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  1. #91
    Garbage-chan Kondibon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isCasted View Post
    "Fluidity" doesn't mean jack shit when it's achieved at the cost of player's agency, the most important aspect of action games. You might as well be saying Easy Automatic is the superior way to play Devil May Cry games, because mashing a single button produces all the stylish combos you'd need. You might as well be saying anime is the superior form of art to videogames, because you can see all of the action by pressing a single "Play" button.

    The whole point of making things more fluid is to make players feel more in control. And I don't mean "control" and in absolute control over the situation, I mean better means of engagement with the game's world. What's the point of having tons of enemies attacking you if, instead of planning your maneuvers around them, you can hold down a PA button to negate all of the incoming damage and be rewarded with a full PP bar? Those enemies might as well not be there. The game might as well not be there.

    Hero might have a huge amount of block and iframes, but to actually do well you have to use riskier moves. Hero's fluidity was not achieved through infinite invulnerability, it was achieved through careful consideration of each animation - how long should each part of a PA take, how should it look, how far it should move you, how does it relate to player's input, when and what kind of freedoms should it give you etc. Quite a few of essential Hunter's PAs, Ranger's attacks and techniques have delays from the moment the player does the input to when the attack begins (for example, Sacred Skewer-T0 throw animation, Launcher's reloads on basic attacks and Divine Launcher T-0, Rafoie's cast animation), creating a huge perception of disconnect between player and the character. A fuck ton of ranged PAs have issues with camera control in TPS mode. Quite a few melee PAs have no reason to move your character away from the enemy, yet they do. This is the kind of thing they should've focused on.

    You've been talking about "coherency" in how classes play? Well, here's what we got. Over End, a PA that was supposed to be the ultimate attack that rendered you vulnerable, was shit due to shit damage. It still does shit damage, but now its sole identifying element is gone, because you can just cancel it at any point. Rodeo Drive T-0 now has a turning radius of 0, but its animation hasn't changed at all; it doesn't lean on turns (you know, like motorcycles and jets), so it looks and feels like shit, despite practicality and decent damage. Same thing's about Asagiri - at its old speed it simply felt right, now it's just uncanny. If they at least gave it a bunch of sparkles at the start of the animation and on turns, or maybe made a camera go to the enemy before the character to give it a more cinematic feel, it'd feel so much more satisfying. DB's weapon-defining throwing blade gimmick is still vastly inferior to Hero's sword, despite adjustments. S-Roll Arts render everything else useless, yet S-Roll itself feels like ass to use with its small range and heavily restricted maneuverability, which is a sin for a class that usually prided for its mobility. If S-Roll allowed you to somewhat freely "slide" around during its execution, like in Bayonetta or Nier Automata, it would be the sickest shit. WLs are still utter ass, as it's been said before, and making them deal more damage only makes players have to deal with their asinine design much more often. Man, I could go on...

    Yes, we did get some actually good changes (had to wait way too long for some of the best ones, like First JA and some skill rings becoming defaults, though), but the other shallow buffs simply overshadow them, as the game ultimately feels way less like an action game and more like a glorified rhythm game with ridiculously long input windows.
    I'm too tired to respond to this all individually, but I will say, I tried to make it clear that S-roll is a problem. SEGA had made bad decisions that led to outliers like S-roll before hero came out, hero didn't cause S-Roll arts to be busted anymore than it caused Shunka, or Maron to be.

    My entire argument was that none of the changes made in response to hero except maybe the raw damage creep were BAD. They were at worst not enough in the right places. Obviously the game balance isn't perfect, but they're moving in the right direction, and as far as I'm concerned things are still better than they used to be.

  2. #92

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    TLDR: SEGA is a small indie company and thus they have to slap band aids onto band aids to fix class problems with fluidity and mobility. Gee guys why are we arguing all of this again.

  3. #93

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    the one thing that a lot of you are forgetting is that the semi-hardcore/hardcore player is not the target audience for the game adjustments. i agree with most of the points about the game rn - i feel power creep has gone too far and a lot of the content in the game has lost tension because it literally can't keep up with the current power, either damage or mobility-wise. we were at that point honestly at the end of ep4.

    thing is, as with most playerbases, the majority of players are not good. gunner seems to be a common target for longtime players to identify as being the best class in the game, but whenever i encounter gunners in random mpas (even under expert), they're really bad. if gunner was so easy and strong, a lot more people would be playing it (ep5 hero launch). the thing is, outside of the initial nerf train at the start of ep5 and fixing some things that were actually broken (marron rail gun), they havent been nerfing anything which makes the game more fun/accessible for newer players.

    i 100% agree that the power creep has gone too far and honestly i dont see them walking any of it back since the general player is still pretty weak and they want to give them more tools to succeed in the game than worrying about delivering challenging content/good balance to the hardcore players.

    i really don't see s roll arts or gunner in general being nerfed. from all the streams where they talk about current content clear rates/compositions, they seem to be fine with gunner being in that list all the time. you also realize gunner is getting a slight buff this coming week in the reduction of zra2 from 10 points to 5 meaning we can possibly spec into more damage off s roll? if anything, i would expect them to try to make all the other classes more bonkers from 85 -> 90 to match the level of power they gave gunner from 80->85.
    Last edited by Jene-chan; Sep 23, 2018 at 07:45 AM.

  4. #94
    Sinless Bromeliad Renvalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oratank View Post
    maybe emil was the original persona before player
    Whoosh. Right over your cranium.

  5. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by isCasted View Post
    The game might as well not be there.
    HYPERBOLE ALERT, HYPERBOLE ALERT!

    Quote Originally Posted by vantpers View Post
    I don't see how classes weren't able to deal with enemies pre EP5. Force in EP4 alone got many mobility buffs. Ranger got what exact fixes in EP5 to help its reliance on Super Armor and HP? Even then when you think of what classes couldn't handle you can only think in solo terms in a multiplayer game, and solo quest ideas of KMR can fuck themselves.
    Well, considering you're telling people to go fuck themselves, I am very sure you will be willing to accept any and all counter arguments and not instantly say "no fuck you, you're wrong, fucking shill"

    Quote Originally Posted by AVO View Post
    TLDR: SEGA is a small indie company and thus they have to slap band aids onto band aids to fix class problems with fluidity and mobility. Gee guys why are we arguing all of this again.
    No they are a company that has no foresight. Why the fuck do people keep calling them a "small indie company" when they are actually just dumb?

  6. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dugs View Post
    HYPERBOLE ALERT, HYPERBOLE ALERT!



    Well, considering you're telling people to go fuck themselves, I am very sure you will be willing to accept any and all counter arguments and not instantly say "no fuck you, you're wrong, fucking shill"



    No they are a company that has no foresight. Why the fuck do people keep calling them a "small indie company" when they are actually just dumb?
    Its a joke. It takes them forever to implement simple features like multi tek and add stuff like aq for harko which prompts the small indie company that can only do this many things at once.

  7. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dugs View Post
    Well, considering you're telling people to go fuck themselves, I am very sure you will be willing to accept any and all counter arguments and not instantly say "no fuck you, you're wrong, fucking shill"
    There is nothing wrong with saying that Kimura can go fuck himself with forcing solo quests in a multiplayer game. Even then all those quests were done by Techer and Ranger with less or more pain. But I guess it's also playerbase that's half at fault here, that we need to gatekeep players out of easy multiplayer quests with harder singeplayer quests because other players not only want to finish their easy quests, but also do it fast so that they can cram 5 runs on 5 different ships in a single EQ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jene-chan View Post
    Thing is, as with most playerbases, the majority of players are not good. gunner seems to be a common target for longtime players to identify as being the best class in the game, but whenever i encounter gunners in random mpas (even under expert), they're really bad. if gunner was so easy and strong, a lot more people would be playing it (ep5 hero launch). the thing is, outside of the initial nerf train at the start of ep5 and fixing some things that were actually broken (marron rail gun), they havent been nerfing anything which makes the game more fun/accessible for newer players.
    But most players that are bad with Gunner would also be bad with other classes. It's further compounded by the fact that Gunner unlocks the OP skill at level 85, which is just bad power jump design, and you need to suddenly switch from Gu/Hu to Gu/Fi to take advantage of it. Similar bad design exists with LBI. Why is it a level 85 skill? Why can't novice Fighters take advantage of safety nets? Even newer or weaker players deserve to be challenged sometimes, I see new players commonly ask when the game is getting challenging too.

    I am also well aware of Sega not teasing to do anything about Gunner, and the SP buff is honestly pretty irrelevant. Level 90 also is confirmed not to contain new skills unless I got misinformed.
    Last edited by vantpers; Sep 23, 2018 at 08:19 AM.

  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meteor Weapon View Post
    Persona probably had hold back whatever Shenanigens PD has, and then Elmir become its agent to reabsorb the falzes in omega and release its true power
    Or maybe it was all a ploy to purge the Falz hosts from [Persona] to become "pure;" maybe the hosts were somehow preventing [PD] from exerting full control over [Persona] due to their consciousnesses still being intact inside him/her.

  9. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by isCasted View Post
    ~snip.
    Not disagreeing with most of this except the Hero deal. Hero has been designed as god mode, on which you just slap a raw multiplier loss for trying to abuse it. I'm definitely not calling that good design. I much prefer a class with actual weaknesses tied to weapon or PAs, and deal with said weakness by actually learning the class,instead of a class you get good at very quickly with only a single "wall" you try to avoid over and over again(I don't consider Hero Time management as an actual barrier for playing it)

    You also only take classes that have major fluidity issues left untouched to compare it to but classes like Force, Fighter and Braver all have a great flow going while not impairing your power in artificial ways. I'd also argue things like Sacred Skewer and tech delays actually add impact rather than remove some. If I'm throwing a damn Gungnir and making meteor falls, I actually "feel" better if there is a delay that suggests strength (even if said action is not that strong in actuality). Something that Hero lacks in my opinion, by achieving actual strength at the cost of variety and quirkiness. It could be a good identity trait if Hero is the only one like that, but with the success it had, I think coming classes will be similar and this will lose its edge

    Quote Originally Posted by vantpers View Post
    But most players that are bad with Gunner would also be bad with other classes. It's further compounded by the fact that Gunner unlocks the OP skill at level 85, which is just bad power jump design, and you need to suddenly switch from Gu/Hu to Gu/Fi to take advantage of it. Similar bad design exists with LBI. Why is it a level 85 skill? Why can't novice Fighters take advantage of safety nets? Even newer or weaker players deserve to be challenged sometimes, I see new players commonly ask when the game is getting challenging too.

    I am also well aware of Sega not teasing to do anything about Gunner, and the SP buff is honestly pretty irrelevant. Level 90 also is confirmed not to contain new skills unless I got misinformed.
    except it's wrong, some players simply don't know that S-roll is superior to other mobbing PAs, therefore probably not skilling it, like people thinking LBI is good, and shooting themselves in the foot for actually skilling it. unlike Hero, there is a big "knowledge" dimension. You can only abuse S-roll if you know how abusable it can be. As to why SEGA is not doing anything, it's because of their usual bad approach a.k.a emergency patch only if something is breaking the game in such a significant way that it ought to disappear a.s.a.p. When all is said and done S-Roll Arts is not particularly broken on its own. it's the amount of return for the effort invested, coupled with the fact it exists as a tool for a class that has fucking chain trigger as a skill. Similarly to SU/GU they are VERY likely to actually look at that stuff when EP6 rolls.
    Last edited by Zephyrion; Sep 23, 2018 at 08:51 AM.

  10. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyrion View Post
    except it's wrong, some players simply don't know that S-roll is superior to other mobbing PAs, therefore probably not skilling it, like people thinking LBI is good, and shooting themselves in the foot for actually skilling it. unlike Hero, there is a big "knowledge" dimension. You can only abuse S-roll if you know how abusable it can be. As to why SEGA is not doing anything, it's because of their usual bad approach a.k.a emergency patch only if something is breaking the game in such a significant way that it ought to disappear a.s.a.p. When all is said and done S-Roll Arts is not particularly broken on its own. it's the amount of return for the effort invested, coupled with the fact it exists as a tool for a class that has fucking chain trigger as a skill. Similarly to SU/GU they are VERY likely to actually look at that stuff when EP6 rolls.
    How is it wrong? I don't see why a player wouldn't take a free skill with no demerit. LBI as far as I know is also often taken in spite of cooldown, just because it's not always that you get instant moon atomizer on you, and not always that solo quest even allows dying, and it's also one of the reason why is shouldn't be available at level 85 when you're good at Fighter and actually worry about your DPS so much. Another part is that knowledge of class shouldn't be taken into account when balancing. It's an action game, you shouldn't reward players for reading someone's guide more than you reward them for using their motor skills. X main switching to Gu/Fi to get Endless title is a plague because the knowledge barrier is easily broken by just copying someone's loadout.

    Also S-roll Arts is very very broken on its own. It has huge vertical hitbox and a class that should stay in the air meaning you never have to endanger yourself during mobbing, headshots hit themselves, the AoE is huge, it's used by spamming a dodge ability with big invincibility window only sometimes broken with sataim cancel, and it does good DPS in spite of all that. Compare it to for example using Sword on Hunter where Nova Strike has worse DPS, worse AoE, small vertical range, guard frames only lasting until you release it then locking you into vulnerable animation, no big vertical range.

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