Techer Guide/Thread 2.0

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Originally Posted by Hrith

Those are nice descriptions of what all skills related to melee techer do, but I cannot agree with those trees. Most of the trees are really really awful; they do not take into account most gameplays the class offers, and assume everyone plays like you.

Pure melee builds will never need any PP-related skill, as you will never use PP to attack, so that's 20 SP that will be 100% useless to a good melee TE.
Pure melee builds do not need any point in any elemental mastery.
Pure melee builds absolutely need Deband Cut and Deband Toughness maxed.
Pure mags have always been and will always be terrible, especially if you're going to use attack techniques.

You still have a lot to learn about melee techer (and evidently some of the game mechanics), but at least you wrote useful skill descriptions.

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Now, now, not to harsh. The problem with these guides in general is that the writer obviously suggests the builds and play style they like and believe in.

I am also a pure melee TE and only use techs in a handful of situations when it is to hard to get melee hits in like Diabo. On Anga for example I use pure melee, tanking/dodging attacks with a constant stream of smacks. I usually get wands resistant after the first round.

So I would indeed agree with your suggestions, but hey, it's luckily not my thread anymore :wacko:



Also, maybe you should add some good videos that show of Techer gameplay, because a lot of people still don't seem to know about it at all. Melee techers are still quite rare.

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Originally Posted by Hrith

Those are nice descriptions of what all skills related to melee techer do, but I cannot agree with those trees. Most of the trees are really really awful; they do not take into account most gameplays the class offers, and assume everyone plays like you.

Pure melee builds will never need any PP-related skill, as you will never use PP to attack, so that's 20 SP that will be 100% useless to a good melee TE.
Pure melee builds do not need any point in any elemental mastery.
Pure melee builds absolutely need Deband Cut and Deband Toughness maxed.
Pure mags have always been and will always be terrible, especially if you're going to use attack techniques.

You still have a lot to learn about melee techer (and evidently some of the game mechanics), but at least you wrote useful skill descriptions.

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good point, i have to agree with most of it
but whats wrong about pure mags?

I'd say mostly with equipping all possible weapons that came out or will come out. That's why I don't make my mag pure to begin with. I want to be able to equip every single wand that is gonna get released.

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Originally Posted by Hrith

Those are nice descriptions of what all skills related to melee techer do, but I cannot agree with those trees. Most of the trees are really really awful; they do not take into account most gameplays the class offers, and assume everyone plays like you.

Pure melee builds will never need any PP-related skill, as you will never use PP to attack, so that's 20 SP that will be 100% useless to a good melee TE.
Pure melee builds do not need any point in any elemental mastery.
Pure melee builds absolutely need Deband Cut and Deband Toughness maxed.
Pure mags have always been and will always be terrible, especially if you're going to use attack techniques.

You still have a lot to learn about melee techer (and evidently some of the game mechanics), but at least you wrote useful skill descriptions.

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First paragraph: I didn't assume anyone played like me. I specifically gave builds I've condemned in the past, like the Limit Break one, because I know that some people play differently from me and the builds have something going for them that no other build does as well. My goal was specifically to avoid being biased when giving build examples, no matter how poorly I thought of it. I would never recommend or even use most of these builds, but they do things that other builds simply cannot do as well, and if someone wants to try them out, then providing these builds can help them. But they have to do something worth doing. That is an unavoidable bias omnipresent in guides, having to judge whether or not something has worth or not. If I see things as having worth that you do not, or vice versa, then that's simply a difference of perspective and cannot be helped. I'm willing to discuss merits, but if there's an impossible compromise or understanding then the best thing you can do about it is write your own guide.

Melee builds: For pure wand melee, yeah, but those builds you're referring to aren't pure wand melee so they can still use PP skills. Not that there's anything better to take anyway.

Melee builds have maxed Wind Mastery to enhance Zanverse damage. Higher burst damage and better for supporting other players. 8.8% increase adds up with a lot of players. It's also good for A.I.S. or Photon Turrets. Not really seeing anything that could be taken that would be better either.

Deband Cut and Deband Toughness aren't necessary at all. The only thing those skills are good for as non-Te/Hu are saving your ass because you messed up, and that's assuming your units aren't already doing a good enough job. I cannot justify providing builds to cater toward incompetence. I am willing to justify them for supporting other players though, since they would really help a tank.

Pure mags aren't terrible just because you say so. Provide a decent explanation. The S-ATK builds would have bad tech damage no matter how much T-ATK you put in, and lose out on single target damage and subclass weapon damage. Mags given are just examples anyway. I was working under the assumption that people would adjust their mags based on race so that they could equip what they need. I'll write a section about race, mags, and equipment requirements and add a disclaimer to the build section saying that race and mags provided for builds are solely examples.

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Originally Posted by Perfect Chaos

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Shifta/Deband effect: Actually I tried to average it based on how many players are likely to be affected as well as max number of players. The min-max is based on estimates on how low/high the stats for other players would be. I do see what you mean with the total effect though, that is misleading of me to say. I'll fix that during maintenance.

Support tech range: Noted, terrible error on my part. Pulling all nighters to write the guide was not a good idea in retrospect. So that means that support tech range is range * TB + 1-2m (depending on craft, if applicable). So 2 (*3 if charged) * 1.5 + 1-2m, for a maximum range of 10-11m when charged. Well, every m counts, but that's a small increase, too bad. Thanks for the heads up.

Reverse Bonus + Deband Toughness: This one's wording probably needs clarification. Reverse Bonus heals the player at 100% when maxed, and then adds Deband Toughness. So it's basically the same as using Deband Toughness on a player that already had full health. I'll change the wording so that it's more clear.

Technique Attack Defense Up: This is a more literal translation of what it says for the skill name in JP. Character limits force this to be Technique Defense Up. I was thinking of changing up Kuronians to be more literal as well, but decided it would be confusing that way, since any literal translation would ditch the Kuro part in favor of black, and I might as well use Kuronians if I kept that part, so that's what I did. I didn't change Technique Attack Defense Up because that really is what the name means, but it is pretty silly to deliberately not use the patch's name, so I'll get around to changing it.

Long Time Assist: I was thinking of the default 2 minute duration without Extend Assist, which...is kind of irrelevant to a Techer player anyway. I'll have to change that.

Uncharged Multi Recipe: That's silly. I knew that's how it works for offensive techs, but support too? Ugh, Sega...oh well. Thanks for the heads up.

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Originally Posted by LonelyGaruga

Deband Cut and Deband Toughness aren't necessary at all. The only thing those skills are good for as non-Te/Hu are saving your ass because you messed up, and that's assuming your units aren't already doing a good enough job. I cannot justify providing builds to cater toward incompetence. I am willing to justify them for supporting other players though, since they would really help a tank.

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I remember the one time I played a single Ultimate Quest with you, you died at least twice during that one quest and we even had Deband Cut/Toughness maxed.

Just saying... :wacko:

The DPS loss because of dying is bigger then most small tech multipliers can make up for. Especially when in an MPA with all those 0HP max PP builds people use.

There is even more:
As a TE/BR I also have JR recover and thanks to deband cut, whenever I get knocked down, I recover most lost HP (even in Ultimate), which means I need to spend less time casting Resta > more DPS. Being able to keep going is also a form of DPS and deband cut and toughness makes a very large difference.

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Originally Posted by qoxolg

I remember the one time I played a single Ultimate Quest with you, you died at least twice during that one quest and we even had Deband Cut/Toughness maxed.

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Which speaks for my poor equipment and lack of experience at UQs (like the second run I've done?). I was running around with like, level 4 crafted +10/3 units with no HP affixed. I was also running as Te/Hu, which is the class I consider Deband Cut/Toughness and HP affixes to be preferable for.

Really doesn't mean anything. If I was going Te/Fi or Te/Br, or if my equipment was actually passable, or if I actually ran UQs consistently enough to actually know what enemies are doing and still died on a regular basis, sure, point taken. But none of those things are true.

And honestly, no matter what, I'm looking at things from a top level perspective. Partly because of my time as a fighting game player. The only level of play that matters is the highest achievable. I'm not there, so my experience doesn't matter. It matters more than people who have less experience than I do, but that's about it. So I prefer to try to look at things from what I know is achievable, regardless of whether I'm at that level or not. I can play decently, but as long as there's room for improvement or another player better than me at everything I do, then I can't say I'm good. So of course I would be unable to live up to the expectations I have of myself, never mind what other people might expect of me. I'm really not that great.

Also my only UQ deaths so far have been Anga bombs and losing sight of a belly flopping UQ Rockbear. Everything else has been fine.

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Originally Posted by LonelyGaruga

Reverse Bonus + Deband Toughness: This one's wording probably needs clarification. Reverse Bonus heals the player at 100% when maxed, and then adds Deband Toughness. So it's basically the same as using Deband Toughness on a player that already had full health. I'll change the wording so that it's more clear.

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I know that, but after a max Deband Toughness is applied to a player, they would have 80% of their new HP value, since 80% is the reciprocal of 125%. My example of a player having 800 base HP clearly shows that. So all you need to do is change 75% to 80%.

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Originally Posted by LonelyGaruga

Long Time Assist: I was thinking of the default 2 minute duration without Extend Assist.

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The default support duration without Extend Assist (i.e. without using TE) is 1 minute, though. It was only ever 2 minutes pre-episode 3 when Extend Assist was a 10-point skill and people were taking only the 1st point.

Oh, I see what you mean. Never mind, yeah, I'll change that.

Weird, thought Shifta was 2m by default, but Extend Assist clearly says +120s on its description. I struggle to remember when Extend Assist was even implemented, I'm so used to it I just thought 2m was the default. Non-Techer Shifta is incredibly awful, geez. Thanks for pointing that out. Really basic oversights on my end, sorry.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by qoxolg

Also, maybe you should add some good videos that show of Techer gameplay, because a lot of people still don't seem to know about it at all. Melee techers are still quite rare.

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It just occurred to me on a reread that you were addressing me here, whoops. Yeah I should do that. I'll stalk nico and YT for some decent gameplay and make a video section. There should be plenty of useful content from that alone. I'm playing Fo/Te right now, but I could level Fighter since it's 70 on this character and upload Te/Fi stuff too. Gonna need like 8 skill trees for Techer if I do both Fo/Te and Te/Fi on the same character though.

I could also use other people's videos if they want me to, so if anyone wants that, give a heads up please.

There are Two main Techer ideas as I see it: the S-atk Techer and the T-atk Techer.
Te/Br S-atk Techer is what everyone has gotten to know since episode three gave Braver the Attack Advance skill; AA boosts the damage from the normal attack, but not the tech explosion! Also, upon taking a closer look at Wand Reactor; it feels like a skill intended to take a stat that an S-atk build would have a hard time using, and applying it back onto their S-atk so it's still fine anyway. S-atk Techer's wand attack damage is consistent no-matter how many enemies are around.

Te/Fi T-atk Techer banks on High-grade mobbing thanks to wand explosions damaging other nearby enemies; so by catching a lot of enemies in a zondeel, while your basic attack will hit all of them once, the resulting explosions will hit all of the enemies ensnared! that makes your potential damage skyrocket depending on how many enemies you pull in! Fighter's stances are generally good, though I will admit sometimes it is hard to get all of the enemies to face the same direction as they are pulled in... though other skills like Chase Advance and Chase Advance Plus help push your damage if you got a status effect going on the enemies too! Tech Arts JA might not help you in hitting enemies with your wand, but it DOES lead me into saying that T-atk Techer can still be really good at using techs offensively! not to mention that you could "prime" your next tech for tech arts by using zondeel, zanverse, or megiverse to JA into the tech. I remember going back to t-atk Te/Fi for a Mining Base Defense XH, and when a bunch of enemies spawned on the other side of the map, I said to myself "oh right. I can enter wise stance and rafoie them without going there myself and still deal good damage!" EDIT: oh yeah also Adrenalin lets you basically max your buff duration with uncharged shifta and deband if nobody else is around to buff.

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Originally Posted by Hrith

Pure melee builds will never need any PP-related skill, as you will never use PP to attack, so that's 20 SP that will be 100% useless to a good melee TE.
Pure melee builds do not need any point in any elemental mastery.
Pure melee builds absolutely need Deband Cut and Deband Toughness maxed.
Pure mags have always been and will always be terrible, especially if you're going to use attack techniques.

You still have a lot to learn about melee techer (and evidently some of the game mechanics), but at least you wrote useful skill descriptions.

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I'll agree with with not really needing any PP regen skill for Te/Br; freeing up points for Deband Cut, but Te/Fi would still need at least one or the other (I have never used PP convert since the old trees made me choose between it and wand reactor)
any techer build should have some wind mastery in it; all of my sources state that Wind Mastery boosts Zanverse's damge (among other skills) and any techer worth their beans should know when to zondeel, when to megiverse, and when to zanverse.

pure mags are good if you are going all-in on one type of damage over the other. but a little dex can help out too I feel. anyone with a high S-atk mag should consider giving Te/Br a try, while those with high T-atk should consider Te/Fi

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Originally Posted by Zorak000

There are Two main Techer ideas as I see it: the S-atk Techer and the T-atk Techer.
Te/Br S-atk Techer is what everyone has gotten to know since episode three gave Braver the Attack Advance skill; AA boosts the damage from the normal attack, but not the tech explosion! Also, upon taking a closer look at Wand Reactor; it feels like a skill intended to take a stat that an S-atk build would have a hard time using, and applying it back onto their S-atk so it's still fine anyway. S-atk Techer's wand attack damage is consistent no-matter how many enemies are around.

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Te/Br also has Banish Arrow techs so it can make good use of TATK as well.

Wand Reactor actually diminishes the value of SATK by inflating your total SATK. 25 SATK could be 1% damage with a Fighter weapon with low SATK, but when you switch to a Wand and get a huge chunk of SATK from Reactor, the impact of 25 SATK becomes a lot less.