Fire EX traps - bug fix?

[SolomonGrundy]

OK, so the fire tics every two seconds, not every one - does that really alter what I am looing for?

Damage can be ticked as often as the devs want, in .5 second increments or not. I am fine with the burn ticking every two seconds (as my comparison shows, I am not looking for any CHANGE to burn rate, only the damge tic rate to be SLOWER.

Are people deliberately being dense?

There is a single issue, and that is that the damage tics, and the burn ticks exactly coincide. Since the damage tic seems to reset the burn counter, the burn damage is never applied.

changing the timing seems the easiest way to fix this. Simply eliminating the issue would also work FINE for me.

[Darki]

Breaks in interaction and measures of power are by comparison. Anga Jabroga is not a standard for comparison. To "kick the crap out of everything else" is not the intent or balanced.

Is not Anga Jabroken the only issue. Please, tell me at least one melee weapon that hasn't at least one skill that can kicl the crap out of a decent mob in the time an EX trap works. If we're talking about damage, you can do better work with even a single claw or a whip than with an EX trap in many situations.

There's ONE and only problem, and this problem is the base of bassically all balance problems in this game:

We have 3 EX traps. One of them is underpowered compared to the other two. That needs a fix.

THE END. I dunno why people tries to see it more difficult. If balance problems arent solved they start getting all together and we end like we're now: having classes that almost no-one plays because any other class would do a better job, for example.

There can be hundreds of possiblities to adjust EX traps, but the way I see it is that we have two traps for disabling and one for damaging. Protranser is the trap user, and you can carry only up to 10 fire traps, don't you see something wrong there?

I see alright PTs being able to kill with traps, even more knowing there are only 10 of them.

Now, on the matter, I don't know if slowing down them would work... that would give room for more efectiveness, in my oppinion, for EX traps. I mean, if they did the same number of hits but hit every 2 secs instead of 1, we would come with a double-lasting frozen effect, giving more time to kill monsters. But if we low the number of hits, the efectivity of them would go down. It's a difficult problem to solve.

[Powder Keg]

The damage tic rate being slower would just allow the enemies to spread apart even farther. We're trying to explain to you that any way you alter this would just make it more broken or worse overall and not worth using. You're better off just using a burn trap S if you want that.

[The_Brimada]

Just my two cents, if they just let you attack while the trap is going off then there would be no need to "fix" fire or any ex traps. However, that'd be pretty broken and everyone would probably only play PT if that were the case >_>

[darthplagis]

allowing attacks while traps are set would be nice, but what about when you set 2 traps down and want to trigger them separatly?

maybe you just loose the untriggered like you normally would? hmm that may work actually :P

[Zoamel_Gustav]

OK, so the fire tics every two seconds, not every one - does that really alter what I am looing for?

Is a margin of 200% significant to balance?

Damage can be ticked as often as the devs want, in .5 second increments or not.

I do not think Burn, Virus, Poision, Giresta, traps or anything similar uses .5 second increments.

I am fine with the burn ticking every two seconds (as my comparison shows, I am not looking for any CHANGE to burn rate, only the damge tic rate to be SLOWER.

The damage tick would have to be longer then two seconds. If it had to be made slow, I would realistically think three second intervals, but even 2.5 is a noticeable change.

Are people deliberately being dense?

There's ONE and only problem, and this problem is the base of bassically all balance problems in this game:
We have 3 EX traps. One of them is underpowered compared to the other two. That needs a fix.
THE END. I dunno why people tries to see it more difficult.

The problems are almost never isolated. Balance is complicated, thus there is difficultly.

There is a single issue, and that is that the damage tics, and the burn ticks exactly coincide. Since the damage tic seems to reset the burn counter, the burn damage is never applied.

They do not exactly coincide. The trap is twice as fast. It ticks a whole second before the burn does. This preemptive renewal is the reason the burn damage is not applied.

changing the timing seems the easiest way to fix this. Simply eliminating the issue would also work FINE for me.

Now, on the matter, I don't know if slowing down them would work... that would give room for more efectiveness, in my oppinion, for EX traps. I mean, if they did the same number of hits but hit every 2 secs instead of 1, we would come with a double-lasting frozen effect, giving more time to kill monsters. But if we low the number of hits, the efectivity of them would go down.

The problems are complex. In my opinion, I would rather not slow down EX traps because of how creatures react. I'm considering the startup speeds of rushes, jumps, warps, or spins for example.

Is not Anga Jabroken the only issue.

I did not mention that Anga Jabroken is an issue. What I said was that Anga Jabroken was not any standard for measurement, by which to be compared.

Please, tell me at least one melee weapon that hasn't at least one skill that can kicl the crap out of a decent mob in the time an EX trap works. If we're talking about damage, you can do better work with even a single claw or a whip than with an EX trap in many situations.

EX traps are not melee weapons. Their intended roles are different.

Damage is not the only criteria for balance. Versatility is an important aspect to balance. To "kick the crap out of everything else" is too much of both. There are high damage abilities with low versatility. There are low damage abilities with high versatility. There are many other factors that can be adjusted for balance as well. The point is, advantages should be balanced with disadvantages.

If balance problems arent solved they start getting all together and we end like we're now: having classes that almost no-one plays because any other class would do a better job, for example.

I agree. But that doesn't make the problems any less complex or difficult.

There can be hundreds of possiblities to adjust EX traps, but the way I see it is that we have two traps for disabling and one for damaging. Protranser is the trap user, and you can carry only up to 10 fire traps, don't you see something wrong there?

I see alright PTs being able to kill with traps, even more knowing there are only 10 of them.

Damage over time status effects are support damage, not primary damage.

It's a difficult problem to solve.

I agree. The problems are difficult.

I'll contribute an idea that may isolate some variables.

==GUARDIANS advanced style==

Burn Crusher Trap EX:
Burned enemies will take an additional X% damage from trap EXs.

Freeze Crusher Trap EX:
Frozen enemies will take an additional Y% damage from trap EXs.

Stun Crusher Trap EX:
Stunned enemies will take an additional Z% damage from trap EXs.

[SolomonGrundy]

==GUARDIANS advanced style==

Burn Crusher Trap EX:
Burned enemies will take an additional X% damage from trap EXs.

Freeze Crusher Trap EX:
Frozen enemies will take an additional Y% damage from trap EXs.

Stun Crusher Trap EX:
Stunned enemies will take an additional Z% damage from trap EXs.

uh, not uless +x% damage were unfairly large There is already 33% more damage for ALL traps. Why make PTs spend AEXP points (which are limited).

IMO, the freeze and Stun traps live up to your expectation of them. Stun and Freeze immobilize and do some damage. Fire EX does not immobilize, and thus has lower versatility - so by your own analysis:

There are high damage abilities with low versatility. There are low damage abilities with high versatility. There are many other factors that can be adjusted for balance as well. The point is, advantages should be balanced with disadvantages.

Seems like more damage in a shorter amount of time is the best way correct this. I think allowing PTs to attack during EX traps would be great, but ultimately too strong, and not fitting the intended role. (though I did love playing Andriods in PSO for confuse and freeze traps - damage traps sucked in SPO too)

[Zoamel_Gustav]

not uless +x% damage were unfairly large There is already 33% more damage for ALL traps. Why make PTs spend AEXP points (which are limited).

X, Y, and Z are intentionally left as variables. Isolated variables are adjustable. I didn't judge what costs or statistics were fair. Substitute whatever costs and statistics will be fair. X, Y, and Z could be any fair number, if they are fair. For that matter, the abilities could cost zero AP, if that is a fair cost.

What is more relevant is a working methodology, rather then an opinionated judgment. I contributed an idea that does not alter how Burn works or how EX traps work. It could be further specified depending on the working limits of GUARDIANS advanced style. I'm not the one placing the focus on only the aspect of damage. My contribution follows a philosophy suggested by abilities such as Sleep Crusher.

IMO, the freeze and Stun traps live up to your expectation of them. Stun and Freeze immobilize and do some damage. Fire EX does not immobilize, and thus has lower versatility - so by your own analysis:

Burn Trap EXs do damage over time. Freeze and Stun do not do damage over time. Burn Trap EXs have higher damage and have less versatility then Freeze and Stun Trap EXs. Each status effect is different. Freeze and Stun are also different from each other. X, Y, and Z are isolated from each other.

My expectations of Burn Trap EXs are to act like EX traps in addition to providing, in this case, the support of damage over time. My expectations of any item are to not be overpowered. My expectations of Burn Trap EXs would not be to combine the versatility of EX traps mechanics with unfairly large damage unfettered of any statistic based scaling opposition. Such a combination would be overpowered.

Seems like more damage in a shorter amount of time is the best way correct this.

If Burn Trap EX should do even more damage compared to other trap EXs, then have X > Y and X > Z.

[SolomonGrundy]

why not just fix the issue? You do agree it is strange that the burn status keeps getting recent, disallowing the DOT damage from registering?

[Zoamel_Gustav]

You do agree it is strange that the burn status keeps getting recent, disallowing the DOT damage from registering?

It is not strange that the burn status keeps getting reset. Status effect reapplication is not a bug. It is not strange that damage over time effects can be postponed by repeated reapplication. Damage over time intervals are not a bug. At a buff party, repeatedly casting megistar will postpone the first tick of damage and reset the duration. This is part of how status effects work. Trap EXs hit and reapply repeatedly. That is part of how traps work. Together, this is how traps and status effects interact.

why not just fix the issue?

What is the issue exactly? Everything is connected, by degrees of separation, to everything else. If the issue is not identified and disentangled from it's workings, then everything else will be changed as well. The issue is not how Burns work. The issue is not how Trap EXs work. If the issue is that you want Burn Trap EXs to cause more damage, then how is the matter not addressed by something like this:

==GUARDIANS advanced style==
Burn Crusher Trap EX':
Burned enemies will take an additional X% damage from Burn Trap EXs.
Cost is zero AP. Chosen by default. X is the extra damage you wanted done scaled as a percentage.