26º PSO2 STATION!

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

For me, with current balance, they are at best stay as weapon

That can create another EPD/Atra rod situation; where we look at weapons that SEGA hypes up that should have been better, but players have their ballsacks tied to having to compensate for bad design decisions with older weapons that should have been weaker. You can't guarantee these effects will be replicated on new weapons a year or more from now either.

Not only that, SEGA loves giving us carrots to chase. If the remedy to a crippling design flaw is 12+ months old, but is so powerful that it's still worth using over everything else, how am I supposed to care, or be excited for anything new?

Tying our class 'fixes' to weapons that should be replaceable is a terrible idea.

I personally not sure on why these kind of disadvantages should be balanced permanently

Also, there's a distinction between a 'disadvantage' and a bad design choice.
-Forces and Bravers having lower defenses and HP than a Hunter is a disadvantage.
-Tying forces to a very specific weapon potential due to ele convert was a bad design choice.
Hero is on the same path as long as 1/3rd of their damage is on one skill which is lost by taking 20% of HP as damage, and only comes back by not getting hit again for up to a minute, and the only thing that alleviates this consistently is one specific type of weapon potential.
>punishment; severe
>downtime; too long
>methods to recover outside of waiting/hero time; almost non-existant

If certain mistakes aren't fixed permanently on the skill tree when possible, classes could be permanently tied to 1-2 specific weapons/potentials out of dozens. To disagree is basically saying the element conversion change should be undone.

[XrosBlader821]

What I'm trying to say is, I personally not sure on why these kind of disadvantages should be balanced permanently (same like mainjump's reply about Hero Boost, wishing its penalty to be hugely nerfed by more than 50% than it already is). For me, with current balance, they are at best stay as weapon or other means, like rings. If they want to add more, they can, say a damage-reducing ring (with whatever condition required) then let the player choose to either use that or tech parry, or attach both. More fun that way I think. They even buffed an ice tech (nabarta 0? i forgot) that now could guard as well. I'd say it's better that way, a more active, action-kind of option, as tactical reward. If you just want to raise just a little def, then why not affix them? hahah. I just feel the current balance is just ok. Well I may be wrong, let's see what sega will do.

Being one/two shot by anything relevant in the game while other classes can eat up multiple hits before they even have to worry isn't just a "disadvantage" and in content that fails the Quest if you die too often it s just unnecessary pressure on the player because the "just dodge lul" excuse only worked back when the content wasn't so hyper aggressive as it became since implementation of UQ's.

This isn't just my opinion either. Back in may the class satisfaction survey resulted in 50% Force players being very dissatisfied & dissatisfied, 30% being neutral towards the class and only 20% liking and really liking it. Force not only has no access to Iron Will but it's also a combination of two tech classes meaning it has by far the lowest defense stats in the game. And while most complaints since that survey got adressed over the time, the inability to survive hits still remains.

About Hero, I really think that a simple skill like "Hero counter adds 10% Hero boost Damage" and maybe a gunner like "L/Hero Boost Keep" Ring would be enough. It wouldn't completely eliminate the issue but it'd make it so that random mini-attacks don't kill your DPS by accident and if they do you can still regain that DPS by skillful play.

And while we're at the topic of 1 weapon metas, Lavis attack speed should be applied to all wands. It's stupid how unplayable Te feels like without it.

[ArcaneTechs]

>New S4 series gets released
>it tops every other weapons series out
>Get Atra Rod S4
>Transfer to new S4 Rod
>ez pz power creep

done, i solved the Rod power creep crisis, also do this to Talis too EZ

[XrosBlader821]

>New S4 series gets released
>it tops every other weapons series out
>Get Atra Rod S4
>Transfer to new S4 Rod
>ez pz power creep

done, i solved the Rod power creep crisis, also do this to Talis too EZ

Atra still can't be used as a material during affixing.

Edit: Nvm forgot S-Ability transfer is a thing.

[ArcaneTechs]

Atra still can't be used as a material during affixing.

every weapon that offers an SSA at +35 is an infinite dispenser, so just get the rod and transfer it to the new S4 Rod granted you have an extra stone or not using your current Atra wep for anything too important

edit: you caught your mistake when i finished posting

[SteveCZ]

That can create another EPD/Atra rod situation; where we look at weapons that SEGA hypes up that should have been better, but players have their ballsacks tied to having to compensate for bad design decisions with older weapons that should have been weaker. You can't guarantee these effects will be replicated on new weapons a year or more from now either.

Not only that, SEGA loves giving us carrots to chase. If the remedy to a crippling design flaw is 12+ months old, but is so powerful that it's still worth using over everything else, how am I supposed to care, or be excited for anything new?

Tying our class 'fixes' to weapons that should be replaceable is a terrible idea.

Also, there's a distinction between a 'disadvantage' and a bad design choice.
-Forces and Bravers having lower defenses and HP than a Hunter is a disadvantage.
-Tying forces to a very specific weapon potential due to ele convert was a bad design choice.
Hero is on the same path as long as 1/3rd of their damage is on one skill which is lost by taking 20% of HP as damage, and only comes back by not getting hit again for up to a minute, and the only thing that alleviates this consistently is one specific type of weapon potential.
>punishment; severe
>downtime; too long
>methods to recover outside of waiting/hero time; almost non-existant

If certain mistakes aren't fixed permanently on the skill tree when possible, classes could be permanently tied to 1-2 specific weapons/potentials out of dozens. To disagree is basically saying the element conversion change should be undone.

Let me just make this clear to you since whether it is right or wrong in this case is completely vague. I respect your opinion, but see it this way: in my case, Hero Boost penalty is not a big deal to me, but it's a big deal to you. With that said, for you, of course it's the tree problem, and I understand that. For me, it's not a problem, and therefore in my view such change that you wish would only make things worse. For example, if Hero is on max power, then it should have a slight advantage over some classes in certain situation and place, say like mobbing. If you make it less severe, then Hero is way too good with barely any disadvantage at all. It's Hero Star online all over again. So, okay, say you want to reduce Hero Boost penalty, but it needs something in return. One of them for example is making Hero at max power more or less the same as other classes, but that makes no point of having Hero Boost at all when it doesn't act like one. So as much as I want it as you, I don't find the perfect balance of it. Help me on that part.

If they want to buff, buff the counter damage, and/or make the counter damage untied to Hero Boost penalty. Make counter more relevant, reduce the Hero Boost penalty by every counter you make. With that, you still get your penalty, but your effort as a Hero that counters makes it more rewarding. It also makes Hero reliable on certain situation, even though not all situations cause you can't always counter when there's nothing to counter. I'd love that, but hey, that's just my opinion. As for the tree... I honestly don't see much for now, and so are the other trees, I guess, for now.

Imo, your request regarding to Hero Boost, as a weapon could be great (with condition of course). Just like Demonia to Hero Boost, Quelle Scarlette to weapon action, and more. Are they still better now? Not really. And that's fine to me. I had never been so excited to farm them more than getting the generic, progressive series weapons if you ask me. Even if SEGA decided that the penalty should occur on, say, 40% - 60% hit of HP within the time, I'd still be happy for it as a weapon potential more than having it permanent on the tree.

As for Element Conversion, I'm pretty sure I said "with current balance", and I don't see why if I have to agree with it that means I have to agree with all your expected changes to other classes (or other mechanics that Force has). If you want to talk about Element Conversion in the past then I'd probably agree with you. It's not like I'm saying "oh wow the tree is 100% perfect and so from now on, everything has to be on weapons (or other mechanics than the tree)!". Definitely too ideal in such imperfect world of gaming. There will be mistakes on the tree, but not right now, at least for me, cause they will (and should!) add more contents to make it no longer relevant to the current time. Just like Hero slapped every single class and make them completely "basic" when they barely have anything wrong in the first place.

Back to Hero Boost. The penalty won't be given if the class is used properly, in proper place. You will be hit, yes, you will get hit a certain time in some situation especially mobbing, but if some people have to get hit constantly that also become constantly weak in terms of damage, it's not the tree's fault, especially if you're walking in a wrong place with 900 - 1100 HP.

[Zephyrion]

I mean I touched upon this on Hero thread but my main gripe about Hero boost is that it doesn't do any differentiation between fuck ups. Now I wouldn't mind if Hero Boost was only one of many multipliers, as it is for GU's high time, but it's not. I quite dislike the fact that even with a decent HP pool, getting hit for 300, which can be any good mob's offscreen swiping at you results in the exact same loss as actually taking a big hit. Now don't get me wrong I still need to be penalized for both scenarios but to a different extent imo. I'd love if Hero boost % loss was actually tied to the damage you just received, like 20% for hitting the threshold, then you lose more and more of the remaining 40% the harder you got hit.

About Demonia, the issue is that it's literally a must-have. even as a boost battery in case you opted for another weapon. Now we have King crest shop so it's not too bad, but Demonia has been a really rare weapon for like half a year, and then you could have been unlucky with Enchanted Forest and have to wait a whole year for a weapon that is literally a game-changer for your class. It's far steeper than just losing some % because you don't have the latest stat stick, it literally cripples you down. Now, Demonia is not as bad as EPD/Atra used to be, or Lavis still is, since you could still somewhat play Hero without it, but it's still a case of a potential that is "too strong". recovering Hero Boost by countering would have made it a far better pot than just "gratz you got Demonia, so now you can be a cool waiting-for-30s kid instead of a waiting-for-60s" one

Being one/two shot by anything relevant in the game while other classes can eat up multiple hits before they even have to worry isn't just a "disadvantage" and in content that fails the Quest if you die too often it s just unnecessary pressure on the player because the "just dodge lul" excuse only worked back when the content wasn't so hyper aggressive as it became since implementation of UQ's.

I'll be fully honest though, I don't think Force doesn't need any survivability buff. Remember, with all the changes the class got, you're not tied to having 200PP because the class can now easily sustain most of the time even with only PP restorate standing buff, which mean for the first time in its history, you can actually invest into HP affixes as Force. I tried different setups and tbh, as long as your PP pool covers Ilbarta chains and Ra zandia, (so 160-180PP) you're more than fine. I can understand that changing your units just because of that is silly, but hey, you gotta go through that shit at some point.

I also think it's an identity trait of the class that is dangerous to touch because it can lead to bad things. Look at LB insurance, and despite the layers of penalties it gives you (extra CD on LB, have to manually recover from 1 HP within 5 seconds, extra penalty for effing up several times in a row), it's still a very strong class skill that makes any rematch or solo XQ a complete joke. FO being actually stupidly powerful (ok not GU tiers of stupid but you get me) is only hindered by the fact it cannot tank hits that well, so if they're going to buff that, I hope they do it veeeery carefully.

All of this is only how I feel tho, you're all free to think otherwise

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

One of them for example is making Hero at max power more or less the same as other classes, but that makes no point of having Hero Boost at all when it doesn't act like one. So as much as I want it as you, I don't find the perfect balance of it. Help me on that part.

... that's already the case in a number of places... which is entirely why I have a problem with Hero boost as is.

Hero at max power hero boost does about as much damage as a braver with kazami already. I have both of these things to know.

Hero boost is needed at max power to match another class that doesn't have such an insane penalty for getting hit.

Hero boost stopped feeling like a bonus when SEGA brought more classes up. So yes, in a way you're almost right; there's almost "no point of having Hero Boost at all when it doesn't act like one" when other classes are almost capable of matching Hr output with it. Your hypothetical is already a thing, except all of the penalties are still there. This is why I say the penalties/conditions/delay on it should be seriously addressed in one or more ways.

-Br/Hu with kazami + Tech arts JA ring: ~77k sakura 0 (my kazami has placholder affixes. Just +35 to ATK).
-Hr at max hero boost + perfect keeper ring: ~72kish vapor bullet if I haven't been hit for the past 30 seconds thanks only to demonia (+185 ATK to demonia. If it was +35ed, it would deal ~3% more damage). I lose ~24k of that damage for a while after getting hit.

Hero boost doesn't feel like a boost here. It feels like an arbitrary, and ridiculous penalty that a number of other classes don't have while still being able to accomplish a similar output anyway. Now if kazami braver is some sort of OP outlier that's doing leagues better than other classes, do tell me, but I very much doubt that's the case.

[SteveCZ]

About Demonia, the issue is that it's literally a must-have. even as a boost battery in case you opted for another weapon. Now we have King crest shop so it's not too bad, but Demonia has been a really rare weapon for like half a year, and then you could have been unlucky with Enchanted Forest and have to wait a whole year for a weapon that is literally a game-changer for your class. It's far steeper than just losing some % because you don't have the latest stat stick, it literally cripples you down. Now, Demonia is not as bad as EPD/Atra used to be, or Lavis still is, since you could still somewhat play Hero without it, but it's still a case of a potential that is "too strong". recovering Hero Boost by countering would have made it a far better pot than just "gratz you got Demonia, so now you can be a cool waiting-for-30s kid instead of a waiting-for-60s" one

RDR sucks, but I think that's unrelated to the weapon itself though. They could've just make this King (and Conqueror) crest in the first place and make the meta weapons a guaranteed goal. I don't see a problem with Demonia especially when there's a slightly stronger weapon and make Demonia as a battery, and I am also ok with what you said that counter can also be as weapon pot. Demonia-NT maybe!?

I'll be fully honest though, I don't think Force doesn't need any survivability buff. Remember, with all the changes the class got, you're not tied to having 200PP because the class can now easily sustain most of the time even with only PP restorate standing buff, which mean for the first time in its history, you can actually invest into HP affixes as Force. I tried different setups and tbh, as long as your PP pool covers Ilbarta chains and Ra zandia, (so 160-180PP) you're more than fine. I can understand that changing your units just because of that is silly, but hey, you gotta go through that shit at some point.

All of this is only how I feel tho, you're all free to think otherwise

Agree.

... that's already the case in a number of places... which is entirely why I have a problem with Hero boost as is.

Hero at max power hero boost does about as much damage as a braver with kazami already. I have both of these things to know.

Hero boost is needed at max power to match another class that doesn't have such an insane penalty for getting hit.

Hero boost stopped feeling like a bonus when SEGA brought more classes up. So yes, in a way you're almost right; there's almost "no point of having Hero Boost at all when it doesn't act like one" when other classes are almost capable of matching Hr output with it. Your hypothetical is already a thing, except all of the penalties are still there. This is why I say the penalties/conditions/delay on it should be seriously addressed in one or more ways.

-Br/Hu with kazami + Tech arts JA ring: ~77k sakura 0 (my kazami has placholder affixes. Just +35 to ATK).
-Hr at max hero boost + perfect keeper ring: ~72kish vapor bullet if I haven't been hit for the past 30 seconds thanks only to demonia (+185 ATK to demonia. If it was +35ed, it would deal ~3% more damage). I lose ~24k of that damage for a while after getting hit.

Hero boost doesn't feel like a boost here. It feels like an arbitrary, and ridiculous penalty that a number of other classes don't have while still being able to accomplish a similar output anyway. Now if kazami braver is some sort of OP outlier that's doing leagues better than other classes, do tell me, but I very much doubt that's the case.

In that br kazami case, yes Hero Boost almost doesn't act like one then. Ok, so let's say I agree it's a tree problem..
I still insist about the penalty cause it's almost the only disadvantage it has, unless there's something better to offer (or more) than that. Reducing the dmg penalty at whatever amount is no point as it doesn't act like one in the first place. Reducing the time ain't good either cause it's as the same as just reducing the dmg penalty. Buffing the Hero Boost max power damage isn't good either..

Well, I think what Zeph offered isn't that bad either. You still got your power reduced to the same amount of dmg penalty, but through multiple layers of attacks instead of harshly straight to that amount. Soo... if the Player is indeed bad enough, it can be seen by how he/she keeps getting hit that it racks up to the most of the penalty in such a short time (such as getting combo'd =) ). But, if you play good enough, at best got hit once in a while, you're still at a mercy, say probably 5 - 10 seconds away from the max power. I think I can agree with that.

[Maninbluejumpsuit]

In that br kazami case, yes Hero Boost almost doesn't act like one then. Ok, so let's say I agree it's a tree problem..
I still insist about the penalty cause it's almost the only disadvantage it has, unless there's something better to offer (or more) than that. Reducing the dmg penalty at whatever amount is no point as it doesn't act like one in the first place. Reducing the time ain't good either cause it's as the same as just reducing the dmg penalty. Buffing the Hero Boost max power damage isn't good either..

I'd never suggest putting more max power on Hero boost. That's 90% of my gripe already.
Reducing the amount of power on hero boost would actually change perception of it if you think about it.

Dropping it from 60% to 20%, and moving the damage to passive weapon bonuses will make the impression go from:

"Damn, I just lost ~33% of my damage for getting hit" since that's FAR easier to notice
to
"I gained ~10% damage for not getting hit. If I lose it, oh well"
The latter feels more like a bonus since the loss isn't nearly as easy to feel, and demonia would be far less compelling to need.

That alone would satisfy me, but I would still welcome a skill to build it back up after getting hit by dodging attacks to make it an interesting gameplay mechanic rather than 'just wait for it'.