The fall of the Newman race

[landman]

Technically no one has the ability to cast TECHNICs in PSU, there are the weapons that allow the characters to use them, just like some melee and guns in PSO have a special effect based on a TECHNIC.

[Sinue_v2]

The Divine Maiden can and certain high-ranking officials in the COG and their children can. Technically, anybody COULD, but the process by which to enable people to cast techniques without Wands and Rods is illegal.

[panzer_unit]

On 2008-05-14 17:24, Sinue_v2 wrote:
(Numans) They were biosoldiers. Not slaves.

... it's dangerous physical labor for someone else's benefit. Or are you saying that engineered Photon technology researchers are more like biosoldiers?

As for simply "walking out of a lab", you're right. That is a shallow premise. One that both PSO and PSU uses to a large degree.

Sounds like "I am rubber you are glue..." are you going to back that up with an example?

.. what argument have you got to back that up?

Read what I wrote, and you'll have your answer.

You wrote exclusively about how PSU Newmans are like Dezolians. No mention of what makes them anything like Numans. So is it the pointy ears or the recycled name? 'cause that's all they've got.

If her brain has an accelerated pace of learning and memory retention, then yes, that makes them highly intelligent and more intelligent humans simply because she can learn that much faster.

In any case, it does not fit in at all with Beasts who are known to be a very stupid and slow race of people.

I just let Rolf get killed and bought a replacement from the Clone Lab. Oh look, he knows everything the original did. He must be super-intelligent too because, he instantly learned all the techs and everything the original took a whole career to figure out! Or the cloning process is good at preformatting a normal-quality brain with tons of information. If it works on Kain it will work on anything.

Beasts are the worst of the organic races at casting techniques.

They're perfectly fine with the same techniques that Numans use in the genesis games... support in PSU is much less TP dependent. Meanwhile they're ill-suited to the offensive techs Nei and Rika never used.

Again, that's a very weak position to take. Lucaim Nav also uses claws primarily, and also uses fists, both of which are very quick, lightweight, and close range weapons which Numans in the past have prefered. In fact, that would make him closer to the Numan archetype because he doesn't use any heavy weapons at all.

Yes, if they made Nav catlike and put him in your party most of the time that would be totally valid. Fortunately for everyone that role went to Laia.

[landman]

In any case, it does not fit in at all with Beasts who are known to be a very stupid and slow race of people.

Dr Tomrain is a Beast...

[Sinue_v2]

... it's dangerous physical labor for someone else's benefit.

/facepalm

Please, seriously, tell me you know the difference between a soldier and a slave.

are you going to back that up with an example?

How do you expect me to quantify a point about a LACK of information concerning their origin? Go through the PSO/PSU scripts and point out where the origins of Numans (or even CASTS for that matter) is anywhere near as detailed or woven into the overall storylines as Numen are in the original PS series. It isn't, and further, what little information IS present is poorly thought out and contradictory - especially in PSO's case. I.E. Dr. Montegue (a Newman) created the Newman race.

You wrote exclusively about how PSU Newmans are like Dezolians. No mention of what makes them anything like Numans.

That was the point of that segment of my reply, about how Numans were blended with Dezolian culture. You asked what evidence I had to support it, after I already presented the evidence. Aren't you following the discussion?

I just let Rolf get killed and bought a replacement from the Clone Lab. Oh look, he knows everything the original did.

Clones are not the same person they were cloned from. Rika is a clone of Nei, yet she is not Nei. The "Clone Lab" is simply a replacement for a "Church" to give a sci-fi explanation to ressurection, and isn't a major plotpoint. As such, there is no information as to how a cloned person would have the same memories, knowledge, and experience. It simply wasn't important enough to explain. Perhaps it happened like PSO Ep III where Kranz died and was "cloned" in a similar manner. In such a case, the cloned brain was created from the outset with all the proper neural pathways and such already in place. Information on changes in neural pathways (I.E. memories, knowledge, personality) were constantly updated while he was still alive so they could recreate him at the moment just before his death.

Creating a brain with the proper chemistry and neural pathways already in place from the outset is different than a brain which has no knowledge perset and must form those pathways as it learns.

And this is not to mention that both the Phantasy Star Compendium and World of Phantasy Star books make mention of their intelligence, as well as the intelligence of Musk Cats - the race which they were inspired by. So again, you have the character designers word against... well, yours.

They're perfectly fine with the same techniques that Numans use in the genesis games... support in PSU is much less TP dependent. Meanwhile they're ill-suited to the offensive techs Nei and Rika never used.

Not all support spells are non-reliant on TP, such as Resta and GiResta. Also, what limits most support techniques in PSU is not a character's race, but their job. In the original games, you did not differenciate between a character and their job. In PSU, you do, because characters are designed from the outset to be as "blank slate" as possible to allow players the freedom of choice on how to play their characters.

What is most important in defining stereotypes that the designers wish to impart, is to look at the characters who's jobs cannot change. The NPC's. Not ONE beast in your party is ever shown to be competent at techniques, even support, or presented as such.



I feel like I'm debating a Creationist here....

Dr Tomrain is a Beast...

You're wrong.

[landman]

If I am wrong then you are saying the PSU Perfect bible is also wrong because in page 71 it explicitly says that Kanal Tomrain is a Beast, the same for The Elements of PSU (artbook), page 52, and I don't have the AOI Perfect Bible yet but I doubt this information will be any different in there.

[Sinue_v2]

First off, has either book been translated and uploaded in the same manner in which the PSCompendium or World of PS books have? And if so, please provide a link. I will do so as well for the PSC and WoPS books if you want.

Secondly, the books are wrong then. Or the translation was wrong. The games themselves takes priority canonically over all other media, official or not. Dr. Tomrain has a human character model, with no distinguishable Beast traits. IIRC, Nor does he register as a Beast when you compare luck of Human Males and Beast Males while you have him in your party during story missions. He may be PART beast, but not a full one. And yes, they can crossbreed with other races.

The only time supplementary information is considered canon is when it's officially licensed and approved by the game designers and when there is no contradictory information on the subject in the game itself.

Regardless, the entire point doesn't matter as there ARE Beast scientists which are shown throughout the game. That doesn't mean that Beasts as a whole are known as an intelligent race - just like No Vol doesn't set the presidence that humans are an unintelligent race.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sinue_v2 on 2008-05-16 08:09 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

On 2008-05-16 04:05, Sinue_v2 wrote:
Please, seriously, tell me you know the difference between a soldier and a slave.

I do. So you're saying the research purpose PSU Newmen were engineered for is MORE like soldiering than the purpose Beasts were engineered for? That it makes them the "obvious" fit?

What about Rika, her purpose - according to you, before it got you between a rock and a hard place - was adaption to life on an increasingly-harsh Mota. Exactly like Beasts. Whoops, eh?

You wrote exclusively about how PSU Newmans are like Dezolians. No mention of what makes them anything like Numans.

That was the point of that segment of my reply, about how Numans were blended with Dezolian culture. You asked what evidence I had to support it, after I already presented the evidence. Aren't you following the discussion?

Seriously, what about PSU's Newmen is like Numen AT ALL? You only pointed out the similarities with Dezolians. All I see is pointy ears, and even at that Beasts do a better job thanks to fur.

If you had any substantial argument on this point you would have used it by now. Instead all you can do is plug your ears and yell LA LA LA. I'm willing to listen to reason but you have to give me something reasonable to listen to.

And this is not to mention that both the Phantasy Star Compendium and World of Phantasy Star books make mention of their intelligence, as well as the intelligence of Musk Cats - the race which they were inspired by. So again, you have the character designers word against... well, yours.
...
games themselves takes priority canonically over all other media, official or not.

Ooh, I've been told by "the bible". But why do the catgirl characters in-game seem so simple minded? Which takes priority?

While Beasts are stereotyped as stupid, Laia (mostly) and Leo are pretty sharp when it comes to observiation, judging character, and reasoning things out. Tylor - regardless of how the battle goes - decides to side with the Guardians based on the character of their leader. On the whole they're not really well-informed, but Beasts tend to make good use of any information they do find out.

Beast-made technology is pretty impressive too... Tenora Works weapons and armor are the most statistically impressive most of the time, and the Rogue ship seems superior to everything else in the sky.

Not all support spells are non-reliant on TP, such as Resta and GiResta. Also, what limits most support techniques in PSU is not a character's race, but their job. In the original games, you did not differenciate between a character and their job. In PSU, you do, because characters are designed from the outset to be as "blank slate" as possible to allow players the freedom of choice on how to play their characters.

Both healing techs restore far more health per point of TP than damaging techniques, allowing race/job combinations who would never consider using offensive techniques to function quite adequately as healers. There are even a lot of Casts in those roles. A support-focused Beast WT or AT is absolutely the best example though. They make the most of the class' physical attacks, and still do a good job on the support side... much like the original PS-series catgirl characters did.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2008-05-16 11:19 ]</font>

[Sinue_v2]

So you're saying the research purpose PSU Newmen were engineered for is MORE like soldiering than the purpose Beasts were engineered for? That it makes them the "obvious" fit?

No, and I never did. Neither purpose for either Beasts OR Newmans fits the origins of Numen. And of course, the purpose of this thread is to discuss (and complain about) the changes they have made in Numen/Newmen. Changes just such as this. But honestly, since PSU and PS are not connected by storyline, they really shouldn't HAVE similar origins anyhow. The problem I (and others) have with their origin in PSU is that it reinforces the stereotype that Newmen should be non-melee tech casters.

What about Rika, her purpose - according to you, before it got you between a rock and a hard place - was adaption to life on an increasingly-harsh Mota. Exactly like Beasts. Whoops, eh?

Er, no. The only thing that changed in Rika's purpose was that she was no longer designed to kill humans, and instead to spread her genetic legacy. She is still very much an engineered Biosoldier and very lethal in combat. She is still considered part of the Numan Project - although I couldn't say whether or not she's still a part of the NM-2000 series.

Seriously, what about PSU's Newmen is like Numen AT ALL? You only pointed out the similarities with Dezolians. All I see is pointy ears, and even at that Beasts do a better job thanks to fur.

I still don't see how having the exact same physical form and damned neared the exact same name (which is phonically similar) isn't enough to make a logical conclusion, to say nothing of the game designer's own words. You're basically trying to argue the same point as saying Cait Sith wasn't a Moogle. And you're pretty much the only person who doesn't see it. But aside from that, you could also toss Agility onto the list. It's a bit of a moot point, but PS Numen are described as "lithe and agile", and PSU Newmen have the highest evasion in the game. Then there's also their intelligence and fast development/maturity rate (albiet, much slower than PS Numen it's still faster than humans).

It should be in the PSU script I wrote up. I believe it was Purol who mentioned it.

Also, Rika didn't have fur. The tips of her ears were black, but that doesn't mean they were furry. Even so, her ears are still a far better match to Newman ears than those fish-fins or lamb-chop ears that beasts have. The closest Beasts can come to Numan ears are Leo & Laia's ears, and they are not only an exception, they are not furry either.

If you had any substantial argument on this point you would have used it by now.

And you would have ignored it. Which is why I made the creationist statement.

It's simple: neither of the Numans in the PS games end up seeming terribly smart. In fact the Neis seem downright simple-minded.

It's a matter of opinion vs. fact. In your opinion they don't seem smart. The fact: In the games themselves, and in supplementary data they are said to be highly intelligent.

The Newmen of PSU don't seem to be extremely intelligent either, at least, not above Human standards by the way they act. But that doesn't change the fact that they are the most intelligent race as stated by the PSU development team and source material.

Or maybe the original plan was not thinking about Numen being all that bright... character designers never have moments of fanboy revisionism, like if someone were to go back and make Greedo fire at Han Solo before Han shoots him with a blaster readied under the canteena table.

Probably, maybe, possibly, could be, uncertainty.

It doesn't matter because even were that the case, you and your opinion are not the authoritative word on the matter. They are.

While Beasts are stereotyped as stupid, Laia (mostly) and Leo are pretty sharp when it comes to observiation, judging character, and reasoning things out.

Laia mentions quite often how stupid she is, and how she's more of a fighter than a thinker. Maybe she's just exaggerating, but she still self-concious about it. Leo, perhaps, but again - that's an exception. We're talking about them as a race, not as individuals. And the only reason why Nei/Rika is brought up in the discussion is because they and previous few other individuals (Neifirst, NM-2011, and perhaps Rui) constitute the entire PS Numan race.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sinue_v2 on 2008-05-16 11:23 ]</font>

[panzer_unit]

On 2008-05-16 11:22, Sinue_v2 wrote:

So you're saying the research purpose PSU Newmen were engineered for is MORE like soldiering than the purpose Beasts were engineered for? That it makes them the "obvious" fit?

No, and I never did. Neither purpose for either Beasts OR Newmans fits the origins of Numen.

Beasts however are much closer between the two. As they are for appearance. As they are for overall character balance (superior melee combatants and capable healers/support-casters)

And of course, the purpose of this thread is to discuss (and complain about) the changes they have made in Numen/Newmen.

When instead you could be complaining LESS because there's a decent continuity between Numen/Beasts. But if someone ever chose the "less complaining" option I assume the PSOW server would explode or something.

Er, no. The only thing that changed in Rika's purpose was that she was no longer designed to kill humans, and instead to spread her genetic legacy. She is still very much an engineered Biosoldier and very lethal in combat.

Beasts are designed to work in mines, but they're very lethal in combat too. They weren't INTENDED to be biosoldiers, neither was Rika. They just happen to have all the right genetic makeup for it.

I still don't see how having the exact same physical form and damned neared the exact same name (which is phonically similar) isn't enough to make a logical conclusion, to say nothing of the game designer's own words. You're basically trying to argue the same point as saying Cait Sith wasn't a Moogle. And you're pretty much the only person who doesn't see it. But aside from that, you could also toss Agility onto the list. It's a bit of a moot point, but PS Numen are described as "lithe and agile", and PSU Newmen have the highest evasion in the game.

Also, Rika didn't have fur. The tips of her ears were black, but that doesn't mean they were furry.

Spoilers: Cait Sith is an automaton remote-controlled by a Shinra corp executive for the purpose of spying on Cloud. His deception is revealed mid-story too. Hell no, it's not a moogle. It just looks like a moogle. That character fits the depressing technological disaster theme of FF7 way better than an actual cutesy little marshmallow person would.

We've got a bunch of characters that are made by combining monster DNA with human, who are indirectly related to a race of cats, who are named after cat sounds (meow, nyo, mew), who stereotypically attack with claws ... we're tripping animal references, but obviously we're going to group them with the space elves and bitch about it the whole way because:
* their names are similar to something written up in background stories
* lithe and agile
* intelligent
* furry ears are too ugly

When does the term Numan see use in the PS-series games? I don't remember any instances of it at all. Outside of this thread I've only seen the characters referred to as biomonsters and cat-girls.

Lithe and agile? Intelligent? You'll wreck your racial choice just to get stats that vaguely match two pieces of description fluff, instead of the actual capabilities of the characters you're trying to represent? It doesn't make any sense. Being "lithe and agile" in PSU comes down to choosing a fighter job with lots of light weapons and equipping a bunch of kung-fu backflip PA's. The only race-related "lithe and agile" you're gonna get is... you guessed it... female beast nanoblast. Sassy walk, backflips, claw attacks.

Same with intelligence. All TP does is make Newmen really good at Photon technology, it doesn't say anything about how smart they are. There are a few very smart newmen in the PSU storyline, but humans and casts supply their own share of brainiacs... as do beasts, despite stated stereotypes.

re: ears... what? you must have fun kidding yourself like that. The back of Nei's ears are the same color as her hair. Different-color eartips like Rika has are a common animal coloration. So what if you don't like the PSU graphics for it? It doesn't change the fact that Beast race best represents the capabilities of the Numen characters as they've existed throughout the PS game series.

Laia mentions quite often how stupid she is, and how she's more of a fighter than a thinker. Maybe she's just exaggerating, but she still self-concious about it.

IMO it's because she needs some kind of vulnerable side (besides just being worn out from overwork) to attract sympathy in the ep3 storyline, otherwise she would just be too goddamned competent. Also it's more effective for decision making if you just tell people when they're going over your head. Executives do that a lot.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: panzer_unit on 2008-05-16 13:38 ]</font>