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  1. #121
    Hardcore Casual Dark Mits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kondibon View Post
    As a Su player "lol".
    You have to clarify this for me. I guess you mean that as Su your stats are overshotting mine by a large gap? Which would be in your benefit

    Quote Originally Posted by Kondibon View Post
    The game HAS places where that kind of thing can be applied, and it's not normal EQs.
    Disagree. The game, and any game in general, should have mechanics that are possible to fail in all content that isn't labeled "Practice".

    Quote Originally Posted by Kondibon View Post
    If you think the difference between playing well and not is only 10 seconds you must be out of your mind.
    It was a rough estimate, but let's think of it this way. 8 players in the field require 8mins to clear the quest assuming everyone plays their best. Someone dies and they are unable to perform for 10-15 seconds until someone else rezzes them. Then they die a second time, and then they die a third time. That's 45seconds of them not contributing, or in other words 435/480 = 90,6% upkeep. At the same time, 3 other players also spend 10 seconds each to stop their damage actions, so that they run and rez the dead player, and then run back to the enemies. The upkeep of those is 470/480 = 97,9%.

    So we can consider that the group now has 4 players with 100% upkeep, 3 player with 98% upkeep (the ones who stop to rez) and 1 player with 90% upkeep (the player who dies). So the total group performance is at around 98%, or about 2% slower. 2% of 8mins is 7 seconds. This does not take into account downtime between waves which can be used to rez players without performance hit, as well as performance hit due to losing buffs. But I think that on average, assuming that the above numbers are realistic, then having 3 deaths in a quest just slows it down by about 10seconds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kondibon View Post
    10 seconds is usually enough to make or break getting another run in anyway. That said, who cares whether or not other players want to improve in casual content in a casual game? Just look at expert matching. So many people just give up on it. What makes you think tying rewards to number of deaths is going to make those people want to improve? Anyone who is dying enough to exhaust everyone's resources probably won't care either way.
    Yes, it makes or breaks getting another run. And that's a good thing, it gives players an incentive to want to strive for better performance.

    The players who care to improve are exactly those who care to improve. What I mean is that if I want better results, I will have to see what I am doing wrong, what I can change, what I can fix, what of those changes and fixes is within my time and currency budget etc. This also applies for Expert. Those who gave up, and this includes me, are those who see that the amount of effort and changes required to overcome the obstacle are too great to be a quick and easy fix.

    Tying rewards to player performance may not make players want to improve, but it will make some of them. And that's a win for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kondibon View Post
    People will AFK for rewards regardless of how death affects them, but I've never even really seen someone do literally nothing.
    I have entered Ultra Fields a total of 4 times since they were implemented. In 3 of those there was an afk person staying at a distance from the group, but strangely enough moved to the boss remains once it was cleared. It might have been someone's alt account, who took advantage of the guruguru design to get twice as many rewards for no additional effort, who knows. I wouldn't be surprised.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kondibon View Post
    EDIT: I think a better way to put what I'm trying to say is that the reward for good play in PSO2 has been overachieving, not avoiding large punishment failure for a long time. In a casual game, rewarding people for doing well is better than punishing people for doing poorly because it gives hardcore players something to strive for, while making sure the game is fun for casual players. It's fine if death is a slap on the wrist that only costs time, in a game where doing well means you want to waste as little time as possible. I've seen the difference in drops from getting 2-1 vs 2-2 alone. Heck, even in the 2-1 runs where people break all the turrets and try to break the flybys I get considerably more drops than my runs where people don't. The point system in the new EQ is perfect for that.
    Yes, and I agree on that. The key is to determine what is extra rewarding vs what is punishment. For example, I mentioned above that S gives 100%, A gives 75% and B gives 50%. What if I said that S gives 200%, A gives 150% and B gives 100%? And I echo your observation regarding 2-1 vs 2-2 runs, because I have had similar happen to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kondibon View Post
    Heck, if you really want to tie player deaths to it, then losing personal points would probably make more sense, but that's effectively the same as what you said, so eh.
    Yes. I prefer ranking per player than per mpa. Which is why I like the grading system in the Ultra Fields. And the good thing is that the reward isn't exactly game breaking either; 1st takes 3 xcubes, 2nd and 3rd take 2 xcubes, 4th and below get 1 xcube. You could say that the rewards are split 100% - 66% - 33% or 300% - 200% - 100%, but in the end they are a small extra reward for players who actually try to perform what is asked of them.
    Last edited by Dark Mits; Jun 17, 2019 at 03:19 PM.

  2. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Mits View Post
    You have to clarify this for me. I guess you mean that as Su your stats are overshotting mine by a large gap? Which would be in your benefit
    SU players are immortal as long as their pet doesn't die and even if it dies you can swap fast enough to still be alive yourself, but if I was a SU player in Armada I'd be getting my Maron Magnum ready every fly-by
    Cast - Gt 50, Fg 20, Gm 25
    PSO2 NGS
    Quote Originally Posted by the_importer_ View Post
    Tell you what mate, I'll decide when my topic goes into the QQ post or when it needs to be it's own thing, and you can do the same for yours. Alright, cool. Cheers

  3. #123

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    inb4 new UH TD + death limits

  4. #124

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    As someone who generally asks for more challenging content, I mostly do it because it drives up value of self-expression, because extra constraints make you move involved in the process of clearing the challenge. That said, fairness is highly important for motivation. I'll be far more likely to improve myself if I am able to experiment and take extra risks, knowing that punisment for my mistakes will be predictable and I won't be screwed over by randomness or laziness of other people at mooning me.

    Good god, it takes me back to DF Loser days when he was actually hard, when I gave a shit about gearing the best I could and complained about pug performance. I would throw moons at any given opportunity, rush my damage output more than anyone (because late block gaijin hour pugs), only to end up lying on the floor at the last 15 seconds of the fight and lose all EXP and drops because no one gave a shit about reviving me. It's a great thing that nowadays it's a non-issue in Expert pugs, but non-Expert players that actually have the potential to become Experts don't deserve to be held back by others. Autorevive is as good as it gets for that purpose with the current system.

  5. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by isCasted View Post
    As someone who generally asks for more challenging content, I mostly do it because it drives up value of self-expression, because extra constraints make you move involved in the process of clearing the challenge. That said, fairness is highly important for motivation. I'll be far more likely to improve myself if I am able to experiment and take extra risks, knowing that punisment for my mistakes will be predictable and I won't be screwed over by randomness or laziness of other people at mooning me.

    Good god, it takes me back to DF Loser days when he was actually hard, when I gave a shit about gearing the best I could and complained about pug performance. I would throw moons at any given opportunity, rush my damage output more than anyone (because late block gaijin hour pugs), only to end up lying on the floor at the last 15 seconds of the fight and lose all EXP and drops because no one gave a shit about reviving me. It's a great thing that nowadays it's a non-issue in Expert pugs, but non-Expert players that actually have the potential to become Experts don't deserve to be held back by others. Autorevive is as good as it gets for that purpose with the current system.
    they dont have to feel the need to be held back anymore if they just clear the Expert Req
    Cast - Gt 50, Fg 20, Gm 25
    PSO2 NGS
    Quote Originally Posted by the_importer_ View Post
    Tell you what mate, I'll decide when my topic goes into the QQ post or when it needs to be it's own thing, and you can do the same for yours. Alright, cool. Cheers

  6. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Mits View Post
    I wasn't clear: 2.3k DEF + 1.7k HP assumes Deband Drink for RDR buff and TEcher present. Pre-buff states are lower (1,8K DEF + 1,4k HP). I don't think it's an unreasonably defensive build, in fact I get just 55 DEF and 270HP from affixes, which is extremely easy to reach with basic ones that drop around. I'd say the only reason to not be able to reach that, is to have specifically affixed for full damage, which is what we usually call "glass cannon". Having L-Party Toughness and permanent Jerky isn't unreasonable as well.
    Now that you break it down i can say these are definitely not non-expert stats. Non expert means people are still gearing up and levelling classes and Techer remains one of the least popular classes based on class polls.

    55 Def and 270 HP across 3 units is at least 4 basic affixes per unit on what looks like a Lightstream, Izane or Zeinesis set. These are farmed sets with planned out affixes. It's not something i realistically expect to see on players rocking 3x Stella Wall - and there are quite a few of those!

    The purpose of these Armada/Yamato type quests are to help players gear up. The 15⭐s from this quest are pretty mediocre but they come pre-grinded and don't need a long assembly or upgrade path. I really wouldn't slow down the rate people get badges at all. It's welfare gear and if people put in the time they should get it.

    There's a place for hardcore MLG content but Armada isn't the right kind of quest for it.

  7. #127
    Legendary One Poyonche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NightlightPro View Post
    inb4 new UH TD + death limits
    UH TD with one tower and all waves are "Warning" with "+60% Atk and HP" and at every death you have a -50% Rare Drop malus.
    Quote Originally Posted by GHNeko View Post
    oh boy cant wait for this class to be op on release and for everyone and their mom to run only this class for a week and failing all the EQs.

  8. #128
    Garbage-chan Kondibon's Avatar
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    The main thing I'll say is that if it wasn't so easy to have a lame cheap death in PSO2, or the content in question was built around doing organized groups on your own time I'd agree that the death penalty should be stricter. This isn't DMC or some single player game with standard level based progression though, it's a game where you're grinding the same quest multiple times a week, or even multiple times a day, for months. Expecting people to be at their 100% the entire time is dumb. I don't think anyone deserves to lose out on some of their drops in a regular quest because they happened to not be paying complete attention for a moment.

    Also, as it is right now, even if you went along with the idea of rank affecting things, no one is going to lose ranks anyway unless people outright ignore them, which is what the 5 second revive is for.
    So sure, slap a point penalty on getting less than an S-rank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kril View Post
    SU players are immortal as long as their pet doesn't die and even if it dies you can swap fast enough to still be alive yourself, but if I was a SU player in Armada I'd be getting my Maron Magnum ready every fly-by
    I don't roll with multiple marons anymore so I can't do it every flyby. But yes I was joking about Su being immortal with "glass cannon" gear. Most of my deaths with Su in Armada happen because I forget the weapon palette swap hotkeys don't work during the trial announcement for the bosses at the end of sectors 1 and 2, so I throw melon or marron and can't switch to synchro before I get grazed by something with 5 hp left.
    Last edited by Kondibon; Jun 17, 2019 at 04:41 PM.

  9. #129
    Hardcore Casual Dark Mits's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selphea View Post
    Now that you break it down i can say these are definitely not non-expert stats. Non expert means people are still gearing up and levelling classes and Techer remains one of the least popular classes based on class polls.
    These stats are exactly the following:
    Weapon: Ability III - 15 DEF
    Rear: Historia Soul + Omega Reverie + Stamina III = 25 DEF + 100 HP
    Arm: Ares the Soul + Ability III = 15 DEF + 35 HP
    Leg: Ares the Soul + Double Reverie + Stamina III = 135 HP

    With the exception of Ares, which I think I made with Historia and some random boss soul, everything else was just slapped from common drops.

    -=Pre post edit=-
    I just checked those Stellar Walls. They give combined 45DEF + 255HP. Excluding my weapon, that's 5DEF more and 15HP less than what I posted. Of course, the units themselves lack in DEF and HP compared to Austere + Lightstream.

    Also, non-expert is a different discussion. Expert or non-expert is not a division based on stats, though they can affect to a minor degree; it's a division on skill and mindset.

  10. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kondibon View Post
    I don't roll with multiple marons anymore so I can't do it every flyby. But yes I was joking about Su being immortal with "glass cannon" gear. Most of my deaths with Su in Armada happen because I forget the weapon palette swap hotkeys don't work during the trial announcement for the bosses at the end of sectors 1 and 2, so I throw melon or marron and can't switch to synchro before I get grazed by something with 5 hp left.
    i was meme'ing about maron revolver in Armada, not that having a couple for Sector 1/2 isnt a bad idea for ships
    Cast - Gt 50, Fg 20, Gm 25
    PSO2 NGS
    Quote Originally Posted by the_importer_ View Post
    Tell you what mate, I'll decide when my topic goes into the QQ post or when it needs to be it's own thing, and you can do the same for yours. Alright, cool. Cheers

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