Force Discussion

[Zephyrion]

How are Nabarta T0 and Gigrants T0?
I got both but I can't tell what the point is.

Nabarta seems 100% worthless, point blank with average damage and uses like 20pp a second.

Gigrants, well I made the mistake of not comparing my previous craft with T0 but it doesn't seem to be worth losing pp at the same rate as Nabarta T0.
I hear it's great but I don't get how, when the damage doesn't look spectacular but it uses such an absurd amount of pp.

Nabarta type 0 is mainly used to parry, but kinda worthless since charge parry ring exists, still has very niche uses against multi-hit AoE attacks since it will parry as long as you have some PP remaining, unlike the ring

Gigrants type 0 is indeed very PP intensive. However the damage of the spinning blades on charge plus damage of the final blade when charged long enough is nothing to be scoffed at. While it doesn't beat concentrated ragrants in terms of DPS, the range of the final blade has an insane AoE (see the gold circle on the ground for Kuron boss room ? if you stay on center, final blade covers the entire circle), meaning it's a very good tech for rod when you need the quick AoE without resorting to Zondeel

[Ryuhou]

Oh, I see. Sounds pretty good.
Still, I'll have to test around but if it's too niche I will probably get back to conventional crafts.

[Hysteria1987]

A quick talk on armours, if I may - I've been using crafted Saiki forever and a day, mostly because they're affixed to the gills, and I've started looking at what 12*s we have to see if they're worth it. I've never really bothered much with the calculations and formula stuff, so I'm not 100% on which are the best DEF attributes to be looking at, and swiki's a bit hard to interpret at times, so I figured I'd ask here.

Compared to PP-crafted Saiki, are 12*s worth looking into at all?

I gave a few a look, including the Astra stuff, "Rear / Gruberzbera" and "Arm / Gigsukudo" ('scuse the names, swiki translations- they're the Gix and Gruzoras ones). I purposely ignored Ray and Union just for the moment, because I really don't know enough about them just yet - when SEGA released then I just kept doing my thing. In any case it seems to me...

Positives:
* Based on the ones I looked at, I could get up to +80 T-ATK more with the same affixes.
* Rings and stuff, I got the option to take more now but this seems relatively minor to me (though again, I have kind of ignored the last couple ring updates, so I might be surprised).

Negatives:
* Base DEF stats seem much lower than crafted Saiki, though more of them have percentage-based DEF bonuses. Are higher-end 12*s going to be generally better at DEF here than crafted Saiki?
* Even if I get +10PP per piece, that only adds up to the same as each individual Saiki piece - I lose the whopping great set bonus...

Anyway, keen to see some thoughts on this.

[Zephyrion]

So far, Force doesn't have much use for *12 units since aside from general quality of life rings (like air reversal or short mirage), and of course Tech Charge parry.

*12 are generally more durable than fully crafted PP Saiki, or even 1 HP 2 PP crafted Saikis for a few reasons

-Their base defense is still at least marginally higher than crafted saiki

- At the moment, aside from whitill set from titles and a few individual units, they all give a good amount of HP, which makes you by default more durable

- While crafted Saiki HP is great for tankiness, since it mostly gives S-DEF and striking resists, ranged Saiki giving more R-DEF and shoot resist is actually quite terrible (shooting type attacks are actually really rare in this game). A vast majority of attacks are of striking type. Tech and elemental attacks are less common but still quite present (for the most part those are the ones with a clear element attribute and the ability to inflict a status effect. Think, Falz Angel's attacks).. What this means is that the tankiest units are those that gives both striking and tech resist, with more emphasis on striking type, since it will reduce damage for a vast majority of attacks.

At the end of the day though, the stats themselves aren't enough to blow Saiki out of the picture. the main thing that should make you decide whether to upgrade to *12 or wait until Saiki is completely blown out is the ring system. If you can just try any Left ring that catches your fancy and see if you'd absolutely want to have their effects while keeping Tech charge parry equipped or not.

[MysticAura]

* Even if I get +10PP per piece, that only adds up to the same as each individual Saiki piece - I lose the whopping great set bonus...

This is one of the main issues holding back 12* sets. Some of the 12 units have really good bonus stats, but not enough to match some of the better set effects from older units. Taking into account current rings I think that Austere rear/arm and Union leg is the best choice for Fo. Invades were pretty cheap last time I checked, so if you have some extra meseta and stones/badges (or just buy Austere directly for a bit more money), you can aim for that set. You will lose some PP compared to crafted Saiki, but you can offset this with affixes by leaning more toward a PP affix and relying on Austere and Union's larger set/bonus HP and defense pools to keep your defenses up.

I think in the end Austere/Union will offer better stats, but I don't remember the exact numbers. These numbers might be off but from memory:

Saiki - 0 HP, 55 PP, 60 attack, PP crafted

Austere + Union leg - 265 HP, 39 PP, 85 attack.

For comparison, a full Union set: 225 HP, 27 PP, 75 attack.

In addition to stats, I would say that having both Tech Parry ring and Short Mirage is a huge boost to your defense capability. Obviously it's not a stat boost, but combined they give you a lot more options for avoiding/blocking damage and can also help your offense. In the future, more strong rings may boost the desirability of 12 units, but I'm personally waiting for a 12 set that beats Austere before I upgrade.

[Selphea]

These numbers might be off but from memory:

Saiki - 150 HP, 55 PP, 60 attack crafted

If you're getting 55PP you lose the 150HP. So either 0HP 55 PP crafted or 150 HP 25 PP uncrafted. Or 300HP 25PP HP crafted of course.

[MysticAura]

Thanks for the correction, I couldn't remember if the HP was set effect or bonus stats.

[Hysteria1987]

I'd been wondering why so many people had been pushing for 12*s, when they seemed like a sideways move at best rather than an upgrade. I was sure I had to be missing something. The big difference between me and them is... a lot of them are bravers, shing shing shing! Thanks for the advice y'all.

[Nyansan]

12* units make sense for melee characters like hunter, fighter, bouncer and to an extent gunner as there's quite a few QOL rings that really makes gameplay much more smoother (which imo is a whole lot better than raw stats)

For every other class, making the switch early is for when sega decides to release more rings.

Keeping saiki for now is ok as they're still quite relevant, but if you happen to get several 12* units might be best to slowly build them up to eventually replace your existing gear. No reason not to prepare for future releases considering that tatk affix stuff are on the cheaper side.

[Ryuhou]

At the moment a lot of 12* units have lower def than crafted units and no set bonuses worth mentioning (cause they are still too rare to reliable get more than 1 or 2 of a set).

So unless there are at least 2 L rings you can't live without (like TMG damage up and Front Sroll on GuHu), there is no point getting any 12* unit as of yet.
Soon enough we'll get better 12* units and they'll be common enough to find a full set without massive luck or endless hunting.