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  1. #131

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    If things like compound techs/dark blasts/PA/etc were rewards for lvls 75+ instead of SP, keeping skill tree choices limited and more skills were main class, or worked only with their class weapons, would the game be better off?

  2. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilich View Post
    If things like compound techs/dark blasts/PA/etc were rewards for lvls 75+ instead of SP, keeping skill tree choices limited and more skills were main class, or worked only with their class weapons, would the game be better off?
    that would kill the whole reason to subclass, if want the backward, rid of main class only skills so people can go creative play their styles

  3. #133

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    But then several classes will be relegated to being /Hu. Maybe changing those skills to work when using the subclass weapons is better? Then /Fi can use crit strike if you use FI weapons and /Hu gets Automate if you use a Hunter weapon.

  4. #134

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    why just not simply combine all classes in 1 unique class?
    or better, make a custom class where you can pick all the skills from normal classes in 1 unique skill set

    something like CQ if you get the idea
    Last edited by NightlightPro; Nov 10, 2018 at 11:47 AM.

  5. #135

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    Or something like Phantasy Star Portable 2, where your class determines base stats, which skills you unlock and which weapons your are more predisposed to, but you can make any class use any weapon or skill if you want.

  6. #136
    Hardcore Casual Dark Mits's Avatar
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    The idea of locking skills as "Main class" only would kill subclassing is not entirely true. I mean, the existence of a meta already kills subclasses. There is no such thing as being creative in one's build; there's only being optimal or being a scrub to exaggerate slightly.

    I wouldn't put more skills behind "Main class" requirements, but I would actually redesign classes to remove bloat, and to have a sort of subclass themselves through the stance system. For example:
    i) HUnter at the top has the easy and straightforward HP Boost only, with a maximum of 10 skill points where it scales so that 10/10 reaches the same HP value as getting all of current HP Boost I, II and III.
    ii) To the right are all Step related skills, Just Reversal and Weapon Gear skills.
    iii) Below them and unlocking at level 10 (or whenever it would feel appropriate), are the 2 Stance Skills: Fury Stance and Guard Stance
    iv) All remaining defensive/tanking skills are below Guard Stance (Massive Hunter, Iron Will, Guard and Just Guard, War Cry, Charge Parry, Just Guard PP Gain etc.), and they all have a hard requirement of 10/10 in Guard Stance.
    v) All remaining offensive skills are below Fury Stance (S-Atk, Just Counter), and they all have a hard requirement of 10/10 in Fury Stance.
    vi) Stance skills are consolidated into the stance itself, similar to HP Boost above. For example Fury Stance at 10/10 gives whatever it currently gives, + Fury Stance 1 10/10 + Fury Stance 2 10/10.
    vii) Of couse that would make Fury Stance kind of empty, so Sega would have to invent new skills to make it more interesting. Stuff like more PP regen per autoattack, or even PP Up skills, bonus damage if the player remains in combat for a fixed time, etc.

    -=EDIT=- Ideally the entirety of the tree, and I mean picking up and maxxing every single skill would require slightly more than the available pool of skillpoints. So if we have 104 skill points at lvl90, maxxing everything should require 110.
    -=END EDIT=-

    Player would be able to change stances at will, but loses all passive bonuses and active abilities that do not belong to it. So switching from Guard Stance to Fury Stance would make the player lose access to Massive Hunter, Iron Will and all damage reduction multipliers of Guard Stance. Returning to Guard Stance would re-enable them, and conversely the player would lose all passive and active bonuses of Fury Stance.

    Similarly to the other classes, except Sega would have to think of stances for every class (FI already has 2, RA could have a stance for stationary damage and another for being on the move, GU could have stances for fighting bosses or trash, FO a stance for burst damage and a stance for sustain damage, TE a stance for enhancing auto-attacks and a stance for pure supporting, BR already has 2, BO already has 2, and SU a stance for pet fighting and a stance for enhancing mag [higher bonuses, more damage, more protection etc] ).

    The idea is that these stances would bring bonuses that are not weapon or class specific, and therefore being subclass stances they can help every other class. Of course Sega would have to invent a ****-ton of new skills to add to make the stances "balanced". And this would be a nightmare, since metas would again exist.
    Last edited by Dark Mits; Nov 10, 2018 at 12:48 PM.

  7. #137

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    Not sure if making skills turn off if you are out of the required stance is a good idea, It makes the skill tree too linear, I think.

  8. #138

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    If there is one thing I'd want Sega to do is to not introduce more stances.

    Why give Ra a stance for on the go damage and standing still damage, which you have to toggle manually, when Ra already has such system active passively. It'd just make the class more clunky. Te already sorta had a Normal Attack and Support Stance, it was called Wand Lovers and Territory Burst, yes Territory Burst was an active ability at one point and Wand lovers turned your PP into 0, making you unable to use Techs. It sucked.

    Sega was already running out of Ideas with stances when they did Braver and Bouncer. Doing more stances is the last thing we need right now.

  9. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by XrosBlader821 View Post
    If there is one thing I'd want Sega to do is to not introduce more stances.

    Why give Ra a stance for on the go damage and standing still damage, which you have to toggle manually, when Ra already has such system active passively. It'd just make the class more clunky. Te already sorta had a Normal Attack and Support Stance, it was called Wand Lovers and Territory Burst, yes Territory Burst was an active ability at one point and Wand lovers turned your PP into 0, making you unable to use Techs. It sucked.

    Sega was already running out of Ideas with stances when they did Braver and Bouncer. Doing more stances is the last thing we need right now.
    It would also go against the differentiation between attack types
    Melee classes : Stances
    Ranged classes : stacking conditional multipliers
    Tech : Element matching

    BO has stances+ ele matching while BR has stances + Bow actives and skills, and SU is still defaulted as a tech class due to having the element matching aspect.

  10. #140
    Hardcore Casual Dark Mits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilich View Post
    Not sure if making skills turn off if you are out of the required stance is a good idea, It makes the skill tree too linear, I think.
    It does, and that's something I support for the early parts of a class. The idea of linearity is that a levelling player, who is still learning the ropes will not be facing a convoluted mess that doesn't indicate what they should be getting first. Later on they can get the skills they think are best at the order they like. My above suggestion is linear until 10/10 in the Stance skill (therefore until lvl20 or so).

    Quote Originally Posted by XrosBlader821 View Post
    It'd just make the class more clunky.
    You are reading my suggestion in the wrong mindset. I am not saying that not enabling a stance entirely prohibits you from being able to perform tasks. I am saying that not enabling a stance just gives you lower effectiveness than the absolute optimal. This difference does not have to be something huge like 1000%; it can be something low like 50%. Let's bring Mother for example:

    - HUnter: I will be Guard Stance during hand phase (and maybe last 30%) because high damage is not that important right now, but being able to absorb damage. I will be Fury Stance when the boss is vulnerable because there is no damage going on anyway. I can remain Fury Stance during the whole fight but I have to accept the risk that I may be receiving more damage if I am not careful with dodging.
    - FIghter: I will be Brave Stance when the boss is vulnerable and in last phase, and Wise Stance when fighting its arms. I can be Brave Stance during the whole fight unless I am not that good in positioning myself during hand phase (me as Dark Mits for example have a hard time hitting hands from the front).
    - RAnger: I will be Stand Still Stance during vulnerable and Mobile Stance during the rest of the fight. I can be Stand Still Stance during the whole fight, but yeah, I probably have to move a lot.
    - GUnner: I will be Boss Stance during vulnerable and Trash stance during hands (maybe). I can be Boss Stance during the whole fight but maybe I deal more overall damage with Trash stance during hand phase.
    - FOrce: I will be Burst Stance during vulnerable and Sustain stance during hands. I can be Burst Stance during the whole fight but maybe I miss my attacks if the hands change position or go high up in the air.
    - TEcher: I will be Damage Stance when I don't need to buff and Support Stance when I need to. I can be Damage Stance during the whole fight but it is better for the whole group overall if I sacrifice a bit of damage for a few seconds to increase everyone else's performance for a moderate duration.
    - BRaver: I will be Weak Stance when vulnerable and Average Stance during hands. I can be Weak Stance during hand phase, but I probably will be dealing more damage in Average Stance there.
    - BOuncer: I probably will be Element Stance during the whole fight because I don't think there are breakable stuff here (don't kill me if there are and I don't know them)
    - SUmmoner: I will be Pet Stance if I use a Takt and Mag Stance if I am not.
    - HeRo: Rez plz.

    We already have a sort of "stance" system with the various skills. Massive Hunter is not active all the time, and we select to use it when we expect that we will need it. It is not clunkiness that we don't have 100% uptime on it, nor do we use it as soon as it gets off cd. Similarily, Photon Flare is selected when we expect a burst phase without interruptions, and we don't always have it on cd. I agree that the examples I thought above are probably not the most amazing examples of how to make the game more interesting, but the idea is that there should be more "checks" on when a player is making good decisions, and at the same time we should not be able to have access to everything with 0 opportunity cost. The game should be more than just left and right clicking.
    Last edited by Dark Mits; Nov 10, 2018 at 02:58 PM.

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