Fighter Discussion

[Dephinix]

BHS is 40pp. Let's say you already have TAJA going with pp save, Flicker and BHS become 12pp and 30pp, so it comes out to 42pp(It actually costs more). That's fine and dandy, but you're doing slightly more damage for a bit more pp, and more frames being used to do so. BHS is 48 frames at gear 3, adding flicker jab is another 40 frames, so at the end of the day, all you're doing is conserving pp to do roughly the same amount of damage.. over a longer period of time. That doesn't make sense to me, and even having to switch to orbit or spam normals, BHS spam always wins againt Flicker Jab > BHS for my runs. Especially if you have Astra Knucks, or a bouncer with PP field. I'm honestly starting to think TAJA is a waste of points except for Double Sabers.

It's a lot to look at, but all you need to see if Fury Combo 10 BHS Spam 48F and Flicker Jab > BHS 88F.

http://4rt.info/psod/?gh0PK

BHS spam for my stuff I added here does 267k per strike on target.
TAJA Flick > BHS does 456k per combo on same target, same affixes and gear.

That means if you calculate by frame, BHS spam does 5562 damage per frame. A crappy way of saying it, but it made the math easy.
TAJA Flick > BHS would be hitting 5181 damage per frame in a back to back combo.

[nguuuquaaa]

You need to factor in the amount of normal attack to recover PP, as it reduces effective DPS.
For example:
BHS > normal attack 2 is 1628 power in 74f, which translates to 1320 DPS
Flicker (TAJA) > BHS (TAJA) > normal attack 3 is 2693 power in 112f, which translates to 1442 DPS

Well, in reality people wouldn't BHS > normal attack 2 but BHS spam then sway > normal attack 1 to recover PP, but you get the point.

[Dephinix]

I did that in a separate notepad. 3 normal attacks with a BHS is 118F, if you wanted to go that route to regenerate pp. Under limit break all 3 attacks is enough to do another BHS or Flicker > BHS. That's my main point though, BHS is faster and gets more in than TAJA combo, and at the end of the day, you'll eventually be right where BHS spam is pp wise with TAJA combo. You might get one or two more combos in than BHS spam, but if you can crack out 4 BHS in a row, TAJA is sitting there playing catch up, while BHS spammer is already regenerating pp. Anyway you put it, there are very few instances where TAJA would win, and that's on something like maybe XH Rodos. If Flicker > BHS were to cost less, like, maybe 34pp total, than absolutely, do it, but since it costs more than a BHS on it's own, bleh. What's the frames on a sway into first normal?

[milranduil]

I'm honestly starting to think TAJA is a waste of points except for Double Sabers.

flicker -> straight charge 0
any twin dagger combo
any volg combo

three very pertinent examples where TAJA is not just a ds skill.

[Dephinix]

Any twin dagger combo? Looks really similar with Orchestraa, but I'm tired and not going to bother doing the math right now. I'll reuse that damage calc link later. Partisan, yeah, of course, now where outside of XQs is partisan going to outshine the other fighter weapons? Straight charge I agree, but that's becoming the same thing for me. How often do you get to exploit it? Mother? Rodos? I'm sure there's more, but, eh.

[Zephyrion]

Any twin dagger combo? Looks really similar with Orchestraa, but I'm tired and not going to bother doing the math right now. I'll reuse that damage calc link later. Partisan, yeah, of course, now where outside of XQs is partisan going to outshine the other fighter weapons? Straight charge I agree, but that's becoming the same thing for me. How often do you get to exploit it? Mother? Rodos? I'm sure there's more, but, eh.

I have to agree that TAJAPPS is greatly useful for the reasons mentioned above and others. if we set the BHS spam aside
Wild Rhapsody > Orchestra may not be the highest damage in theory. However, it is both incredibly sustainable, and also safe. I mean why would you risk using more normals to then risk having to use your weapon action when you can just stack parry frames on top of each other to keep dishing damage, while only having to interrupt that to use one or two normals every once in a while or avoid very specific attacks from a boss. Additionally, Wild Rhapsody crafted allows for that slight movement, which doesn't seem much in the face of it but is most of the time invaluable to keep Brave Stance, or simply adjust your position to parry an attack
Quick March > Nocturne is really high DPS, but could hardly be mentioned because of its insane PP consumption, but TAJAPPS solves that problem + lets you keep a good elevation which is a key matter for daggers

It's just a few examples, but even if there were higher DPS combos, that wouldn't mean they would be preferrable to use at all, especially for TDs. Higher DPS is only acceptable as long as it remains practical, and I don't see Orchestra spam being more practical, especially when Daggers need their PAs to build gear and manage elevation and positioning.

[TehCubey]

BHS is 48 frames at gear 3, adding flicker jab is another 40 frames, so at the end of the day, all you're doing is conserving pp to do roughly the same amount of damage.. over a longer period of time.

It's not the same amount of damage. It's roughly the same (slightly lower) amount of DPS, but since the PP consumption per second is almost twice as low, you can spread that DPS over a much longer period of time before you have to restore it using normal attacks, which is a good thing.

You are running on a faulty assumption that DPS over a short amount of time is better/more bursty than the same DPS over a longer amount of time. That is faulty because damage dealt total isn't your DPS, but DPS * time. So same or even slightly lower DPS * much longer time = better damage. Is that clear?

[nguuuquaaa]

I did that in a separate notepad. 3 normal attacks with a BHS is 118F, if you wanted to go that route to regenerate pp. Under limit break all 3 attacks is enough to do another BHS or Flicker > BHS. That's my main point though, BHS is faster and gets more in than TAJA combo, and at the end of the day, you'll eventually be right where BHS spam is pp wise with TAJA combo. You might get one or two more combos in than BHS spam, but if you can crack out 4 BHS in a row, TAJA is sitting there playing catch up, while BHS spammer is already regenerating pp. Anyway you put it, there are very few instances where TAJA would win, and that's on something like maybe XH Rodos. If Flicker > BHS were to cost less, like, maybe 34pp total, than absolutely, do it, but since it costs more than a BHS on it's own, bleh. What's the frames on a sway into first normal?

And you missed my main point.
My point is the same as this.

It's not the same amount of damage. It's roughly the same (slightly lower) amount of DPS, but since the PP consumption per second is almost twice as low, you can spread that DPS over a much longer period of time before you have to restore it using normal attacks, which is a good thing.

You are running on a faulty assumption that DPS over a short amount of time is better/more bursty than the same DPS over a longer amount of time. That is faulty because damage dealt total isn't your DPS, but DPS * time. So same or even slightly lower DPS * much longer time = better damage. Is that clear?

[milranduil]

Any twin dagger combo? Looks really similar with Orchestraa, but I'm tired and not going to bother doing the math right now. I'll reuse that damage calc link later. Partisan, yeah, of course, now where outside of XQs is partisan going to outshine the other fighter weapons? Straight charge I agree, but that's becoming the same thing for me. How often do you get to exploit it? Mother? Rodos? I'm sure there's more, but, eh.

rotating quick march and/or rhapsody with orchestra is better dps and dpp than just spamming orchestra. not to mention quick march/waltz0 into a 5-6 hit nocturne.

partisan works anytime you need burst but don't want to dump your entire pp bar on 4-5 BHS. anga phase change, persona in PD, basically any boss still in spawning/stun animation for a short enough period of time to land most of trick rave.

[Dephinix]

It's not the same amount of damage. It's roughly the same (slightly lower) amount of DPS, but since the PP consumption per second is almost twice as low, you can spread that DPS over a much longer period of time before you have to restore it using normal attacks, which is a good thing.

You are running on a faulty assumption that DPS over a short amount of time is better/more bursty than the same DPS over a longer amount of time. That is faulty because damage dealt total isn't your DPS, but DPS * time. So same or even slightly lower DPS * much longer time = better damage. Is that clear?

You guys keep mentioning DPS actually, I mentioned damage per frame because it IS the actual damage that would be done over a however many frames I listed. Please read that again, obviously you misunderstood, I know what DPS means, and that's why I'm not using it in my argument. It wouldn't make sense to, like you just said.

I still use Raging Waltz > Wild Rhap > Orchestraa, but that's only to chase. Which happens a lot with Dues Esca. He is either moving so much you will never land a full TAJA PA on him, or he's completely knocked down and there are better options present. Unless you're pugging in non expert, then I can see why you would lean so much more to DPP.

rotating quick march and/or rhapsody with orchestra is better dps and dpp than just spamming orchestra. not to mention quick march/waltz0 into a 5-6 hit nocturne.

partisan works anytime you need burst but don't want to dump your entire pp bar on 4-5 BHS. anga phase change, persona in PD, basically any boss still in spawning/stun animation for a short enough period of time to land most of trick rave.

Yeah, my 4th palette is Quick March > Orchestraa > Wild Rhapsody. Completely agree with it being good, just not sure if it's worth 10 points to force yourself to combo PAs is all. I'm not really keeping in mind your time attacks either, I know it's incredibly useful there, but with how all these raid bosses are turning out to be, it seems less and less necessary. What's the proper Volg combo nowadays? Volg > Sacred-0 > Sacred-0?