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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by vantpers View Post
    How is it wrong? I don't see why a player wouldn't take a free skill with no demerit. LBI as far as I know is also often taken in spite of cooldown, just because it's not always that you get instant moon atomizer on you, and not always that solo quest even allows dying, and it's also one of the reason why is shouldn't be available at level 85 when you're good at Fighter and actually worry about your DPS so much. Another part is that knowledge of class shouldn't be taken into account when balancing. It's an action game, you shouldn't reward players for reading someone's guide more than you reward them for using their motor skills. X main switching to Gu/Fi to get Endless title is a plague because the knowledge barrier is easily broken by just copying someone's loadout.

    Also S-roll Arts is very very broken on its own. It has huge vertical hitbox and a class that should stay in the air meaning you never have to endanger yourself during mobbing, headshots hit themselves, the AoE is huge, it's used by spamming a dodge ability with big invincibility window only sometimes broken with sataim cancel, and it does good DPS in spite of all that. Compare it to for example using Sword on Hunter where Nova Strike has worse DPS, worse AoE, small vertical range, guard frames only lasting until you release it then locking you into vulnerable animation, no big vertical range.
    career fighters don't even take limit break insurance. fighter players bank on triggering IW if they get hit because the cooldown increase on LBI compounds over time which results in a larger net dps loss. most fighters dont even take automate on their trees anymore, man.

    re: s roll arts, yes, it's an extremely strong skill, but gunner has ALWAYS operated in the air and out of harm's way. like, since ep3, this is nothing new. when phaleg dropped in ep4, i beat her in less than 30 minutes of it dropping by flying in the sky and raining chains and elder rebellions down on her ignoring 90% of what she was doing. also, gunner is still one of the least played classes in the game. that doesn't change the power level of s roll arts, but it's not a problem you encounter often. hardcore players ALWAYS change things up when the damage tiers get shifted. it's happened before with braver, force and hero. gunner and s roll arts isn't the plague you think it is. it really doesn't even affect you in 10% of the mpa content you do.

    the path they seem to be going on is to continue to make classes extremely strong. don't be surprised if another class gets an s-roll arts level skill at lv90 cap. i'm honestly banking on it. again, it makes the game more approachable for newer and less skilled players and they're the ones that pay the bills.

    for strong players, it makes the game too easy for 80% of the game but for the general player, it makes the game actually playable. i don't really like how this has turned out but you really can't walk this back after doing all of this unless they announce a huge number crunch for ep6 or something.

    i will say, omega pd (or true falz i suppose) actually looks kinda interesting. i have a glimmer of hope. i just hope that they don't pull the omega loser and make him hit like a wet noodle. i also hope (and sorta assume) that this is where aus nt will come in and i hope that other than the nem nt/slave nt requirements, there really isn't any 13*/14* drop rng required to get aus nt.

  2. #102

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    I fail to see it address any points. Gunner operates in the air but it also means it should have incentives to operate within enemy attack's range or pay in raw power for that. Sroll brings the air cheese even further and it's one of the reasons why it should be removed, especially since the entire point of big mob packs or multiple bosses is their attack saturation, and the entire skill makes it a joke while being gigantic AoE. You should also refresh your knowledge of class split in game.

    https://i.imgur.com/eekyS9W.png

    There is about 60% chance there is a Gunner in your MPA, and one Gunner makes any level 80 spawn in Ultimate Lilipa disappear. Making some classes more overpowered than other classes makes it worse for new players since they are still expected to be compared to good players playing overpowered classes, while at the same time generally playing the average class. In fact fuck that shit. Weaker players in the game are always bullied regardless of how easy the content is because the entire game is full of Time Attack cancer and rush mentality. It's unfixable unless Sega removes the entire EQ system that promotes it and timers everywhere.

  3. #103
    Hardcore Casual Dark Mits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jene-chan View Post
    i 100% agree that the power creep has gone too far and honestly i dont see them walking any of it back since the general player is still pretty weak and they want to give them more tools to succeed in the game than worrying about delivering challenging content/good balance to the hardcore players.
    This is the point I'd like to comment on, since for me it is the greatest reason for the current situation of the gameplay.

    Unfortunately every single developer thinks that the best/only viable way to close the gap between the lower and upper echelons of the playerbase is to simply give buffs and new tools to everyone. This has the unwanted (?) effect that the better players are simply given even more tools, while the worse players are not really able to use them to such great extent. This in turn means that the new tools implemented to help the worse players end up helping the better players significantly more.

    Instead, Sega should aim to change the gameplay so that executing everything near-perfectly still yields the best results, but the effectiveness/reward gap between bad use and good use of those tools is not that huge. You can't have an enemy deal an attack for 1500 damage, and then give players the option to simply double-tap and avoid all 1500 points, especially when this double-tap has no opportunity cost and no resource cost. If dodging was replaced with blocking for example, the better players would still actively try to block everything, but now the difference between perfect and average playstyle would be smaller.

    And on a similar tangent, imagine if damage didn't increase linearly or multiplicatively with higher player stats but instead logarithmically. So getting more attack would still bring the best results, but the difference would become smaller and smaller the more stats a player has.

  4. #104

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    gunner /does/ have incentives for getting close range -- they have huge multipliers that work only in the zero distance range. it's where you get your best damage. they also get good damage from a range since sega has decided they needed to be able to do that as well.

    you complain about gunner making spawns in ult lilipa disappear, but pretty much ALL classes can do that at this point - the enemies in ult lilipa just don't have a lot of hp and aren't scaled up. s roll arts is the best mobbing tool in the game sure, but is mobbing really content you want to drag on? most people hate mobbing and just want to get to the bosses and honestly, this game isn't setup to have mobs be single encounters of merit. seriously, who actually cares about mobbing?

    you also act like gunner is this king class that sits above all, and yes, it's very good right now, but hero, fighter, braver, bouncer and ranger can put out similar dps on bosses if the classes are played well. i'm not the strongest gunner player by far, but i constantly top mpa parses for bosses and it's not uncommon for a hero or a fighter to catch me or surpass me on certain bosses if im rolling solo. gunner is not so far above every other class that it's free wins.

    the eq system is baked into the core of this game and isn't going away. on a live stream they even acknowledged that the majority of players play this game for time attack, be it doing the actual time attack quests, time attacking boss eqs, or trying to get maximum runs in a seasonal eq.
    Last edited by Jene-chan; Sep 23, 2018 at 09:57 AM.

  5. #105

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    ZRA in mobbing isn't proper incentive since mobs are spread out and you can only trigger it on so many of them, and either way you can still float above lots of attacks while triggering it.

    All classes can kill spawns, especially multiple Force with illfoie, but Gunner takes cake in affecting other people in pugs with how it has the most AoE and on top of that range so you actually often won't get to touch mobs. Mobs are also the actual hard part of the game, since any single boss can be just ez pez parried/dodge into oblivion, and their hard mechanics rely on making boss fight a mobbing like fight by using multiple damage sources for their attacks (think Anga bits, Mother arms, Deus snake heads, PD parts). Bunch of mobs mixed with up to three bosses/minibosses is the hardest mechanically content in the game just because there are many more damage sources with ability to hit you than anywhere else, and your blocking/dodging ability gets hindered by the limits of your situational awareness. Gunner and actually many more things in the game though simplify it by some way to skip the whole active damage avoidance part and just concentrate on spamming AoE.

    Also lol. No way Braver and Bouncer can match Gunner DPS. Actually even Hero wouldn't be able to at same skill level. In fact if we take Endless clear rate into account Hero did have like nice 18% of all clears but it's also class that's massively overrepresented in the playerbase.

    >actual time attack quests
    Because they put free money there for doing them. Nobody liked TACOs.
    >time attacking boss eqs
    Because they put it there as content. You can't do solo PD without also time attacking it, or any XQ. Even PD had those dumb rankings at the end of who cleared the fastest, so actually if you ever done multiplayer PD you also time attacked it.
    >get maximum runs in a season eq.
    Because there is incentive for it
    Last edited by vantpers; Sep 23, 2018 at 10:12 AM.

  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jene-chan View Post
    fighter players bank on triggering IW if they get hit because the cooldown increase on LBI compounds over time
    It only increases over time if you proc it every time you use LB, otherwise it resets back to the standard cooldown period after a successful natural LB finish where you didn't proc it.

  7. #107

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    you do realize there are communities of players that work on specifically working down the times on time attack quests
    you do realize there are tons of players that solo mpa bosses for time attack
    you do realize that literally the only thing different about gunner lv80 and lv85 is that they're not shit at mobbing
    you do realize that hero executed properly can outperform a solo gunner in most cases since gunner peaks best when with party members (gu gu ra te) whereas hero doesnt require that
    you do realize that on certain bosses, braver/ranger/bouncer can keep pace with (and sometimes exceed) gunner
    you do realize that playing gunner in endless isn't a free instant win for solo one lap (it's easier than doing it on other classes for sure)
    you do realize that other classes have ways of invalidating the danger of a pack of mobs with mini-bosses thrown in
    you do realize that i mentioned zra as an incentive to get close for bosses/mini-bosses aka the things you actually give a damn about

    im assuming you do realize of of this right

  8. #108

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    Chances are low, but I hope we will get kunais as daggers camo from Persona 4 collab
    ID: Maks

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atmius View Post
    It only increases over time if you proc it every time you use LB, otherwise it resets back to the standard cooldown period after a successful natural LB finish where you didn't proc it.
    The skill has tons of issues still, for once 20 seconds just for one fail is quite hilarious regardless, where both Lumiere and half dolls can bail you out TWICE on a single quest, provided you didn't get lucky with IW which is often more than you'll ever need, save for very lengthy content or dragon rematch if you're not too familiar with it/tired/unlucky/ insert excuse for eating the dirt.
    Speaking of Lumiere, LB insurance hilariously rolls BEFORE Lumiere, meaning it completely invalidates the point of the potential.
    Not saying LBI is utter trash, more like it has far too many demerits and places it actually weigh on you more than it helps, so unless you're willing to do a LBI tree for a specific set of quests, it's a pretty shaky skill overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiboune View Post
    Chances are low, but I hope we will get kunais as daggers camo from Persona 4 collab
    I'm praying the gods to get tons of Yosuke related stuff, be it the hairstyle, kunais or headphone. may fashion gods hear my plea xD
    Last edited by Zephyrion; Sep 23, 2018 at 11:00 AM.

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Mits View Post

    Instead, Sega should aim to change the gameplay so that executing everything near-perfectly still yields the best results, but the effectiveness/reward gap between bad use and good use of those tools is not that huge. You can't have an enemy deal an attack for 1500 damage, and then give players the option to simply double-tap and avoid all 1500 points, especially when this double-tap has no opportunity cost and no resource cost. If dodging was replaced with blocking for example, the better players would still actively try to block everything, but now the difference between perfect and average playstyle would be smaller.
    Have you tried playing hu,br,fo? Because stepping actually have an opportunity cost compared to parrying. In fact, gunner and hero getting hit by that amount of damage will end up costing them their multis.

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