Almost there....

[Akaimizu]

More fun times, last night. I think I got to work with most of the people, on my Card list, that showed up. Looks like the luck train is finally becoming more regular for me. Still, the one downer was that I lost my best twin guns to the Grinding Station even with the boosts. But, on the other hand, the income was nice (Forces seem to have it easy in the money department) and it was almost like I never lost them. Thank Sega for the player store. Got some replacements and grinded them better than my last ones.

Tynselle is getting quite close to finishing the requirements for GunTecher. Only but a few or so good missions before she's a Level 3 Force. Sadly, I'll only have Thursday, this week, to really play until Saturday. I should have no problem, making it, by then.

Still, during the time I was partied up with Ronzeru, I had to laugh when one other person said, "Yay! Force!!" after I healed him. I guess, after the update, Tynselle will still be able to do that kind of stuff, but with the guns ready to go back into her hands. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2006-12-06 06:54 ]</font>

[Sychosis]

On 2006-12-06 06:53, Akaimizu wrote:
(Forces seem to have it easy in the money department)


...

You're joking right?

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2006-12-06 06:57, Sychosis wrote:

On 2006-12-06 06:53, Akaimizu wrote:
(Forces seem to have it easy in the money department)


...

You're joking right?



Bahahah really, forces have it super easy.

[Akaimizu]

One would think. But perhaps that's because of the level of Force. However, my ability to maintain the moolah seemed easier than when I was Ranger. Always having to cough out a percentage just to refill the PP of my guns. As a Force, it was like my PP never seems to run out, and I tend to end a mission with my wands (and supporting hand guns) almost full, if not full. I still tended to collect a similar amount of meseta.

The handguns do tag, but they have an even better purpose for me. As an aiming tool. Not because I needed the accurracy, but it does tend to often halt the monster more so they don't move out of the way of a technique, so much.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2006-12-06 07:04 ]</font>

[-Shimarisu-]

They really have it easier.

Total of Force levels I have (all chars):

25.

Total of hunter levels I have:

43

Total of ranger levels I have:

16.

Forces saved me the most money, so much so I've started every new char since my first two as force.

Forces who whine about money make me LOL.

HUNTERS cost the most by far. They spend the most on curatives with no force around. They lose the most to shit %s in weapons - Forces and rangers don't lose ANYTHING, every successful synth makes a useful item. My hunters cost me a bloody FORTUNE, I back them up with my force characters.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2006-12-06 07:07 ]</font>

[albel399]

im a hunter and even ill say forces have it harder. I have never spent money on mates because they are so damn easy to find.

[-Shimarisu-]

Why on EARTH would you think forces have it harder? Are they spending all their money on makeup for their big girly faces or what?

Seriously, what do you think their money goes on? Don't say PP recharges because that is just LOL.

YOu get in the big league of money earned and weapons acquired and you'll see FORCES HAVE IT FAR CHEAPER. Just the whole "every successful synth makes a good weapon" deal there makes them cheaper. And early on, if you don't have a good healer, and most people DO NOT, you'll spend a LOT on curatives.

Tell me, what's this imaginary thing forces spend all their money on again? I have one level 10 force, plus wartecher on JP. I'd really LOVE to know.

About the only big expenditure of force is if you make a pure tech PM. And it's still going to yield more cash than my pure striking on does. Over 3/4s of weapons I successfully synth have SHIT %s. I have to sell them at loss. Whereas forces get far more out of grinding to a relatively safe +4 and selling at profit.

And I'm not even complaining, I have force and hunter characters and I love them all, but this fallacy re cost of job class really needs to be shot down.

It'S MUCH easier to grind a wand high and get a GOOD wand than to produce a GOOD % hunter weapon. Sure, if you want crappy weaopns in either class you have less money worries, but yuo still have that whole HEAL FOR FREE shit going on with a force.

PP recharges are piddly scraps of short change, before you argue that. You know when it says "Do you want to recharge all your weapons? It will cost" blah blah? Well yeah, I got that wrong no doubt, because I don't know what it says. I never even READ it before selecting "Yes."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2006-12-06 07:21 ]</font>

[McLaughlin]

That doesn't make the information any less accurate.

[-Shimarisu-]

Actually that was not a troll, for once. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif

Forces are FACTUALLY cheaper to support than hunters. If you disagree, please show me your high level hunters and high level forces, oh and your arsenel of good equips on each.

[Akaimizu]

A lot of people tend to think that Forces have it harder because they aren't picking up dropped Meseta as much; however that really isn't as much of an issue with the job, but more so your actual in-fight role you play. Since my Ranger is being raised completely as a support role, and I play her that way, I'm in the same boat as Forces that play their support role (in terms of on-the-field meseta gathering).

So technically, I end up getting at least the same gains as my Ranger, but with no end costs to refill all the PP I lost.

Now in some cases, and with some levels, Hunters aren't bad off, because there are times when the mates drop with impunity. Though, outside of those times, quite often, some will walk out of the mission after chewing up a good number of them.

Now if you only had a 4 monomate deficit from entering the mission, or less, you're pretty good. If you walk away with more health items than before, you're great. A ranger is pretty much guarranteed to spend more than that for refills, within a mission.

However, on the other hand, if you really did lose more health items than that, to bring yourself back up to it, it will cost more. And they also take a little hit from PA refills, on top of that. Not as much as the Ranger, but when you add them both together. Yep.

As a group, Hunters don't need that as much when they have others to heal them. They get some great income and money saving, that way. A little cost perhaps to PP refills. The Force, still will pretty much see almost no money needed post-mission. The Ranger still generally has to cough up the bill to refill their PP unless the mission selected was a total cakewalk.

Not that I'm complaining about any of them. I'm totally used to the relative incomes of Rangers, so the meseta I was making as a Force was a pleasant surprise. Still. My character is a Ranger at heart, and Tynselle will still be primarily a gun-toter.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2006-12-06 07:28 ]</font>

[McLaughlin]

My Hunter is LV 10, and a LV 50 Cast. My weapons have decent percentages. 44% Earth Durandal, 50% Fire Durandal, 44% Dark Sodda Caliba, 50% Dark Fluorescent Bulb, and a 44% Lightning Durandal. Took me FOREVER to synthesise those, and cost me a bloody fortune; still cheaper than buying them from other shops though.

My Force is level 5, and synthesis is cake. if it works, I win. I don't have to remake the damn thing 20 times to get a certain percentage. Forces are far and away cheaper than Hunter with this fact alone. Not to mention they get Resta, which eliminates the need for Mates.

You can go live in La La land if you want. But here in Reality Ville, Forces are cheaper than Hunters, by a large margin no less.

[Oxidation]

Yeah i maxed out my Fo currently before update and its now just money and item hoarding but not any different than when i was lvling up. Meseta has never really been a problem, people just dont know how to make any...

[-Shimarisu-]

Dropped meseta in random rules counts as as random item. Just don't ever join "Give finder" games on ANY class and you'll begin to see which class is cheapest.

To support a GOOD, USEFUL, high level character, Hunters>Rangers>Forces in terms of money spent. And in early levels, Force is STILL the cheapest thanks to LOL, NO MONEY SPENT ON CURATIVES.

[Akaimizu]

And little money spent on PP recharges. The wands (online) recharge like monsters, even in early level soloing. Particularly if you back them up with a cheap handgun to *place hold* the monsters for a powerful technique.

Now I'm also curious if *race* has something to do with the speed of Wand PP regeneration. Do humans recharge that faster than Beasts and Casts, or is it the same across the board?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2006-12-06 07:36 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

On 2006-12-06 07:14, -Shimarisu- wrote:
And early on, if you don't have a good healer, and most people DO NOT, you'll spend a LOT on curatives.
It'S MUCH easier to grind a wand high and get a GOOD wand than to produce a GOOD % hunter weapon. Sure, if you want crappy weaopns in either class you have less money worries, but yuo still have that whole HEAL FOR FREE shit going on with a force.


You can SELL the low-% weapons you make, supposing you're not buying all the materials from an NPC shop you'll make a profit on each, instead of a loss. Striking partner machines are also dirt-cheap to raise while Tech is the most expensive.

Healing items are easy if you're not an idiot. Take the time to synth your starting stock at home, for way less than the finished items cost. If you play your hunter with any degree of skill in any sort of team you can easily avoid taking the sort of damage you need a healbot for. If the team happens to have a force you're in for exactly the same of free ride they give themselves.

[Akaimizu]

Which is the biggest reason why I tried to list how things change around depending whether you are in certain groups or not. I didn't compare PMs since anybody can choose to raise whatever kind of PM they like. Of course, Striking PMs are by far the cheapest, but not technically what I count when just considering the cost of just going out there and fight.

I know this sort has become a Hunter/Force discussion, though I was simply comparing my income differences between my Ranger and the Force in both kinds of situations.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2006-12-06 07:45 ]</font>

[-Shimarisu-]

There's no profit made on junky 10%s. NOBODY WANTS THEM.

I'm not an idiot, how bout you? Where's your high level force with all grinded up wands that you CONCENRATED serious money on? I dont see it. Because I have one and the cost of supprting it was WAY, WAY less than getting 40+ %s on hunter.

BTW, these days you have to buy synth mats from the shop. Nobody sells Mot Wood for cheap, they all synth it and sell the ash for 900M. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif It doesn't drop in plentiful supply either, I farmed for hours today on 3* luck an got 3 Mot Ash and 4 Mot Wood. It actually makes FAR more money just to sell mats by synthing them into higher rank matsb than to sell crap weapons.

Fuck off with your thinly veiled way of telling me I don't play with skill. Where are you playing? I play almost SOLELY on Moatoob A missions. YOU NEED CURATIVES. You can dodge every blow then? Well, stop playing this game because it's plainly too easy for your incredibly professional self.

Ad hell, I actually don't need to buy curatives any more, but I do use them. I just save them up on my force character. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/icon_smile.gif



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2006-12-06 07:48 ]</font>

[Sychosis]

Seems I've pressed a button! WHEEEE!

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2006-12-06 07:57, Sychosis wrote:
Seems I've pressed a button! WHEEEE!



Who are you? Oh, that person with a fomar avatar from page 1, I'd forgotton. What did you say again?

[Mystil]

On 2006-12-06 07:16, Careful wrote:
troll


No.. Shim speaks the truth.

With no force around a hunter will spend around 3000+ in mates. Theres no "players shops" to ease the wallet when you're during say..Endrum Renmants A.

[Sychosis]

On 2006-12-06 07:59, -Shimarisu- wrote:

On 2006-12-06 07:57, Sychosis wrote:
Seems I've pressed a button! WHEEEE!



Who are you? Oh, that person with a fomar avatar from page 1, I'd forgotton. What did you say again?



I said forces don't have it easy in the money department.

I never said hunters did. Or that any class had it easier than others. You people sure are combative.

The only class I'd say is any easier on the pocketbook than the others is Protranser what with their not needing any S rank weapons ever. Jerks.

But don't let me stop you. This is interesting.

[Mystil]

to further back this up..

Monomates = 50
Dimates = 150
(you ARE crazy if you buy trimates from NPC)
Antimates = 100

The one mission that is very cost affecting is... without a doubt Desert of Terror(rank B and A).

If you use 10 monos and 10 di's along with 5 antimates: 250 + 1500 + 500 = 2,250.
Desert Terror A rewards is 4000. Lets assume you wasted all your mates(very possible). Well you just went into a deficiet. Melee PP recharge unless you use gun/saber combo wont really exceed 300m, so that's a non issue. Shim talks about the other things that can break a hunter, but a huge portion of the money killing comes from in-game consumption. I would like to stress the point that dodging is not easy in this game. Monsters "glitch-hit". Any hunter knows what I mean by that. It's when you KNOW GOOD AND WELL you dodged an attack, and IS about 5-6 steps away from them, and somehow magically they STILL nail you.

[happy_cricket]

Oh yeah? Well Hunters are a bunch of poopsy potty noses. Forces rule! Gyah!!

[Doh42]

I don't know where that rule that Rangers cost more to recharge. I have a bundle and a half of B ranked guns on my Beast Ranger, I empty ALL of them every mission, it costs me 'round 400-600 to recharge.

I did the same on hunter to solo mission (just to test my limits). I had 15 B ranked weapons, dark elemental, and I went to have fun in Neudiaz Relics B... I had to recharge 2 times in town, and once before the end, for around 900 meseta each times.

A hunter who wishes to deal lots of damage will pay the bill, too. Of course, you can use Non-PA attacks and still DO damage (Rangers can't), but Melee PP costs the most out of all types. (Ranger and Force CAN also do damage with melee weapons for free, mind you)

I NEVER had to pay that much on Force, nor ranger.. And both of those don't use mono/di mates either; Force has resta, Ranger is usually able to survive solely on HP regen.

[PureEntropy]

I believe if anyone is soloing in a high level, they are not going to have it easy in the money department. Whereas if we're all in a party (Hunters, Forces, and Rangers) then we all profit. That is, if the loot is all Set in Order.

I, personally, don't know why anyone sets look to Give Finder - as it makes a support role feel like community service. I'm a nice guy, but I'm not THAT nice.

[Jasam]

On 2006-12-06 08:31, Mystil wrote:
to further back this up..

Monomates = 50
Dimates = 150
(you ARE crazy if you buy trimates from NPC)
Antimates = 100

The one mission that is very cost affecting is... without a doubt Desert of Terror(rank B and A).

If you use 10 monos and 10 di's along with 5 antimates: 250 + 1500 + 500 = 2,250.
Desert Terror A rewards is 4000. Lets assume you wasted all your mates(very possible). Well you just went into a deficiet. Melee PP recharge unless you use gun/saber combo wont really exceed 300m, so that's a non issue. Shim talks about the other things that can break a hunter, but a huge portion of the money killing comes from in-game consumption. I would like to stress the point that dodging is not easy in this game. Monsters "glitch-hit". Any hunter knows what I mean by that. It's when you KNOW GOOD AND WELL you dodged an attack, and IS about 5-6 steps away from them, and somehow magically they STILL nail you.




Forget the occassional "glitch hit" I've seen perma lag so bad that you would have to be psycic to dodge the attacks http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif (and watch as the enermy that has exp above its name continue to finish it animation and kill you anyway ¬.¬)

%'s are much more expensive then grinded Ra/Fo weapons (FORGET grinded with %s, thats just sick)
Hunters in the absence of a healing force will have the most mission costs. (possably even with a healing FO if mate useage becomes nessassary)

The only expensive part to a Force (or Ranger) is the original sink for techs, once thats out of the wait its smooth sailing.

At meseta gathering is a non-issue, its called random/order games

[Nayte]

Forces are the cheapest because they only need to buy resta.
On a serious note, you dont even need to buy curatives as a hunter, since you find plenty of mates doing runs anyway.

[Akaimizu]

I'm sorry that my one line turned into a topic like this. I may have to refrain from using such lines, in the future, or comparing my exploits as one from another, for the night.

[Carbinne]

I'd say Forces have a large cost to get started in order to find good casting equip (which doesn't require muddling with %s like Shimarisu says) and all the techs. After that it all comes down to recharging PP since, well, you don't need curative items as badly as hunters. Though it depends what you are doing, if you always party with a good healer or only fight in areas that don't pose a threat to you then you don't really need mates.

[panzer_unit]

On 2006-12-06 08:31, Mystil wrote:
The one mission that is very cost affecting is... without a doubt Desert of Terror(rank B and A).

If you use 10 monos and 10 di's along with 5 antimates: 250 + 1500 + 500 = 2,250.
Desert Terror A rewards is 4000. Lets assume you wasted all your mates(very possible). Well you just went into a deficiet.

I would like to stress the point that dodging is not easy in this game. Monsters "glitch-hit". Any hunter knows what I mean by that. It's when you KNOW GOOD AND WELL you dodged an attack, and IS about 5-6 steps away from them, and somehow magically they STILL nail you.

How much are those mates going to cost home-made? I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but IIRC they're significantly less expensive.

I've found "dodging" to be pretty ineffective in melee. Usually the monster's decided if it hits you or not long before the animation would lead you to believe. PA knockbacks, juggles, knockdowns, and flinches from the final hit in a combo... that stuff is much more effective on the defense for hunters when you're toe-to-toe. It's expensive on PP, but going back for a heal/recharge if you have to is cheap compared to spending extra time and using up more healing items because you're using regular attacks or a bad weapon type when you don't need to. A lot of hunters ignore options like pulling out a handgun for safe strafe-and-shoot when things get hectic. Some I've seen aren't even looking around for monsters who are incapacitated or busy with someone else and can be hit without any chance of sucking up a counter-attack.

[Mystil]

On 2006-12-06 10:32, panzer_unit wrote:

How much are those mates going to cost home-made? I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but IIRC they're significantly less expensive.


Well you can't synthesis consumables on the fly while in battle. Yea you can do it at home but when you run out of them in a game, will you leave a party just to be cheap?


A lot of hunters ignore options like pulling out a handgun for safe strafe-and-shoot when things get hectic.
There's a problem with this. When you do that, the monsters are going to go on a "well then, fuck you" marathon and gang up on the forces and rangers.






<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mystil on 2006-12-06 11:02 ]</font>

[Natrokos]

Hunters spending all their money on curatives??? You can't be serious curatives are found throughout every single level....If you want to argue that Hunters are more expensive go ahead but don't blame it on curatives. No one job is more expensive then another it's all about how you (duhhhhh) spend your money. Besides as a hunter whats the highest youve had to pay for a recharge?.......

Akaimizu it's the same regen rate for races but not for weapon manufacturers.

[Mystil]

Set in Order and Random will ensure no matter how many of those "plenty of mates" you find, wont rack up in your inventory. Please people, think harder about this stuff before jumping the gun.

[panzer_unit]

How much hand-holding do people need? This is ridiculous.


On 2006-12-06 10:56, Mystil wrote:
Well you can't synthesis consumables on the fly while in battle. Yea you can do it at home but when you run out of them in a game, will you leave a party just to be cheap?

Well, supposing you're doing Moatoob A or back-to-back Grove A missions... in a team without a force... it doesn't seem to be a big deal to me that people hit their rooms for 5 minutes to drop off loot / pick up mates and then re-join the group. Supposing you don't just grab a stack from storage you have to go through the synth menu all of twice to make a full stack and deposit it in your inventory. Your buddies wont even be done screaming NINE THOUSAND and doing dance emotes by the time you're back.

If it's like you totally run out of healing mid mission... what are you doing there? Play something easier until you're good at the game.


There's a problem with this. When you do that, the monsters are going to go on a "well then, fuck you" marathon and gang up on the forces and rangers.

Rangers aren't wimps on the defensive end. Supposing the monsters aren't crippled or frozen, they've got good def and evade. If you're playing in a group with no force, you don't have to worry about monsters "going after the force" when you back off and shoot down tough enemies. Makes sense, no?

[McLaughlin]

On 2006-12-06 11:12, Natrokos wrote:
Besides as a hunter whats the highest youve had to pay for a recharge?.......


647 meseta. I was so stunned I wrote it down. All 7 of my weapons were empty (not counting my Autoguns) because no one else was doing a damn thing They all went AFK because the game was Set Order, and the Leader was doing it too so no one got booted.

You go into a game without ANY mates and try to survive off what you find. ESPECIALLY in a Set Order/Random game.

Do it. I dare you.

[panzer_unit]

Do people remember back in PSO challenge mode where you'd ask your team if everyone was good for mates / scapes and make sure they were evenly shared between combats? I still do that if people look low on health. Items dropped by players are always given to the player that picks them up.

[N0LifeKing]

This argument is pointless but saying forces are cheaper by a large margin is inaccurate. If anything they are about the same. 1st to compare %'s tp force weps is like apples and oranges. Force weps dont get %'s because they are liked to their techs, and they also get a bonus for having the same element linked. If they had wep %'s as well the game would be unbalanced. But this is why grinded rods are so expensive a 7+hajirod is not chaep, and also a b rank tomoirod ungrinded will cost 100k+ assuming if you even find it.

Hunters dont have to rely on PA's. The reason most hunters take so much damage is because they spam PA's leaving them open at the end.

Resta is not cheap to use at 30pp each time most forces have to by another rod just to keep pp refill cost down. And unless a force spends the whole time being a healbot at the end of a mission it will cost over 1k to refill a pallete full of +5 haji's

IMHO if anyones got it bad its rangers no resta and they rely mostly on pp. I'm not doubting hunters being more expensive I'd thought I'd just point a few things out. http://www.pso-world.com/images/phpbb/icons/smiles/anime1.gif6

[Sychosis]

On 2006-12-06 09:47, Akaimizu wrote:
I'm sorry that my one line turned into a topic like this. I may have to refrain from using such lines, in the future, or comparing my exploits as one from another, for the night.



It's not your fault. Plenty of topics have gotten worse than this over smaller things. It's actually kinda funny how such trvial things get blown out of proportion.

My thoughts when I wrote my first response were actually "What, I'm a force and I'm broke. It isn't THAT easy." Amazing what the right mindset can do to your interpretation though.

[-Shimarisu-]

I just want everyone without a high level force AND a high level hunter, supported equally in good equips to just SHUT THE HELL UP AND LISTEN.

panzer_unit, you predominately play a ranger. Your opinion is mud.

Let's outline it again, shall we:

I have a human male, force 10, ranger 5, hunter 5.
I have a beast male, hunter 10, force 6, ranger 3.

Know what classes I'm giong to be? Fortetecher on the beast and guntecher on the human.

BUT WHY HAVE I LEVELLED FORCE SO HIGH???

Because it's so fucking cheap. Because I want to support my hunter in good equips. Because there's never a force around when you need them. Because dimates don't drop in anything like the abundance you need. Because in Desert A, if they don't have a force they ask you to fricking well leave. Because I want to make money in high level games, and nobody will join a high level game without a force.

FORCES.
HAVE.
IT.
EASIER.
PERIOD.

I have grinded up all my wands (5* GRM and Tenora) and they were not cheap. I broke a LOT. But compare that to having to make loads of high %. IT DOES NOT COMPARE, COST WISE. Then you take the issue with elements. I have equips on hunter that are ONLY GOOD FOR ONE AREA. I have to make a weaopn for every new element. On force, I just put a new tech in the wand.　I have OVER TWENTY weapons I use on my hunter, and TEN on my force.

I levelled my force job higher than it needed to be on BOTH my human and beast because it was cheaper. Because I was more useful, and it was easier to get games. More games=more earnings. I'm a maxxed level 10 force on my human, and guess what class I play on him now? THAT'S RIGHT, FORCE. I've never changed back. If the job cap was higher I'd be level 15+ by now.