Hero Class Discussion

[Altiea]

Your idea of how balance is right now is pretty off if you think Hero is at any degree considerably stronger than Gu or Fi. While perhaps harder to play, there is very little difference in terms of damage capability and I would argue that in fact Fi tends to be stronger than Hr.

I'm assuming we're talking about raid boss applications?

[milranduil]

I'm assuming we're talking about raid boss applications?

almost anywhere, frankly. i have a friend in my team who consistently carries BQEQ and UQ with both fi and hr. he plays both at a very high level.

[Stormwalker]

Your idea of how balance is right now is pretty off if you think Hero is at any degree considerably stronger than Gu or Fi. While perhaps harder to play, there is very little difference in terms of damage capability and I would argue that in fact Fi tends to be stronger than Hr.

It's not really my idea of balance. It's what I'm being told here.

I said initially that the performance gap (not the skill required - the damage output) between a bad Hero and a good Hero is lower than the performance gap between a bad Fighter and a good Fighter. I base this on my observation of how quickly I kill as a Hero even when I'm not particularly trying to be efficient - it's considerably faster than playing a Fighter at the same low-effort level. I consider this pretty reflective of the capability of a bad player - if I can do it while not trying very hard, a bad player can probably do it when trying their best. It should also be noted that my Fighter gear is a little better than my Hero gear, mostly because I am using my Fighter units for Hero right now (until I can afford to affix a new set of units) and therefore they only have S-ATK.

But I'm being told the performance gap between a bad Hero and a good Hero is larger than the performance gap between a bad Fighter and a good Fighter. For this to be true, a good Hero must be putting out truly staggering amounts of damage - far above what a good Fighter can put out.

One of the following must be true:
1). The gap is larger for Fighter than Hero, and a good Fighter can equal or exceed a good Hero. This was my original belief.
2). The gap is larger for Hero than fighter, and a good Fighter cannot equal or exceed a good Hero. This is what I've been seeing in the posts since the one I made earlier.
3). I'm off-base with my statement that a bad Hero can outperform a bad Fighter. This one, I find difficult to believe, because bare-minimum performance on Hero seems pretty strong. Unless I'm a much better Hero than I think I am (because my conclusions are based on the assumption that I'm not all that good at Hero yet).

Even in XH content I can rip through everything I see effortlessly as a Hero. Fighter isn't difficult in XH, but I do have to at least try. With Hero, I have to go out of my way to find content difficult enough to even figure out how to efficiently use my tools. I'm at the point where I think I'm going to have to start soloing Ultimate just to learn to play my class.

[Sizustar]

https://twitter.com/TomacoESP/status/931905026397675522

Someone recorded common combo testing on Double

[milranduil]

It's not really my idea of balance. It's what I'm being told here.

I said initially that the performance gap (not the skill required - the damage output) between a bad Hero and a good Hero is lower than the performance gap between a bad Fighter and a good Fighter. I base this on my observation of how quickly I kill as a Hero even when I'm not particularly trying to be efficient - it's considerably faster than playing a Fighter at the same low-effort level. I consider this pretty reflective of the capability of a bad player - if I can do it while not trying very hard, a bad player can probably do it when trying their best. It should also be noted that my Fighter gear is a little better than my Hero gear, mostly because I am using my Fighter units for Hero right now (until I can afford to affix a new set of units) and therefore they only have S-ATK.

But I'm being told the performance gap between a bad Hero and a good Hero is larger than the performance gap between a bad Fighter and a good Fighter. For this to be true, a good Hero must be putting out truly staggering amounts of damage - far above what a good Fighter can put out.

One of the following must be true:
1). The gap is larger for Fighter than Hero, and a good Fighter can equal or exceed a good Hero. This was my original belief.
2). The gap is larger for Hero than fighter, and a good Fighter cannot equal or exceed a good Hero. This is what I've been seeing in the posts since the one I made earlier.
3). I'm off-base with my statement that a bad Hero can outperform a bad Fighter. This one, I find difficult to believe, because bare-minimum performance on Hero seems pretty strong. Unless I'm a much better Hero than I think I am (because my conclusions are based on the assumption that I'm not all that good at Hero yet).

Even in XH content I can rip through everything I see effortlessly as a Hero. Fighter isn't difficult in XH, but I do have to at least try. With Hero, I have to go out of my way to find content difficult enough to even figure out how to efficiently use my tools. I'm at the point where I think I'm going to have to start soloing Ultimate just to learn to play my class.

i'd illustrate it something like this.


i think you underestimate how trash some heroes can be, spamming brand new star on singular mobs constantly losing hero boost.

[Zephyrion]

-snip.

I didn't mean to show the difference so much in terms of strength, but how punishing it is to use FI mechanics vs Hero mechanics.

FI's main conditional is LB (Brave and TAJA are easy enough to maintain most of the time). as strong as it is, it's only a limited 20% + PP regen boost (roughly 27% if you add crazy beat). LB puts you at 20% HP BUT is blanketed by Iron will which when maxed out is a 75% chance of saving your ass for poor assessment, mistake or sad backshot. While losing LB to death will lenghten its cooldown, it's not too harsh of a punishment unless you died at LB start, and between Half dolls and the abundance of moons, the occasional death is actually not too terrible.

Hero's main conditional is Hero Boost which is a whopping 60% over time. While you're not in risk of dying, you literally don't have any safety measure to keep it if you fucked up, aside from Hero Time which is not up that often. In other words ANY of your fuck-ups is immediate punishment that rarely can ever be mitigated. As for Hero Time, the mere fact you build it faster by countering, which actually leaves more windows for potential Hero boost resets makes finding the right balance between risk and reward really tough

Also LB is a conditional you choose to activate. Most of the decent FIs will know there are times where you'd better hold your LB a bit until things calm down. Hero Boost reset, on the other hand is a constant Damocles sword above your head.

If we put that all together, The floor level for Hero might be higher but the learning curve gets exponentially harder the more you try. Comparatively FI floor level might not be as forgiving, but the learning curve for it is definitely not as steep. My previous post was only trying to explain that

[Moffen]

Does anyone know the percentage of your maximum hp an attack needs to do before hero bonus is reset?
Ive heard 10,15 and 20% being thrown around and im sure its 20% but i need confirmation.

[Masu]

Let's not forget than Hr from, my experience, is one of the class if not the most reliant of your ISP quality of service... Mine have pretty high latency (not lag) and I can't count how many counter are wasted or simply fuck up your dodge timing, then comes original target punishement because it did not got rekt = rip Hr boost.
UQ is great for this to happen =_= b

https://twitter.com/TomacoESP/status/931905026397675522

Someone recorded common combo testing on Double

Codota Idetta, not Dooble Also always neat to see this kind of stuff. Thanks for sharing.

[milranduil]

Let's not forget than Hr from, my experience, is one of the class if not the most reliant of your ISP quality of service... Mine have pretty high latency (not lag) and I can't count how many counter are wasted or simply fuck up your dodge timing, then comes original target punishement because it did not got rekt = rip Hr boost.
UQ is great for this to happen =_= b


Codota Idetta, not Dooble Also always neat to see this kind of stuff. Thanks for sharing.

countering has nothing to do with ping

[Masu]

countering has nothing to do with ping

Am not searching false excuse. I know when I derp (too often still ) and when I don't. So why when the dodge counter sound "ring" and I immediately do a normal attack, nothing happen huh? Also my game experience have nothing in common with yours. When you complain about lag, most of the time it would be smooth game for me. May you play at tier 6 or tier 1