Making a Fortegunner.. weapon questions

[Hrith]

Such an arrogant and unwise post.

Arrogant if you wish, but unwise... not even in your wildest dreams.

There is no better way to play FG as I suggested.

When considering a Fortegunner movility weapon, Crossbow and Twin Handguns are the popular and easy choices, being Machine Gun oversight by most of people. Why? Machine Gun is the weaker option (...)

Machineguns outdamage twin handguns, so get your facts straight to begin with.

Crossbow is significantly more powerful than either, so both machineguns and twin handguns are rendered obsolete by crossbows, for both damage and SE. If you're even more concerned about damage, Yak Zagenga has DPS matching shotguns.

Twin handguns are weaker than rifles, rifles also have more accuracy, a lot more range and a much better SE level.

Crossbow and Twin Handguns are overlapped and redundant in their secondary roles with Shotgun (pointblanking role) and Rifle (FPV and range) respectively.

If you think crossbows and shotguns overlap, you are greatly mistaken, or know too little about playing a gunner. The mobility of crossbows make the weapon closer to other mobile weapons than shotguns.

speaking of making your time worthwhile (and not your palette unnecessarily overlapped with functionality similar weapons) Machine Gun wins.

Machineguns win in what, exactly? Crossbows have more range, more power, more accuracy, better SE, more PP, and will last longer, every gunner knows how fast machineguns empty.

Crossbows win in every department when compared to machineguns.

Finaly we have the melee issue, this is more up to the player, as all Saber, Dagger and Spear make the same role, I consider better suited Saber or Dagger, because they combine with Mechgun or Crossbow

You're forgetting two aspects of melee weapons here, which further prove your lack of experience as a Fortegunner:
-pairing a saber or a dagger with a crossbow or a machinegun means that you will have to use the menu to refill weapons' PP gauges, a huge annoyance and waste of time. I know the Japanese servers have this fixed, but we don't.
-Dus Majarra is plain out more powerful. Hikai Shuha-zan is as powerful as Dus Majarra, but Dus Majarra offers other advantages, such as range, mobility, etc.

I explained why Mechgun is superior

And totally failed at that, since mechgun is inferior in every way.

rather than loading a Spear and having one of your 6 palette slots unnecessarily taken.

If you had read more carefully, I listed six weapon types, so having a spear would not take another weapon's spot on the palette.

Moreover, you rarely have to carry that many weapon types for one mission.
If you take MAG, for instance, grenades are useless, there, so you have only 5 spots taken (I use it to carry another spear).

If you play Desert Goliath, you will not need lasers = another free slot.
If you play Sacred Stream, you need neither grenades nor lasers = two free slots.

And so on...

The six slots of a Fortegunner's palette are rarely taken, which allows you to put several of one weapon type.

not necessarily better than Hikai or Spinning

You think Spinning Strike is a valid PA? Oh god, I think we're reaching the bottom of Fortegunner levels.

I'll just say this to you, Spinning Strike is weaker than Hikai or Majarra against any amount of targets, even one.

aside the aforementioned ugliness from having an empty hand and then a whole extra palette slot with a lone Crossbow and a Spear

Ugliness is subjective, we're not discussing subjectivity, here.
That being said, I'd rather have a "lone crossbow" than have to use the menu to recharge my weapons.

How many Spear skills do you use often and may fulfill different actions? just one, Majarra

Your question is biased in how you are formulating it.
The good question to ask would be "what uses does a Fortegunner have for melee?" To which the answer would be "damage the bullet-resistant critters", and that Dus Majarra does best.
There are a few instances where I'll use Dus Daggas (Adahna Degahna comes to mind).

Of course Rising Strike and Shunbu Shouren-zan can juggle or stagger monsters, and keep some big ones off their feet, but what use is that when I can simply kill them? >_>


Now if your point was to stress that there are other ways to play Fortegunner, fine, I agree with that, everyone plays how they want. But there is no better way.

[xAmrit]

I would have:

2 Rifles (S Ranks)
2 Shotguns (S Ranks)
1 Grenade Launcher (S Rank)
1 Machine Gun w/ Slicer (A Ranks)

[Dakkon]

Arrogant if you wish, but unwise... not even in your wildest dreams.
Machineguns outdamage twin handguns, so get your facts straight to begin with.

+

I explained why Mechgun is superior.

And totally failed at that, since mechgun is inferior in every way.

Please, get your eyes fixed or your thoughts arranged.

Crossbow is significantly more powerful than either, so both machineguns and twin handguns are rendered obsolete by crossbows, for both damage and SE.

Machine Gun DPS is higher than Crossbow excepting Zagenga.

Twin handguns are weaker than rifles, rifles also have more accuracy, a lot more range and a much better SE level.

XD wtf? again with Twin Handguns? I never flattered Twin Handguns in my post, again, check your eyes or short your thoughts.

You're forgetting two aspects of melee weapons here, which further prove your lack of experience as a Fortegunner:
-pairing a saber or a dagger with a crossbow or a machinegun means that you will have to use the menu to refill weapons' PP gauges, a huge annoyance and waste of time. I know the Japanese servers have this fixed, but we don't.

Never ever needed to come back to the lobby for Photon Charges when soloing a S2 or S AoI mission using Machine Gun almost exclusively, plus the idioticy from the kid rant about split Photon Charges... you, the so skilled god, is so hard to do "F2, up arrow, down arrow, down arrow, enter".....
Man... LOL

And so on...

Yes, and so on... I could argue and counter with from logic to proof, every one of your answers to mine, and we could keep this forever, but there is no worse blind one, than the one who doesn't want to see. I won't keep this e-peen contest, so now reply whatever you want, I'm done with you and your short sighted arrogance. gg.

Oh, btw, I'm Fortegunner from the day the advanced classes came out, but, unlike you, I don't need to constantly prove myself.


Kisses.

[amtalx]

I'll agree that Hrith's debating tactics aren't the most diplomatic or humble, but you are way off base with Xbow vs. Machinegun. Xbows have always been more powerful, and that's even ignoring the significantly stronger SE power.

[panzer_unit]

really? about crossbows

Mech skills have higher ATP and ele compared to crossbows, which should at the very least compensate for Crossbow's better ATP on a stronger class like Fortegunner or Fighgunner ... it looks like they can crank out hits at about the same rate, maybe at worst it's 5 mech hits for every 6 crossbow? The crossbow won't all be against the same target either unless you're point-blanking. The flinch rate from mechs is a pretty good defensive effect for small and medium monsters, a mechgun will pretty much incapacitate its target regardless of element you're using.

lol Hrith whenever he comes up with an opinion and yells it at the internet as loud and offensively as he can. His opinion of internet forums is that the only way to do it is shout people down in order to have his own way. IMO even if he's right it's like a monkey picking high-growth stocks or a stopped clock pointing at the correct time, if there's any logic or reason behind any of what he says I have yet to see him use it in order to make people believe the crap he comes up with sometimes.

[biggabertha]

Machine guns can't Just Counter very well. Those first few bullets don't do anything and it's REALLY annoying when you square up against those damned Kakwanes. Crossbow is handy there but I just prefer Shotgunning or Lasering those things because Just counter works in your favour with those weapons.

Annoyingly though, Shotgun doesn't have mobility like the Crossbow or Machine Gun but doesn't run out as quickly as either.

This argument is very much similar to the Melee Vs. Bullet damage argument. Sure, melee on paper, should flat out, out-damage bullets or anything for that matter but those stupid interrruptions (anyone being stomped out of Anga Jabroga juuuust as it's about to hit the ground knows this well) makes bullets waaaaaay better.

Therefore, yes, I'll admit machine guns should be dishing out the best damage (provided you have a Beam Vulcanic at a decent grind) on paper but they run out quickly, you got to be so close to the enemies (seriously, I notice the tiny bit of difference in range between a Lv. 21 Crossbow bolt to a Lv. 31+ bolt and it's colossal in-game) and I often see annoying 0s when using Machine Guns but maybe that's because I'm using a Human, not a Cast.

It's true that Machine guns have less accuracy, less attack and less of an SE level but they make up for it by having the best firing rate. You're also arguing that Machine guns are really awesome when base ATP and base ATA are high to compensate for such a weakness but this holds true for a Crossbow. Crossbows have better stats than Machine guns and are only beaten by firing rate. Since Crossbows outlast Machine guns too...

I haven't counted them out but I think Machine gun fires about three shots a second and empty in about thirty seconds or less? Crossbow shoots about three shots a second too and empty in around ninety seconds? (Using an Aikasoki here compared to a Beam Vulcanic with a Fortegunner and Lv. 40 bullets.)

Well, I should make a video of tackling those five or six Kakwanes at the beginning of White Beast with both the Crossbow and then a Machine Gun so we can have some hard evidence of exactly which is better. Anyone willing to teach me how to compress the Fraps stuff down a tad so I can upload it? Mac native user here... (barely managed to get bootcamp to work and even then, installing PSU was a major hassle...)

The hit box for a Crossbow is awesome for enemies that duck and roll around you. You can safely deal damage to them even if you stop and start. You can even let go of the firing button. You can't change direction so easily with a Machine gun and keep up the consistent damage - the whole point to being a Fortegunner.

Personally, the fact that you can only shoot in a direct line with a mobile weapon is rather annoying since I find that it's usually best to use mobile weapons on mobile enemies. Don't you also find it annoying when enemies run away from you (Vanda Orga and Kakwanes)?



Finally, three meters is a HUUUUUGE difference. That's just under ten feet or about three average steps. Arguably, the distance is a lot shorter in the game since they move so much faster there but when you are that close to an enemy, you don't want to waste even a fraction of a second waiting for the bullets to register themselves.

[amtalx]

Ever since I started this game I've wanted weapon firing rates for EVERY GUN. I know a few, but no one seems to know all of them.

[hyperacute]

Personally, rifle and shotgun are a must. Without these, you may as well pick a different class. If you play a lot of solo as I do, never underestimate level 4 burn on a rifle for sticking s/e on the bigger critters and then running around killing the smaller ones while they burn to death. If you plan on soloing places like Desert Goliath and GoF (and what FG wouldn't given the drops), Killer Shot on the annoying robots is recommended.

Shotgun at 21+ can inflict some nice damage on single critters by point blanking and is great for crowd control at distance.

If you play a lot of the dragon type bosses, grenades are a good way of taking them down fast. Personally, I use Boma Duranga, reflect damage is not to everyone's taste though.

The other weapon I would reccomend is a good spear with Dus Majarra. Try taking on the robot bosses (Adahna Degahna, Magas Maggahna) with one and see how fast they fall.

Lasers I won't comment on, I'm sure they are very good, I personally don't use them (find them too situational).

A good crossbow with 21+ bullets is sort of like a mobile shotgun (3 bullets on 1 target or 1 bullet on 3 targets). Personally I love them. Especially with Yak Zagenga if, like me, you enjoy running around with "close to dead" HP to max the damage. The fact that you can move while shooting makes them pretty darn useful (especially at the moment spamming through MAG) Given they leave a hand free, I team them up with a dagger (refilling from the menu isn't the herculean task some posters make out, even solo) so I can take out the small stuff with the crossbow then barrel into the larger beasts with some melee.

Twin handguns and machineguns I personally find a bit meh (despite having level 40 bullets for some of the PAs). Low s/e and so-so damage output, I tend to include these to fill up palette space. Not really worth focussing on IMO.

Just some opinions, I still maintain use whatever suits your play style.

[Hrith]

(no argument at all)

And here's how people who cannot accept being proven wrong react.

You're just so blatant.

[panzer_unit]

Machine guns can't Just Counter very well.

Therefore, yes, I'll admit machine guns should be dishing out the best damage (provided you have a Beam Vulcanic at a decent grind) on paper but they run out quickly, you got to be so close to the enemies (seriously, I notice the tiny bit of difference in range between a Lv. 21 Crossbow bolt to a Lv. 31+ bolt and it's colossal in-game) and I often see annoying 0s when using Machine Guns but maybe that's because I'm using a Human, not a Cast.
...
It's true that Machine guns have less accuracy, less attack and less of an SE level but they make up for it by having the best firing rate. You're also arguing that Machine guns are really awesome when base ATP and base ATA are high to compensate for such a weakness but this holds true for a Crossbow. Crossbows have better stats than Machine guns and are only beaten by firing rate. Since Crossbows outlast Machine guns too...
...
The hit box for a Crossbow is awesome for enemies that duck and roll around you. ... Personally, the fact that you can only shoot in a direct line with a mobile weapon is rather annoying

JC is a pretty irrelevant complaint about mechs since there's no reason to get into a position where you're being hit, and if things go wrong I'd hardly look at a crossbow for bailing myself out; shotgun blows everything else away in those situations.

The higher %'s on mechgun skills make them a match for crossbows on a hit-for-hit basis even with some pretty modest Fortegunner stats.

1200 base ATP
mechgun: +50 ATP, 170% skill = 2125 total
crossbow: +250 ATP, 155% skill = 2247 total
... so yeah, like a 5% per-hit damage disadvantage for mechguns. Mechguns have 6% more element at that level, which would totally close the gap if it were as simple as +24% total for mech and +18% total for crossbow.

950 base ATA
mechgun: +50 ATA and 87% ATA skill = 870 total
crossbow: +150 ATA and 60% ATA skill = 660 total
... crossbow has a ~30% higher miss rate, like if you miss 10% with a mech it's 13% with a crossbow.

Supposing the rate of fire is actually equal between the two, having a target in range at all with a mechgun is as good as having them constantly at point blank with a crossbow. While your target's stuck spazzing in place (no such thing as 'mobile' enemies once they start taking hits, even those annoying side-roll guys) you're free to use that mobility to dodge around incoming attacks from everything else. It's best if you start hitting an enemy at an angle to the rest of their group and dodge the group's attacks by moving forward/back rather than sidestepping and breaking aim.
Mechs also have an interesting feature that they strafe without having to hold the camera lock key, letting you look around freely while firing. I suppose it might be useful for something but mostly it just looks really cool.

Crossbows are better for PP endurance and SE application, but mechguns don't deserve the bad rap they've gotten for damage output.