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  1. #971

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kril View Post
    but FI and GU are easy dmg dealers tho, just Hero homes in everything so fast that you cant do as much on mobs, boss wise another story
    The damage fall-off between a good FI or GU and abad one is much greater than that between a good HR and a bad one. Especially with FI, because a bad FI is either afraid to use Limit Break or is dead when they do!

    Even the worst HR can evaporate a boss with Hero Time Finish.

    EDIT: I'll grant that the biggest thing Hero has over other classes is still mobility, even all the mobility buffs were handed out. I was leveling Hunter tonight and was kind of shocked at how much stronger it is than I remember it being - I was still killing slower than a Hero, but mostly that was due to less on-target time.

    But the real point of what I was trying to say is that I'm having a much harder time learning how to do the best DPS (as opposed to the decent DPS I could do with my eyes closed as Hero) is because I'm trying to learn the class in an environment where I can trivially vaporize the vast majority of what I fight, and the few things I can't so dangerous it's hard to really learn while fighting them (Example: Fighting Dio Hunar and Gal Gryphon at the same time tonight while soloing Darkness from the Chaos).

    Admittedly, this is partly a solo problem - those more dangerous things would be easier to learn on if I wasn't having to deal with all the aggro myself - but I think the majority of players play solo a lot. And I think this is where a lot of bad HR come from. I recognize the problem for what it is because I am the kind of player that is always trying to get better and learn things... but I doubt your average up-and-coming Hero player has any clue that there is anything wrong with the tactics that got them to level 70+ to begin with.

    I do think someone trying to learn FI or GU now would have something of the same problem, actually.
    Last edited by Stormwalker; Nov 16, 2017 at 10:08 PM.
    Ship 2:
    Katarin: GUmarl. Lethal precision with a whimsical streak
    "Save the day and look good doing it. That's what this job is all about!"

    Alessandra: FInewearl. A hyperkinetic, photon-fueled mayhem machine.
    "Oho! I actually felt that! You must be pretty strong!."

  2. #972
    Garbage-chan Kondibon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormwalker View Post
    Admittedly, this is partly a solo problem
    I'd argue that it's not, because soloing something gives you a better idea of if you're doing well or not. A lot of bad players are people who get carried through EQs because they think they're doing fine when they aren't. If you're with other people it can be hard to tell exactly how much of what's going on is you.

    I do agree that there's a problem with getting the opportunity to learn though.

  3. #973

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormwalker View Post
    The damage fall-off between a good FI or GU and abad one is much greater than that between a good HR and a bad one. Especially with FI, because a bad FI is either afraid to use Limit Break or is dead when they do!
    That's only partly true though, It's mostly a learning curve thing. Playin Hero to its best is actually hilariously hard, because you have to account for gear management, counters, varied DPS loops with all of their innate advantages and shortcomings and be proficient with other weapons for when sword doesn't make the cut too. The thing is Hero's floor level is much higher, since just using normals is actually enough for you to matter damage-wise, whereas missing chains or tasting the floor with LB is enough of a negative feedback.

    The difference between a good Hero and a bad Hero is still as ridiculously wide, probably even wider than good/bad FI or GU because 60% loss from Hero boost and bad Hero Time management is incredibly detrimental.

  4. #974
    エターナルブレイバー milranduil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyrion View Post
    That's only partly true though, It's mostly a learning curve thing. Playin Hero to its best is actually hilariously hard, because you have to account for gear management, counters, varied DPS loops with all of their innate advantages and shortcomings and be proficient with other weapons for when sword doesn't make the cut too. The thing is Hero's floor level is much higher, since just using normals is actually enough for you to matter damage-wise, whereas missing chains or tasting the floor with LB is enough of a negative feedback.

    The difference between a good Hero and a bad Hero is still as ridiculously wide, probably even wider than good/bad FI or GU because 60% loss from Hero boost and bad Hero Time management is incredibly detrimental.
    was gonna respond to stormwalker, but this sums it up. skill/gear gap on hr dps is enormous.

  5. #975
    Phantasy Dad Online II Dragwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyrion View Post
    That's only partly true though, It's mostly a learning curve thing. Playin Hero to its best is actually hilariously hard, because you have to account for gear management, counters, varied DPS loops with all of their innate advantages and shortcomings and be proficient with other weapons for when sword doesn't make the cut too. The thing is Hero's floor level is much higher, since just using normals is actually enough for you to matter damage-wise, whereas missing chains or tasting the floor with LB is enough of a negative feedback.

    The difference between a good Hero and a bad Hero is still as ridiculously wide, probably even wider than good/bad FI or GU because 60% loss from Hero boost and bad Hero Time management is incredibly detrimental.
    This pretty much sums up what I was going to say as well. I'm constantly trying to push and optimize hero to it's limits skill-wise. Previously I was used to 2 button mode and just switched to 3 button for the sake of cutting down on numpad palette switching (had different rotations for different situations before). I'm usually paying close attention to the gear and damage others are putting out, and I can easily say there is indeed a huge gap between bad and good hero players using similar gear. Just as Zeph said, it's just that the floor for being useful as a hero player is as easy as doing normal attacks.
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  6. #976

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    A dead FI still does 0 dps, though - and a FI who doesn't use Limit Break because he's afraid of dying does pretty poor DPS. I've seen plenty of both out there (and was the latter myself for a while, once upon a time... I didn't have a lot of faith in my FI skills back then).

    I'm well aware of how technical Hero can be - even if I haven't developed those skills yet, I've certainly been reading about what it takes to do the really good DPS with a Hero - it was one of the things that first interested me in the class. But if you're saying that Hero's floor is as high as it is, and yet it still has that wide a gap.. that would be saying it's even more ridiculously overpowered than its detractors claim.
    Ship 2:
    Katarin: GUmarl. Lethal precision with a whimsical streak
    "Save the day and look good doing it. That's what this job is all about!"

    Alessandra: FInewearl. A hyperkinetic, photon-fueled mayhem machine.
    "Oho! I actually felt that! You must be pretty strong!."

  7. #977

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    It's a class where the rewards actually justify the work put into it. People that tell others to get good yet avoid playing Hero are the biggest memes around. It's the best class to actually stay on and adapt to the game with. That's why most people didn't bother switching from it even after the balance changes.
    Last edited by Xaelouse; Nov 17, 2017 at 10:33 PM.

  8. #978

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaelouse View Post
    It's a class where the rewards actually justify the work put into it. People that tell others to get good yet avoid playing Hero are the biggest memes around. It's the best class to actually stay on and adapt to the game with. That's why most people didn't bother switching from it even after the balance changes.
    It's an example of pretty poor game balance where one class is objectively better than all the others, no matter how good you have to be to make it that way. When that class also is the strongest for players who aren't good at the game, that's even worse.

    I like Hero, but I honestly still think FI and GU are more fun to play, even if Hero IS stronger. That's more about the weapons than the class mechanics, though - GU TMG's are far more fun than Hero TMG's, and FI melee is more fun than Hero melee. I particularly enjoy aerial combat, though, so that probably biases me.
    Ship 2:
    Katarin: GUmarl. Lethal precision with a whimsical streak
    "Save the day and look good doing it. That's what this job is all about!"

    Alessandra: FInewearl. A hyperkinetic, photon-fueled mayhem machine.
    "Oho! I actually felt that! You must be pretty strong!."

  9. #979
    Sega Stockholm Syndrome GHNeko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaelouse View Post
    It's a class where the rewards actually justify the work put into it. People that tell others to get good yet avoid playing Hero are the biggest memes around. It's the best class to actually stay on and adapt to the game with. That's why most people didn't bother switching from it even after the balance changes.
    I'm hard pressed to agree with the statement that not playing hero and telling other people to gitgud are contradictory, or "the biggest memes around".

    Because when it comes down to it, personal skill aside, there are people who are just going to naturally be a better fit for BrHu or FiHu than Hero, even though they can technically play well with Hero. :Kermitpls:



  10. #980
    エターナルブレイバー milranduil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormwalker View Post
    It's an example of pretty poor game balance where one class is objectively better than all the others, no matter how good you have to be to make it that way. When that class also is the strongest for players who aren't good at the game, that's even worse.

    I like Hero, but I honestly still think FI and GU are more fun to play, even if Hero IS stronger. That's more about the weapons than the class mechanics, though - GU TMG's are far more fun than Hero TMG's, and FI melee is more fun than Hero melee. I particularly enjoy aerial combat, though, so that probably biases me.
    Your idea of how balance is right now is pretty off if you think Hero is at any degree considerably stronger than Gu or Fi. While perhaps harder to play, there is very little difference in terms of damage capability and I would argue that in fact Fi tends to be stronger than Hr.

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