bow, I break boxes with my technics, and I pay enough attention to my PP to make sure that I don't run out on all my rods halfway through a block. It shouldn't ever come to that. If you can't heal you're not going to be of much use to your team anymore.

As for the whole rod vs. wand issue, I wouldn't be so quick to say that one is better than the other. I've heard good arguments for both weapons, and what it really seems to come down to is your playing style. Different people will be more effective with different set-ups. I'm better with rods, but I've seen people kick major but with wands, so I would never try to tell them that they should be using rods instead.

[-Shimarisu-]

You're hardly a veteran, the game has only been out 1 month in US and three in Japan.

[KirinDave]

It amazes me that people still don't understand the difference between Wands and Staves (canes & rods) for PSU, especially after so many people have said it over and over.

Let me repeat, in convenient list format!

With the current equipment and spells available to PSU:
1. Rods are for efficiency.
2. Canes are for damage.

[Bleemo]

Felix, do us a favor and change this:

"Your arsenal should be comprised of:"

To this:

"I suggest your arsenal should be comprised of:"

My arsenal will be comprised of weapons I choose to use. Thank you.

Your Twin Saber analogy was off, which was already pointed out.

I'm assuming your guide was meant for the three core classes we have available to us now, so I'm not going to begin pointing out how some weapons are better left alone for expert classes.

Oh, and I use Diga/Foie against ground types. Why? Because it kills faster. Now, I suggest you rework your Force section especially to make them all suggestions rather than try to make them sound as if they are facts.

[Cross]

On 2006-11-28 16:08, Tetsuro wrote:
Rods do not do more damage than wands, my Canara has about the same Tech points as my Hajirod. The only reason rods are better is due to the fact that they have more PP and can hold 4 spells. However, once cards are introduced, it will all be a matter of preference.


No, base TP on a Canara is 317, and base TP on a Hajirod is 364. Granted, it's not a mind-blowing difference, but it's there. Only Tenora wands have comparable TP to Rods of the same rarity.

The difference is mostly rendered moot by the faster cast speed on a Wand compared to a Rod, though (also eventually, being able to stack four techs of the same element onto a Rod will give it a multiplier advantage).
If you want to maximize as a Force at this point in the game, I'd say to have a Longbow for stuff that's tough to nail with techs, four Rods for general play, and for bosses bring a Tenora Wand for the increased cast speed along with TP on par with a Rod.

That all gets more or less upended as soon as Expert classes are in, though, and that's probably in like two days, so it's not really important.

Edit: More on topic, I'll go ahead and say that you're selling the Shotgun way short. It's not too impressive right now, but it gains the most benefit from increasing your ATP out of all the weapons in the game, so after we start seeing people approaching level 60 and such, the Shotgun starts really kicking ass.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cross on 2006-11-28 16:18 ]</font>

[Lashiens]

Since this entire thread looks like it's teetering on the edge of a mini-flame war almost, can I start?

You're all stupid doo-doo heads.

Oh Cosby. What a mini-genius.

[Parn]

On 2006-11-28 15:39, FenixStryk wrote:
=> Spears are, simply put, godly. *snip* If you had to choose only one weapon, this'd be it.
Not on your life. I'd take a one-handed dagger over a spear any day of the week. The current spear photon art has no knockback effect whatsoever, which is very important for the way I play.


=> Twin Daggers are a Spear's rival. *snip* The main catch, however, is their PA. It hits every single enemy that is next to you 3 times per spin, and only uses 12 PP. Simply a must-have.
Not true at all. Sure, the photon art has a 360 degree attack radius, but the first part of the photon art hits the two closest targets, and the second part hits the three closest targets. Watch where the numbers proc.


=> Gloves are a mix betwen Spears and Twin Daggers in every aspect, but that's not the lure. Their real purpose is their godly accuracy.
Um... no? Take for example, the Tenora Works line of weapons at 5*. I'd hardly call having 2 more ATA than a saber of the same rank "godly accuracy". And for the record, a saber of the same rank has 160 more ATP.


=> Twin Sabres aren't as good as you'd think. While their combo is a 6-hitter, it goes in a 1-2-3 fashion, which is rather inconvenient. It also doesn't do a whole lot of damage.
Huh? Comparing 5* Tenora Works weapons, the Twin Sabers have 10 less ATA but come with 27 more ATP. How can you be supportive of Fists yet call Twin Sabers weak? It hits with reasonable speed, and twin sabers have a much wider attack arc and range than fists.


=> Finally, swords. I honestly don't see why anyone would want one. While it does hit multiple opponents without the use of PP, it's so goddang slow that you'll lose more HP than that PP is worth. Also, the PA for it is worse than the Twin Dagger PA in every aspect, no question about it. If there's one weapon you shouldn't waste your meseta on, it's this.
The is the only one I agree with, if only because the current photon art sucks. When the second photon art releases, this weapon class will be a lot more worthwhile to use, but as it currently stands, spears are a far better choice.

Regarding the daggers versus sabers, I'll take a dagger over it any day of the week. The photon art, especially the second half, is phenomenal and very easily controlled.

[-Shimarisu-]

Force using nothing but grinded up GRM and Tenora wands and ONE high PP rod purely for resta here.

By god wands are better, you should use them. Unless your connection is shitty and you can't switch fast.

My arsenal is set up like this.

Wand with element
Wand with element and resta.
Wand with element
Rod or wand with resta and reverser. I switch palette a lot so it varies.
Wand with element
Bow with blah blah element.

KEEPING DA WANDS WITH DA RESTA NEXT TO DA NUKING WANDS AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE FOR EASY SWITCH=WIN




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2006-11-28 16:24 ]</font>

[Randomness]

On 2006-11-28 16:15, Cross wrote:

On 2006-11-28 16:08, Tetsuro wrote:
Rods do not do more damage than wands, my Canara has about the same Tech points as my Hajirod. The only reason rods are better is due to the fact that they have more PP and can hold 4 spells. However, once cards are introduced, it will all be a matter of preference.


No, base TP on a Canara is 317, and base TP on a Hajirod is 364. Granted, it's not a mind-blowing difference, but it's there. Only Tenora wands have comparable TP to Rods of the same rarity.

The difference is mostly rendered moot by the faster cast speed on a Wand compared to a Rod, though (also eventually, being able to stack four techs of the same element onto a Rod will give it a multiplier advantage).
If you want to maximize as a Force at this point in the game, I'd say to have a Longbow for stuff that's tough to nail with techs, four Rods for general play, and for bosses bring a Tenora Wand for the increased cast speed along with TP on par with a Rod.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Cross on 2006-11-28 16:18 ]</font>


Honestly, 4 rods, a bow, and a cane/handgun pair gives plenty of PP usually. I usually treat the wand as another rod, though... I like having Resta, Reverser, AND Diga available at once on bosses, since status effects are abundant. But there is merit in using a wand there, if you can make it last the whole battle, but resta just sucks the life out of stuff at 40 a cast, so I couldn't justify putting it on a wand.

[Choja]

All weapons have their uses (Yes, Fenix, that even includes Machine Guns! ;D) in one situation or another. It's just there's more abundance of settings where, say, a spear would be required for the most efficient destruction of targets than a sword or fists.

If this is a guide, then I must have a really messed up palette. Wand/Handgun, Rod, Rod, Bow, Spear (the most craptular!), and some absurdly weapon I'm not supposed to be carrying around in a serious mission like my Dark Fluorescent Bulb.

Constructive criticism is encouraged, and your flamethrowers, however, AREN'T. Okie dokie.

[Gamemako]

Last time I checked, the double dagger PA hits the three nearest targets 3 times. I used it for whacking big things offline. Get close and PA for 9 hits. The second combo only hit twice, so I avoided using it -- not worth it IMO. Also, the second double dagger PA is zomgwtaffhax. Not as quite good against mobs, but much better against one or two foes.

And speaking of the great twin saber PA, Rising Crush, it's one of the most balanced PAs in the game. At level 11, you can combo any number of mobs into the air. The damage is good and the effect is unbeatable -- pound them at your leisure while they float around or lie on the ground defenseless. They aren't knocked away (where you can't hurt them) and they are completely disabled.

[FenixStryk]

On 2006-11-28 16:10, -Shimarisu- wrote:
You're hardly a veteran, the game has only been out 1 month in US and 3 in Japan.Quote with a Quote Rebuttal:

Fenix wrote:
So, as a Lv49 CAST, Lv10 Ranger, Lv7 Force, and Lv6 Hunter, I think I've used everything enough to really give you a fairly informed decision. ... ...Oh, and remember, even though I am a veteran (been playing since PSO DC), this is mostly opinion, and is open to interpretation. Don't take this as fact. Read it with a grain of salt. ... yeah.



Bleemo wrote:
Felix, make [your suggestions] all suggestions rather than try to make them sound as if they are facts.Done. At least, for now. c_c;;



Parn wrote:
[insert: long witted explanation why Sabres and Twin Sabres completely WTFpwn Gloves]Wow. I'd better check this out.


So, yeah. Thanks for the critiques, just try not to mix in the lighter fluid. It tends to start a flame.

Oh, and I'm updating the initial post when edits are necessary. Expect to see it change slightly throughout the thread's life.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: FenixStryk on 2006-11-28 16:39 ]</font>

[Parn]

Heh, don't mind me if I came off as abrasive, because I didn't intend it to be that way.

[Gazette]

Copy/pasted my wand-rod argument from the last "This weapon is best for X class" thread, just to save time:


People say Rods have an absolute advantage over wands without showing any real numbers.

The fact is your damage output is gimped when it comes to a Rod+Me/Quick versus a Wand+Gi/Magic.
Now I'm going on the assumption that both weapons have been fully ground, of equal Rank/Stars, and that you're using the strongest wand possible.
What we can accurately judge now is a 5-Star Rod+10 (510TAP)
And a Tenora Works 5-Star Wand+10 (505TAP)

Assuming you're using Me/Quick, you just dropped your Rod's Base TAP by 30, bringing it to (480) only to gain the speed of a Wand.
Meanwhile the wand user equips a Gi/Magic to bump the base Wand TAP to 545 while still holding the same cast speed as a quickened Rod.

Even an unquickened rod with a gi/magic isn't going to outdo a Wand with the same the same unit equipped due to the Rod's low cast speed.

Still, people will bitch and complain that Rods could never be outdone by a wand, but the fact is they're spouting bull without having any type of numbers to back up their assumption.

Now on the subject of longevity, a Rod is clearly going to outdo a Wand, hands down.
But as it stands, a Wand will still outdo a Rod within the time its PP reserve allows.

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2006-11-28 16:38, Parn wrote:
Heh, don't mind me if I came off as abrasive, because I didn't intend it to be that way.



I didn't either Parn, please can you tel me how you do it, I want to be all nice and have lots of friends too. :(((((((((((((((

[Gazette]

People don't like me cuz I swear. T_T
Problem found! Oh wait, I sorta swear too.
I'll be your friend I suppose.

[Bleemo]

Honestly, as long as they are just suggestions the post isn't bad. Having played PSU since launch, I agree and disagree on some of your views. A good read for newer players.

[Remedy]

"1) Use rods over wands for almost everything. They have much more PP and hold more spells, so this makes them more versatile, more reliable. The slight slowdown in casting time is, in my opinion, not worth going to wands for. "

You win at playing a Force.

[-Shimarisu-]

Haha Remedy ur dum lol

[FenixStryk]

Looks like all the replies stopped once I cleared up the fact that this is entirely based on my opinion. Damn. I kinda miss the sudden flood of rebuttals.

[FenixStryk]

On 2006-11-28 17:03, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Haha Remedy ur dum lolAnd this is constructive, HOW? Back up your points. As far as I'm concerned:

Rod:
+ More PP
+ More Spell Slots
+ Slightly More Damage (Yes, I went there)

Wand:
+ Faster Cast Speed
+ One-handed

You're telling me that faster casting speed beats all of that? You must be daft.

[Gazette]

That faster cast speed is supplemented by equal TAP when ground right.
No one said it was going to outlast the Rod, but if you're going to go all out on say a boss.
The Wand is going to outdo the Rod considering your PP will last that entire battle.

[-Shimarisu-]

Yes, I am telling you it beats all of that because:

PP doesn't matter dick, oh look I have twice as many wands, I can palette switch.
Spell slots don't matter dick if you're fast and skilled at switching. If you're not, then poor you.
Slightly more damage? No. Because wands are faster, and besides Tenora and GRM grinded up really close that gap.

I can go duo with a newman FO (they all use Rods) and add up our exp gained if you want? Bear in mind I'm human and I get MOST the kill exp in Grove, even with a bunch of newmen around.

That's assuming the newman uses reverser ands resta as much as me. Most of them don't, even with their ubaaaar rods.

[McLaughlin]

I'll use my damned Sword if I want to.

[Bleemo]

On 2006-11-28 17:19, Zeta wrote:
I'll use my damned Sword if I want to.


AND YOU KEEP SUCKING MISTER LOL

[Alisha]

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

=> Finally, swords. I honestly don't see why anyone would want one. While it does hit multiple opponents without the use of PP, it's so goddang slow that you'll lose more HP than that PP is worth. Also, the PA for it is worse than the Twin Dagger PA in every aspect, no question about it. If there's one weapon you shouldn't waste your meseta on, it's this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The is the only one I agree with, if only because the current photon art sucks. When the second photon art releases, this weapon class will be a lot more worthwhile to use, but as it currently stands, spears are a far better choice.

Regarding the daggers versus sabers, I'll take a dagger over it any day of the week. The photon art, especially the second half, is phenomenal and very easily controlled.


i hope you arent talking about spinning break because that PA is horrible and terribly inaccurate. i would take lvl 21+ spinning break over it any day and coincidently lvl 21+ spinning and armor break are the same number of hit's,but spinning break i think doesnt get a knickback effect and armor does i'd have to check again to be sure.

er twin daggars are good but not that good. dus robado destroys renkai buyou zan in both damage and range. lvl 30 rekai buyou zan has 155% attack and 90% accuracy. dus robado has 178% attack well before lvl 30. infact sadly dus robado out damages my nanoblast >.>
moubu zan for twin daggars is excellent for single target dame i swear it hits like 9 times with the full combo but eats tons of pp

sabers are great for single target damge with gravity strike. its an 8 hit pa with a knockback effect.


=> Shotguns. I honestly want to defend this little guy, but it's got nothing going for it. It does very little damage, even IF you have 5 pellets and every single one hits the same person. If this is the case, the Rifle STILL does more damage over time.



dead wrong! the only gun that stands a chance of out damaging the shotgun is the grenade launcher. you could do 300 per shot witha rifle and 100 pershot with a shotgun and the shotgun would still put the rifle to shame. 300 vs 500 lol. heck i'd venture to say even the crossbow could out damage a rifle at lvl21+ and possibly even the longbow since it ignores defence.

[Alisha]

another note on swords the range on them vs daggars is excellent on both normal attacks and tornado break.

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2006-11-28 17:24, Alisha wrote:
Offline mode.



Yeah.

[Alisha]

On 2006-11-28 17:26, -Shimarisu- wrote:

On 2006-11-28 17:24, Alisha wrote:
Offline mode.



Yeah.




fuck off seriously. how about instead of being a bitch and just saying offline you tell me how its different.it's not as if i'm unwilling to learn.

[PJ]

On 2006-11-28 17:19, Zeta wrote:
I'll use my damned Sword if I want to.



You and me Zeta, you and me.

Tornado Break is awesome. Spears can go die.

[Zorafim]

I wish to comment on this thread, but my experience of PSU is limited to huntering, due to both my and extra mode's disdain for the other classes. Also, while huntering, I only used spears and daggers. However, I used sword on Ethan and dual Claws on a lower level extra mode character. I found them to be suck compared to spears.

Why do claws have to suck again? Why?

[KiteWolfwood]

Since you actually said that this was only your opinion, I won't bite your head off. Everyone has their own personal taste. I do agree though that spears and twin daggers are godly. Only downfall of spears is that they are extremely deficient. Also even though the normal combo is fast it does have a delay at the beginning and end of it. That alone can get you into trouble. Also spear has no knock down so you can find that line of enemies you are skewing now encircling you and coming in for the kill. I don't think I have anything bad to say about twin daggers. Very pp efficient. Good overall 1v1 and mob skills.

Ah yes Rifle vs Twin handguns. Rifle is for SE'ing mid bosses and the like since it gets the highest SE level. Also it has range needed to safely snipe bosses from a distance. Twin handguns are good for tagging mobs and applying SE just to bug the hell out of enemies. I always carry 2 Rifles and 3 pairs of Twin handguns with me.

Shotguns have one effect that is good which is that it can fire 5 bullets with each bullet having the chance to inflict a SE PB and the damage is 5x(base atp+weapon atp) at PB. But being point blank to an enemy is very dangerous and can get yourself killing stuffed animals if you know what I mean (Scape dolls for the clueless). So in the end Twin handguns take the place of spamming SE on enemies. Sure Fortegunner have S rank in Shotguns but that does not merit using a shotgun and forcing the Force to have to waste precious pp on you.

Don't need to get into the other stuff since you covered it pretty much.

[Kanore]

I use all Rods. I miss sometimes when spamming, and no matter what game I heal in, I always run out of whatever the 'mana' stat is called faster than anyone. Call it problems with conservation, but I'm efficient with Rods just fine.

Oh, and

Fenix wrote:
So, as a Lv49 CAST, Lv10 Ranger, Lv7 Force, and Lv6 Hunter, I think I've used everything enough to really give you a fairly informed decision. ... ...Oh, and remember, even though I am a veteran (been playing since PSO DC), this is mostly opinion, and is open to interpretation. Don't take this as fact. Read it with a grain of salt. ... yeah.

An opinion from me:
That gives you no right to call yourself a 'veteran', as it throws people off to thinking you're a 'PSU' veteran. PSO and PSU are different, and being a veteran in PSO doesn't mean you know everything in PSU.

Leave the whole 'veteran' shit out next time. You're not impressing anyone.

[Warnen]

I was a Twin dagger man when I 1st started to play then moved to the Spear, currently I use 6 Halberts 1 of each photon http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

Offline I fount the Twin Sabers to be more useful on the Mid boss type baddies then the twin daggers, kept them stunned so they could do a special attack. Online I don't use them anymore (got the PA to 12 but switched to spears), they are so slow and cause you to get hit a lot more.

[Lashiens]

On 2006-11-28 17:24, Alisha wrote

dead wrong! the only gun that stands a chance of out damaging the shotgun is the grenade launcher. you could do 300 per shot witha rifle and 100 pershot with a shotgun and the shotgun would still put the rifle to shame. 300 vs 500 lol. heck i'd venture to say even the crossbow could out damage a rifle at lvl21+ and possibly even the longbow since it ignores defence.




I disagree with this summation, based purely on one fact:

All 5 of those bullets with a shotgun have to hit in order for that 500 to count. So REALISTICALLY speaking, in a situation of 1 bullet = 1 mob, the rifle wins. And that's the way most situations play out.

Now, if you're a ranger who's gungho and stands right in the middle of a group of mobs trying to pull off that complicated technique, more power to you. But caveat emptor, chances are you're going to get the crap smacked out of you trying to pull it off.

Most people would easily take the 300 single, more accurate shot, with little reprecussions, than to take the 500 up close and risky shot with HUGE consequences for failure.

[Zorafim]

Warnen, um, your sig... That must be one of the most random things I've seen. What is that from?

[Carbinne]

I love my shotgun loaded with shock bullets. It is my shockgun. And it is great. If you shoot things in the back then it's generally not very dangerous on your behalf. Also we don't have 5 spread bullets. While a close up for 400 or so might not give the same DPS as an equivalent rifle, the game is about more than DPS. Granted, you can put some better statuses on stuff with a rifle, but let's face it, if you use a rifle on everything you're running out of ammo quick. But there are enemies where you'd rather be far away from (Gohmon) especially when you have mobs of them running about. Rifles have a good home there.

Incidentally, one advantage of the mechgun is it costs pennies to recharge. Empty 4 star (+3) Repeater doesn't cost more than 20 meseta or so to recharge. I don't use mechs myself though.

I like using my dark sword thing on those hopping Golmaros or whatever, and it puts some harm onto mobs of stuff in neudeiz relics. Good damage and nice range, especially on the PA. Aside from that the pp runs out in a minute and it's slow. I use the sword in the two relics sites for light monsters and that's it. Serves its purpose well there.

Also I used to think that twin sabers were junk at first until I started spamming their PAs and throwing monsters around like they were paper. Plus, nice accuracy, too. I ran out of PP on my usual 5 star twin sabers so I equipped some two star twin sabers I picked up somewhere and equipped the PA. Still connected with stuff in neudeiz relics and still sent them off their feet. Tengohgs are funny when all they can do is fall down, get up only to fall down again.

Oh yeah, I kept running into people selling Ryo-Derans for like 4 star prices. 2k? 3k? 4k? For a five star weapon? How could I say no. That's a good enough reason for me to start using a weapon -- practically stole it from a player shop. Ha!

[Kent]

On 2006-11-28 17:30, Alisha wrote:

On 2006-11-28 17:26, -Shimarisu- wrote:

On 2006-11-28 17:24, Alisha wrote:
Offline mode.



Yeah.




fuck off seriously. how about instead of being a bitch and just saying offline you tell me how its different.it's not as if i'm unwilling to learn.



Strangely enough, there's an almost completely different form of balance for offline mode, than there is for online mode. For example, Hunter/Ranger can use Wands offline... But online, any casting weapons (as well as Longbows) are Force-only. And then the stat gain, weapon stats, enemy stats, and all of that, are completely different (like melee weapons, fot instance, will recover 1 PP/tick offline... Yet some recover 5 or 6 per tick online).

It's like everything but the graphics and basic game flow are different, when you play online. :/

[Merumeru]

XD really interesting read, wish the fact that you pasted 'OPINION JUST MY OPINION' everywhere would ward away the flames though :3

[Warnen]

On 2006-11-28 18:12, Zorafim wrote:
Warnen, um, your sig... That must be one of the most random things I've seen. What is that from?




Some anime I forget the name now, had to change it cause it was to big.

[Kent]

Oddly enough, if person A's opinion differs from person B's opinion, one of them is automatically wrong for having his opinion.

By the way: Spears are the best Hunter weapons, with honorable mentions going to Dagger/Twin Dagger/Saber/Twin Saber/Knuckles/Sword. For Forces, Longbows are a must, and Wands or Rods are okay, depending on which you prefer, and which expert type you're going to use (Yohmei wands have a plentiful supply of PP). For Rangers, Mechguns are pretty useful if you actually know how to use them, as are shotguns - Rifles are great for hitting weakpoints for massive damage, and Dual Handguns are great for attacking while moving. Handguns make a pretty good sidearm, regardless.

Now, let's see how wrong my opinion happens to be.

[-Shimarisu-]

Yohmei wands suck.

[Vorpal]

I agree with you on Spears. Godly damage, and screw knockback. Won't matter if you get them from behind, and are quick and nimble.

Double Daggers are meh to me, but I like single daggers.

Bow's are one of the best ranged weapons in my IMO, don't know about the unreleased ones.

I'll be forced to use wands as a Wartecher, and wand speed goes great with Gi techs.

If a speed enhancer comes out, Swords will be more useful in my eyes. I used them until I tried out the spear.

[Kent]

On 2006-11-28 19:05, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Yohmei wands suck.


It's good to see that you have your opinion, too.

[McLaughlin]

Scratch my previous statement.

I'll use whatever I choose (not CHOSE Lou, CHOOSE!). Twin Sabers and Swords FTW!

Spears can go crawl under a rock.

[EJ]

umm...not going to read all the other post but thought the concept of veteran is doing something for years not just for 1 - 3 months ;3

Just my opinion. ^.~

[Zorafim]

On 2006-11-28 18:51, Warnen wrote:

On 2006-11-28 18:12, Zorafim wrote:
Warnen, um, your sig... That must be one of the most random things I've seen. What is that from?




Some anime I forget the name now, had to change it cause it was to big.



Ah, shoot. That was funny.

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2006-11-28 19:11, Kent wrote:

On 2006-11-28 19:05, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Yohmei wands suck.


It's good to see that you have your opinion, too.



Nah, they really do. High PP but pitifully low TAP. It'd be interesting to see what they gain from grinding, but I doubt they gain as much as GRM and Tenora.

The trick is not to worry about PP, but to carry lots of weapons and switch out. And this is MUCH easier for rangers and forces to do than hunters. Because they don't have to worry about synthing lots of weapons with good %s.

[Dusk21]

For ranger I couldn't disagree more. First off making this comparison for ranger is near on impossible as each weapon has its own distinct purpose really. If you were to make some sort of comparison it'd have to be much much more complicated.

Damage:
2h: Shotgun > Dualies > Rifle
1h: Handgun > Machinegun

The fact of the matter is shotguns at point blank range deal punishing damage to that target. If I'm using the opposite element I'm looking at around 105-125 damage per bullet depending on the mob and equipment quality (at level 50, RA 10, A rank), personally I'm usually in the range of 115-135. If you have the opportunity to hit multiple enemies with your spread you can put that damage up even higher, hitting 6-7 times with a spread is not uncommon, and hitting 8+ times isn't too difficult with certain enemies, the max being 12 IIRC with the current bullet cap. You can go on and on about it being a more dangerous weapon but its no more dangerous than any hunter weapon, and its really not that difficult to use the gun properly and not get hit that often.

Dualies deal awesome damage as well, with the advantage of mobility. I don't use dualies quite as much anymore but for the correct element I'm in the area of 120-145 a hit depending on the enemy.

Rifles have the highest consistancy, but the lowest damage at around 210-245 per hit but only single hits , low mobility, and a low firing rate. Don't get me wrong I use rifles a hell of a lot, probably the most but its not what I reach for if I want to deal the highest damage I can. Of course there are exceptions but I'll get to that later on.

Handguns are perfectly adequate with damage, high mobility and a reasonably fast firing rate (between dualies and rifles). Correct element and I'm looking at about 140-160 a hit. Also of note since this category includes machineguns is that handgun ammo can and most likely will last a good amount of time.

Machineguns are worthless, the damage they deal is good however to deal this sort of damage you need to stand there and hold in the fire button, depleting the ammo at an absurd rate. For the Tenora MG the ammo lasts approximately 18 seconds, and the regen rate is poor as well (far more notable and important for 1 handers). The GRM MG is slightly less garbage due to slightly higher ammo reserves but still not really worth using. Also of note is a 'glitch' or something I stumbled upon, where after firing the MG for a little while and then stopping, upon watching for the first regen tick instead of regenning pp it would lose in the region of 60-120pp.

Now onto status effects, however this is sort of complicated.
Status Effects:
2h: Shotgun >= Dualies > Rifle
OR
2h: Rifle >> Dualies, Shotgun
1h: Handgun > Machinegun

Now personally I feel as if shotguns have the highest application rate, point blank 4 bullets at once have a very good chance of inflicting your SE of choice, or if you have the opportunity for a large hit number per shot it'll give you the highest chance of inflicting on something or other.

Duals have about the same perhaps slightly lower application rate than shotguns, and both of course have the same levels so thats moot for this comparison

Now rifles. For medium to small enemies rifles aren't really the best for the job, with certain exceptions depending on your purpose. Only one possible target unlike shotguns, far lower bullet output than dualies. The higher SE levels inflict more often on a per bullet basis however. For large enemies right now rifles are the only option to inflict SEs, period. In this rifles obviously beat out the other weapons. For Burn and soon Virus effects rifles are also superior in every way, the power of a level 4 burn or virus cannot be argued. On large enemies the ability to inflict these SEs can very easily take you from dealing little damage to dealing more than the whole rest of your party. Currently with the level 3 burn you will deal 20% of the enemy's hp in 10 seconds once applied, and for things like buildabears and the like thats massive amounts of damage (703 a tick IIRC, +/- 2). For silencing things I would go out on a limb and say rifles are the best at that as well usually, due to the higher SE level to compensate for most casters' higher SE resistance. Thats arguable however, and the others can still be quite effective at the job.

Handguns once again are far superior than MGs, the fact of the matter is level 2 SEs are infinitely superior to level 1 SEs (a far far larger difference than level 2 -> 3) in duration and most importantly application rate. Once again the rate of fire on handguns is fairly good, and with the current cap of level 2 on HGs the rate is worse than duals and shotties, but I find it to be slightly (ever so slightly) better than rifles on things with an average SE resistance. Once we can get to 21+ on bullets HGs will have level 3 SE levels, which will make them even more effective in application. I'd estimate they'd be similar if slightly worse than duals (with shotguns taking the lead clearly at that point with all 5 bullets)

MGs once again are utter garbage, level 1 SEs are pointless. Totally disregard the earth and ice bullets because for earth you will never, ever silence a caster I can guarantee that (I've tried, oh have I tried) except for some ageeta (oh boy). For ice you might freeze things but a good 75% of those freezes will break instantly and the ones that don't will last tops 1.5-2 seconds. For the other two the application rate is still dismally poor and the duration equally as poor. Once again the ammo is a major issue - the number of SEs you'll get over the course of a whole gun is laughable.

[Remedy]

On 2006-11-28 15:51, Ravennittes wrote:
Many forces would disagree with you. If you are to have a wand combo, have a handgun. Most of my friends carry extra wands, though I just carry 5 haji's and a Baybari...The forces that would disagree (e.g.: The ones that use wands) are the idiotic ones, then.

Protip: Slightly faster casts do NOT make up for over 500 lost PP

[-Shimarisu-]

LOL you must be poor, Remedy.

How freaking difficult is it to switch palette? Shit I do it while I'm running down corridors.

[Bleemo]

Wands are so much better than rods, in my opinion.

Faster cast rate, ability to tag everything with a handgun, and able to close into mobs by stunning them with a handgun to cast a point blank Diga/Foie for accuracy.

My Force's palette only consists of one rod, and I am always finding it a nuisance.

[VelosofLight]

Well, there are different ways to play Force, just like there are different kinds of Hunters and Rangers, and with Expert Classes, it'll just get even more complicated. Cope and deal.

[ViciousXUSMC]

1 Sabre/Wand combo.

We can't equip both at once...
But I agree a melee weapon is needed just in case

lvl 49 force..... I have NEVER touched a meele weapon the entire game ever.

Thats how a real force plays http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif When I become a Fotecher and lose ATP, HP, DEF ect but gain 20% reduced cost to spells and lvl 30 spells thats even more a reason to be pure caster.

I also disagree with rods being suppioror. Its very much situaton dependant. Wands destroy the dps of a rod, so they are great for taking out strong mobs or bosses, also great for solo and lvling techs. Then dont forget you have a gun to tag enemies with and break boxes open all wich are invaluble.


My personal setup is
Hajirod +4
Hajirod +4
Cane +4 / Autogun
Cane +4 / Autogun
Hajirod+4
5* Bow (forget name) +2


The canes are there for my dps and for hitting quick moving enemies, also good for parties that kill fast so you can get your hits in and dont need alot of spells open at one time (like healing and reverser for chaos areas)

The Hajirods are there for the PP and for being able to heal/dps at the same time when there is alot of chaos (think Temple A or somthing where its cast/heal/reverser constantly and swiching weapons would be a bad idea)

The bow is there for attacking flying stuff and also as my meele damage vs things that just dont die to spells (the guards in the Temple again)

Then about the idea of getting all 4 bow bullets. It wont hurt anything to have them I guess but I have never needed anything but the ICE one since the bosses that fly seem to be fire based most of the time and if you plan to be a "pure force" there are 36 spells.... there is also a limit of 36 skills max before you have to delete one to put the new skill in your ablities. So 4 bow bullets means.... 4 less spells. Unless you just delete them later but that means all the lvling you did with them was waisted.

The whole "best weapon" idea for a force is pretty much void anyways because our weapons are honestly our techs, the wand/rod that we hold our spells on is mearly the instrument of wich we unleash our weapons. Like said above each has its use and time that it is better than the other.

Its up to the force to know wich spell is best to use and when. Thank god we get new spells soon even if it is just the Gi-Spells....

I sit patently by waiting for my buffs/debuffs and some light/dark spells (ramegid will be very nice for relics)


Edit: Just want to add in as I just read some of the above post that the TP diffrence from my canes and hajirods is very very small, the PP diffrence is medium. I think the canes have like 700 PP and the rods have like 1100 the canes run out 3x faster tho since I spam dps with them.

As for best Wand... atleat for the weapons so far GRM seems to be the best. PP diffrence from Yomehei is small/very small but TP diffrence is large. Then the PP regen is equal 7 per tick on GRM/Yomehei while its only 5 per tick on Tenora.

If crunch the numbers and did a total weapon efficantcy per PP calculation GRM would win. The extra TP easily outdoes the extra PP of the Yomehei since the extra damage per spell uventully adds up to being an extra spell all in itself, all while preserving a higher DPS.






<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ViciousXUSMC on 2006-11-28 21:38 ]</font>

[KirinDave]

On 2006-11-28 20:06, Remedy wrote:

On 2006-11-28 15:51, Ravennittes wrote:
Many forces would disagree with you. If you are to have a wand combo, have a handgun. Most of my friends carry extra wands, though I just carry 5 haji's and a Baybari...The forces that would disagree (e.g.: The ones that use wands) are the idiotic ones, then.

Protip: Slightly faster casts do NOT make up for over 500 lost PP



For once, I am in agreement with -Shimarisu-. Wands are not about longevity. They are for damage races. When I need to drop something fast, my TW Diga wand comes out. Examples include:

- Bosses. Dragon, Onma (once he falls) and the Moatoob version of Onma (I know he's ground, Diga still does the most damage). I can't possibly burn through 600PP in these fights. It's also about being able to dodge. Standing still to cast can put you in a lot of bad situations.
- Large targets. Go to the ruins, tell me that dropping those big guys fast isn't a good idea.
- Those obnoxious newmans in Temple, a beating stick is the best option to help kill the females (read: healers).

Do they run out of PP fast? Heck yes. That's the point! I'm sacrificing efficiency for damage and mobility. I use rods most of the time. I didn't sell or throw away my old ground C-ranks, they are spare weapons, so I have more PP than I know what to do with.

I've lately started using a Batnara as my primary resta/reverser during bosses. I've died because I saved someone else and got stuck in a bad place. I don't really want that to happen again.

Is it more expensive? Yes. Is it the bad idea you're making it out to be? Protip: no.*

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: KirinDave on 2006-11-28 21:31 ]</font>

[Remedy]

First off: Bows >>>>>>>>>>>> any variety of nuke for the newmans in Fanatics.

Beyond that, you are honestly trying to say that we're able to put out as much damage on bosses as Hunters can? Good hunters with properly aligned spears at the right element put us to freaking shame, Wand and Diga or not.

Besides. Once I get my Me/Quick, my rods will be faster than your wands. So loltherekthx. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[ViciousXUSMC]

tisk tisk remedy we arleady went over me/quick http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

the charge time will be similar to the wand with it but the animation time is still longer so it wont be quite the same, then when bigger spells come out (2 days I think) the wand would be ahead again.

I happened to have gotten last post on the previous page so nobody will read it http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_mad.gif but I also said bows are the best for the temple guys.

[Remedy]

Meh, I've done a decent amount of fiddling. Yes, it won't be that way forever, but for the time being it is.

And I have 99 posts per page, so lol @ pages

And yeah, I do like... 200-ish with my +5 Alteric and the earth arrows on my bow. Plus, the (very, VERY freaking rare) silence is nice. They fire a hell of a lot faster than any spell ever could.

[ViciousXUSMC]

I do 170ish with my +2 5* bow with ice arrows, it freezes on a decent basis but freeze is very short in this game.

[DMG]

Force using nothing but grinded up GRM and Tenora wands and ONE high PP rod purely for resta here.

By god wands are better, you should use them. Unless your connection is shitty and you can't switch fast.

My arsenal is set up like this.

Wand with element
Wand with element and resta.
Wand with element
Rod or wand with resta and reverser. I switch palette a lot so it varies.
Wand with element
Bow with blah blah element.

KEEPING DA WANDS WITH DA RESTA NEXT TO DA NUKING WANDS AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE FOR EASY SWITCH=WIN


Wands are so much better than rods, in my opinion.

Faster cast rate, ability to tag everything with a handgun, and able to close into mobs by stunning them with a handgun to cast a point blank Diga/Foie for accuracy.

Just quoted these as this is my exact setup/feelings on the subject. I'll probobly try out cards and keep a rod w/buffs aroud once they are released.

[VanHalen]

On 2006-11-28 19:22, Zeta wrote:
Scratch my previous statement.

I'll use whatever I choose (not CHOSE Lou, CHOOSE!). Twin Sabers and Swords FTW!

Spears can go crawl under a rock.



yeah SWORDS RULE especially the Tenora Works one its so sexy dont get me wrong i mean yohmei's and G.R.M.'s are too but not like tenora's *drools*

and all hunter weapons are great and so are machine guns too

[industrial]

This may not count but I do 190 with a +5 3* bow using the right opposing element as a lvl 37 cast, lvl 4 force. I don't even bother trying to nuke on my Focast. <_< I should try this with some nice 5* bows but im saving my pennies atm....

[ViciousXUSMC]

I dont know how you can use all Wands... While I am in the defense of wands the reason I only have 2 is because indeed I can use up both wands before I am done with block 1 in some games.

I definitly need the higher PP and slower casting of the rods to make it thru a full game.

with everything as it is +4 on everything too I am pretty much bone dry at the end of hard missions but never run out seems to be perfect every time. Maybe a few times I had to use my bow on the last group or two of mobs.

I also always have my 10 photon charges with me should the situation call for them (like when it was just me my Pm and another guy doing A rank Moatoob...)

[Gazette]

On 2006-11-28 20:06, Remedy wrote:

The forces that would disagree (e.g.: The ones that use wands) are the idiotic ones, then.

Protip: Slightly faster casts do NOT make up for over 500 lost PP



On 2006-11-28 21:45, Remedy wrote:
Beyond that, you are honestly trying to say that we're able to put out as much damage on bosses as Hunters can? Good hunters with properly aligned spears at the right element put us to freaking shame, Wand and Diga or not.

Besides. Once I get my Me/Quick, my rods will be faster than your wands. So loltherekthx. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif



I quit trying to persuade such an ignorant and incredibly stubborn person like you.
Even if we can't hit like a hunter, we should still try to max our output.

If you seriously cannot see that Wands outdamage Rods for the PP that they're given, then you have some real issues there.

I've explained, countless times.
A fully ground rod and wand, both 5-star,
(I only say 5 star because that is all that's released now on equal terms),

Have a TAP of 510(Rod) and 505(Wand).
If you seriously think that by gimping yourself with Me/Quick or even the strongest /Quick you accomplish Wand status, you're mistaken.

Me/Quick brings your rod's base TAP down to (480) at +10.
Meanwhile a Wand with Gi/Magic gets raised to (545)TAP.

No, you aren't casting faster than a Wand with Me/Quick, get it through your head, it amounts to a Wand cast speed.
But considering you're attacking with (480) rather than (545) at the same speed, guess what!? Big surprise, the Wand is going to outdamage you!

Rods aren't almighty so long as the Wand has PP.
When the PP runs out, sure the Rod can take over, until then don't tell me that you're going to outdamage a Wand user when you're on equal terms.

At this point though, I really could care less whether you believe me or not, either way you can take your 44% Gi-senba you so love and shove it where the sun don't shine.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gazette on 2006-11-28 22:25 ]</font>

[Aaomi]

I prefer dagger/gun and twin daggers on my hunter. Seems I can do more damage with my single dagger than any other weapon I have tried, even on a boss.

[Arieta]

This thread is great. I can't wait to see what else will be said by tomarrow. So many people foaming at the mouth http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[SpishackCola]

All I can ask is...why make this?

[ViciousXUSMC]

Rabies!!!

LoL I think its the frustration of the Fo community, we get so tired of reading the countless healing threads, and "job" threads that we turn on eachother http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Plus Fo is a very versitile class, since one person plays so diffrently than another each person is going to naturaly belive there way is the better, given that and add in human nature (the nature to argue) and you get what you see above.

I play hybrid :/ I have rods and wands and use whats best for whats going on. I also always crunch the numbers wich is how I arrived a GRM being the best wand for now.

later on all fo weps will be yomehei anyways.

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2006-11-28 21:45, Remedy wrote:
First off: Bows >>>>>>>>>>>> any variety of nuke for the newmans in Fanatics.


Hahahaha.

Have you levelled Foie and Diga, at all? Try soloing it and come back. My bows, with maxxed PAs, do 180 damage, yes. And they are faster, yes. And the newmen are tech resistant, indeed.

But a high level Foie or Diga will BURN or SILENCE them, putting paid to their resta spamming bullcrap.

And they'll burn or silence a lot more than the current level 10 bow PAs. I can't speak for after patch, but right now you are wrong.

[Arieta]

On 2006-11-28 23:03, SpishackCola wrote:
All I can ask is...why make this?



Because of all the fun replys like Shim's, she gets really worked up about this stuff and it's like watching a soap opera. It's great. Just get a drink or something and read the whole thing http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[Shadow_Wing]

Here's my take on Rangers:

Rifle > Dualies > Shotgun but that's only due to play style XD.

Anyways based purely on numbers Rifles will down right win in any situation if you wish to look at damage over time.

Below are my findings on damage using non-elemental bullets.

Weapon Delay 1x Dmg x2 x3 x4 dps dpm
Rifle 0.55 151 0 0 0 274 16473
Shotgun 1.25 83 0 249 332 199/266 11952/15936
Dual 0.77 97 194 0 0 252 15116

However one has to consider advantages and disadvantages of each weapon, for IMO each weapon has their own merit.


Rifles: Limited movement, however can deal the most damage over time and has SE that levels as bullet level increases.

Shotgun: Limited movement, relatively slow and all bullets have to hit to fully maximize, however has the highest burst damage, eventually higher damage over time on a single target.

Dual: Middle ranked weapon, doesn't beat any weapon in any category but has the best mobility out of all 3 weapons.

Next up is SEEA (Status Effect Effectiveness and Accuracy)

Effectiveness: Duration and/or Strength of SE
Accuracy: How often a SE will stick


Rifles:
Above average accuracy and excellent effectiveness. Within 3-5 shots will likely have the mob stuck with the preferred SE, not including bigger mobs of course.

Shotgun:
Single Target Excellent accuracy and average effectiveness. 1-2 shots will likely have the mob stuck with the preferred SE.
Many Targets Average accuracy and average effectiveness. 5-8 shots will likely have the mob stuck with the preferred SE.

Dual:
Excellent accuracy and average effectiveness. 1-3 shots will likely have the mob stuck with the preferred SE.

Overall Rifles sound awesome don't they XD. Take this info as is, numbers don't lie but also how one plays is something you can't ignore.

btw, opinion is not fact.

[ViciousXUSMC]

everything is fun to read after 10 shots of tequilla http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2006-11-28 23:37, Arieta wrote:

On 2006-11-28 23:03, SpishackCola wrote:
All I can ask is...why make this?



Because of all the fun replys like Shim's, she gets really worked up about this stuff and it's like watching a soap opera. It's great. Just get a drink or something and read the whole thing http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif



[15:59] <Arion> I love how people can't agree with me without throwing a backhanded compliment.
[15:59] <Arion> "
[15:59] <Arion> For once, I am in agreement with -Shimarisu-.
[15:59] <Arion> "
[16:02] <Arion> hahha the thread got turned into a trainwreck cause I said I preferred wands
[16:02] <Arion> turns out half the community agrees and the other half vehemently DISAGREES
[16:02] <Arion> And FOs are such emos

Yes I'm totally not playing with you in exactly the ways you think you're playing with me.

I am drinking crappy happoushu, AKA fake beer for cheap asses. You?

[ViciousXUSMC]

Kirin Lager Plz http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif

[-Shimarisu-]

DID YOU KNOW THAT IF YOU SWEAR ALL THE TIME, IT MEANS YOU ARE ANGRY? NOT ONLY THIS, BUT DEADLY SERIOUS?

IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE SAY, RAISED IN A WORKING CLASS NORTHERN ENGLISH TOWN, ON THE BORDER OF LIVERPOOL AT ALL.

OH FUCK I GAVE AWAY MY LESS THAN REFINED UPBRINGING.

I POSTED THIS IN CAPS TO COMPLETE THE IMAGE OF SHOUTING, AND ANGRY.

ANYWAY WANDS ARE BETTER THAN RODS.

[ViciousXUSMC]

OMG BUT MY ROD IS BIGGER THAN YOU WAND!
=====[)
==========[)
ITS OBVIOUS BIGGER IS BETTER
YES SIZE DOES MATTER http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

[Gazette]

I'm pro-skub.

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2006-11-29 00:11, ViciousXUSMC wrote:
OMG BUT MY ROD IS BIGGER THAN YOU WAND!
=====[)
==========[)
ITS OBVIOUS BIGGER IS BETTER
YES SIZE DOES MATTER http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif



I thought about this and actually, yes. It does LOOK better, if you can carry off a bigger rod.

And obviously that bigger rod can LAST longer, but if it lacks effectiveness, that ability to last is just going to tire out a lady.

[DrewSeleski]

On 2006-11-29 00:12, Gazette wrote:
I'm pro-skub.

one of the worse pbf's http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_frown.gif

[ViciousXUSMC]

http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif gotta get women that are in shape.

Let them do all the work, but thats a diffrent story....

I Pro-Wand and proud!

Ok so who is gonna make our offical tee-shirts for the two diffrent cabnets? we have the republicans and I mean the Wand's and the Rod's

[Remedy]

On 2006-11-28 23:04, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Have you levelled Foie and Diga, at all?*looks at Foie 18.73 and Diga 20.00*

Nope, not at all. You were saying?

[Alisha]

er against normal enemies shotguns smoke rifles. maybee early on they would stand a chance but once shotguns get to bullet lvl 11 and shoot 4 bullets its over. then at 21 when they shoot 5 bullets it's no contest. i think you would have to be doing single digit damage with a shotgun for a rifle to do more. i dont know how it is online but im pretty sure shotguns have more pp than any other gun either that or its a tie between rifles,bows,and shotguns.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Alisha on 2006-11-29 01:55 ]</font>

[Ether]

On 2006-11-29 01:54, Alisha wrote:
i dont know how it is online


Yeah

[Valius]

"Best" is a highly subjective term, differant people have differant preferances. I like using the sword even though it's slow as heck. Ideally the weapon shouldn't change what you can do, just how you do it.

Though I do applaud the OP for emphasizing that they were stating their opinion, too many people try to present personal belief as fact.

[ZiG]

Look.

Rods look stupid, and everyone carrying them look fucking dumb while running.
Wands > Rods.

[ViciousXUSMC]

I actually think rods are much more magician/wizard like than wands.

wands are for fairies http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_razz.gif

but I still like wands in game for there properties not there looks.

[HAYABUSA-FMW-]

On 2006-11-28 16:18, Parn wrote:
Regarding the daggers versus sabers, I'll take a dagger over it any day of the week. The photon art, especially the second half, is phenomenal and very easily controlled.


Alot of people might have missed this and only gotten their Hunter Spear-Saber spammage PA to lv 10+

OP, FenixStryk, I completely recommend getting your Dagger PA over 10 with your Hunter and check out the second portion of it, then make a comparison back to the Saber. Looks nice too.

The only draw is that its another PA that can be easily stopped when you get stunned by an attack during it, thus losing alot of the chances for hits to connect.

If this was posted in the guides section, a lot of this General forum nonsense would've been avoided too, with better-quicker feedback.

[Kaply]

A good portion of your post is off. Just to give an example, you know how everyone hates goshins? Well the reason is that no one understands the best weapons to use against them. They are enemies that can easily be flipped so, the best weapon to use against them? Twin sabers. After the first hit, all subsequent attacks flips the enemies. Thus if goshins are being flipped they won't go underground. Not going underground means a good pounding. There are other problems with your posts as well.

[HAYABUSA-FMW-]

On 2006-11-29 02:29, Kaply wrote:
There are other problems with your posts as well.


I'm under the impression he's allowing rebuttals and opinions in favor of or against his opinions as well.

Go ahead and say why you think its off and explain your playstyle/weaponry preferences.

[Ravennittes]

Every weapon has it's use as each person's fighting style is different.

[AlMcFly]

I didn't read any of this thread but I will just say:

Force - Rod/Bow
Hunter - Spear/Twin Sabers/Twin Daggers
Ranger - Rifle/Twin Handguns

[Kaloa]

On 2006-11-29 02:36, Ravennittes wrote:
Every weapon has it's use as each person's fighting style is different.


Thank you for saying that. I'm getting tried of all this wands are better than rods/rods are better than wands/etc. nonsense. Just because one person has found a way to be successful with a certain setup, doesn't mean it's the only one that works, and it doesn't mean that other people can't be just as good using different kinds of weapons and abilities.

[EnixBelmont]

Twin sabers are good, but not as good as spear or double dagger IMO. But thats just my opinion. I'd use them over a spear anyday if your going straight figunner. But I'm going Fortefighter almost entirely for S rank spears >_>

[Animosity]

i love the sword it does tons of damage as a lvl 29 beast hunter i hit 490 crit with my sword and it hits multiple enemys. it clears the room pretty damn fast and its great for boss fights.

[panzer_unit]

Ooh we get to say nasty stuff under the cover of it being an opinion! Count me in.

All the bitching about swords is lame. Start your swing while mobs are still wandering into range, not when they're standing on your toes. Hit twice and move before they're even close enough to start swinging. Repeat. It's easy - with a sword - to wade through a whole encounter without getting hit. Maybe it takes longer, but without a healbot babysitting you healing is limited (without going back to camp) and expensive (if you do) and taking damage is a good step towards actually getting killed and dropping your mission rank. Taking some extra time to kill monsters safely makes no difference to mission rank & rewards. So... what do all the "pro's" I was hanging with the other night do? It's only logical: they favor high-risk attacks like Twin Dagger for the awesome-looking DPS and spend half a goddamned hour looking for a force to join their team before leaving on an A-rank mission, or chicken out and do something far less rewarding.

I prefer single daggers for filling my rage guage... if mobs are bunched up well, the first PA deals 4 hits each and knocks them down so you don't take a counterattack. The second PA deals a ton of hits as well as sending the victim(s) rolling so you can jog over and take more free shots.

Personally I find shotguns stupidly easy to use. Against a crowd of monsters all my shots hit almost the time from safe ranges, and kick off a ton of burn statuses for a lot of free damage. In a team I can point-blank the hell out of a monster attacking my teammate and drop it in short order.

Mechguns are great. "Being owned by a mech" is pretty much its own level 3 SE... it flinches the hell out of monsters, basically cutting their speed in HALF while you're unloading on 'em. Not a big deal for the little things you take one-on-one (quickly dealing the Paralysis status and high damage rate vs their low DFP are compensatory advantages) but wow does it make life really easy for the guys doing primary damage on the thing by poking the shit out of it with range/positioning dependent melee attacks. Right now I'm carrying a Gatling+3, unskilled if it makes the difference between hitting consistently or not, for spamming on major creatures. Most rangers who see the effectiveness of me going with that in Moatoob missions are doing it themselves the next time I see them.

[Blu_Swade]

I don't like the narrow attack range of the spear, ever tried opening a box with one without using Dus Daggas? enemies are fine though, due to lock-on. also, I love the single dagger PA's, but Gravity Strike is so fun, I use one with me handgun and the other with me mechgun. ^_^'

[KirinDave]

On 2006-11-29 01:24, Remedy wrote:

On 2006-11-28 23:04, -Shimarisu- wrote:
Have you levelled Foie and Diga, at all?*looks at Foie 18.73 and Diga 20.00*

Nope, not at all. You were saying?



Uhh, so why don't you want to silence them again? It only takes 1-2 shots of Diga to get that across. It's especially important when you come across those extremely annoying all-healer groups. If you can't silence them, your only real choice is divide and conquer, and many pickup groups lack the coordination to do that.

To keep somewhat on topic, I really don't care what your palette is. I've made my decisions after a lot of experimentation and arrived at the same conclusions as other people playing Force (even people I don't really know or often agree with).

I did a little testing last night as I was putting some new wands through their paces. There was another force who actually cussed me out for using a wand instead of a Hajirod. So we both lined up on a tough enemy and spammed. I could get off 3 shots of diga to his two against heavy mobs. I did 30 less damage per hit (to be fair, his Hajirod was unground and my 4-star tenora wand has 4 grinds).

If that's not a brutal damage advanage, I don't know what is. Couple that with the increased mobility (and hence accuracy) of the wands when using unwieldily spells like Diga and you get a concrete tradeoff between power and stamina that can't be dismissed trivially.

[curlack45]

So you go buy all the fancy attack power and stuff?

i've completed ep 1 and thats it! i just like the spec's/ thec's and the pretty photon colours, and i was extreemly happy when i got a red sword http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[Reiichi]

Weapons are all situational. The sword is probably one of the most situational of all the weapons and therefore one of the least liked. The best way to look at weapons is to hear the good things people say about weapons. People who have good things to say about weapons use them. Those who don't care about weapons won't use them, and won't have any idea how to use them.

Slow, easily interruptable, I found the sword best used on large groups of small monsters. Similar to when you would use the twin daggers though, but with the increased range of tornado break to better ensure that you hit monsters further apart. The knockback from the sword PA isn't much, but it still is something. Also your character takes a step when you swing. Sometimes with a mob behind me I will walk + tornado break away from the monsters. It allows me to maintain distance while still hitting them as I am stepping away + minor tornado break knockback + good range.

The sword is not a good 1 v 1 weapon. Don't use it like that. Terribly inefficient.

Grouping 3+ monsters together is difficult. The medium size monsters like koldovas are difficult to twin dagger hit as they are larger and harder to group. They are also harder to double tag with a spear, or triple tag with a sword. I don't like using swords on koldovas, though tornado break can still easily land 3 hits on a mob. For that matter I don't like using spears on koldovas either.

Large monsters I prefer the spear to the sword. Simply faster at nailing the hit boxes.

-------------------

I love wands, but I have never used a rod. I carry 8 wands or so, and only use 3 rows of my palette. Attack wand, attack/resta wand, resta/reverser wand. I only use 3 rows for increased response times when swapping between wands. I could stagger them but then I'd lose track of my reverser wand. I do lots of palette swapping down hallways.

The offhand pistol is great. I can tag when needed. It also allows me to back up and deal damage.

Overall it's easier to aim since monsters move and the cast is faster. It the nuke causes monsters to flinch then you can cause them increased flinching with faster casts.

What it comes down to though, all your rod lovers better be fortechers.

[Stixx]

I would have to say that dagger is the most effective melee weapon for a few reasons. You have ALOT of freedom of movement while in the PA. Sometimes I find myself using the PA to dodge as much as I do to attack. For example, in the Moatoob canyon I can initiate my PA and tag a would-be firebreather Vanda with the kick from combo1 to knock him down, then turn back to whatever I was fighting for the rest of the combo.

Also, on larger enemies such as the desert crocodiles and the spikey guys in the canyon, I can hit the enemy up to 20 times in a single PA (combo 1 and 2). With my 18% ice dagger each hit of the PA does 250-270 damage (non-crit) to said crocodiles. Doing a little bit of basic math, if ever hit connects we're looking at about 5000 damage. As a bonus, if the last kick in combo2 connects, it'll put the croc on it's side for a few seconds. Mind you, a few of your hits will miss, but that's still a respectable amount of damage...

[Witchblade56]

I've got to agree with panzer on the mech guns. I would a pose a question to the people that have nay sayed mechgun calling it an utterly weak weapon... what level have u gotten it to? There was a comment made about Lv 1 SE ... ?_? I have level 20 frozen fury, level 10 plasma and level 10 burning and level 8 grav fury respectively. Level 20 frozen fury on a fire based mob does 43-46 a hit on a B rank non king mob. Albeit freeze status is shorter in duration in comparison to rifle and dual handgun, hand gun.

Panzer also stated something significant which applies to how an RA may play as far as in game style/mechanics. Causing the mob to flinch/stutter. This decreases the chances of your HU getting smacked the fuck up and getting dead before the FO can get in and resta him/her. It also can be used to control mobs that have aggrod your FO so they can get the hell away. -CROWD- control is how i use mechgun.

Consider Level 10 plasma fury in fanatics area. All those mobs running around need to be controlled. Plasma sticks [for a short time] shock status on the mobs for long enough that your teamates can get out of harms way.

Thats just the mech gun itself we havent factored in saber or dagger PAs. Run up on the mob that your HU is working on or thats beating on your FO knock the effing thing down and drill it a few so they can get around to hit it more or away from it.

Mechgun is purely meant for dmg control and crowd control imo. It caters to a specific playstyle that requires investment in properly level PAs. This talk of level one or even level 3 PAs is nonsense. Level your respective PAs to ten or higher before you comment. Understand the role that mechgun users play in parties and then comment. And lets be honest when i skill my PAs up on mobs i knock them the hell down and empty the clip into the mobs. I dont expect good result until my PA is at least 15 or above. Especially playing in rank B-A missions.

Strafing with mechguns to tag all the mobs in a respective area is also a good use.

For dmg i rely on my dual handguns/rifle for longer lasting SEs and great dmg contribution overall to the pt.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Witchblade56 on 2006-11-29 11:59 ]</font>

[Vhex]

This article is just a muddle of biased asumpions based on personal preference and really has no fact behind its criticisms.

First off, don't say Look at the numbers when you have no numbers presented.

Swords are amazing. They have great ATP, and can the widest range of targets of any weapon without using a PA. When you do use Tornado Break, you unleash massive numbers on a full 360 degree swoop has a much greater radius than the range of the dagger special. You also don't lose tons of HP if you aren't a complete idiot and position yourself correctly. Due to the large range of the sword, when using one I lose the least HP.

Twin Sabers not only dish out tons of damage, but they can flip almost anything, making them extremely helpful in taking down large enemies. And the PA doesn't knock them far away either like you said.

As per shotguns, I'm asuming you never got a shottie bullet to 20, if you did you'd know that they spread status effects very efficiently, and is the best weapon for soloing rangers.

t*slaps your wrist* Machine guns can cause status effects faster than handguns, and PP has plenty of time to charge when you use a saber and don't try to Rambo every enemy with them.

Canes are considerably faster than Rods, and gun support with cane allows forces to tag everything so they can focus on their targets.

When it comes down to it every single weapon type is balenced. You can't say one is better than the other.







<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Vhex on 2006-11-29 12:15 ]</font>

[Bleemo]

On 2006-11-29 12:05, Vhex wrote:
This article is just a muddle of biased asumpions based on personal preference.

First off, don't say Look at the numbers when you have no numbers presented.

Swords are amazing. They have great ATP, and can the widest range of targets of any weapon without using a PA. When you do use Tornado Break, you unleash massive numbers on a full 360 degree swoop has a much greater radius than the range of the dagger special. You also don't lose tons of HP if you aren't a complete idiot and position yourself correctly. Due to the large range of the sword, when using one I lose the least HP.

Twin Sabers not only dish out tons of damage, but they can flip almost anything, making them extremely helpful in taking down large enemies. And the PA doesn't knock them far away either like you said.

As per shotguns, I'm asuming you never got a shottie bullet to 20, if you did you'd know that they spread status effects very efficiently, and is the best weapon for soloing rangers.

t*slaps your wrist* Machine guns can cause status effects faster than handguns, and PP has plenty of time to charge when you use a saber and don't try to Rambo every enemy with them.

Canes are considerably faster than Rods, and gun support with cane allows forces to tag everything so they can focus on their targets.

When it comes down to it every single weapon type is balenced. You can't say one is better than the other.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid your analysis on weapons are a tad off as well.

Swords suck. It isn't a perceptional or opinionated matter, they just suck compared to everything else. In order to deal halfway decent damage with a sword, you have to have a well grinded Tenora 5-6* sword. The use of sword, no matter what way you try to play, you're going to get beat to hell and back if you actually want to contribute damage to the group. Sword is just too slow and clunky for you to be able to deal high amounts of DPS and survive at the same time.

The only thing sword has going for it is the ability to swing at anything around you between combo hits. The main drawback to swords, especially for males, is the opening swing. It's so slow, anything infront of you has time to hit you--hell, even step in and hit you.

And please, don't get me started on Tornado Break. The opening hit on Tornado Break is just as slow as the combo's opening hit, making you lose an annoying amount of PP(Especially if you use Tenora swords.) if you evade. The damage on Tornado Break sucks compared to Renkai Buyou-zan--pick some decent Twin Daggers up, level it, and check for yourself. Oh, and when you talk about damage, large numbers mean jack when your DPS sucks.


Every single weapon is not balanced. It's impossible to "balance" every weapon. There will always be a weapon type that will rule over another, however due to ranks and photon arts, certain weapons will be preferred weapons for certain classes.

Though, I will applaud ST for doing a great job at designing their weapon system.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bleemo on 2006-11-29 12:44 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

On 2006-11-29 12:35, Bleemo wrote:
The main drawback to swords, especially for males, is the opening swing. It's so slow, anything infront of you has time to hit you--hell, even step in and hit you.


You would have a clue if you had listened when the grown-ups were talking. Thanks for coming out though.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2006-11-29 12:50 ]</font>

[PureEntropy]

On 2006-11-29 12:35, Bleemo wrote:

Every single weapon is not balanced. It's impossible to "balance" every weapon. There will always be a weapon type that will rule over another, however due to ranks and photon arts, certain weapons will be preferred weapons for certain classes.

Though, I will applaud ST for doing a great job at designing their weapon system.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bleemo on 2006-11-29 12:44 ]</font>


Is it possible that the sword was meant to be used in conjunction with a Ranger? So that a Ranger freezes a bunch of enemies, and the hunter then swings the sword hitting all the enemies w/o fear of reprisal?

I don't play a hunter, but this sort of collaboration might make the weapon more viable.

[Bleemo]

On 2006-11-29 12:49, panzer_unit wrote:
You would have a clue if you had actually read the thread. Thanks for coming out though.

You speak nonsense child.

Don't post if you're going to act ignorant.

[Witchblade56]

Dunno about this great sword debate tbh. People say that you get hit and that it has poor DPS . . . . ?_? I dont get hit all that much on my hunter; though i mostly use it to aoe tag mobs then switch to saber/dagger combos to work specific mobs. I have used it exclusively during some exp grinds to great affect. Then again Tornado Break is 20 and my great swords all have appropriate elemental attributes when fighting the coressponding mobs... >_> 200+ dmg on three mobs for aoe isnt half bad imo. It does lack knockback but it -IS- ready to hit 21 when the PA cap is lifted ^_^

[panzer_unit]

On 2006-11-29 12:50, PureEntropy wrote:

Is it possible that the sword was meant to be used in conjunction with a Ranger? So that a Ranger freezes a bunch of enemies, and the hunter then swings the sword hitting all the enemies w/o fear of reprisal?



The point of swords is safely tackling hordes of melee enemies. Get a feel for the speed and then swing early enough that you're hitting incoming monsters at the edge of your reach. Compared to twin daggers its a tradeoff between damage rate and safety. Like I said earlier, time is free and healing without a force is expensive... learning how to use a sword makes sense for times when you don't have a team covering your ass. (and even if you do, no sense hurting their DPS just to boost your own)



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2006-11-29 13:36 ]</font>

[Bleemo]

On 2006-11-29 13:34, panzer_unit wrote:
The point of swords is safely tackling hordes of melee enemies. Get a feel for the speed and then swing early enough that you're hitting incoming monsters at the edge of your reach. Compared to twin daggers its a tradeoff between damage rate and safety. Like I said earlier, time is free and healing without a force is expensive... learning how to use a sword makes sense for times when you don't have a team covering your ass. (and even if you do, no sense hurting their DPS just to boost your own)
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2006-11-29 13:36 ]</font>

Timing a sword and getting to any "safety" positions takes too long, it defeats the purpose of even using a sword for damage.

I'm not sure how much you've experienced so far, but Rank A mobs move too quickly to time much of anything without getting hit. No, it's not a skill issue, it's not a timing issue, it's the weapon's issue. You can't tell me when a full pack of Navals are on you that sword is a safer weapon to use. It truly shows it's uselessness when soloing. The whole attacking the mob with the tip of your weapon thing? Well, spear does it MUCH better. Not only does Dus Daggas do more damage, but it's also a lot faster, and spears have a larger PP count.

Hell, even twin daggers are safer with the right timing. The twin dagger PA hits three times per hit on a max of two mobs--that's three stuns per swing so long as they hit. The twin dagger PA executes a lot quicker and recovers a lot quicker. So long as the last attack connected, you can run out of attack range. The recovery time on the sword is pathetic. Once used, you're prone to getting a face beating even after stunning them with your last hit. God forbid even missing once with the sword.

[etlitch]

Currently leveling bullet PAs on my main, only used handgun, twin handgun and mechgun sofar and there's something important: The ranger causing monsters to flinch thing is pretty much bullshit once you move on to anything other than C grade missions.

The monsters only do a quick "I'm hit" animation once you shoot them, it won't cancell their attack or movement unless they "evade" it and do their blocking animation. Most monster that cancells their attack just to do the evade animation will directly resume attacking and redo their attack once the evade animation finishes, sometimes making things worse.

Don't really like swords either, both attack and PA launches too slowly + very low ATA compared to other weapons. Attacking from longest reach won't cut it vs most monster on missions harder than C. The PA can only hit a max of 3 enemies.

Plasma bullets is almost useless on GoF runs. Because:
1. Useless on NPC Forces
2. Robots takes only 50% damage from ranged weapons
3. It makes the blue robots spam even more fireballs
4. It makes the brown robots spam more of their AoE dmg skill that does low damage but has larger area and is harder to avoid. At least it's pretty easy for anyone semi-decent to avoid it's other 2 melee attacks (shock and lunge)

Wands are higher DPS than rods due to faster cast animation. Most of your TP as a force comes from your base stats, not your weapon. PP recharge speed in wands are same as Rods, only difference would be that you can store more money in form of PP in your Rod, plus more TECH which requires less micro. (and same type tech dmg bonus which is'nt possible yet on USPSU due to the fact that there's only 2 TECHs of each element)

As for sabers VS daggers (1handed both), I keep 1 yohmei saber just for the first part of it's PA: 1 combo-end hit + 1 flipping hit. Which means that enemies (even the B+ grade ones) always will do a real "flinch" once they get hit by the first strike, then the second one flipping them. Just great for getting out of mobs/whatever. The normal attack from the saber is also very usefull, due to decent single target damage + accuracy + high agility. Single dagger PA beats saber hands down for damage though.

Shots are crappy unless you have a decoy so you can shoot things from behind to bypass it's EVP. Dmg dealt is never constant, you can't stand from a distance and just spam it and effiency of shots goes down much faster compared to rifle as the DFP of enemies increases.

[FenixStryk]

Too many people defending the sword and shotgun. Let me tell you somethin' about both of them.

With a Sword, you either actually get decent DPS but take a lot of damage or take your time playing it safe and make any decent damage you could've put out something to completely forget about. Neither is efficient. It's not about damage per hit. If it was, swords would win hands down. It's about damage per second, and sadly, swords are the worst at it. Not only does it attack like a sloth, it puts you in the perfect place for a real pounding.

The shotgun pretty much has the same problem. Let me use the other guy's analogy where 5x100 is better than 300. That's by damage per shot. You never took into account that:
A) That 300 damage rifle will fire twice before the shotgun fires again, and
B) During the shotgun's reload state, you're stuck in a horrible animation, not to mention
C) The likelyhood of properly aligning all 5 bullets is almost zero.

So, either
1) you go point blank to hit all 5 and stand there for a good pounding there after, or
2) keep your distance, miss at least 1 out of 5 shots, and still do less DPS.

There's just nothing going for either weapon.

[Genobee]

The sword sucks unless your using it against a group of monsters and even then it's pieace of crap, it's just too slow and you will get knocked on your ass before you can realy do any thing, my favorite is Pistol and Saber combo or daggers,

[Randomness]

On 2006-11-29 15:43, FenixStryk wrote:
Too many people defending the sword and shotgun. Let me tell you somethin' about both of them.

With a Sword, you either actually get decent DPS but take a lot of damage or take your time playing it safe and make any decent damage you could've put out something to completely forget about. Neither is efficient. It's not about damage per hit. If it was, swords would win hands down. It's about damage per second, and sadly, swords are the worst at it. Not only does it attack like a sloth, it puts you in the perfect place for a real pounding.

The shotgun pretty much has the same problem. Let me use the other guy's analogy where 5x100 is better than 300. That's by damage per shot. You never took into account that:
A) That 300 damage rifle will fire twice before the shotgun fires again, and
B) During the shotgun's reload state, you're stuck in a horrible animation, not to mention
C) The likelyhood of properly aligning all 5 bullets is almost zero.

So, either
1) you go point blank to hit all 5 and stand there for a good pounding there after, or
2) keep your distance, miss at least 1 out of 5 shots, and still do less DPS.

There's just nothing going for either weapon.



5 bullets at point blank, level 2 SE, means a very good probability of landing the SE. And, fired from behind, I can get out of the way before the enemy turns around. Also, the 4 bullets aren't hard to align, you just move forward and backwards to control the spread, if the enemies spread out too much, you STOP USING THE SHOTGUN.

For every bad situation for a weapon, another weapon fills the hole. So really its more your overall gear than any particular weapon that matters. And shotguns can get WAY more than 4 hits at level 11.

[Shadow_Wing]

GoF runs = ICE dam it, freezing things there is so ez, and earth on the forces, but at least have level 11 earth if you ever want to silence them >>.

I don't know why people think shock SE there is great... I don't feel like being a foie punching bag -_-;

Swords are rather useless, I'd agree, due to the fact that the mobs are faster in higher ranked missions. PA and normal atk just doesn't swing fast enough to maximize a sword in higher ranked missions. Maybe when the next PA comes out for big swords, we'll see more use for it but for now even in A rank GL trying to hit more than 2 mobs in your swing radius after the 1st aggro.

Btw, a Ranger can't always set up mobs in a way to maximize Sword damage.

[nefarious]

A veteran's

OPINION

on: The Best Weapons (for each base class)


Opinions are like assholes.

Everyone has them and no one thinks thiers stinks.




The OP stated early on (In the topic! Try reading it sometime) that these were all opinions.

When someone gives you the pretext that something is an opinion...

Here is what they are saying;

I'm about to be opinionated and probably offend you. But please keep in mind this is my O P I N I O N and I'm not claiming to know everything or be 100% right, anything I say that implies "I'm right" Or "This is fact" is simply meant to be strong wording to get my point across. So deal with it.



And for the record...

Player Skill > Gear

Since some of you have never played anything remotely resembling an MMO, I had to point that out.

Different skills/style will also make certain weapons/tactics better for you.


I love how when most people disagree with something clearly stated as an opinion, it stops being an opinion and becomes a declairation of war, clearly.


Stick out of ass(es) boys and girls. It's just an opinion.

[Carbinne]

I did take some of those factors into account, but I decided not to go over them. So I'll do that now. I acknowledge that the 300 damage rifle will probably fire twice before the shotgun fires again. And yeah, the lag time sucks. And the likelihood of properly aligning every bullet is not high.

But there are circumstances where you can nail two enemies with one bullet, with a whole bunch of em in a line, and still connect with at least 3 bullets. And as far as I'm concerned, if you're heading up point blank right in front of an enemy where you might as well be screaming "HEY DUDE HIT ME" while you fire, you're either being lazy, extremely confident, or idiotic. Is it risky? Sure. Do you do less DPS (omg wtf)? Probably, yeah. Is it a lot more exciting than sitting in one spot and hitting down, down, down, down all fight? I think so. Rifle bullets also happen to level slower than shotgun bullets so that's another count against rifles.

In the meantime, the rifle user can just sit there in first person mode, firing away in first person mode, changing targets and leaving to dodge attacks or to increase the distance between them. Nothing wrong with that; this is a perfectly legitimate tactic and there are plenty of cases where rifles are the most appropriate weapon to use. So many that the shotgun might seem pointless. But I didn't sign up for PSU just to listen to people grumble about weapons, or to go on tirades about weapons myself (though what am I doing right now?).

And swords have their place too! There are places where swords will crush the brains out of little mob swarms. Doesn't happen all the time, and the sword is also not the most efficient weapon to be using in every encounter. So if you only like carrying the two or three most versatile types of weapons around, go ahead and chuck your sword or your shotgun if you want to. Just don't go bitching about how everyone else in the world should do so too, because that just makes you sound like a bigot.

I don't carry or use mechguns because fun as it is to spray stuff, I already have enough bullet arts to level up as it is, and I just don't really care for the way mechs feel. I might regret this decision later, but hey, Later we'll have even MORE weapons and Arts to choose from. So I'll pass on mechs and maybe see how the 'nade launcher and the laser cannon plays out.

I'm not trying to convince the rest of the PSU playing world that mechguns or swords or rifles are awful and that nobody should use them. People need to try one out and form their own opinions of the weapons.

[Bleemo]

On 2006-11-29 16:41, nefarious wrote:
Player Skill > Gear

You know... this may be offtopic, but...


I'm really tired of hearing this bullshit.

You can take your assumed player skill and shove it up your ass until you shit out of your eyes.

People who say shit like this REALLY get under my skin, because it's cow mess. Factoring player skill into any MMORPG is nothing but an elitist, player superiority analysis.

[Carbinne]

On 2006-11-29 16:47, Bleemo wrote:

On 2006-11-29 16:41, nefarious wrote:
Player Skill > Gear

You know... this may be offtopic, but...


I'm really tired of hearing this bullshit.

You can take your assumed player skill and shove it up your ass until you shit out of your eyes.

People who say shit like this REALLY get under my skin, because it's cow mess. Factoring player skill into any MMORPG is nothing but an elitist, player superiority analysis.



That doesn't mean that player skill has absolutely no bearing on the way things work. Who would get picked first and last during PE class in intermediate school? Probably one of the athletic dudes first; me, the skinny computer nerd last. It's not something that you can really quantize and put into concrete numbers and percentages, but the bias is there. Compare the actions of someone who's fully alert versus someone who is falling asleep at the keyboard. Or even someone who already has fallen asleep at the keyboard. There's a big difference.

[Bleemo]

On 2006-11-29 16:54, Carbinne wrote:
That doesn't mean that player skill has absolutely no bearing on the way things work. Who would get picked first and last during PE class in intermediate school? Probably one of the athletic dudes first; me, the skinny computer nerd last. It's not something that you can really quantize and put into concrete numbers and percentages, but the bias is there. Compare the actions of someone who's fully alert versus someone who is falling asleep at the keyboard. Or even someone who already has fallen asleep at the keyboard. There's a big difference.

We're not talking about about real life, we're talking about an MMORPG. There is a huge difference between the two.

Also, a person who is tired and a person who is "skillful" are totally different matters. RPG's have always been about gear, luck, and character strength. MMORPG's will never have such complicated gameplay that would ever be worthy of factoring in player skill. Average player skill is enough to play the game to it's fullest.

Saying player skill matters more than any of the other game's built in variables is complete, utter bullshit.

[Kaply]

The game doesn't have one type of mob. Sword weapon is good in a few situations.

1a. The enemy AI likes to bunch them up.
1b. The enemy has an easily avoided attack.
2. The enemy has multiple target points that are spread out.

Enemies that fall into this category on the first two missions of Parum. Polty, Badira, Vahra, Svaltus.

[Tarathiel]

double sabers are teh roxxors i love em

[Carbinne]

That's true. But on the other hand, saying that player skill has no effect at all upon gameplay is also something that can be argued as being complete and utter bullshit. This is just something that I want to make sure is clear.

[Bleemo]

On 2006-11-29 17:06, Carbinne wrote:
That's true. But on the other hand, saying that player skill has no effect at all upon gameplay is also something that can be argued as being complete and utter bullshit. This is just something that I want to make sure is clear.


Never said it didn't.

"Skill" will always be a factor in any game, but in MMORPG's should never be factored ABOVE everything else--this is what bothers me when people do this. Which is where my argument oriented.

[Tarathiel]

im the kid who is athletic and plays videogames like all day but doesnt tell anyone about it >.>

[Genobee]

On 2006-11-29 17:04, Kaply wrote:
The game doesn't have one type of mob. Sword weapon is good in a few situations.

1a. The enemy AI likes to bunch them up.
1b. The enemy has an easily avoided attack.
2. The enemy has multiple target points that are spread out.

Enemies that fall into this category on the first two missions of Parum. Polty, Badira, Vahra, Svaltus.



all of which the pike can kill 100000000 times easyier.

Multi hit, and faster attacka nd a non shitty PA

[FenixStryk]

On 2006-11-29 16:47, Bleemo wrote:

On 2006-11-29 16:41, nefarious wrote:
Player Skill > Gear

You know... this may be offtopic, but... I'm really tired of hearing this bullshit. You can take your assumed player skill and shove it up your ass until you shit out of your eyes.

People who say shit like this REALLY get under my skin, because it's cow mess. Factoring player skill into any MMORPG is nothing but an elitist, player superiority analysis.I have to agree with BLEEEMOH!!!... on this. (really good name to yell out, man =)

This isn't PvP, guys. Skill doesn't matter, since your skill is always equal to, you guessed it, YOUR SKILL. Saying you have the skills to make a sword work is meaningless, since that means you also have the skill to make everything else that's BETTER than a sword work too.

C'MON. ¬_¬

[Witchblade56]

Eh Plasma fury procs quite oft for me; crowd control with that then switch to dual gun or rifle to lay down dmg and ice the enemies down.

I dont disagree that freezing them is very easy in GoF. I disagreed with people thinking mechguns are completely useless.

[Kent]

On 2006-11-29 16:58, Bleemo wrote:

On 2006-11-29 16:54, Carbinne wrote:
That doesn't mean that player skill has absolutely no bearing on the way things work. Who would get picked first and last during PE class in intermediate school? Probably one of the athletic dudes first; me, the skinny computer nerd last. It's not something that you can really quantize and put into concrete numbers and percentages, but the bias is there. Compare the actions of someone who's fully alert versus someone who is falling asleep at the keyboard. Or even someone who already has fallen asleep at the keyboard. There's a big difference.

We're not talking about about real life, we're talking about an MMORPG. There is a huge difference between the two.

Also, a person who is tired and a person who is "skillful" are totally different matters. RPG's have always been about gear, luck, and character strength. MMORPG's will never have such complicated gameplay that would ever be worthy of factoring in player skill. Average player skill is enough to play the game to it's fullest.

Saying player skill matters more than any of the other game's built in variables is complete, utter bullshit.



...Except that PSU is not an MMORPG. Six players in a game together, is hardly a massively-multiplayer experience. It's really as much of an MMORPG as Diablo II or Guild Wars was... (i.e. not)

What we're dealing with here, is an online action/RPG. Meaning, it's more emphatic on player input and reaction time... Meaning if a person is genuinely good at playing ("skillfull"), then they will perform better than someone using the same character, that isn't as skilled at playing.

For example... You have a Hunter that, unvaryingly, charged blindly into enemy groups, head-on, with a Sword, and doesn't try to dodge attacks at all. Then, you have a Hunter which switches between various weapons depending on the situation, tries to avoid head-on attacks for the most part, and takes advantage of being able to attack enemies from behind with perfect accuracy, as well as works well with his teammates. The skill level of these two players, is obviously different.

Just a side note: Playing an MMORPG (a game that actually is one, that is - such as EverQuest, WoW, FFXI, etc.) does require an amount of actual player skill; management, picking correct targets, teamwork, etc. are all skills that people use to varying degrees. The depth of gameplay varies, but to say there is no skill involved in any MMORPG, is just monsterously ignorant and blindly-stated.

However, on the other side of things, skill tends to not mean a whole lot in some games, unless you have proper equipment. You could be the best player in the world, but you couldn't expect to do much on A-rank Moatoob missions with your newbie equipment... Just like you could have all of the best possible, currently-usable weapons and armor available, but if you don't know how to use them well, then you'll just get mobbed and slaughtered.

Regardless of what you may believe, skill is a factor in basically any type of game, save for those based purely on the luck of the draw.

[DonRoyale]

On 2006-11-28 15:39, FenixStryk wrote:
Machineguns suck. They do not meet even the lowest of requirements, and should be evaded like the PLAGUE. DON'T DO IT!

*smacks Beast Figunner's hand* I SAID NO!


Hey Jay, I lol'ed (Not that you'll be using mechs anyways)

[Randomness]

Person 1:I think A! Therfore B is wrong!
Person 2:No! A is wrong, because I think B is right!
etc.

This is degenerating... badly.

As far as skill goes, its a logarithmic curve, when you have little skill, every bit is a nice big jump, but after a certain point, you can't really get any better, and improvement only slows down over time/skill level.

[KirinDave]

Kent's post rings of truth. PSU has a lot more "skill" derived from player input than most games in its genre or similar genre. You can actually dodge in PSU! Your movement, positioning, and reaction time do matter. Your options in terms of weapons and configuration also are very flexible, your ability to select appropriate weapons and use them correctly really matters.

Which is not to say we should get all "L2P" on people, but it is interesting to note that there can be a very big performance difference between equivalently geared and leveled players.

[Bleemo]

On 2006-11-30 13:51, Kent wrote:
...Except that PSU is not an MMORPG. Six players in a game together, is hardly a massively-multiplayer experience. It's really as much of an MMORPG as Diablo II or Guild Wars was... (i.e. not)

What we're dealing with here, is an online action/RPG. Meaning, it's more emphatic on player input and reaction time... Meaning if a person is genuinely good at playing ("skillfull"), then they will perform better than someone using the same character, that isn't as skilled at playing.

For example... You have a Hunter that, unvaryingly, charged blindly into enemy groups, head-on, with a Sword, and doesn't try to dodge attacks at all. Then, you have a Hunter which switches between various weapons depending on the situation, tries to avoid head-on attacks for the most part, and takes advantage of being able to attack enemies from behind with perfect accuracy, as well as works well with his teammates. The skill level of these two players, is obviously different.

Just a side note: Playing an MMORPG (a game that actually is one, that is - such as EverQuest, WoW, FFXI, etc.) does require an amount of actual player skill; management, picking correct targets, teamwork, etc. are all skills that people use to varying degrees. The depth of gameplay varies, but to say there is no skill involved in any MMORPG, is just monsterously ignorant and blindly-stated.

However, on the other side of things, skill tends to not mean a whole lot in some games, unless you have proper equipment. You could be the best player in the world, but you couldn't expect to do much on A-rank Moatoob missions with your newbie equipment... Just like you could have all of the best possible, currently-usable weapons and armor available, but if you don't know how to use them well, then you'll just get mobbed and slaughtered.

Regardless of what you may believe, skill is a factor in basically any type of game, save for those based purely on the luck of the draw.
Regardless of what you may believe, you have reading comprehensions. I never said it wasn't a factor, but to factor it above other of the MMORPG's variables is stupid.

PSU is an online RPG, duh. Thank you for pointing out the obvious. Look at the differences between the two when you refer to gameplay though, not setting. There is little to none when you look at general concept. PSU is an action based RPG, but still suffices to the limitations of an RPG. Skill is learned by simply playing the game, and that skill is enough to play the game to it's fullest. "Player skill", especially in PSU, has no grounds over character stats, weapons, armor, and luck--all of those are more important than high player skill. If I had mad outrageous skill in PSU, I would be doing no better at the game than I am now.

RPG's are not skill based. They are not meant to be. You learn the required and sufficient amount of skill by simply playing the game, and after reaching that skill level, it becomes irrelevant to get much better simply because gear, stats, luck, and other important variables impact your gameplay more. I can go on all day about "player skill" being the dominate factor in WoW, if anyone would like to argue about it.

The fact is: player skill we would call "average" is basically the cap in RPG gameplay--because no matter how good you become past that, other variables will still dominate over player skill. I don't care how good you are; if you decide you want to use a 1* weapon in PSU, you're not going to be doing better than the newbie whose wrecking things with a 6* weapon and taking less damage than you.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bleemo on 2006-11-30 14:16 ]</font>

[KirinDave]

On 2006-11-30 14:08, Bleemo wrote:

I can go on all day about "player skill" being the dominate factor in WoW, if anyone would like to argue about it.



It is unless you play a warlock. ZING! http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[physic]

this is a good thread i think, it allows people to express thier opinions based on thier play, however i think you have to consider that in this game when you adopt a play style you then become further on that path. if you used dual daggers all your life you know how spam PAs but honestly PA spam is not the wave of the future, all PAs have less accuracy, and the issue of pp cost comes up. carry 90 weapons, yeah you can do that but even still only a few of your dual daggers will have the leet hax dmg you need. getting your 40% +8 level A rank dagger is not a feat you will be able to do infinitely.

Fact is on S rank, you may be looking at the ACC of your PAs as much as the dmg, especially if your a beast, also how useful is the regular attack of your weapon, how open does it leave you. spear invariably pulls you in toward your enemies, its linear this is useful, but means you have to position yourself well to have an attack that doesnt harm you, sword allows you great freedom of movement between attacks, if you let go the lock button you see you can hit enemies while retreating, or use you PAs, simply by running past the mobs. also concerning thier spread of mobs. another factor is the second pa of sword has a huge % boost to dmg, couple that with the huge base atp, weapon atp, then the %bonus on your weapon, i seen a level 40 dude doing 600s with a 50% weapon. If you learn how to deal dmg with swords it offers you a lot of freedom, also the stutter on swords is pretty efficient, i can run into certain death use the pa for one hit and move again because the stutter effect is bigger than daggers.
dagger is also the get you killed weapon, yeah it deals dmg but the stutter is really small, and for most dmg necitates you jumping right in the middle of the mob and taking beating. Also seems higher you go, the less leet the dmg seems, and none of its pa attacks have no use in crowd controlling, And its regular attack is bad for multiple mobs, You ll also find with spear regular attack its pretty unlikely youll hit more than 2 mobs, and really unlikely you will do it for more than 2 hits of teh 3 hit. Spear is really best on single mobs, and maybe mobs that have two targets and are slow, basically the big mobs.

about the whole mechgun and handgun, they are offhand weapons, you cant consider them without considering your ability to use the dagger or sword as well, and the fact that you can use those weapons without incurring pp. people who think ra melee is useless, i can only say maybe thats why people think ra suck, some mobs take half gun dmg, and other times your spear may be best, or your dagger, as to only having C rank, a well grinded C is alot easier to grind than a B and a level 5 will compete with a b rank level 10 even more so, whilst your ata will make up for the loss in accuracy. only having 1 pa sucks, but there is only 2 for dagger and sword anyway. and long term, you will have access to the same A rank weaps than hunters use. if you gonna use your peashooter on a mob that takes half dmg from ranged, when you could step up and give him 4 hits on a dagger or pull out that PA your missing the point , and if you do that you still go the mechgun to unload on the other mobs.

skill and playerstyle decide a lot in this game, if you dont know how to use a weapon, it will suck. chances are if you liked a certain style and stuck with it for 10 levels, your gonna suck at using something very different in playstyle.

Personally my most hated weap is probably the twin sabers, too slow for my taste, excellent in crowd control, and good dmg, but burns tp like a madman. and reg attack is like please hit me. But mostly i prolly just dont like em that much, or id find ways, and develop a fighting style that makes em more useful



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: physic on 2006-11-30 14:24 ]</font>

[Vhex]

Man... Stop hatin' swords kids. They aren't that bad, you are just most likely accustomed to the speed of other weapons. Swords hit the most targets. Thats their specialty Same with shotguns. You can't compare them. They lack the power of spears(Rifles) and the speed of twin daggers(Twin Handguns), but they have more targets they can hit. Swords/ Shotguns are best for mobs, and its all about the positioning! You have to know where to put yourself when weilding the weapons, you can't attack like you would with others... and if the enemies disperse, you switch weapons. It's that simple. The weapons ARE balenced, they just have their different uses and strengths. They would not charge you the same price for weapons if they were not equally strong.

[physic]

wellll cool with me, the more anti sword peops, teh cheaper i can get em

[Vhex]

Yeah, I guess... good post by the way.