Summoner Subclassing General.

[Moffen]

Ignore this.

[Dephinix]

Thank you for starting this!

[Loveless62]

For Gu/Su, I don't see why you would put points into Dive Roll Advance. If you want invincibility frames, you should be using stylish rolls, not dive rolls. You should also have a single point in Rare Mastery Gunner, as gaining 30 R-atk is a pretty good return for a single skill point.

Edit: I would also max Zero Range Critical, due to its synergy with TMG Mastery and the Critical Strike Range ring, as well as some modest gains from reducing damage variance. I would remove two points from Showtime Star and one point from Attack PP Restorate to make this possible.

Here is the result: http://arks-layer.com/skillsim/skill...F4ObnHNJ200006

[Zorak000]

I had to check swiki to make sure support fire stacks onto point assist, and they said it does so that changes my opinion a little.

/su seems like an anti-boss subclass since a good chunk of your damage is tied to point assist and support fire. 1.21x damage for only All Atk Up 1+2, then 1.53065x point assist + support fire. 1.2705x and 1.6071825x if you are utilizing Pet Elemental Weak Hit (it gives 1.05x damage for the player's damage too)

/su's direct competition is /br; with Average Stance granting an unconditional 1.265x damage for uncharged attacks, 1.3915x for charged. Weak Stance gives 1.485x to weak points and 1.6335 to charged attacks hitting weak points. if you do not plan on using Katanas or Bows at all with braver sub, you have more than enough skill points to take both stances. Attack Advance is notable due to stuff like Wands and Sacrifice Bite 0 having really strong basic attacks to begin with

if you are not using Tech damage, then you gotta factor the opportunity cost of /hu too; 1.760913x for striking damage and 1.61417025x for ranged damage, completely unconditional beyond landing Just Attack timings, is something you don't want to overlook. Automate, Massive Hunter, and Iron Will all provide some very appreciated durability. /fi is also notable if you can keep yourself positoned, alternate PAs, and possibly apply some status effects too

I kind of don't want to talk about the advantages of having access to shifta, because there are too many variables involved with the direct benefit. shifta's effectiveness grows with how much of the enemy's DEF you can overcome with your mag, weapon, raw-atk class skills, and affixes; since shifta only boosts your base "(main class + 20% Subclass) x race/gender modifier" stats

tldr; when picking a subclass, you gotta weigh the opportunity costs of not picking a different subclass. While /su does seem at least usable now, you probably don't want to take it anywhere that isn't a Boss EQ unless you are sure the MPA can handle crowds well enough

I do have some questions/comments about some of the things you say in here, so I'll point those out:

Gunner/Summoner

Allowing you to maintain your high HP,use zanverse chains and fly around with safoie Type-0

With orbit TMGs,you'll be able to immediately sheathe them on the ground for your PP regain boost.

Safoie 0 can cover vertical distance nicely, but between Grimm Barrage and Arial Shooting (chraged while on the ground, or JA'd into from another PA while in midair) I don't really see too big of a need for using it over those

you can instant-sheathe with lobby actions, or even just swapping to a rifle/gunslash and back again; I don't really know what you mean by this beyond maybe sheathing in mid-air with techs? even then you would need to do something else after to stay in midair, which usually means unsheathing your guns to shoot anyway

Hunter/Summoner

The Hunter/Summoner combo was originally laughed at as being mostly pointless for anything besides being a damage sponge,however recent updates have changed this.

Access to Megiverse renders any need for sacrifices bite mute.
Capable of buffing with Shifta/Deband,which can be used in conjunction with the adrenaline ring for longer duration.
HP gain over time as well as automate and the high HP that the Hunter/Summoner combination have to offer should ensure that you don't die,being able to recover if you're just above the 50% HP mark and being instahealed by automate should you fall below that.
Ilzonde and SafoieT-0 can be used to close gaps on enemies with weapons that have awful gap closers such as the partisan or the wired lances.

What does that even mean; Sacrifice Bite doesn't heal you, it applies a +20% damage boost to sword Photon Arts and Sac Bite Type-0 can make Basic Attacks stronger than most of sword's PAs on top of the 20% boost. also I think you mean "moot" ("a debatable point") not "mute" ("unable to make sounds")
HP Restore, Resta, and Megiverse can allow a hunter to heal with a Gix weapon equipped and not have to reset the potential's boost from 20% back down to 6%. It can help Automate too, but that would only need to happen if you were keeping Monomates on you (I just dont carry monomates if I am running automate)
Adrenaline only increases the amount of time each Tick of shifta/deband are worth, the only skill that actually boosts the maximum possible duration is Techer's Extend Assist main-class-only skill.
Partisan has Rising Flag Type 0, it's not as fast as guilty break but I'd say it does the job well enough; Wired Lance has Adapting Spin and Grapple Charge, the former is an amazing positioning PA since you can backflip away from a boss'es face so you can holding current them at the precise distance for the best damage, and the latter still exists I guess. Safoie can help you fly up to a spot that you couldn't normally reach quickly though.

[Raujinn]

I mean if you were gonna go with the max amount of power you could get from Gix HuSu I'd say drop automate so mate items are never used. Depend on HP Restorate or quick-cast Megiverse if you need heals. If you're swapping weapons though it's kinda not much different to having mates cause then you're resetting the bonus anyway.

This makes HuSu a bit better, sure, but I wouldn't recommend going with it over HuFi which still annihilates it in raw power.

[Kondibon]

EDIT: Also, before anyone accuses me of being wishy washy about this. I've always felt SU was an OK sub. I just didn't like how everyone seemed to think the all class tact is good enough reason to try and use pets with summoner as a sub as your main gimmick.

tldr; when picking a subclass, you gotta weigh the opportunity costs of not picking a different subclass. While /su does seem at least usable now, you probably don't want to take it anywhere that isn't a Boss EQ unless you are sure the MPA can handle crowds well enough

I actually feel the opposite. I think Su sub is better for playing solo. For boss EQs a lot of the utility should ideally be coming from other players. The only real exception I can think of is if the class you're using as a main has really bad or clunky bossing options otherwise. like Te.

Safoie 0 can cover vertical distance nicely, but between Grimm Barrage and Arial Shooting (chraged while on the ground, or JA'd into from another PA while in midair) I don't really see too big of a need for using it over those

The vertical thing is actually a HUGE deal considering how slow Gu is at it normally. Also unlike a lot of other movement PAs it doesn't make you stop until you reach the hitbox you were targeting. Which means you won't get stuck on somethings face trying to use it. I agree that you shouldn't stop using Gu's own PAs, but Safoie has a LOT of utility that they don't.

Also I mentioned before that you can stupid fast chains with it and Ramegid-0. :U

[Raujinn]

I think its just wise to make sure that anyone coming across this thread realises this stuff isn't the meta is all. Experimenting with these builds is fine and I agree there's some interesting things that Su can bring to some classes it's just you don't want to see these classes turning up in raids.

HuSu interests me in the same way that HuTe did, only it seems like Su actually offers Hu more than Te did which is good. I found HuTe gameplay really fun its just that big loss in attack power you take. :c HuSu is still a loss its just not as sharp a one and does offer a bit of extra utlity. I'm still levelling Summoner up but for a sub I'm targeting something like this: http://arks-layer.com/skillsim/skill...OqnHXGAbn0000j
No Hunter build included yet.

I'm ignoring the elemental bonus on this tree but... honestly I was struggling to figure out places to put SP in. Like Photon Blast boost, HP boost and the SE duration reduction skills are kind of "I have no idea where else to put em" so idk you might as well put some points in Pet Element just for that extra bit of damage when it counts.

Otherwise yeah, no Automate to get the most out of Gix sword, build for high HP to get the most out of HP Restorate and other auto-recovery skills (healing guard, maybe Just Reversal HP gain ring if you think you need it). Quick-cast Megiverse and a normal attack should fully heal you if Sacbite 0 is up which it should be at all times. .

One thing to maybe consider is that switching to the all-class Tact just to bring out Ceri or Popple for PP restoration might be pretty effective (there's a PP restore parfait coming up apparently?). I don't know how it stacks up against Orbit or like Queen Viera or something mind.

[Moffen]

I think its just wise to make sure that anyone coming across this thread realises this stuff isn't the meta is all. Experimenting with these builds is fine and I agree there's some interesting things that Su can bring to some classes it's just you don't want to see these classes turning up in raids.

One of the reasons Gu/Su interests me so much is that when I was in a team a while back,I was playing Gu/Ra and a teammate was playing Gu/Hu during pota.
Using chains and Dead approach,he was able to hit about 13mil dmg total ,while I was only ever capable of hitting about 8mil tops. A lot of it being down to having no reliable weak point to hit,but its becoming a trend with a few bosses and I see myself struggling in UQ amdus because of this. Although I can do incredible 999s with wb+chain+IF-T0,I cant do this consistently,which makes me lose a lot of damage and I feel as if I really lag behind the MPA.
Then theres wb jamming,and when I can only fire 1wb just for it to get gimped anyway,its kind of a downer.

Kondibon pointed out that ramegid can build chains super fast,and with Gu/Su having slightly higher PP due to the build,it seems like I can build up super fast chains without relying on weak points or JA's,and set up a zanverse while ramegid is building a chain before spamming the hell out of Dead approach for the chain finish. Zanverse seems like it'd boost that considerably,and the chain finish department is where I'm truly lacking in due to usually needing to rely on weakpoints for all my damage.

Though personally I need to test this myself,but thats why I'm CO spamming my Su on my Gu/Ra atm.
I move a lot fighting mobs,so SS is kinda rendered useless.
And getting SS to proc on bosses such as Deadleon and the other UQ bosses,or even Magatsu and Perennial Apocalypse Double and Abyss is a pain.

This opens up a few R-atk striking PA's for me on the gunner side that I couldnt use to much effect with Ra sub too.

This whole thread is for experimenting,and maybe it might become the meta at some point,depends on peoples findings on Su subclassing for certain builds as a whole,but Gu/Su has a lot of potential and Hu/Su's been used before (Before the point assist buff)

[echofaith]

Point assist doesnt really change my stance much. I alway felt Husu was already good on its own, mostly because hubr was a thing long before sac bite got buffed.Only thing you missed compared to hubr was sidestep JA, and guren traveling. Otherwise, husu have close multipliers to average stance hubr(can even be higher based in element and PAs you use), techs, regen and higher base stats(which should affect all buffs).

As someone said before, not the best class to bring to an mpa boss, but I would argue it have its merits in stuff like TD thanks to their lack of reliance on enemy facing(unlike hufi), and being able to zondeel stuff. Also super good for soloing stuff because of regen and resta. You could even play slightly less yoloish to be able to wear a gix without much hassle

[nguuuquaaa]

Depend on if Point Assist/Support Fire can boost Zanverus or not, TE/SU may actually replace GU/TE as Zanverus bot
Otherwise, TE/SU is an okay combination, with stronger single target damage than TE/FI. Even more so with the upcoming all-class tact.

Hmmm, I should bring TE/SU to PD then....