Bouncer Class Discussion

[LonelyGaruga]

Vinto combos really aren't that great...and DBs don't really need PBF to out-damage JBs either. JBs have terrible DPS numbers so idk why you're bringing that up either. Sure, Vinto has high DPS on paper, but between the down-time it has to charge JB Gear up again, the lower ATK that JBs have compared to DBs, and the fact that most DB PAs have similar DPS when you take into account the time required to charge JB Gear again, it's not really a good comparison. And there's always Break Stance + Niren Orochi if you really want.

I've been seeing the "if someone says that something is bad, they must not use it" argument too often lately. I use JBs a lot but that doesn't stop me from seeing where they fail. The mobbing's decent enough with Rapid Boost active, but the bossing quite frankly sucks. Vinto is OK, but there's really no denying that DBs generally perform better. Obviously, using only one or the other is limiting, but using one when the other is better for the situation is just as bad.

[Rayden]

I don't know what you're talking about. Go look up the DPS numbers and see for yourself. Jet boots under Rapid Boost have comparable or superior DPS to dual blades during PBF. Vinto combos put out great DPS on Magatsu, and that is taking into account the time to rebuild gear. This can be shown easily using ACT. The best way to play Bouncer is to use both and switch between them as the skills go on cooldown, because those skills make a big difference to what each weapon can do, and when they're on cooldown the weapon type suffers a lot.

[Saagonsa]

You can't really compare DPS numbers alone when you're comparing two different weapons that use different multipliers. When you actually calculate it out ragrants+ragrants+vinto is far, far lower dps than immortal dove+pbf.

[Rayden]

I've already taken those things into account. I worked it out before, I use these weapons all the time, and I track my damage always using ACT (and even note the Zanverse damage separately), so I know what I'm talking about. Jet boots with RB do more damage than dual blades without PBF. Dual blades with PBF do more damage than jet boots without RB. Thus, the way to go is to use both and switch between them.

You must be doing something wrong with your math. Could you show your working out? Using two Ragrants isn't really the best way to refill gear anyway, if you're playing Bo/Hu - it does low damage due to the low tech multipliers, and is very inefficient for PP usage. One Gran Wave or Moment Gale can usually refill it, which is faster and better for PP usage.

[Xaelouse]

Rapid Boost is for bosses too, lol. The whole point of the RB+PBF build is to alternate between the two during a lengthy boss fight. It isn't actually bad and the DPS is sky high over non-PBF DB anyway even if you only spam Gran Wave.
The only legitimate complaint about Bouncer in general is their cooldown skills being too long, and how dependent they are on them. Outside of that, their weapons are fine for both mobs and bosses.

[Tunga]

Except jet boots can outdamage dual blades with Vinto combos, and PBF isn't even up all the time. If you're only using dual blades, you're just limiting yourself.

Spoiler!

Jet boots can't out damage DBs on a boss even with pbf on cool down and break SD. The difference in dps is too big for Jet boots to catch up. They're better suited for mobbing.

I honestly think it's amazing that you guys have such a low opinion of jet boots. Have you ever actually used them? Perhaps you should try them yourself to see what they're capable of (ACT works great with this), or at least look up the DPS numbers on the wiki to educate yourselves.

ACT makes JB look even worse compared to DBs. I've compared the difference and dbs will always be capable of doing near 3x the damage a JB can(on maggy). Jet boots are just bad at bossing that's just a fact.

[Lorne]

This thread is hilarious. People really think jet boots are bad for bossing? Most people can't think for themselves, and there's no point arguing with those people. They'll catch up eventually when one of the "pro players" they worship starts using jet boots and everyone else follows along like sheep.

[Saagonsa]

I've already taken those things into account. I worked it out before, I use these weapons all the time, and I track my damage always using ACT (and even note the Zanverse damage separately), so I know what I'm talking about. Jet boots with RB do more damage than dual blades without PBF. Dual blades with PBF do more damage than jet boots without RB. Thus, the way to go is to use both and switch between them.

You must be doing something wrong with your math. Could you show your working out? Using two Ragrants isn't really the best way to refill gear anyway, if you're playing Bo/Hu - it does low damage due to the low tech multipliers, and is very inefficient for PP usage. One Gran Wave or Moment Gale can usually refill it, which is faster and better for PP usage.

I added these numbers together http://4rt.info/psod/?t9FfO, took the duration of the combos from swiki and divided them by 60, then multiplied the results together to get 243,617 total damage per second with boots and 763,739 total damage per second from blades. Looking at the that blades number seems pretty high but I don't see where I might have been mistaken.

[Z-0]

I wonder what people are doing with blades to say they have lower DPS than JB without PBF... they most certainly do not if you're using Kite and Dove properly. Kestral Rampage is shit, which I am going to assume most people are using to say Blades "suck", which is true if you use KR!

Remember that DB Gear gives DB 20% extra damage if you have max gear, and DB has strong attacks, so DB does not get "nothing" while PBF is down, far from it.

[Rayden]

Here are the relevant numbers taken straight from the wiki:

http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?%E3%8...B3%BB#p333e23b

http://pso2.swiki.jp/index.php?%E3%8...B3%BB#v4249298

Normal + photon blades: 1586 DPS
^ Already taking into account gear 3, PBF, and PBF Up 1

Immortal + photon blades: 1938 DPS
^ Already taking into account gear 3, PBF, and PBF Up 1

Ragrants + Ragrants + Vinto: 1697 DPS

Those numbers right there already show that a Ragrants+Ragrants+Vinto combo has better DPS than Normal+PBF, and relatively close DPS to Immortal+PBF. It says it right there on the wiki, without me even doing any calculations myself.

Now let me remind you that those dual blade numbers take into account PBF, but the jet boot numbers don't take into account RB. RB increases damage by 15% and reduces tech charge times by 15%. Taking just RB's damage bonus into account pushes the Ragrants+Ragrants+Vinto combo up to 1951 DPS, which is higher than Immortal+PBF.

That's still not taking into account the reduced tech charge time, but that's complicated to work out because Ragrants' time is based on both charge time and cast time, and I don't know what the cast time is.


Now, Ragrants+Ragrants+Vinto isn't even the best way to go anyway. Let's look at Gran Wave + Vinto combos instead. The working out is in a spoiler to save space.

Spoiler!

Gran Wave (no derivation): 106 frames, 1852 power
^ Not taking into account gear

Vinto: 132 frames, 4427 power
^ Already taking into account gear 3

This time we're working things out ourselves from the frames and power values rather than just using the pre-calculated numbers from the wiki, and the multipliers apply differently to each attack, so we need to consider those.

Hunter gives a straight 1.76x to everything, except Vinto (which gets 1.6x).

Bouncer gives 1.386x to dual blades (Elemental Stance, Elemental Stance Up 1, and Shifta Air Attack Boost) - remember that gear and the PBF skills were already taken into account for the dual blade attacks.

Bouncer gives 1.5939x to Vinto and Gran Wave (Elemental Stance, Elemental Stance Up 1, Shifta Air Attack Boost, and Rapid Boost), as well as a 15% attack speed bonus (0.85x attack time). Gran Wave should get +0-15% damage from the gear, but since the gear level will be unpredictable for Gran Wave due to Vinto emptying the gear, I won't take it into account.

Normal + photon blades: 1586*1.76*1.386=3869 DPS

Immortal + photon blades: 1938*1.76*1.386=4727 DPS

Gran Wave + Vinto: (106+132)*0.85=202.3 frames, ((1852*1.76)+(4427*1.6))*1.5939=16485 power

Gran Wave + Gran Wave + Vinto: (106+106+132)*0.85=292.4 frames, ((1852*1.76)+(1852*1.76)+(4427*1.6))*1.5939=21680 power

Normal + photon blades: 3869 DPS

Immortal + photon blades: 4727 DPS

Gran Wave + Vinto: 202.3 frames, 16485 power

Gran Wave + Gran Wave + Vinto: 292.4 frames, 21680 power

Normal + photon blades: 3869 DPS

Immortal + photon blades: 4727 DPS

Gran Wave + Vinto: 16485/(202.3/60) = 4889 DPS

Gran Wave + Gran Wave + Vinto: 21680/(292.4/60) = 4448 DPS

Normal + photon blades: 3869 DPS

Immortal + photon blades: 4727 DPS

Gran Wave + Vinto: 4889 DPS

Gran Wave + Gran Wave + Vinto: 4448 DPS

Whether you need one Gran Wave or two Gran Waves to refill the gear depends on how much damage you're putting out (whether there's WB, how many mobs you're hitting), but in EQs one is usually enough. Either way, the DPS looks extremely comparable - sometimes more, sometimes less, but always very close.

Let me again remind you that Gran Wave isn't taking into account any gear power boosts here, so the jet boot numbers would be slightly higher in practice. You can also use Moment Gale to build gear instead of Gran Wave, and that can easily do massive damage with Zanverse (kind of cheating so I didn't use that for this calculation, but it's still very useful in practice).

Let me again also remind you that PBF and RB are both active skills and they aren't always available, especially in long boss fight EQs. Looking at how close the DPS numbers are, do you really think that dual blades are still better even when PBF is down? That's just laughable. You're really letting yourself down as players if you're stuck in "dual blade only" mode. Enjoy your low DPS, I guess.

And all of this is assuming you're always using the right element dual blades. If you're using Break SD, dual blade damage plummets even more.

I added these numbers together http://4rt.info/psod/?t9FfO, took the duration of the combos from swiki and divided them by 60, then multiplied the results together to get 243,617 total damage per second with boots and 763,739 total damage per second from blades. Looking at the that blades number seems pretty high but I don't see where I might have been mistaken.

I'm not familiar enough with that damage calculator to be able to say for sure what's going on there, but the numbers look very strange to me. I noticed that on that link, Dove and PBF have the "Element/Tech Multiplier" set to 12 when the page says it's generally 1.2 to 1.3, but you have Ragrantsx2 and Vinto with it set to 1.2. 12 is a way higher multiplier than 1.2 and that seems like a typo to me. Change it to 1.2 and the dual blade bars shrink a lot. The Ragrants damage also looks oddly low for some reason.