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  1. #21
    Kagajibaris are Dezorians Omega-z's Avatar
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    @Zorafim - It's true that the names are different but so is Noah (PSI) to Lutz (PSII & PSIV) and there the same person, So its the same. Wren's name may not of been able to fit into the spacing for the JP version of PSIII at the time or it was a goof up (since he introduces himself as 386 and not Sierren in the JP version) and JP ran with the name Sierren until they could change it, They did add the early art work for PSIII of the name Sierren before the changed it in a PSO hunter guide book too (there was an earlier idea Sega had before PSO's story was created was to have Wren/Sierren with Alisa III in PSO, but it didn't work out). Also the PSIII EN version, PSIV JP version (Forren = Wren), PSIV EN version has it as Wren, Then you have The remake with "Type 386". Also there was (same time as the Spec's) PSIII comics with the name Forren and not Sierren. Also you have in-game links to them being the same.

    It's up to you if you believe it or not.
    Last edited by Omega-z; Mar 1, 2014 at 08:00 PM.

  2. #22

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    According to Toyo Ozaki, Searren was created after the war between Orakians and Layans, that is, around the same time PSIV takes place, when Forren was almost a thousand years old. According to Siren, Searren was modelled after him.

    Forren was created, on Motavia, after the destruction of Palma, to manage Nurvus that was created to control the climate after Mother Brain was destroyed.

  3. #23
    Curiously attractive for a fish man Zorafim's Avatar
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    Huh. I thought Searren and Forren were around the same age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega-z View Post
    @Zorafim - It's true that the names are different but so is Noah (PSI) to Lutz (PSII & PSIV) and there the same person, So its the same.
    That's... not quite how it works. When a game is made in japan, and brought to America, a team translates the game to best appeal to the american crowd. When sequels come out, the same team might not work on different games, so you get inconsistencies. The names of characters are different in the games because they were translated differently. I'm fairly certain the same characters had consistent names throughout the games in japan.
    Last edited by Zorafim; Mar 2, 2014 at 12:25 PM.

  4. #24
    Kagajibaris are Dezorians Omega-z's Avatar
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    @landman - the only way I could see it happening would be Orakio building him at the end of the war some time before the cease fire and before the fight with falz. but that might go against whats in the games story. But in a sense it could work being after the War if it was close enough to the cease fire or Laws. Then making Toyo Ozaki statement sound.

    Oh, Also Wren states it himself that he was found in the rubble of the fallen world-ship that crash on Movtia after it had been orbiting the planet for awhile. Which Wren was heavily-damaged during the accident. Which the Movtains with their little knowledge repaired him as the best they could, reason why his abilities are different. This was around 500 - 600 years before 2284 in PSIV. Which can be linked with the generations of PSIII.

    @Zorafim - their the same age since their the same person. Orakio built Miun after.....spoiler......and Siren after himself and they where the first 386 version type of Casts, then Orakio with the help of Siren & Miun built many more Cast clones of themselves or drones for the War. But Wren/Searren was built by Orakio for a different purpose using the same 386 version type as Siren, reason why they looked the same but Wren was way more advance then Siren.


    Cast History lesson:

    The First known Casts by AW dates in the Classics by order is Lars/Dalos -> Lalia -> Miun & Siren with clones -> Wren/Searren/Shirren -> Mieu -> Demi/Freyna.
    Last edited by Omega-z; Mar 3, 2014 at 02:31 AM.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega-z View Post
    Oh, Also Wren states it himself that he was found in the rubble of the fallen world-ship that crash on Movtia after it had been orbiting the planet for awhile. Which Wren was heavily-damaged during the accident. Which the Movtains with their little knowledge repaired him as the best they could, reason why his abilities are different. This was around 500 - 600 years before 2284 in PSIV. Which can be linked with the generations of PSIII.
    Where does Wren (and which one) state that?

    And how do you link the period between PS2 and 4, in which one most world-ships landed on Motabia and Dezolis (source), to PS3, that happened 1000 years after PS4 in the world-ships that left the system? It's also fair to assume that at the point of the Orakian-Layan war they still got the technology to build androids, just like Parmanians had in Motabia/Dezolis before the Great Collapse. Alisa 3 provably had it's own Great Collapse, but after the Orakian-Layan war, and a thousand years later some domes of the world-ship have returned to Medieval civilization.

  6. #26
    Kagajibaris are Dezorians Omega-z's Avatar
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    @landman - It's mostly stated by Wren in PSIV about the orbiting World-ship for XX amount of years and his service record with the Motavians for XXX amount of years. The found in the rubble part is a little bit indirect since he use's the word Technology instead. But that is also a keyword which includes him. Since the Motavian's referred him as Tech and not a Cast or a Race, This is also in his Bio in-game description. So in PSIV when Wren says he's close to 1000 years then that's correct.

    The Motavians didn't have the tech at all, there are many reasons to this. 1.) There is no way Wren could look the same as Orakio or off Siren if he was made by the Motavians since Siren was Built directly only for the Orakian-Layan war which was only on Alisa III. 2.) The Palmanians didn't have the tech either other then Hapsby type bot's and not Cast type's, This is thanks to Ken Miller and the wisdom he gained by knowing the greed and evilness of the MB & Gov. . 3.) Wren was the only one.......for how long and Motavians didn't make any more or the couldn't at least not from scratch. 4.) Wren built Demi and not the Motavians. 5.) Wren was the only one in Algo to have the knowledge to build others like him self. 6.) Wren having intimate knowledge of Alisa III and events. 7.) Wren having the same ability as Mieu at the end to save everyone thank to the "Power Enhancer". 8.) The world-ships took time to build and not enough time to evacuate the people which drawn attention way from MB to even think of Casts "IF" she had that knowledge. 9.) There are no casts in PSII or others in PSIV. 10.) Wrens description says he's a remnant of a lost civilization, The Palmanians (which moved to Motavia your source ships) & Motavians are not "Lost" they survived. .......etc.

    Also the 1k & 2k theory's are incorrect to the other in-game dates in PSIII and the dates of PSII and PSIV. Also the difference between the JP & EN version's detail's of those years and the goof up that one of the designers/programmer said happen to the JP version which wasn't completely fix'd. This mistake alone has made PSIII not connect to the others in the time line and needs to be fix'd.

    Oh, I do know about the other ships. But this ship is much later and also one other that had crashed on Dezolis later that had Falz on it which the Grand Archbishop of the Dezolisians held him in check with his mental ability until Chaz Ashley and crew came. which both have dates when they crashed.

    Edit: I view the PS franchise's stories like different sides of a rubrics cube that are mixed up. Very complex even tho it's simple looking.
    Last edited by Omega-z; Mar 3, 2014 at 07:49 PM.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega-z View Post
    @landman - It's mostly stated by Wren in PSIV about the orbiting World-ship for XX amount of years and his service record with the Motavians for XXX amount of years. The found in the rubble part is a little bit indirect since he use's the word Technology instead.
    Can you elaborate where in the game he says that? because I don't remember anything like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega-z View Post
    But that is also a keyword which includes him. Since the Motavian's referred him as Tech and not a Cast or a Race, This is also in his Bio in-game description.
    In the "bio" I can only see race (android) and age ( 998 ) other than stats. In the manual there is not much more, and in the Japanese manual there are a few more lines but I don't understand Japanese.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega-z View Post
    The Motavians didn't have the tech at all, there are many reasons to this.
    In PS1 there exist technology to build robots, in PS2 there are plenty of robots, controlled by mother brain, yes, but Parum was a highly advanced planet, with great knowledge and culture, Mother Brain adapted Motavia and planed the destruction of Parum because they actually feared the Parmans. Either if it is Parman or Mother Brain technology, the Goverment on Motavia did not collapse in a couple of years, they had BOTH technology available, they had labs, they had facilities, in fact a large number of facilities (and some super computers) are active a thousand years later, after PS2 I'm sure there were plenty of scientists/engineers to use those facilities (two of them were in your party).

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega-z View Post
    1.) There is no way Wren could look the same as Orakio or off Siren if he was made by the Motavians since Siren was Built directly only for the Orakian-Layan war which was only on Alisa III.
    Siren was a model with higher software parameters, compare it to a Terminator, the T-800 that is only the mechanical part and a big gun is only programmed to battle, the one with a flesh camouflage has a higher programming for infiltration, and the one John Connor sends to protect himself in the past has a learning program which means is more close to a true AI, unlike the ones controlled by Skynet. I don't think the facilities full of "wren-type" you find in PS4 were build after PS2, those facilities made those models, for whatever purpose, and those models were on Parman ship-worlds, as well as Motabia and Dezoris. Also, if we take the artworks as an example, Searren is actually not very tall, while Forren is extremely tall (this is also stated in the game by Rika when they meet for the first time)

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega-z View Post
    2.) The Palmanians didn't have the tech either other then Hapsby type bot's and not Cast type's, This is thanks to Ken Miller and the wisdom he gained by knowing the greed and evilness of the MB & Gov. .
    Before the Earthmen arrived, Parmanians had: hyperspace travel, hibernated suspension, and at least 700 years experience in robotics. Forren is not very human like when it comes to expression, Freia is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega-z View Post
    3.) Wren was the only one.......for how long and Motavians didn't make any more or the couldn't at least not from scratch.
    Forren had a purpose: to manage Nurvus on Zelan, because Mother Brain was no longer there to control Climatrol. If a civilization that has been controlled by and AI for some centuries starts making plenty of AIs again, they have a problem!

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega-z View Post
    5.) Wren was the only one in Algo to have the knowledge to build others like him self.
    After the great collapse, maybe. SEED was an AI itself, he could have programmed a robot and make another Android, but his objective was to create life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega-z View Post
    6.) Wren having intimate knowledge of Alisa III and events.
    I don't know what knowledge you are talking about, could it be knowledge about Falz? knouledge that Lutz/the Espers had for two thousand years? Lutz was hiding from Mother Brain, not from the Governor-General of Motabia, I don't see why he would not support the building of Nurvus and the Android that will take care of it, for thousands of years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega-z View Post
    7.) Wren having the same ability as Mieu at the end to save everyone thank to the "Power Enhancer".
    Healing abilities does not equal to Magic or Photon Sensitive Techniks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega-z View Post
    8.) The world-ships took time to build and not enough time to evacuate the people which drawn attention way from MB to even think of Casts "IF" she had that knowledge. 9.) There are no casts in PSII or others in PSIV.
    Every definition of CAST is different in each game, Wren is an android, and as I see it is nothing more than a machine with better software. PSO Casts are a step further in MAG technology, and that was build with D-cells, but other than that they have machine abilities: they don't have Photon Sensitivity, they can have their memory wiped out and they can live for centuries (according to PSZ). PSU Casts have some artificial organic parts, they get old and degraded in time (Lucaim Nav), and PSO2 Casts are Photon Sensitive but there is not much explanation or information, other than being created by some lab in the fleet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega-z View Post
    10.) Wrens description says he's a remnant of a lost civilization, The Palmanians (which moved to Motavia your source ships) & Motavians are not "Lost" they survived. .......etc.
    A civilization is not defined by a race, a civilization evolves and changes to another, some times more socially or technologically advanced (ancient Greek democratic states), sometimes the opposite (Medieval Kingdoms). That last is exactly what happened at the Great Collapse, and in the Alisa 3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega-z View Post
    Also the 1k & 2k theory's are incorrect to the other in-game dates in PSIII and the dates of PSII and PSIV. Also the difference between the JP & EN version's detail's of those years and the goof up that one of the designers/programmer said happen to the JP version which wasn't completely fix'd. This mistake alone has made PSIII not connect to the others in the time line and needs to be fix'd.
    It it really is a "typo" they had plenty of times to fix it, one for the Saturn port, another for the PS2 port (it's not emulation, they actually added a run button), and I'm sure it is far easy to fix something that's in the intro code than something that is lost in some text further in the game, specially if they believe it was wrong.

  8. #28
    Kagajibaris are Dezorians Omega-z's Avatar
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    @landman - I had a wacky thought that could be a solution to our debate, Also could even establish a link to your possibly.

    What if Both versions were built around the same time in two places but then came together, so be separate and the same at the same time.

    How this would work is Ken Miller being the teacher to Orikio and manage to make blue prints but never got the chance to built them due to the end of the planet. They used Orikio as a template for Siren/Searren (PSIII) and (Wren PSIV), They used Laila as a Template for Miun and Mieu.

    Now Orikio went on Alisa III (originally heading to Capto) which Ken gave the power stone to him before he left. Now Ken went onto another world-ship that was bound to Motavia (your connection).

    Orikio on Alisa III in the late years of the war built Searren as his Legacy and gave the power stone to him. Later Searren finding Mieu with a bad power cell modified it by using the power stone to power her systems.

    On Motavia Ken 40 years earlier to Orikio's building of Searren, Had started building Wren in response to the crisis but didn't get to finish due to the Gov. Plans to use a Daughter form of MB instead which they needed him for. Over the years the Gov. move to the Bio/Neuman project and forgotten about the uncompleted Cast.

    Opportunity happened that after a Orbiting world-ship fell to the ground that had been there for 27 years crashed, which the Gov. searched for any technology that remained. After the failed attempts the Gov. had and coming across Casts similar to the one they had. They picked up parts from the ruins that they needed to finish Wren a modified Power cell (Mieu's) and a piece of a similar Neronet from a Cast that looked the same (Searren).

    After adding the parts Wren was given orders to maintain the climate control systems on Zelan and end the crisis. which he continued in his duties for 674 years before Chaz and Crew. In AW 1960, he constructed a second android, Demi.




    What do you think about this? It can fit both scenarios.

    Oh, some fun

    Rika : Wow your so "BIG" Wren.

    Wren : "BIG" you should check out my gun.

    Rika : It's really long.

    Wren : That's right the bigger the better.

    lol
    Last edited by Omega-z; Mar 6, 2014 at 02:02 PM.

  9. #29

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    I liked your third scenario (Big gun) better lol

    May I add to the "discussion", that according to the Japanese games, Siren and Searren are called Robots, while Mieu, Forren and Freya are called Androids? While in our dictionaries this only means an Android is a robot that looks like a human (and I'm not sure if Asimov ever used the word Android for a Robot), I don't know what that would mean in the games, but my idea that Siren is just a software enhanced red haired 386 model programmed to command the Orakian army of 386 troops does not seem very far-fetched, and Searren is just a similar model that can morph into a lot of things. And that army was provably in th Alissa III since Parum.

  10. #30
    Kagajibaris are Dezorians Omega-z's Avatar
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    @landman - I can see that, like you said that Siren & Searren can Transform/Mechanical being more Robotic. The thing that gets me is why Forren isn't with the other two since he semi - Transforming weapons also Lars since he can transform into a pink hotrod car. The only thing I can think of is the parts I talked about for Forren. But focus on the modified Power cell (it used to be Mieu's which was an Android then by that description it also help him preform the same response as Mieu did in PSIII. ). Then what truly separates Robots to Androids even tho there still Casts ...etc. The only thing I can think of is Having a Heart/ Love or being able to. So, Siren & Searren had knowledge and did there duties but that didn't give them the ability to Love. Where Lars, Lalia, Miun, Mieu, Demi/Freya could with Forren being able to learn too through Mieu's Cell/Heart with the powerstone in it even tho he was socially empt because of no interaction with people.

    Oh, Wren and Demi would of had two ages. There built ages and there activation ages. There built ages for Wren is 998 and for Demi is 324. Then you have the activation ages, This is like being in cryogenic sleep. Wren mentioned that when he was on Zelan he would do Maintenance on it every so often then turn himself off or sleep mode, also being in-active before Movtavian had gotten the parts. This would be the same for Demi since she followed his orders. I believe it was once every two weeks. If thats the case 1 yr would be 28 days for them and 13 yrs to their 1 yr.. This would put Wren between 51~52 active yrs old. and Demi around 24~25 active yrs old since I'm unsure if she turn off & on when she was captured or stayed on completely. We also know thanks to PSU that the active years are what makes the Casts get old and have problems. The maximum age limit for active Casts is 150~180 yrs. but can exceed that with Sleep mode to protect themselves from wear and tear.

    Edit: Also sorry for the delay.
    Last edited by Omega-z; Mar 6, 2014 at 01:57 PM.

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