So the Hero Class, the First Advance Class, Just How Much More Powerful is it?

[TehCubey]

Not directly a reply to this, but we will either have balance or identity. We cannot have both balance and unique gameplay style, or balance and bring something to the table that others do not bring.

Other PvE games with "competitive" nature have tried to balance damage dealing specs. None has managed it satisfactory.

Wrong. Balance doesn't mean everything is identical. It means every class is able to meaningfully contribute to the same extent.

Perfect balance is impossible to reach or at least highly impractical considering the cost to result ratio. But there are games that are decently balanced those that are not, and PSO2 is definitely one of the latter.

[Dark Mits]

Wrong. Balance doesn't mean everything is identical. It means every class is able to meaningfully contribute to the same extent.

Perfect balance is impossible to reach or at least highly impractical considering the cost to result ratio. But there are games that are decently balanced those that are not, and PSO2 is definitely one of the latter.

Simple example. Try to balance 2 classes. One class deals 100 point of damage every second, and the other deals 200 points of damage every 2 seconds. They do not have any other damage.

You can't. If enemy has 100 hp or less, then the second class has 50% clear speed. If enemies have between 101 and 200, then they have equal clear rate. If enemies have between 201 and 300 hp, then class B has 75% clear speed. On and on. Class A is in every single case equal or better than class B.

So if you try to buff class B by reducing the cooldown of its damage ability or increasing the damage it deals, it can be shown that class B then becomes better in almost everything than class A.

My point is, since it's mathematically impossible to balance such simple case, it is impossible to even resemble balance in an environment with thousands of variables.

-=EDIT=-
Regarding contribution to equal extent, let's take TE for example once again as I always do. It is arguably one of the least damage-contributing classes in mpas. So if the game's code was changed so that extra damage dealt from TE's Shifta was attributed to the TE instead of the player who actually dealt the damage (like Zanverse), how different would contribution be? And if RA's WB acted like that? On and on.

Sometimes people just look at damage meters alone and base their opinion on those.

[Aexorcet]

Simple example. Try to balance 2 classes. One class deals 100 point of damage every second, and the other deals 200 points of damage every 2 seconds. They do not have any other damage.

You can't. If enemy has 100 hp or less, then the second class has 50% clear speed. If enemies have between 101 and 200, then they have equal clear rate. If enemies have between 201 and 300 hp, then class B has 75% clear speed. On and on. Class A is in every single case equal or better than class B.

So if you try to buff class B by reducing the cooldown of its damage ability or increasing the damage it deals, it can be shown that class B then becomes better in almost everything than class A.

Give enemies 400 HP. The difference goes away. You can also just have varied content that plays to each classes' strengths. If damage windows are limited, class B has an advantage without the need for any buff. It will put out 200 damage during those short windows, while the other class can only do half that.

Balance and diversity aren't at odds with each other in my opinion. It can take work to achieve both, but it should almost always be achievable.

[Dark Mits]

Give enemies 400 HP. The difference goes away. You can also just have varied content that plays to each classes' strengths. If damage windows are limited, class B has an advantage without the need for any buff. It will put out 200 damage during those short windows, while the other class can only do half that.

Balance and diversity aren't at odds with each other in my opinion. It can take work to achieve both, but it should almost always be achievable.

In the above example, all values between 200*k+101 and 200*k+200 for k=0,1,2,.... make classes equal. It works for 150, 320, 600, 701 etc. But that means that content has to be designed with this class limitation in mind. However content cannot be static. It has to provide variety. Sometimes you have lots of mobs and low-hp bosses, sometimes you have single-target boss with high hp, sometimes you have quick-moving boss, sometimes you have boss with adds, etc.

If two classes are not identical in what they can do gameplay-wise, then one class will be better than the other. The "best" a developer can do to "balance" the situation is to make content where some classes are good, and content where other classes are good. Then we would have equal QQ from all perspectives (which as another poster pointed out is the closest to balance you can get).

[Aexorcet]

In the above example, all values between 200*k+101 and 200*k+200 for k=0,1,2,.... make classes equal. It works for 150, 320, 600, 701 etc. But that means that content has to be designed with this class limitation in mind. However content cannot be static. It has to provide variety. Sometimes you have lots of mobs and low-hp bosses, sometimes you have single-target boss with high hp, sometimes you have quick-moving boss, sometimes you have boss with adds, etc.

Content needs to be made cohesive regardless I think. In PSO2, solo quests need to factor in for the low DPS classes for example. In the case described above there are some poorly balanced cases, but the majority work well. Not only are certain multiples of HP even, but the difference in uneven cases gets smaller as HP gets higher. To relate it to PSO2 where you could use hundreds of attacks per EQ, class A and B are essentially the same in a damage race.

I agree that content should be varied but I don't think that this is a hindrance either. If a quest has two phases where the first is many low HP enemies and the second is evasive high HP enemies, then both classes will have strengths and weaknesses in the quest. Rapid fire A will be better in the first phase while heavy hitting B will outperform A in the second because it can put out more damage in the short windows that allow for attacks.

If two classes are not identical in what they can do gameplay-wise, then one class will be better than the other. The "best" a developer can do to "balance" the situation is to make content where some classes are good, and content where other classes are good. Then we would have equal QQ from all perspectives (which as another poster pointed out is the closest to balance you can get).

It depends on how it's implemented. You can have these different situations play out all in the same quest so that no one is left out. Modifying my 2 phase quest example from before, if an EQ boss spawned a bunch of aggressive mobs and began to power up for a MPA wide attack, that gives each player a choice on what to focus on. Forces might decide to go after the mobs with Zondeel and AoE's while Gunners would start building up chains on the boss. You could do it the other way around, but it wouldn't be as effective (barring what I'm hearing about S roll's buff).

It works on a larger scale where entire pieces of content are easy/hard for certain classes if there is a wide range of content (PSO2 doesn't have this) that provides multiple paths to the same objective. I'd actually really like to see that, although not in PSO2 as it is now.

There are definitely challenges when it comes to doing this, on that I agree with you completely. I just don't see why it's impossible or beyond any reasonable difficulty for a developer in general.

[aiMute]

Ever since I came back to this game, it's been Hero this and Hero that, overpowered this, overpowered that. As someone who's capped that class to level 80, I can agree, playing with this class was a walk in the park, but just how much more powerful is it compared to the average main + sub class? Couple of updates ago, we got a 5% boost skill for every normal class, so that's a 10% combined, do you feel that this made it more fair? If not, how much more of a boost in terms of percentage damage to you think that regular classes should get?

What I consider OP is not it's damage (which is not bad) but ability to do almost everything as well as any other class in game, sometimes better:
it has best out of combat PP regen and very good in-combat too, bestest normals, best travel PA that can turn with z-aim while being fast and cheap, has Bo double jump, can cast techs unlike other non-casters except Bo (techJB don't exist), can do damage at range, has access to all 3 attack types, has faster (instant) JA than Br snatch step, has complete air freedom with cheesy talis, has PA that moves it up, and down, has very good counter, has offensive "major skill", can attack at max range, has piercing ranged attacks, all the skills have VERY low start-up (which when combined with "instant JA" lets Hr kill small shit MUCH faster), has iframes on many PAs, has long-charge nuke (which is better than any other because it has iframes), has large aoe PAs including 360 ones, has mobile PAs, PAs with superarmor, can dash cancel almost any attack at any time, can aircombat, has access to fastest quickfiring long range attack, has (limited) death-protection, has multipart PA although it can't be spammed, also no gimmick dependency like weak or front stance or standing snipe.

The only things Hr lacks is complete hurrdurr freedom because taking damage can lower your damage output (like with Fi and Gu), hueg aoe range attack which is the only reason it's still possible to see Rangers, talis tech tricks, VG/BA tricks, buffed support techs, CT, WB, automeme and some other minor shit no one cares about.

Hr might not have the best DPS but most of the time it's simply easier to pick Hr for any stuff including bossing simply because how much easier it is to play do stuff with it (sega designing new content around Hr doesn't help either).

[Zulastar]

Hr might not have the best DPS but most of the time it's simply easier to pick Hr for any stuff including bossing simply because how much easier it is to play do stuff with it (sega designing new content around Hr doesn't help either).

Yep that's the point. As for me I dunno much about other classes I don't play, but I think only Katana Braver can copmete in speed with Hero. But compared to Braver Hero have much smooth gameplay and can do more things.
I found SaFoie-0 pretty quick moving option too but...

[GHNeko]

a lot of people in this thread focus on hero's damage too much rather than the passive boosts to DPS the class gets from all the quality of life skills and features that are bundled with the class.

also

"smoothness and mobility" shouldn't be a selling point for a class in an action oriented MMORPG. that should be the de factor default for ALL the classes because saying it's a class specific feature implies that the rest ot the classes have mobility issues and are clunky, which relative to hero; they very much are and thats why we're getting charms for Air Reversal and Step Jump, as well as Double Jump and First Blood.

The latter two should not be class specific skills and the prior two should have been universal skills/functions and not rings lol. You want your action game to be universally smooth and fun to play. i dont get anyone suggestion or motioning to the idea that the feeling of playing hero should be hero exclusive.

[wefwq]

So it's cool and fine to play hero class now?
It's not a cheap class anymore now that every other classes got buffed?

[SteveCZ]

"smoothness and mobility" shouldn't be a selling point for a class in an action oriented MMORPG. that should be the de factor default for ALL the classes because saying it's a class specific feature implies that the rest ot the classes have mobility issues and are clunky, which relative to hero; they very much are and thats why we're getting charms for Air Reversal and Step Jump, as well as Double Jump and First Blood.

The latter two should not be class specific skills and the prior two should have been universal skills/functions and not rings lol. You want your action game to be universally smooth and fun to play. i dont get anyone suggestion or motioning to the idea that the feeling of playing hero should be hero exclusive.

What are you even talking about. Of course it can be a selling point, and every class should be exclusive on their own, and that's also pretty much what SEGA is aware of and currently about to enhance. I'm sure that's pretty much a lot of people talking about here except the question of this thread itself about the DPS.

So it's cool and fine to play hero class now?
It's not a cheap class anymore now that every other classes got buffed?

What the? It's not even that bad to use in the first place even today.