Ep 5 balance update discussion

[Zephyrion]

You'd still have to actually spend the skill points on the skills though. Do you actually have both Brave and Wise on your Fighter main tree? Most people don't, because there aren't enough points for Wise after getting Brave, Brave Up, Brave Critical, Critical Strike, Limit Break, TAJA, TAJAPPS, PP Slayer, the Crazy skills, and so on.

The only thing making them passive would do is eliminate the RNG component if you DO actually have both skills, and save you having to manually switch.

It would make Fighter better and more reliable as a sub (but still not as good as Hunter), which is something it needs. It wouldn't really affect Fighter main at all, or if it does, it would be by making other options attractive rather than simply buffing it.

It would still become a system change that would bring tons of incoherences. either you do that with FI alone, meaning that FI would break the "stance rule" from melee classes or you do that for every melee classes which would create utterly stupid situations (weak points would trigger both average/weak stance, breakables would trigger both element/break if weap is the right element and so on)

Such a change would bring tons of problems along with it, all for the sake of having the comfort and privilege of not having to press a button. I don't think it's sound reasoning at all

also people massively dowplay the strength of FI as a sub for non-melee classes. It's already arguably second best pick for FO and GU, pretty strong with TE, and with damage cap, currently best SU sub, and the only thing keeping it to reasonable levels is stance choice and switching.

I'm not saying the idea itself is terrible, but it entails tons of fundamental issues and would imply tons of system rework, only for the sake of dealing with situational inconsistencies and getting rid of a button press. I can agree SEGA can be lazy, but I wouldn't want to deal with so much problems for what is merely a "quality of life" thing, especially when there are tons of simpler and better solutions out there that don't involve re-doing everything or giving FI unique privileges.

The problem with Melon is that fully charged, it only does 30% more DPS than Maron Break. Melon is simply not a viable alternative to Maron and you probably have better options like Synchro and Aero. It all depends on how much they neuter Maron. If Maron does 66%+ of its current damage, it will still be viable. Anything lower and Su will struggle to solo Deus Gracia.

As for the other pets, they really don't compare to most other weapons. Sure they're probably better than Jetboots, but they're probably worse than Rifles. This of course includes all the other pets besides Maron and is assuming the target you're attacking is not AFK the whole match (Aero Spiral is undeniably good DPS). I don't think it's possible to even come close to soloing Gracia without Maron and that is where I believe the benchmark for balance should be when it comes to "high dps" classes.

Marron changes won't make it bad. It just boils down to it needing max charge and more hits to charge, which means you'll have to actually assess the situation and know when to use other pets.

While I agree Melon is currently underwhelming, it sure is getting buffed, and if that buff is substantial enough, it could fit as a DPS pet in situations where Marron can't build charges quick enough.

...And when most bosses aren't attacking, they're probably in some sort of stun, which means synchro and Aero get to shine. Naturally other pets don't have nearly enough DPS, but they are meant for mobbing, so if we're talking bosses, they are kinda irrelevant

Marron nerf sure is a substantial hit for SU, but saying the class is "neutered" is clearly an overstatement. I honestly think it will just make the class not default to Marron almost all the time, which is a good thing. We'll have to see how the buffs and nerf pan out at the end of the day, but I don't see SU becoming useless, even with Marron nerfs

[vantpers]

PP Slayer nowadays is just weak and barely worth getting. Drop Brave crit and you can easily go 10/10 LB and full Wise.

The point of having stance switch is so that you commit yourself to one stance. For example you will lose damage if you want to switch to wise on a something like 4 second opening mid combo, so you're stuck with your second best option, which is trying to stay in front of the enemy with Brave. If you make it automatic it's a big damage buff because you don't care in the slightest about positioning and the usual situation where your attack accidentally slips you past enemy in Brave changes from 1.0 multiplier to 1.75. Now imagine mobbing where mobs are spastic and might not want to all turn in your direction.

It would be a damage buff plain and simple.

[IWinToLose]

Marron changes won't make it bad. It just boils down to it needing max charge and more hits to charge, which means you'll have to actually assess the situation and know when to use other pets.

While I agree Melon is currently underwhelming, it sure is getting buffed, and if that buff is substantial enough, it could fit as a DPS pet in situations where Marron can't build charges quick enough.

...And when most bosses aren't attacking, they're probably in some sort of stun, which means synchro and Aero get to shine. Naturally other pets don't have nearly enough DPS, but they are meant for mobbing, so if we're talking bosses, they are kinda irrelevant

Marron nerf sure is a substantial hit for SU, but saying the class is "neutered" is clearly an overstatement. I honestly think it will just make the class not default to Marron almost all the time, which is a good thing. We'll have to see how the buffs and nerf pan out at the end of the day, but I don't see SU becoming useless, even with Marron nerfs

Pets have high "sheet dps" compared to other weapons and PA's largely because of SU's low multipliers. Also, most enemies are far more resistant to pet damage than melee, tech, and ranged.

It depends on if they increase Melon's damage output. From what I saw, they are only making Melon not blow up on the Summoner or something, not actually increasing its damage. If they leave Melon's numbers as they are now, Melon is still a bad pet and you are much better off using Maron as long as the possibility of getting hit still exists. Like I said, Melon Strike, fully charged, only does 30% more DPS than Maron Break and we all know that Maron Break is horrible in comparison to other weapons. Also, more hits on Maron to fully charge it will make it an incredibly situational pet. Not even Nyau's fury can reliably charge Maron if it needs 9 hits to charge lol.

After the nerfs, Force will still be able to reliably solo Deus. After the buffs, Fighter will probably be able to solo Deus with Knuckles in record time. Depending on the nerfs to Maron and assuming no buffs in damage to Melon, Summoner will not be able to solo Deus unless you have godly gear and seriously godlike skill. Considering Maron makes up 80% of a Summoner's damage and using any other pet instead of Maron will result in at best 1/3 of Maron's damage, it will be incredibly difficult to make up for that lost damage. No amount of innovation or 30% boosted Maron Breaks (Melon Strike) will make up for 80% of Summoner's damage.

I encourage nerfing Maron, but the reality is that the other pets simply pale in comparison to things like Ragrants/Gimegid, TD, DS, DB, TMG, Partizan, Bow, Sword, Katana, and Rifle. Granted, I do think the other pets are superior to Gunslash, JB, Wand Whacking, and that whip weapon. However, without buffs to the other pets, the class is dead. There is simply no reason to use pets for damage when everything else I listed performs better in nearly all situations. What's amazing to me is that while I agree that Maron deserved a nerf, Maron is still entirely inferior to both TD and DS (except with CT on Mother). Not only are these two weapons entirely untouched, but Knuckles are likely to outperform them knowing SEGA's balancing record.

I guess only time will tell. I am personally planning on abandoning the class and either jumping onto the Hero bandwagon or the Fighter bandwagon.

[Alenoir]

The problem with Melon is that fully charged, it only does 30% more DPS than Maron Break. Melon is simply not a viable alternative to Maron and you probably have better options like Synchro and Aero. It all depends on how much they neuter Maron. If Maron does 66%+ of its current damage, it will still be viable. Anything lower and Su will struggle to solo Deus Gracia.

What? Fully charged, Melon Strike does 10% of the damage as a fully charged Maron Strike per hit. The point is, you can throw said melon about 10 times to do the same damage as a maron. The problem with melon is its absolutely horrible HP pool. Someone claims it can tank good, I tried it on Gracia during DPS check. No can do.

Maron is not getting a damage nerf at max for Strike. It's getting a nerf for the first stage of being blown up.

PS: lrn2Redran

[Moffen]

PP Slayer nowadays is just weak nowadays and barely worth getting. Drop Brave crit and you can easily go 10/10 LB and full Wise

Probably the daftest thing I've heard all week.

[vantpers]

Probably the daftest thing I've heard all week.

That's a wonderful opinion

[IWinToLose]

What? Fully charged, Melon Strike does 10% of the damage as a fully charged Maron Strike per hit. The point is, you can throw said melon about 10 times to do the same damage as a maron. The problem with melon is its absolutely horrible HP pool. Someone claims it can tank good, I tried it on Gracia during DPS check. No can do.

Maron is not getting a damage nerf at max for Strike. It's getting a nerf for the first stage of being blown up.

PS: lrn2Redran

I don't think you understand the concept of DPS. DPS is how much damage you do per second. Sure throwing Melon 10 times will allow you to do the same damage as one Maron Strike. However, 10 Melon tosses takes 590 frames, almost 10 seconds. In that same amount of time spent throwing Melon, you could've chosen a higher DPS option like Synchro or Aero or a less conditional DPS option like Redran.

The DPS of a charged Melon is only 30% higher than spamming Maron Break. We all know how much of a Summoner's DPS is made up of Maron Break and how much is made of Maron Strike. The situations you would use Melon Strike are similar to the situations you would use Maron Break or even Aero Spiral or Synchro. Now I will concede that Melon Strike has a mechanical advantage over Aero and Maron Break when used against a moving target that doesn't stagger you and wherein you're not required to move (you can also bypass staggering problem with Massive Hunter). Melon Strike also has reasonable AOE for mobbing.

Also, I know how to play Summoner and how to use Redran. I have successfully solo'ed Deus Gracia so I think I know what I'm talking about when it comes to DPS options for Summoner.

PS: lrn2knowthedifferencebetweenDPSandrawDamage

[Ryuhou]

And no, Fighter's stances are not terrible because of ping, because positioning is tracked by client and not server.

Don't talk about something you don't understand, seriously. I am playing with a crippling ping and half the mechanics fail because of it, even using a latency fix.
I can get almost no aggro so enemies never face me, the only reliable way to get stance boost on fi. They face random other players and so neither stance is even remotely reliable and I lose a lot of damage. And since bosses run after other players only, I rarely can finish a chain unless I use rifle and bosses even move out of kc range pretty often. Even warcry almost never works for me.
Enemy aggro ignores you if you have a bad ping and they find a target before your client can respond.
Hell, I cannot even do Funji in cq because of this.

[isCasted]

Dude, you were talking about stances, you never mentioned aggro or anything in your post. Nothing in your post indicated that that's what you meant. Also, I've been playing for almost 4 years with 350 ping, but it's not like it's related to the topic at hand.

[Zorak000]

honestly the /hu vs /fi stuff would be settled if they just deleted JA Bonus 2.

though that would stink for ra/hu and gu/hu

EDIT: and the idea of stances becoming passives and both on at the same time breaks down with bouncer. right now things work because you could do elemental boots then swap for break with blades, but if they were both on that would basically require you to have a blade for each place you plan on taking it into, and messes up on non-elemental breakables like darker walls and yamato's guns. sure those might not be HUGE problems but eh they might use more non-elemental destructables