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Thread: PSO Remake

  1. #1

    Post PSO Remake

    Join the project's Discord: https://discord.gg/Qk8HpmG

    Hi guys, just a bit of an update for October 16th 2017. The project has recently pivoted, it is now a project for the creation of a custom Phantasy Star Online BlueBurst client. This client is being built to be compatible with PSOBB servers with a goal of full parity and interaction with other PSOBB clients. The good news is it already works! The project is relatively new, only started a week or two ago, and we've already got some decent progress.

    I've been trying my best to put out daily development update videos on my youtube channel and I've even created a playlist that you can use to see and keep track of progress videos.

    The announcement video:



    Series Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...4ONzXNF0FlH_7x

    The work is also 100% open source, semi-documented and available on Github in various places:
    https://github.com/HelloKitty/Booma.Proxy
    https://github.com/HelloKitty/Booma.PSOBB.Client

    The hope is this pivot will tap the resources of the greater PSO reverse engineering community, reduce the scope and complexity, increase the likelyhood of adoption, and lead to a better experience for more PSO community members overall. Stay tuned!

    Lasted Update Video:

    Last edited by Glader; Feb 2, 2019 at 06:51 PM.

  2. #2

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    You should try being a bit more active here just to get people to know you and get people comfortable enough to jump on board. This is a nice project but how can we be sure this work will not go fruitless.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampy View Post
    You should try being a bit more active here just to get people to know you and get people comfortable enough to jump on board. This is a nice project but how can we be sure this work will not go fruitless.
    Yes indeed, that's understandable. I've seen many posts like this in the past for various different games across various different boards that generally propose grandiose ideas and attempt to start a development team to work on something. I've found that those people in general don't really have a polished skill/skillset they can actually contribute to the team. Because of this they fail to recruit or attract competent developers and eventually doom the project. I, while still acknowledging I'm not industry material, feel this is a different case.

    Especially so that a previous PSO project, while going solo, made considerable progress. I'll ramble on in detail about some of the technicals about it; feel free to skip this part if you're not interested. It was at the point where it was possible to register multiple gameservers on something like an Amazon cloud instance and have region subserver associated with these gameservers providing a simulation for the game itself. Ahead of that sat the main entry point to the entire serverside, a proxy/master server, that facilitated secure logins and had preventative measures for bypassing this step. These requests were forwarded to a server application, which could reside technically anywhere, that I call the auth server which handled the blocking intensive operations such as bcrypt compares and database writes/reads. Players were then served a gameserver/ship list upon successful login and would select one which would aquire them a one time use 64bit token which they'd need to claim the session on the server that the proxy created. After selecting a ship they were redirected to the character creation/selection screen. Understandably PSO might not have characters locked to a ship, like they are in PSO2 it seems, but the goal was a general MMO serverside and having a single central database for characters for n many gameservers seemed like it'd scale poorly. The customization and creation was based on an open source framework called UMA. I've thought about writing a slimmer version to work with just PSO but I've have to work closely with an artist to work out how this would all come together. Anyway, after getting in there were serverside actors, such as NPCs, would were loaded upon nearing them. This is because a naive implementation of interest management existed, I'm currently exploring a more efficient technique that I don't believe has been done. However, this will not benefit a PSO-like game as much and so a more simplistic algorithm may be chosen. The serverside actors could be removed, moved or modified while the server was running and changes would be reflected on the client, sort of like a hotfix. I guess I should also mention other players, with their customized characters, could enter the game as well and be seen moving smoothish-ly. A simple deadreckoning algorithm was applied. The game also included a launcher, written as a windows forms lol, and a patcher with wyUpdate. I plan to redo a launcher in either windows forms again or Qt with a RakNet based patcher. RakNet is now opensource and I may rip out the patcher code and pinvoke/work with it. I don't really wanna work in C++ and Mono exists... so it may just be a cross-platform windows form. Anyway, enough technical stuff.

    I am active on the Unity3D game development forums, specifically the Multiplayer forums, where I attempt to provide help to others about networking as best I can. I've also initiated an open source project to compete with paid networking libraries as an alternative.

    If anyone has a feeling or reason specifically why they feel it may be fruitless, and are interesting in collaborating, we could always discuss it. I've been in similar situations myself where I'd joined in on a collaboration only to realize it was in fact fruitless. However, those projects were handled much differently and I'd not make similar mistakes.

  4. #4

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    Okay, first off. Having worked on a project similar to this in the past. Don't. As much as people would want to see it, Sega can and probably will shut it down, even if nonprofit. Second, while you have a base, doing just an HD remake isn't anything special. While we may not be able to change models right now, hi res textures are available for psobb. So, wasting your time there.

    What I'm asking is what will you do different? What will you bring to this project that makes it worth while? Where do your technical and design risks fall? How big a team do you expect to have? How will you host the game servers? Where would the money come from? Will you pay out of your own pocket or risk Cease and Desist order because profit on copyright work?

    Sure, I'm nosy, but I don't want to look forward to something that has no hope what so ever. I want a reason to have faith, but that is kind of broken with me towards projects like this.

    "Don't look for the people in your past. There is a reason they don't exist in your future." - Riesz
    Ship 2 - ID: Chrysheight

  5. #5

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    I think what most of these projects usually lack are a good plan and proper software design. Making a proper piece of software isn't easy and a game is quite the complex piece of software.

    For my profession I work as a business analyst and basically write down the software requirements/change specs so are IT supplier can design, build and test it. I am responsible from start to finish and have to make the decisions on a functional level. I also know som stuff about making a functional design / technical design. I am however not gonna contribute with these skills, maybe some advice.


    I might be able to help with art. I don't wanna make stuff like models and textures though. More something like concept art and such would be cool with me. You can check my work in my thread here, or in the DA link in my signature.


  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saya Laurent View Post
    Okay, first off. Having worked on a project similar to this in the past. Don't. As much as people would want to see it, Sega can and probably will shut it down, even if nonprofit.
    It's very likely that if it ever got to a deployment stage that Sega would file a cease and desist order yes. There is no way around the legal side there. Arguments could be made for exemption under the DMCA for reverse engineering but that's unlikely to be the end of it even if successful.

    Being noticed by Sega would imply a relative success either way. The codebase of the project will be written in such a way to be reusable and applicable to general multiplayer games. Many art assets they would have been created could be applied in general too; Sega cannot claim infringement on things such as trees, rocks, doors and etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saya Laurent View Post
    What I'm asking is what will you do different? What will you bring to this project that makes it worth while?
    Firstly, I'm not a designer in the sense of a game designer. While I can and will design an efficient serverside for the game I don't see it beneficial to, at the moment, discuss what sort of different designs will be delivered. I can however talk about things I think would be in the realm of possibility.

    1. I believe several of the technical hurdles that existed in 1999 during development no longer exist today. It's very possible that a richer and tighter knit community and game could be produced. The bandwidth and computation power in todays age makes issues they encountered trivial. What this may mean a complete removal of the lobby and block system. Basing the location in which players socialize within Pioneer2 itself.
    2. The bandwidth constraint of playing with 4 actors and NPCs, honestly I doubt these were controlled entirely by the server in the original game, no longer exists. It's very reasonable to think more open versions of the original four zones could exist such that various hunter parties could be participating in the zone; yes I'm aware PSO2 has a feature like this but I'm pretty sure we can agree that it's implemented in such a way that shattered immersion when players pop in and out of your game play seemingly phasing into your "universe" so to speak.
    3. I think with hindsight a look at combat elements, what works and feels good and what doesn't could be made. Is spamming Ra-Foie fun? Maybe, maybe not. These are things I don't think discussing at this point would be beneficial though.


    No, I don't think this could ever be World of Phantasy Star craft. That's a silly idea that is outside the scope of even large projects. I'm aware PSOBB has over the years had some modifications. Post-processing effects and increased texture quality, allowed only to the extent of which the underlying engine can handle, do not bring a game into the 21st century. A lot of that code, specifically the networking which was highly exploitable due to its reliance on the client, is over a decade dated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saya Laurent View Post
    Where do your technical and design risks fall?
    I'm not familiar with accessing risk in design. However, a vast wealth of information since the inception of Phantasy Star Online has published academically related to MMOs/MOGs. Entire surveys of past and present architectures have been written with over a decade's worth of trial and error experience happening in the industry since PSO. I do not see much risk, I see less design risk than for the original PSO which it itself is an innovator; especially so considering that PSO exists and that the design of a remake of a game generally depends at least slightly upon its targeted game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saya Laurent View Post
    How big a team do you expect to have?
    I have, can and do work alright solo. Generally it's the artistic things that set me back. I do not expect some general size. It's an ambitious project but this is not a company and there are no deadlines. I think in general it will be a fun experience that will provide a vast amount of knowledge overall. I've seen and contributed, thankfully I eventually learned to keep my work in a private repo, to a handful of online projects with large numbers of 'contributors'. One such being a project called AoA. This opened my eyes to the fact that more is not better, what a nightmare. I do not prefer numbers over friendly, passionate and competent developers. There is no desperation, people who are all of the above may be few and far between but a project is better for it with mostly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saya Laurent View Post
    How will you host the game servers? Where would the money come from? Will you pay out of your own pocket or risk Cease and Desist order because profit on copyright work?
    This is a strictly non-profit work. Depending on how others feel I/we will likely open source it to. It will, essentially, have community ownership. Hosting is a moot topic for a serverside that isn't written, unless you consider the last one I've written. Hosting for developer testing only can be taken care of. As for the C and D, we can only hope that Sega sees the prospect of web and mobile gaming with the upcoming switch to plugin-less Unity play with WebGL. That there is grandiose though =).

    Quote Originally Posted by Saya Laurent View Post
    I want a reason to have faith, but that is kind of broken with me towards projects like this.
    Hmmm, well all I can say is it will be worked on. Whether I'm solo or not. If I'm solo you can expect it to be functional. If I'm with other developers you can expect it will be considerably functional and better looking. Artists are not given enough due credit for the contribution they make to a game I think. Players and people tend to judge a game graphically too, but this is beside the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by qoxolg View Post
    I think what most of these projects usually lack are a good plan and proper software design. Making a proper piece of software isn't easy and a game is quite the complex piece of software.

    For my profession I work as a business analyst and basically write down the software requirements/change specs so are IT supplier can design, build and test it. I am responsible from start to finish and have to make the decisions on a functional level. I also know som stuff about making a functional design / technical design.
    I sadly do not have experience in this area. I too agree a game, especially anything involving multiplayer, tends to push complexity to the extreme. I find it quite interesting, I think a quote I read in a paper the other day summed it up nicely; (paraphrased) MMO/MOG/DVE's are currently pushing all known boundaries of computer science.

    Quote Originally Posted by qoxolg View Post
    I might be able to help with art. I don't wanna make stuff like models and textures though. More something like concept art and such would be cool with me. You can check my work in my thread here, or in the DA link in my signature.
    That's fine, I will not force someone to do something they aren't interested in doing. At the moment there isn't a mad rush to recruit people either. I feel planting this seed, so to speak, and cracking down with some hardwork after this week (finals week) will be best. My availability to program is very low due to this so gathering others who are interested and essentially telling them I'm busy would not be beneficial.

    I cannot pretend to be competent in the realm of art. From what limited knowledge I have concept are can be essential in the overall modeling process, although much concept technically exists as PSO is already a well seasoned project itself. If you're interested we can speak eventually. There is no major rush at the moment though so when you have time, if you're interested in something, and I have time we could chat.

    I should also state this should be a fun experience and endavour. I feel I have realistic expectations and am willing to hear arguments in favor of them being surreal too. We're not EA, we don't need to ship this title in one year. I think this could be a fun collaboration if treated the right way.

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by qoxolg View Post
    I think what most of these projects usually lack are a good plan and proper software design.
    When I write I try my best to write for resuability and decoupling. In the grand scheme it may or may not be fantastically designed but from the small selection I've encounted in a couple of other collabs I've worked in online I can say that it is at least better than that. We're talking code such as god classes and fully public classes and no consideration for scaling or future revisions. Oh the nightmare lol.
    Last edited by Glader; Nov 29, 2014 at 04:08 PM.

  7. #7

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    You never answered my thing on cost. You said it would be nonprofit. Obviously it would need hosting for it. How would that work? Nothing is done for free.

    "Don't look for the people in your past. There is a reason they don't exist in your future." - Riesz
    Ship 2 - ID: Chrysheight

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saya Laurent View Post
    You never answered my thing on cost. You said it would be nonprofit. Obviously it would need hosting for it. How would that work? Nothing is done for free.
    You had a lot of questions that I tried to provide detailed answers too. I believe hosting to be a non-issue at this early stage. Having to worry about hosting, especially if what is cheap is not decent enough to sustain the playerbase, is a fantastic issue to have in the future. At the moment the only thing that matters is hosting in general for people developing and that I can reasonably provide.

    If you must wring an answer from me, even though hosting would be difficult to legally do but let's suppose it was somehow legal, I would host probably from digital ocean. In fact, it's very likely I'll have about 100 bucks credit on there thanks to a Github program going on. The sort of scale this project will encounter does not warrant, at the moment, consideration for hosting. We don't need to procure a contract with a datacenter like AT&T and Blizzard. It's something that can be resolved in the future. In general I like the idea of Amazon's elasticity. Load balanacing for general mmos may benefit for the ability to dynamically launch an instance of register more instance servers or temporary auth servers, hashing is expensive >.<, is cool. But it's not really an issue at the moment.

    Edit: I don't pick digital ocean just because I may have 100 dollars credit. It was recommended by another developer who I had the chance to speak to. He works on a project called Lifeless and it is a Unity3D multiplayer game. He recommended it for general testing deployment.

  9. #9

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    There is no cheap hosting for dedicated servers. That's the thing.

    "Don't look for the people in your past. There is a reason they don't exist in your future." - Riesz
    Ship 2 - ID: Chrysheight

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saya Laurent View Post
    There is no cheap hosting for dedicated servers. That's the thing.
    Dedicated hosting is not a necessity during development which is not a short process, I have a machine which I could run 24/7 to host these server applications anyway. It does noting at the moment anyway. Even testing could be done on cloud-like services in future phases. I just do not see hosting as an issue at the moment. Maybe it's a problem but not one that warrants an immediate solution right now. We;re not talking millions of dollars anyway, we're talking like 30 bucks a month or an initial several thousand dollar purchase. It's nearly the last thing for a project like this to worry about and in the grand scheme of things, for a hobby/community/fan made project it's a small amount to pay. I had a hobby before that has easily soaked away that much. A physical machine purchase I wouldn't even consider a cost. I need one anyway with or without this project; it's just not an issue man I'm sorry.
    Last edited by Glader; Nov 29, 2014 at 05:05 PM.

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