Official Acrotecher Thread

[Zorafim]

This is another class that doesn't interest me. People say that it's meant to mix melee and support, but the way I see it they're better off with a gun or a wand. I'm not at all impressed with their meleeing (a lv70 took forever to kill lv20 rappies in some video, that's all the information I have), and their teching S rank selection doesn't go well together.

I'm still waiting for a class that's more interesting than fortefighter.

[Pillan]

On 2007-05-09 22:31, Zorafim wrote:
(a lv70 took forever to kill lv20 rappies in some video, that's all the information I have)

I’m sorry but with 4% less base ATP and the same PA restriction as the current WT, how is that even possible? I don’t see how anyone could mess up like that if they tried. Was the guy spamming Rising Strike level 1 or something? I mean, Rappies do have like double the HP of normal mobs, but still I can’t imagine it taking too long.

It’s not often that I get shocked like this, but that guy must have really sucked…

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2007-05-09 22:31, Zorafim wrote:
This is another class that doesn't interest me. People say that it's meant to mix melee and support

It's meant to mix tech and support. Tech will be your highest damage. If you want to solo, OR MAXIMISE DAMAGE IN PARTY you should go tech, use whip to immobilise, use twin handguns to shoot down flying enemies. Only go melee in situations where it will do the most damage AFTER status infliction via foie. Ie, single daggers on large enemies.

It is potentially a fantastic solo class. It beats FT for solo. Which is great because FT owns too much at solo for a forte class (fortes shuold be specialised for PARTY PLAY) and needs to be taken down a peg by a GOOD tech heavy hybrid for those who prefer tech.

You want predominant melee, go WT.

I see this as a very good class for a newman or human. Forget going beast or cast. WT beasts and casts manage ine, with optimal wand equips and units their tech is 4/5ths the power of newman WT and ATP far better.

I wonder why people can't look at the damn numbers and see logic. That's without even needing to play the class. I have NOT played the class but I duoed throughout AoI beta with a human AT player. I was on my beast WT. I can see how this class is meant to be played.

My newman is going AT/FT/GT and my beast is going WT/FF/FG.

See the damn numbers? Now tack on the levels of PAs possible and note that between level 30 and level 40 attack techs there is not an AMAZING world of difference, especially given not much lower levels of TP. ESPECIALLY considering soloing when tech will be augmented by ten extra levels of support.

This is not like the difference between WT's current level 20 tech PAs and FT's level 30, because WT has much lower TP.

It's a huge world of difference however, between AT's level 20 MELEE PAs and FF's lvl 40 (in AoI). Melee should be your absolute last resort on this class.

It's a great support class and a great solo class for teching fans.

[-Shimarisu-]

On 2007-05-09 21:44, NIloklives wrote:
The only thing that has me a bit thrown by this class is at a techer class it lacks the use of bows. I undderstand it was for balancing purposes...but it's just wonky...

It's quite likely going to be lvl 5 FO, lvl 3 RANGER requirement IMO.

It uses twin handguns instead of bows, and while it gets S in daggers and twin daggers, bear in mind twin daggers and daggers are equippable as a basic FORCE class.

Twin daggers instead of bows is just fine and dandy. May I recommend learning the ice twin handgun PA on your human or newman that's going AT, as that's the most commonly used element for shooting bosses. At least one new AoI boss is ice element, but the ice PA is still going to be your most used ranged PA if you still plan on playing older missions.

Edit: Also note, ATP mod is low. You are still going to be better off with cards in most situations, but for shooting bosses with no other option, I'd suggest learning a twin handgun PA. Not all of them, because your predominant method of attack WILL be with techs.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: -Shimarisu- on 2007-05-10 02:22 ]</font>

[Niloklives]

oh trust e I'm in no danger of being caught unprepared. I already have a human GT/PT/WT switching over to AT is a non issue. already have mosy of mt bullets at 21+ I have a fair number of fan bullet and twin HG bullets and a few weapon PAs. only things I'll need for AT is a whip PA. but yeah the class looks fun.

[Akaimizu]

I think my Acrotecher will be minorly unique. This is mainly because the one I'm making is coming from a strong Guntecher background. I'll have maybe 6 or so free PA slots for new PAs, so I may decide to work more on the support side of things than attack, not that I wont have attack techs. Thing is (and what I'm mostly known here for), is that she is just maybe a few hours from Mastering all the Twin Handgun arts. Not planning on dropping them anytime soon as I'm rather proud of that achievement. It's totally "in-character" for her, and it took a long and concentrated effort to get there.

Of course, I'll be perfectly up-front as to what Arts my Acrotecher (which will be her secondary class) has so that people know what they are expecting and make decisions to have me or not.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Akaimizu on 2007-05-10 07:38 ]</font>

[Pillan]

That’s the thing Shimarisu; I doubt anyone seriously considering this class wants to deal heavy melee damage, or they’d play something with 40 skills. WT and aT suck in damage and make up for that lack in versatility. No other classes (besides maybe PT) can really be debated over which weapon type maximizes their damage.

The only real difference I see is that aT has something no one else can do (much like PT), which makes it useful to the party. Everything WT does can be done better by the other melee classes (including PT) and the other force classes.

But what bothers me most thus far is that most PSO/U players make the fallacy of assuming larger damage numbers mean higher damage per time. My major point this whole time is that you’ll hit twice as fast with virtually any melee PA that aT can use and you’ll do more than half the damage of any tech that can be fired once a second. So, in the condition that there aren’t many enemies in your range, you’re losing damage that you would have dealt with melee. Of course, in the condition that you could keep those enemies in range for the entire duration of Dambarta, techs would win again, but in any party someone else will have completed their PA around the time Buten finishes (if not before) and send everything flying away.

I’d also agree that aT is a safer solo class and more versatile as a human or Newman, but unless it’s a stage with technique resistant enemies, I’ll argue that a good fT like Cherry could easily beat your solo time. As I’ve already said, by going aT or WT, you’re sacrificing 10-30% damage from those missing 10 levels, plus base TP, plus rods (higher TP and 8% additional power). Plus you’d only want to consider that if you wanted to use it for solo.

And actually it is quite comparable to WT’s level 20 PAs. Even if you had some godly unit to buff your TP, it would still lack 10-20% damage depending on the PA (the only ones that lack 10% being the Dam- and Gi- series techs) plus 8% element plus whatever hidden element bonus the technique gains over 21-30. As I stated above, that difference increases from 10-30% when comparing level 30 to 40 techs, but you’re a little better off since the multiplier is already somewhere between 130% and 280%. You’ll be doing the old fT damage and still be lame simply because you can’t keep up with the new one.

I’ll go through the number logic right now, comparing the maximum deviations so that you can see it’s generally not a big deal and will be decent either way. I’ll compare with level 100 characters with level 10 in their class and 9 star weapons with neutral element.

WT has 20% more HP than aT. On a Beast male at level 100, this means you’re losing 433 HP but you’ll have 2384 already, so you probably won’t miss it that much.

WT has 18% more ATP. This means you’re losing out on 142 of your 759 ATP but when you add in a 9 star dagger, 41+ buffs and debuffs, and level 20 Buten Shuren-zan what happens? I really don’t know the answer to these, but I’ll try it out now. I’ll also add in fF so you can see how both classes suck in comparison.

The Beast male aT is dealing 8085 per complete Buten Shuren-zan combo and the Beast male WT is dealing 8490 if he buffs and debuffs. So, yeah, the beast WT is dealing slightly more, but it’s not a big gap. The fF would be doing 8790 damage assuming he wasn’t buffed in any way. Then when you add in the fact that the rest of the team is dealing 21-24% more damage based on the aT buffs and debuffs, WT really starts to look bad.

The ATA isn’t even worth talking about. It’s godly for a force or a hunter.

The TP is 130%, so I’ll go ahead and do a Newman female Dambarta damage calculation. We’ll compare the YC 9 star wand to the 9 star rod. I’ll assume Dambarta only gains an extra 10% damage after 30. I’ll add in WT too for more fun. For the sake of comparing it to Buten Shuren-zan, I’ll only consider 4 ticks on both optimal and normal number of targets. I also added in 31+ Rentier for the fT and 41+ for the aT.

If there are 3 targets in range, Newman female aT Dambarta does around 7252 damage, but with all 6, that goes up to 14504. The Newman female fT will be doing 8501 damage and 17003 with all 6 targets. You’re losing about 15% damage efficiency because you didn’t switch to fT. The Newman female WT is only doing 5720 with 3 targets and 11440 with all 6. Yeah, the lack of high level buffs is really starting to hurt here.

You lose 22% DFP between WT and aT. As a Caseal, that’s only 37 points (which means you take 9 more damage per hit). It takes 21 more damage per hit than an fF. All these calculations assume neutral armor, of course. (I’m using the damage resistance is equal to DFP/4 assumption.)

EVP is high, but you still won’t block 50% of the time because a Newman female fT is nowhere near that. You’ll block even less in a party since you’re dealing with so few enemies actually within striking range. MST is godly. STA is normal.


So, yeah, that’s about it just based on the numbers. Take it as you will. Personally that’s enough for me to continue my support of aT and say you’re going to suck regardless and that your only redeeming factor is the buffs. WT has more weapons choices and slightly higher damage, but that really doesn’t make up for the lack of support in my opinion.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-05-10 08:43 ]</font>

[Shiro_Ryuu]

Umm, you know, hybrid classes weren't designed to be the best at one thing, they were supposed to be somewhat good at two things. If a Acrotecher had dambarta damage the same as Fortetecher, that would be called broken.

Sounomi can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not even sure if Dambarta is a good choice for a tech for Acrotechers because Madoogs have suck PP, and Dambarta just drains that stuff away. And if you're gonna use a wand and a kikami or something, I think you'd mind as well stay fT.

Even in a party, it would be nice to have at least one more character who can put in some damage. One person can make a difference in damage output. What I also like about Acrotechers for Newmans is that it gives them a different option for those who like to do some magic damage but at the same time, don't want to have suck HP. Think of it as another alternative to them.

[Pillan]

On 2007-05-10 08:55, Shiroryuu wrote:
Umm, you know, hybrid classes weren't designed to be the best at one thing, they were supposed to be somewhat good at two things. If a Acrotecher had dambarta damage the same as Fortetecher, that would be called broken.

Yeah, if you added another 10 levels to their attack techs AND gave them 50 buffs, they would clearly outdamage fTs. But ST didn’t and they won’t for that very reason. But, when you think about the other hybrid classes, their weaknesses aren’t nearly as significant as the vast gaps between the techer classes. It’s not a huge deal, but it is something to think about.

On 2007-05-10 08:55, Shiroryuu wrote:
Sounomi can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not even sure if Dambarta is a good choice for a tech for Acrotechers because Madoogs have suck PP, and Dambarta just drains that stuff away. And if you're gonna use a wand and a kikami or something, I think you'd mind as well stay fT.

Earlier I was told that Madoogs have about the same TP as YC wands, so you can really assume it would be nearly the same damage. (Looking back to Ryna's post, the 6 star Madoog has 25 less TP than the 6 star YC wand. You can assume they have about 93-94% of the TP of a YC wand at the same rank.) Also the only reason I considered Dambarta is because that’s the maximum damage per time any techer can get (assuming your total TP value is significantly higher than enemy MST and there are a lot of targets, of course). Maybe we’ll see something weird happen with the other tech types when you equip the S rank /quick and a Madoog, but no one can really estimate that at this point. It’s just my way of saying “this is the most you could possibly do at this time”.

On 2007-05-10 08:55, Shiroryuu wrote:
Even in a party, it would be nice to have at least one more character who can put in some damage. One person can make a difference in damage output. What I also like about Acrotechers for Newmans is that it gives them a different option for those who like to do some magic damage but at the same time, don't want to have suck HP. Think of it as another alternative to them.

I want you to know that I have nothing against Newman aTs. I just wanted to bring up the facts that there is a vast difference between aT and fT technique damage and that everyone is at least equally good at aT. I’m just thinking of aT as another alternative for everyone and letting you know that you’re not doing more damage than anyone else and your biggest contributions to the team are your buffs and Zalure.

The only people I’m clearly against are those who say Cast and Beast aTs will suck and technique damage is more important simply because it’s 10 levels from 40. They lose versatility, but it’s not too important since there are only a couple melee resistant mobs in the game (and equally as few tech resistant). You do a decent amount of damage either way, but that decent amount is just a lot less than everyone else.


As a small aside, I forgot to add the Newman fT bonus and the Beast fF bonus into those calculations, but it won’t make a huge difference.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Pillan on 2007-05-10 09:38 ]</font>

[chibiLegolas]

On 2007-05-09 21:44, NIloklives wrote:
The only thing that has me a bit thrown by this class is at a techer class it lacks the use of bows. I undderstand it was for balancing purposes...but it's just wonky...

Wow. I didn't even notice that!
Without the use of longbows, what's an AT gonna use on bosses? Twin guns, cards (when they're not airborne), or damage techs.
Hmm...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but all of those choices forces you to be in mid range in boss fights rather than be in the back, no?

Kinda seems like even in boss fights, they're DESIGNED to be heal bots. You can't hang way back anymore with your low HP. And the only true damage you can be dealing at a distance WILL be techs. (I currently only use techs purely for SE on my cast).
Whatever race you end up picking for AT, it's pretty clear that with AT's supperior resta 41+ range, they've got resta duty, no? Dealing damage is secondary (depending on your party set up).

On a side note:
I wouldn't say resta 41+ on a newman/human isn't overkill. It might seem that way now with our level cap. But I'm sure healing a lvl 100 beast FF 30 would appreciate the full heal compared to casts (for example).

On my FOcaseal, I can tell ya, I want higher resta mainly for the range. My resta's not all that bad and can heal a FF up to 75%. But missing them with resta cause they're all over the map is a real bytch!

Well, for those anti beast/cast AT's out there. Wouldn't you say AT is much better than FT? And you can't deny there's plenty of us out there, no? I've certainly seen plenty passing by when I was hanging out at the buffing cube when I was still leveling mine.

We're out there folks and will no longer be ashamed of our gimped-ness! It is time to hang up our FT robes and attain new ones! I will hold my head high, and show no fear! For I know the road for beast/cast AT is a long one. But rest assured team mates, when you spot a beast/cast AT, you are almost garanteed to have every mob lubed up for you to slice through. And all while healing your wounds.
We may not help much in the actual art of slaying. But we still got your backs.


Why choose AT over GT some may ask? Well, sometimes it gets on my nerves when I accidentally overide a higher buff/debuff. And you can't blame others like me who sometimes wants to switch between cards or buff/debuffs as their primary skill.

Remember folks. This is all just a game. And crunching #'s bores the hell out of me. All I have to say is for those wrong race/class combos out there, we just gotta try extra harder to make things work. This is still beta afterall. So not everything's set in stone, and we can't truely trust those #'s anyways.