Casual use of Over End is bad...

[Astropuyo]

Really OE is a situational line up type PA.

I tend to use it in cases where things have just lined up TOO perfectly not to. Or physical resist enemies. Other than that the old N-N-H attack system works for me.

I don't like the .5 charge time for H attacks.

[ARChan]

Hey, I know something that makes Over End a bad PA.

The tendency of non-boss hostiles (with exception of Heavenly Mother's Grants) is that they focus their attack on the place where PA was used. Yes, that means if you're using Sonic Raid and work past a hostile, they'll run by you and attack where you initialized it. If you're curious about this, use Sonic Raid or Dynamo Spin and get blown up by a freeze trap at the peak of the move before the natural standing animation. The result is that they will attack where you initialized the PA.

Taking this into account with Over End, you're basically stationary. It's a terrible PA when you're trying to be evasive and the such. If you're okay with taking damage, Over End is basically your thing.

[The_Pup]

Actually the purpose of this thread was originally to show that Flozir makes a big difference in damage against single enemies. If you catch other enemies in Over End, multiply attacks by the number of enemies caught in Over End. Practical application would be in ET where there are usually a couple of large enemies spread apart and the attacks per second can be doubled. However, just using Over End by itself against single enemies would be a waste unless it was buffed up.

OE's a specialist thing, in a party I'd use it from the back lines, against 2 large enemies or with Flozir against 3 of the mothers (because they move too much to get a full combo most of the time).

But the interesting thing is how much animation speed saps out damage. All of the PAs with long lasting animations would not be worth it.

Creating a google doc for PA stuffs...

EDIT:

The formula I'm using right now for Compress PA + Flozir reduction is (CT*.5*.66). Though I don't know what mechanics are working under the hood.

Updated data for Over End:

Attacks Per Second (APS)
1.59574468085106

APS with Compress PA
2.17896571760604

APS with Flozir (2-chain)
2.63157894736842

APS with Compress PA + Flozir (2-chain)
3.37685727149932

APS with Flozir (3-chain)
5.26315789473684

APS with Compress PA + Flozir (3-chain)
6.75371454299865

EDIT: Finding inconsistancies in % mods between PSOW and the japanese wiki... I guess I'll have to look through my bank...

[RRyuugu]

Over End has average DPS, in a perfect world.

But PSZ doesn't offer a perfect world. When you enter an area, the mobs are rarely spawned beside the player. In this situation perfect DPS calculations do not apply.

Since you use the charge time as a factor of Over End DPS, don't forget that you can charge Over End while you're not near the mob. What this means is that you can start "attacking" with Over End the moment you enter an area.

Attacking on the other hand only starts DPS calculations when you're near the mob.

This is the same for 2nd, 3rd, and so forth, spawn waves. These enemies will not always spawn near you. Meaning Over End once again has an advantage over normal attacking. It starts "dealing damage" even if you're far away from the enemy.

Another factor is getting hit, Over End allows the player to move away from the mob while "still attacking" again this is because Charge Time is a factor of DPS. On the other hand normal Attack means you're near the mob, putting your player at risk of getting hit and, more importantly, getting "bashed" Bashed means your character stops attacking therefore losing DPS.

With team dynamics Over End provides an even greater benefit. If let's say there are 2 mobs and 2 players, and each player goes for one mob. The first player kills off his mob earlier than the second. Meaning the first player is now doing nothing while the second player is about to kill his mob. The first player can start charging Over End, meaning he's already attacking the second wave of mobs before they even get to spawn. You can't do that with just attacking, at best you can try to predict where the mob will spawn and stand there and swing your weapon at the moment the mobs spawn, good luck predicting that though.

And that single swing you make still doesn't compare to an Over End user ready with his 7.5x Attacks to be unleashed the moment the mob spawns.

Perfect DPS is a very poor way to representing how useful something is in this game. Over End allows for constant DPS while normal attacks have down times when the player is running to the mob, waiting for the mob to spawn, the increased risk of getting bashed by a mob.

[johnwolf]

you'd still have to charge the 2nd an 3rd OE. so yes it is a factor.

[The_Pup]

Over End has average DPS, in a perfect world.

But PSZ doesn't offer a perfect world. When you enter an area, the mobs are rarely spawned beside the player. In this situation perfect DPS calculations do not apply.

Since you use the charge time as a factor of Over End DPS, don't forget that you can charge Over End while you're not near the mob. What this means is that you can start "attacking" with Over End the moment you enter an area.

Attacking on the other hand only starts DPS calculations when you're near the mob.

This is the same for 2nd, 3rd, and so forth, spawn waves. These enemies will not always spawn near you. Meaning Over End once again has an advantage over normal attacking. It starts "dealing damage" even if you're far away from the enemy.

Another factor is getting hit, Over End allows the player to move away from the mob while "still attacking" again this is because Charge Time is a factor of DPS. On the other hand normal Attack means you're near the mob, putting your player at risk of getting hit and, more importantly, getting "bashed" Bashed means your character stops attacking therefore losing DPS.

With team dynamics Over End provides an even greater benefit. If let's say there are 2 mobs and 2 players, and each player goes for one mob. The first player kills off his mob earlier than the second. Meaning the first player is now doing nothing while the second player is about to kill his mob. The first player can start charging Over End, meaning he's already attacking the second wave of mobs before they even get to spawn. You can't do that with just attacking, at best you can try to predict where the mob will spawn and stand there and swing your weapon at the moment the mobs spawn, good luck predicting that though.

And that single swing you make still doesn't compare to an Over End user ready with his 7.5x Attacks to be unleashed the moment the mob spawns.

Perfect DPS is a very poor way to representing how useful something is in this game. Over End allows for constant DPS while normal attacks have down times when the player is running to the mob, waiting for the mob to spawn, the increased risk of getting bashed by a mob.

I do that. And I do see where you're coming from.

However we see precharge as two different things:

1) Your precharge (see precharge formula below): You enter a room with enemies (no spawn, they are just there) and with full PA (no charge, you have it already). You may unleash the PA on the enemy instantly. There will be a notable APS increase.
2) My precharge (see normal formula below): I consider enemies that haven't spawned yet to already be on the map. This means that the precharge would be considered charge time. No notable APS increase.

(Ignore getting to the enemy and assume the enemy is already in range for the PA in both instances.)

If you want to use (1) in calculations, remove charge time calculations from formula to account for the first PA use (that would leave the animation time being the divisor). Then add that to normal formula calculation with charge times and divide by 2 to get the average APS.

For the sake of simplicity, I use (2) as I would only need to work with one equation instead of two.

========
--------
Forumulas
--------

Attack = 1 (one normal attack)
AttackModifiers includes PA attack % (ie: *2.5 for Over End) and Criticals (*2)
Hits is how many times a PA strikes (ie: 3 for Over End)
ChargeTime is charge time for that PA
ChargeModifiers are Flozir 2-chain (*0.5) and Compress PA (*0.66)
AnimationTime is how long the PAs attack animation runs.

Normal Formula:

APS = (Attack*AttackModifiers*Hits)/((ChargeTime*ChargeModifiers)+AnimationTime)

Precharge Formula:

a = (Attack*AttackModifiers*Hits)/(AnimationTime)
b = (Attack*AttackModifiers*Hits)/((ChargeTime*ChargeModifiers)+AnimationTime)
APS = (a+b)/2
APS = ((Attack*AttackModifiers*Hits)/(AnimationTime)+(Attack*AttackModifiers*Hits)/((ChargeTime*ChargeModifiers)+AnimationTime))/2

[RRyuugu]

You're still failing to account for

1. Travel Time
2. Getting Bashed
3. Charging during the slight time that takes for the next wave of mobs to spawn

Your calculations assume that the player will be immediately at the point where the mobs will spawn. This is a perfect world situation. Not an actual in-game situation which can be replicated constantly.

One of the main advantages of using PAs is that you can start charging even if you are not in range. This is a situation that happens a lot in the game. Ignoring this means you are not anymore talking about the actual game play. Making all your DPS formulas simply theoretical and not actual.

There's an article somewhere on the web regarding Theoretical and Actual DPS I suggest you Google it, it's probably buried in WoW Forum.

you'd still have to charge the 2nd an 3rd OE. so yes it is a factor.

Not always.

Consider how mobs spawn. Over End can used to instantly kill the nearest mob before the rest have a chance to crowd in on you. So while the rest of the mobs are still closing in on you, and you haven't reached the next one you're in "down time" Down time is a duration when you cannot attack anything and hit it. Meaning you have no DPS during down time. However Charge Time will "deal" DPS during this down time. Charging while you're running to the next mob means you're already "attacking" them.

Also mobs will not always spawn in the same spot, or even if they do, the actual place where you're killing mobs isn't the same (seeing as they've moved towards your character, so the point where you engage the mob group is farther from the original spawn point) There's no guarantee that the next mob group will spawn where you are.

This causes another "down time"

And finally the delay for spawning the next mob group is another "down time"

PAs have almost no down time because you're either charging the PA or using it. The only real down time for PA's is when the PA is fully charged and no enemy is in range. Normal/Heavy Melee Attacks on the other hand have a lot of down time composed of running to mobs and waiting for them to spawn. Not to mention dodging certain boss attacks.

[The_Pup]

You're still failing to account for

1. Travel Time
2. Getting Bashed
3. Charging during the slight time that takes for the next wave of mobs to spawn

Your calculations assume that the player will be immediately at the point where the mobs will spawn. This is a perfect world situation. Not an actual in-game situation which can be replicated constantly

Exactly. Which means they don't figure into calculations. However this is not about efficiency. This is about versus a lone enemy. The guide can be changed to affecting multiple enemies by multiplying the APS by how many enemies (targetable sections of bosses count as 1 enemy) were hit.

All calculations include things that are constant (PA stats, charge times, animation time) to give a constant (attacks per second versus 1 enemy). The guide does not include missing, or random criticals. It assumes the character in question has enough ATA to hit everything at or near 100% and will either be doing no criticals or 100% criticals, both of which are possible.

On 1: This would be considered in the precharge post. Also a variable that cannot be measured. Moving into position while charging can also be considered. The rule of thumb here is: If the player charges up and is in a position to hit the enemy by the time the PA is fully charged then travel time doesn't really matter much since it's just like charging up next to the enemy.
On 2: Would lower the APS. However, if a player moves while charging, has invincibility or has enough HP to not flinch then this is moot.
On 3: Was explained in my post before this.

[RRyuugu]

The topic title is misleading then. I really don't see how the first post and the title "Casual use of Over End is bad" mix together if you weren't talking about efficiency.

It's just about how Over End has average DPS in an extremely rare situation in the game. Which again has nothing to do with spamming Over End is "bad"

You can't even say something is "bad" when you clearly ignore actual in-game situations and create an extremely unreasonable one. While situation 1 cannot be accurately measured it is an integral part of the game that happens often. More than that it is by far one of the biggest advantages of using PAs. The same applies for 3.

As for 2 it is not moot. Normal Attacking places the player in range of the mob for an extended amount of time. Charging removes a major part of this risk by allowing the player to "attack" the mob while staying away from it, only closing in when the PA is fully charged.

You mentioned large enemies in an earlier post, which if we consider the actual enemies you're referring to are points against how "Casual use Over End is bad"

The Arkzein has an attack that can end up with it moving past your character which it will use if you're at melee range. This will cause "down time" Normal and Heavy Attacks. Hilde's have a charging attack which they use at any range, again if the Hilde runs past your character this is down time for Normal and Heavy Attacks. Roh's have the bouncing/rolling attack which is shown to be used really early after they spawn. Again more down time for Normal and Havy Attacks. Phobos's will jump away if you get close to them, the range they jump back is far enough to put them out of range for Swords. Again down time.

Over End only requires that the character be in range for a short window of time, Normal and Heavy Attacks (especially) require that character be in range the entire time.

[The_Pup]

On the downtime edit: Over End has downtime. It deals less APS than normal/hard sword attacks. This ends when the player is using at least Flozir 2-chain.

The topic title is misleading then. I really don't see how the first post and the title "Casual use of Over End is bad" mix together if you weren't talking about efficiency.

It's just about how Over End has average DPS in an extremely rare situation in the game. Which again has nothing to do with spamming Over End is "bad"

You can't even say something is "bad" when you clearly ignore actual in-game situations and create an extremely unreasonable one. While situation 1 cannot be accurately measured it is an integral part of the game that happens often. More than that it is by far one of the biggest advantages of using PAs. The same applies for 3.

As for 2 it is not moot. Normal Attacking places the player in range of the mob for an extended amount of time. Charging removes a major part of this risk by allowing the player to "attack" the mob while staying away from it, only closing in when the PA is fully charged.

This is assuming the player is PA spamming single enemies. PA spamming 2 enemies is just marginally better than normal attacking three times. Over End is weaker than Normal/Hard combos. Even against a tightly-packed group. The only thing that would make it better would be the accuracy mod and extended range.

2 is moot. You're even explaining why it is moot. As an added bonus: You don't need to get out of PA range to not take damage!